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Can Microsoft Make the Immersive Sim Finacially Viable?

Confused Cheeseburger

Confused Cheeseburger

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Oct 27, 2017
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I love immervise sims. Like metroidvanias, I think the immersive is a perfect genre. And despite Dishonored 2 being one of my favorite games of all time, these games just don't sell enough for companies to take the risk in making them. Hitman does okay, Deus Ex seems banished to who knows when (especially with square golding those rights), Prey was a modest success, etc.

Arkane is the best modern immersive sim developer. They have the wind at their back with Microsoft's massive infusion of cash, and most crucially, Microsoft's arms race to put as much content on gamepass as possible.

In addition, The Initiative's talk about their Perfect Dark reboot seems to indicate that they are looking to bring Perfect Dark's inherent inmersive sim design back to the fore.

With these two pieces, I can see Microsoft cornering a market on a style of game that often suffers because of financial expectations. What do y'all think?

Hellraider said:
For anyone not sure about the term immersive sim, check this excellent video (as always) from Mark Brown

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YaBish

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Didn't CDPR just do this? I haven't played Cyberpunk, but it looked like an open world imsim
 
Kalor

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I think Gamepass is a good model for an immersion sim so maybe. Especially since they're something you could update other time with new areas and missions to keep people coming back. Similar to Hitman 2016.
 
Le Dude

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May 16, 2018
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I mean, one of the beautiful things about Gamepass is that Microsoft can invest in games partially with the intention to add in as part of their Gamepass repertoire.

Even if a game doesn't make back its budget in sales, they can use it to push their Gamepass subscriptions.
 
Glio

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Oct 27, 2017
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These types of games do not usually go very well commercially but they have "prestige". Games like Metroid Prime or Alien: Isolation seem to have similar targets, although they are not immersive sim.

Perhaps Microsoft can finance some to give the platform prestige, even if it is not very commercially viable.
 
Uzupedro

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UraMallas said:
Could you define immersive sim?
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Noppie said:
What is an immersive sim?
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I don't know if I would categorize it as a ''genre'', it's a design approach, mainly for RPGS, that emphasizes player agency, in which several cases you could do literally what you want to approach a situation.

OT: I don't know if this is something that can be easily changed, you have several gems, if not masterpieces, that fit this description but that weren't good comercially.
 
.exe

.exe

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Oct 25, 2017
22,241
It's entirely possible to borrow from immersive sims and make a game relatively popular. Like Bioshock, Far Cry 2 or Breath of the Wild. So, why not. I don't think MS is uniquely positioned for that though. It's just not a particularly mainstream appeal type of game in and of itself.
 
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Arn

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Oct 28, 2017
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That video was super interesting. Playing Hitman 2 at the moment and if I had a criticism it's that it's too easy to just follow the Mission Stories which hold your hand a lot. I guess I should turn them off and try to discover the answers independently.

Is Dishonoured 1 required to enjoy the story of the sequel?
 
Starlatine

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Oct 28, 2017
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Despite not selling well they usually get good critical reviews and word of mouth. So perhaps Gamepass is the best thing that could happen to the genre since they dont have to worry only about sales and how to make their games more commercially attractive. Time will tell. I would love for Arkane to go all out on what they do best without worrying if timmy and his grandma are going to buy it or not
 
bytesized

bytesized

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Hellraider said:
For anyone not sure about the term immersive sim, check this excellent video (as always) from Mark Brown

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Didn't know they were called immersive sims but, when I think about it, it might actually be my favorite genre of games to be honest. Deus Ex is still one of the best game experiences I can remember having and I'm incredibly engrossed by Pathologic 2 at the moment.

This video was great to make a list of all the next games I should be playing, many of them on gamepass.
 
OP
OP
Confused Cheeseburger

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Oct 27, 2017
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For me personally, I think immersive sims boil down to this:

You are given a collection of tools to use in a game space. This space is governed by a set of knowable rules, which is actually part of the fun. These rules and how they characterize that space and it's available avenues for completing tasks defines the simulation. TLDR, immesive sims are defined by clear tasks that can be accomplished in multiple ways by using various tools that can interact with gameplay systems in various, and often unscripted ways.


For example, rats in the first Dishonored will eat anything (That's a rule). They are usually found in the dark areas of an open level (that's part of the character of that space). Let's say you knock out a guard with a sleep dart and safely place him somewhere out of sight without killing him. (Effectively using tools to define your playstyle) If you place him out of sight, in an area in the gutter, he could be eaten by rats, and the game will count that as a lethal action you committed. Immersive sims are defined by these small interactions between player agency, tools, play space, rules, and system interaction.
 
YaBish

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Yuntu said:
I don't think its on that level tbh. But its the best thing we have in a while to maybe make more publishers try something like that again.

*looks at Deus Ex*
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Oh trust me I know. I bought Mankind Divided day 1, both Hitman games + 3 preordered, Prey day 1, and the Dishonored 2 collectors edition with the Corvo mask.

I love Immersive Sims.
 
Nameless

Nameless

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Oct 25, 2017
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Yeah I think it's safe there would've been more people celebrating and signal boosting the greatness of Prey had it launched on a subscription service with 15-20 million users.
 
Yuntu

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YaBish said:
Oh trust me I know. I bought Mankind Divided day 1, both Hitman games + 3 preordered, Prey day 1, and the Dishonored 2 collectors edition with the Corvo mask.

I love Immersive Sims.
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Call me foolish but I think western SE is dumb enough to over invest in a Deus Ex again at some point. Maybe this time it will pan out like Human Revolution and be a sleeper hit.


CliveLH said:
Just so I understand, are Breath of The Wild or Half Life Alyx immersive sims ?
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I think an important thing is multiple approaches for a clear goal and a clear set of rules, where as Breath goes more into the "do whatever you want and go where you want" or sandbox category. It certainly has design approaches that would fit into an immersive sim as well though.
 
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CloudsFromSpace

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Mar 8, 2018
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God I hope so. This is easily my favorite genre. The possibility of Perfect Dark being some kind of cross between Hitman/Prey/Mirror's edge has me just unbelievably excited.

CliveLH said:
Just so I understand, are Breath of The Wild or Half Life Alyx immersive sims ?
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I can't speak to Alyx since I haven't played it, but BOTW is probably the closest that a third person open world game has come to implementing immersive sim design principles. I wouldn't say it's exactly an immersive sim, but it's within the extended family.
 
Sotha_Sil

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CliveLH said:
Just so I understand, are Breath of The Wild or Half Life Alyx immersive sims ?
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No to BotW. The video linked earlier in the thread does a good job describing some game design features, but I personally think that the first person perspective and highly detailed worlds are also critical parts of the formula. BOTW, much like the Hitman series, has a lot of parallels to IS design but I wouldn't consider either to be an IS.
 
horkrux

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Oct 27, 2017
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We wouldn't even know if they became more viable or not. But they should definitely let Arkane continue to make them if they so desire, since they've been making amazing games and it would strengthen Xbox's lineup tremendously.
 
EvilBoris

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Oct 29, 2017
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This is the thing isn't it? Game Pass games aren't funded entirely by the typical sales cycle and marketing cycle of a game. So there's aren't the same needs to chase homegeny or strictly mass market, marketable products - something that is reaching critical mass as marketing costs for a big AAA game being sometimes greater than the cost of making the product.
 
OP
OP
Confused Cheeseburger

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jman1954goat

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Edit: I agree with many of the posters that responded to me. There is nothing objectively bad about the name immersive sim.

Personally I would like a diffrent name.
 
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Starlatine

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jman1954goat said:
I always thought immersive sim is the worst named genre in gaming.

That title dies not come close to describing the feelings playing those games.

I like immersive sims btw but the genre name is confusing and bad.
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people are trying to make "shlooter" a thing

it can always get worse
 
Mr.Deadshot

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Oct 27, 2017
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CliveLH said:
Just so I understand, are Breath of The Wild or Half Life Alyx immersive sims ?
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Like with all genres the definition is a bit fluid. Alyx isn't an immersive sim because there aren't much choices you can make. Breath of the Wild nails the definition more because there are often more than one solution to a problem.

Popular examples would be Dishonored, Prey, Bioshock and Deus Ex. Another great immersive sim and the most recent one is The Walking Dead: Saints & Sinners. Some people will argue that Bioshock isn't an immersive sim though.
 
Noema

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Danielle Riendeau, formerly of Waypoint, gave what I think is the best definition of the genre I've seen:

Any game with a sufficiently advanced physics engine / systems that interact with both player verbs, mechanics and level design. ​

So you need to have a very robust physics engine, but the player must also have the mechanical tools to engage in meaningful interactions with the world by using said physics engine and the level or world design has to also take advantage of that.

So a game like Prey, absolutely is an immersive sim, as well as the new Hitman games. Breath of the Wild would also be an immersive SIm, as well.

Like, using the Glue gun on Prey to reach places you're not supposed to reach for another 10 hours and the game accounting for that is the most Immersive Sim in the world. BOTW might be the immersivest sim ever made.

YaBish said:
Didn't CDPR just do this? I haven't played Cyberpunk, but it looked like an open world imsim
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It absolutely isn't. For starters, you need a robust physics engine that Cyberpunk lacks.

Cyberpunk is an rpg / shooter. It feels closer to Mass Effect mechanically than anything else. It only superficially resembles an immersive SIm because it's a cyberpunk first person game like Deus Ex.
 
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Morrowbie

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Oct 28, 2017
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MS would still need them to sell well or for them to be played lots on GamePass. It's not like Netflix doesn't cancel shows that don't get the viewers. They can't pump money into things that not enough people play, it would be better spent elsewhere (from a business perspective). Maybe with better marketing they can make them more mainstream, though.
 
Neuromancer

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Microsoft has closed or consolidated ~17 of their internal game studios over the years. I'm not sure I see them pouring a ton of money and resources into a studio known for making games in a niche genre. I like Arkane and I'd love to be proven wrong.

en.wikipedia.org

Xbox Game Studios - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Filipus

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Neuromancer said:
Microsoft has closed or consolidated ~17 of their internal game studios over the years. I'm not sure I see them pouring a ton of money and resources into a studio known for making games in a niche genre. I like Arkane and I'd love to be proven wrong.

en.wikipedia.org

Xbox Game Studios - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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This is not really fair considering the situation is widely different. Right now Gamepass can fund most Microsoft studios easily.
Even if they get the same budget as Dishonered 2 that would be a success, since that game didn't live to financial expectations (and probably got a smaller budget for Deathloop).
 
Necron

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After the success of Cyberpunk2077, I do hope Square-Enix gives Deus Ex another go at least.

No Idea, but I do hope Arkane has now less pressure to do what they love. We'll see...
 
Javier23

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jman1954goat said:
I always thought immersive sim is the worst named genre in gaming.

That title does not come close to describing the feelings playing those games.

I like immersive sims btw but the genre name is confusing and bad.
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It's all about feeling immersed in environments that are designed from the ground up to feel like the real world, so you can apply real world thinking to problems. Do consider that the name originates two decades ago. As graphics and sound have become more realistic, it's common to speak of how games are so immersive because of being cinematic and *looking* realistic. But the idea of the genre is to make them immersive by letting you interact with them, with appropriate systemic reactions, and to then let you take advantage of this interactivity to approach your objectives. Way more immersive to find your own solutions to a problem than to find *the* one scripted solution that the developers expect from you.
Necron said:
After the success of Cyberpunk2077, I do hope Square-Enix gives Deus Ex another go at least.

No Idea, but I do hope Arkane has now less pressure to do what they love. We'll see...
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There's very little about Cyberpunk that plays like Deus Ex, honestly, other than the choice & consequence system present mostly in dialogues that already was present in The Witcher games. That part was certainly always very immersive sim-like.
Noema said:
So a game like Prey, absolutely is an immersive sim, as well as the new Hitman games. Breath of the Wild would also be an immersive SIm, as well.
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This is splitting hairs and I absolutely adore the new Hitman trilogy, but I'm not sure they entirely qualify as immersive sims. Interactions with the environment, other than shooting at stuff, are all scripted ("press B to..."). Movement is also rather limited in general.
 
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jman1954goat

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Javier23 said:
It's all about feeling immersed in environments that are designed from the ground up to feel like the real world, so you can apply real world thinking to problems. Do consider that the name originates two decades ago. As graphics and sound have become more realistic, it's common to speak of how games are so immersive because of being cinematic and *looking* realistic. But the idea of the genre is to make them immersive by letting you interact with them, with appropriate systemic reactions, and to then let you take advantage of this interactivity to approach your objectives. Way more immersive to find your own solutions to a problem than to find *the* one scripted solution that the developers expect from you.
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I understand why the genre is named what it's named I just disagree.
 
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