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Can anyone explain what's happening in Venezuela? Dictator Maduro hated by majority but, Trump Admin / VP Pence and Bolsonaro backing opposition?

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Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Dingens said:
Not sure if this has been answered yet but... who is this guaido? What is his history? His policy stance? Why are people treating him like the messiah when only a few weeks ago his was an unknown nobody?
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People aren't treating like a messiah they're treating him as the legit interim president of Venezuela. All he has to do is keep the country functioning and get the elections going to install the next president by official channels. His denouncers on the left in the West are convinced he's the devil incarnate and a right wing puppet dictator based on nothing other than he reached out to the US, and other nations, to protect himself against a dictator known for ignoring the law and killing and imprisoning his rivals because he's a dictator but he's a left wing dictator so nothing to worry about people let's let Venezuela sort it out and by sorting out in reality means Gaida won't last 6 weeks.

What we do know is that he comes from a centre left party and light has been shone in his past. There's not much to go on but hardly proof he's as bad as his detractors think he is.
 
Harle

Harle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
220
Dingens said:
Not sure if this has been answered yet but... who is this guaido? What is his history? His policy stance? Why are people treating him like the messiah when only a few weeks ago his was an unknown nobody?
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As the oposition leaders are on jail or ran away the country because they were in danger, an "unknow nobody" had to appear someday.

I don't think he is the messiah or something, but he brought us hope, gotta give him credit for that.
 
FerDS

FerDS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
317
Caracas
First cargo of humanitarian aide arrived from Puerto Rico via air, so that's good news.

The blockade Maduro is trying to pull towards the aid might undo him.
 
FerDS

FerDS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
317
Caracas
Galactor said:
Guaido can meet and talk with journalists, do conferences and tweet. Dictators dont let their opponent do those things.

https://twitter.com/jguaido/status/1093299411533422600
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Many other opposition leaders have been either imprisoned, or invalidated politically, read about Leopoldo Lopez, Antonio Ledezma, Juan Requesens, Carlos Vecchio etc etc. Capriles Radonski, who was the most popular is not allowed to participate in any elections.

Guaidó was detained about two days after he became president and was let go in less than two hours, probably because of US mediation, please inform yourself before posting, specially about such delicate matters.

I've had to run for my life over been protesting pacifically way to many times for people that have no idea what is like to live here tell me that we live in a democracy because I guess I was not actually killed in the protests or something 🙄
 
Dragonelite

Dragonelite

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
544
Mr. X said:
Not sure if posted but Maduro indebted the country to China and Russia for about $100 billion.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/02/07...a-owed-debts-as-presidential-fight-rages.html
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What you are saying is not what the article is saying. Venezuela has a external debt of about 100 billion, where they own China around $20 billion and about $2.3 billion to Russia.

That probably means $77. 7 billion of debt to western countries and international institution.

Don't know enough about Guaido what are his plans, is he going to fire people at PDVSA who got their position because of nepotism, will he invest in neglected infrastructure of PDVSA or will he "let the market fix it" privatize everything.
 
Iceman

Iceman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
605
Alhambra, CA
Dragonelite said:
Don't know enough about Guaido what are his plans, is he going to fire people at PDVSA who got their position because of nepotism, will he invest in neglected infrastructure of PDVSA or will he "let the market fix it" privatize everything.
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My understanding: There is virtually no one left at PDVSA to fire. All of the knowledgeable workers left ages ago. They are pumping out less and less oil every year. It's an inept company understaffed with underqualified bodies with hard hats. They need to recruit back those that left.
 
Dragonelite

Dragonelite

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
544
Iceman said:
My understanding: There is virtually no one left at PDVSA to fire. All of the knowledgeable workers left ages ago. They are pumping out less and less oil every year. It's an inept company understaffed with underqualified bodies with hard hats. They need to recruit back those that left.
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So guaido needs to finds a way to get talent back. Has he said anything about selling pdvsa to China or the US? Giving a big share of PDVSA to China could help with debt relief or selling a big share to either Chinese or US might help get talent into PDVSA.

Also how much army support does guaido has, given that an army has a lot of influence in every country?
 
FerDS

FerDS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
317
Caracas
Dragonelite said:
So guaido needs to finds a way to get talent back. Has he said anything about selling pdvsa to China or the US? Giving a big share of PDVSA to China could help with debt relief or selling a big share to either Chinese or US might help get talent into PDVSA.

Also how much army support does guaido has, given that an army has a lot of influence in every country?
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He has already chosen a new president for Pdvsa, an oil engineer and professor at one of Venezuela's top universities. There are no plans to sell Pdvsa but there will be of course a lot of international investment both in pdvsa and other industries hat have been controlled by the government since Chavez took over.

He presented a plan for the recovery of the country in Central University of Venezuela, said plan has been in the works in the National Assembly since 2015. It goes over the need to first get help (which is where the humanitarian aid comes from). And then continue the subsidies the government has offered to the people while working on getting a productive economy and allowing for the independence of said subsidies.

It is pretty obvious that some countries (and no, it's not just the US) are going to benefit from this proposed change as they will be allowed to participate in Venezuela's multiple natural riches industries, personally as long as there are regulations for international companies I think this is the best way forward
 
poklane

poklane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,936
the Netherlands
More and more humanitarian aid arriving in the Colombian city Cúcuta, lets see what happens when they actually try to deliver it to the Venezuelan people though.
 
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Dingens said:
Not sure if this has been answered yet but... who is this guaido? What is his history? His policy stance? Why are people treating him like the messiah when only a few weeks ago his was an unknown nobody?
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He appears to be a boring standard center-left guy. He's basically the Speaker of the House for Venezuela's legislature and was elected in early January. The person in that position is supposed to become Interim President in the event the Presidency is vacant. Given that Maduro rigged his elections and created a puppet parallel congress, the claim is that he should become President based on the constitution.

Clearly there were ongoing discussions with the legislature and other parties before all this went down, it's very much coordinated. The Wiki page summary at the top is a good overview- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Assembly_(Venezuela)

The National Assembly (Spanish: Asamblea Nacional) is the de jure legislature for Venezuela that was first elected in 2000. The National Assembly has been rendered ceremonial since the introduction of the Constituent Assembly in 2017. It is an unicameral body made up of a variable number of members, who were elected by a "universal, direct, personal, and secret" vote partly by direct election in state-based voting districts, and partly on a state-based party-list proportional representation system. The number of seats is constant, each state and the Capital district elected three representatives plus the result of dividing the state population by 1.1% of the total population of the country.[1] Three seats are reserved for representatives of Venezuela's indigenous peoples and elected separately by all citizens, not just those with indigenous backgrounds. For the 2010-2015 period the number of seats was 165.[2] All deputies serve five-year terms. The National Assembly meets in the Federal Legislative Palace in Venezuela's capital, Caracas.

In the midst of the ongoing constitutional crisis, a different body, the Constituent Assembly was elected in 2017, with the intent of re-writing the Venezuelan Constitution. From that point forward, the two legislatures have operated in parallel, with the National Assembly forming the primary opposition to president Nicolás Maduro, and with the Constituent Assembly being his primary supporters.

On 23 January 2019, Juan Guaidó declared himself acting president, citing clauses of the 1999 Venezuelan constitution and his majority in the National Assembly.[3] The National Assembly has since supported Guaidó and has become part of his transitional government.
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The last election for the actual congress was in 2015 and occurred prior to Maduro's power grab, which is why they're treated as legitimate representatives.
Dragonelite said:
So guaido needs to finds a way to get talent back. Has he said anything about selling pdvsa to China or the US? Giving a big share of PDVSA to China could help with debt relief or selling a big share to either Chinese or US might help get talent into PDVSA.

Also how much army support does guaido has, given that an army has a lot of influence in every country?
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The tricky part is that the economy is going to need foreign support to help undo what Chavez did, but also needs to avoid becoming a vassal state again, dependent on foreign assistance instead of a country relying on temporary help while it heals its broken legs. It needs to be a temporary patch in teh short-medium term, not a long term arrangement. The issue (as we've seen with Chavez/Maduro) is that corruption will easily make someone very happy with a long term arrangement.
 
Commedieu

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
News to me, might be news to you.

China & Russia backed Ole`Duro -- in exchange they reaped the benefits of cheaper fuel and a presence there. Its no wonder why America is backing the new person with that in mind. They still owe China & Russia billions.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/07/ven...a-owed-debts-as-presidential-fight-rages.html

  • China and Russia have kept Venezuela afloat by lending billions to the economically crippled petrostate, sometimes with cheap oil thrown in as a sweetener for the two creditors.
    [*]Those deals were struck with strongman Nicolas Maduro, whose leadership is facing a serious challenge from Juan Guaido, and it's not clear what happens to that debt if Maduro is kicked out of office.
    [*]Venezuela is indebted to external creditors by a total of something close to $100 billion.
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BigWinnie1

BigWinnie1

Banned
Feb 19, 2018
2,757
Commedieu said:
News to me, might be news to you.

China & Russia backed Ole`Duro -- in exchange they reaped the benefits of cheaper fuel and a presence there. Its no wonder why America is backing the new person with that in mind. They still owe China & Russia billions.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/07/ven...a-owed-debts-as-presidential-fight-rages.html
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Basically once we get them up and running as a diversified Economy not beholden to China and Russia it will almost cripple those governments because China especially depends on the cheap oil ( They are getting that shit super cheap)
 
Ravic

Ravic

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
97
User Banned (Duration Pending): Endorsing fascism. User in Junior phase.
What's happening in Venezuela is the result of a south america leftist government running amok.

It almost happened in Brazil, but thank god we elected Bolsonaro.
 
clemenx

clemenx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
476
Venezuela
nomis

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
anyone in this thread who supports ANY u.s. action in venezuela with elliot fucking abrams as special envoy needs to read what that genocidal fuck helped do and tried to cover up in guatemala and el salvador
 
jts

jts

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,018
bricewgilbert said:
You fucking rubes. Will we ever learn? Congrats on falling for more right wing propaganda. Around and around we go.

https://medium.com/@justin.emery/the-tienditas-bridge-blockade-f240728fe5f7
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He has only shown that the easily removable fencing was there. The containers and the oil tanker are new, as far as he shows. And are on the Venezuelan side. If the bridge was already blocked, why did Venezuela blocked it further? Because what's been said still remains true. They are trying to block aid coming from it. The great "gotcha" in that article here is that at least some of the press jumped the gun and assumed the bridge was open prior to that, when in fact it didn't seem to be, which, even though it doesn't invalidate that the precarious fencing could be easily overcome, means he got that technicality so lets latch on that to invalidate all the rest and somehow make Maduro not a Russia & China backed scum who would rather see his people die than surrender his illegitimate power which he's been using to make their life a living hell.
 

ChippyTurtle

Banned
Oct 13, 2018
4,773
If Venezuela wanted to, it could just remove the blockade and open the bridge. It's a fully complete bridge. There's also another bridge nearby that aid could go over. But...I think allowing the aid to enter the custody of Maduro's forces is probably unacceptable and the main reason why everyone is stalled.

Aid is being given out on the Columbian side, hopefully stuff can cross individually.
 
bricewgilbert

bricewgilbert

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
868
WA, USA
nomis said:
anyone in this thread who supports ANY u.s. action in venezuela with elliot fucking abrams as special envoy needs to read what that genocidal fuck helped do and tried to cover up in guatemala and el salvador
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They really don't get it. They just don't. It's fucking amazing. Like hooolllly shit. I feel like i'm in a movie where i'm screaming a the top of my lungs about something terrible that has happened before and is currently happening to everyone but no one else sees it or believes me.
 
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
bricewgilbert said:
They really don't get it. They just don't. It's fucking amazing. Like hooolllly shit. I feel like i'm in a movie where i'm screaming a the top of my lungs about something terrible that has happened before and is currently happening to everyone but no one else sees it or believes me.
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Most of us are not in support of military action based on the current circumstances. It would be absolutely ridiculous to do so. Everything so far appears to be aimed at leveraging various things to provide pressure in an attempt to get the Venezuelan military to flip on Maduro.

I know that feeling you describe from Iraq. Iraq was pre-planned for years before Bush even took office by Cheney, Rumsfeld and co. This isn't that. The circumstances escalating the situation in Venezuela are not being created by the White House with evidence needing to be manufactured because the internal CIA people were against it and had to be overruled. They are specific to the refugee crisis created by the economic crisis, Maduro taking power in a coup and holding sham elections, and the democratically elected Assembly nearing the end of their terms and thus their claim to a mandate. (2015 elections = They've got 1 or 2 years left before the terms expire.) Maduro is not suddenly going to become a competent leader, and the circumstances are all time sensitive where you have collective action now, or you have none at all.
 
nomis

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
Kirblar said:
Most of us are not in support of military action based on the current circumstances. It would be absolutely ridiculous to do so. Everything so far appears to be aimed at leveraging various things to provide pressure in an attempt to get the Venezuelan military to flip on Maduro.

I know that feeling you describe from Iraq. Iraq was pre-planned for years before Bush even took office by Cheney, Rumsfeld and co. This isn't that. The circumstances escalating the situation in Venezuela are not being created by the White House with evidence needing to be manufactured because the internal CIA people were against it and had to be overruled. They are specific to the refugee crisis created by the economic crisis, Maduro taking power in a coup and holding sham elections, and the democratically elected Assembly nearing the end of their terms and thus their claim to a mandate. (2015 elections = They've got 1 or 2 years left before the terms expire.) Maduro is not suddenly going to become a competent leader, and the circumstances are all time sensitive where you have collective action now, or you have none at all.
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maduro is not singularly capable of screwing up venezuela this badly, the U.S. helped thrust them into their current economic crisis. to argue otherwise is pure sophistry.

it's like theres a serial killer who has killed a dozen people of the same profile in the same neighbourhood with the same murder weapon, and when another person shows up dead the morning after that serial killer ate dinner with them, you're the one arguing there's no proof they did it

the most salient part of your post is when you mention iraq

on this day in 1963 the U.S. backed a coup against the iraqi leader, resulting in saddams rise to power
 
Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
bricewgilbert said:
They really don't get it. They just don't. It's fucking amazing. Like hooolllly shit. I feel like i'm in a movie where i'm screaming a the top of my lungs about something terrible that has happened before and is currently happening to everyone but no one else sees it or believes me.
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No-one disagreeing with you wants the US to intervene, because like you said it'd be a cluster fuck. Listen to people, rather than putting them in boxes and thinking they're the enemy because they disagree with you. A lot of the conflict in this thread isn't that America is preparing a coup, we know they have signs of doing that and nobody is happy with that development its that many think it's already Gulf War 3 there and prefer the status quo, which makes Venezuela a puppet state for either Russia, China or both with a dictator who's known for killing protesters and others who they view as sub-human and using starvation as a weapon against innocent people.

I agree, don't take everything at face value with the US, however, don't take what Maduro says either. He's a dictator, just because he's on the left does not mean he's right.
 
nomis

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
Ichthyosaurus said:
No-one disagreeing with you wants the US to intervene, because like you said it'd be a cluster fuck. Listen to people, rather than putting them in boxes and thinking they're the enemy because they disagree with you. A lot of the conflict in this thread isn't that America is preparing a coup, we know they have signs of doing that and nobody is happy with that development its that many think it's already Gulf War 3 there and prefer the status quo, which makes Venezuela a puppet state for either Russia, China or both with a dictator who's known for killing protesters and others who they view as sub-human and using starvation as a weapon against innocent people.

I agree, don't take everything at face value with the US, however, don't take what Maduro says either. He's a dictator, just because he's on the left does not mean he's right.
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backing guaido was always part of a larger strategy for venezuela, which is why it is and was so horrifying to see era posters vehemently defending the u.s. propping him up

you can't choose you own adventure with this shit, it doesn't end with guaido and people should have known that weeks ago when they were cheering that he was being backed by trump and trudeau et al
 
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
nomis said:
maduro is not singularly capable of screwing up venezuela this badly, the U.S. helped thrust them into their current economic crisis. to argue otherwise is pure sophistry.

it's like theres a serial killer who has killed a dozen people of the same profile in the same neighbourhood with the same murder weapon, and when another person shows up dead the morning after that serial killer ate dinner with them, you're the one arguing there's no proof they did it

the most salient part of your post is when you mention iraq

on this day in 1963 the U.S. backed a coup against the iraqi leader, resulting in saddams rise to power
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To argue that the US did this to them is to buy into Chavez/Maduro state propaganda and ignore all actual evidence of why this is happening there in favor of a conspiracy theory.
 
Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
nomis said:
backing guaido was always part of a larger strategy for venezuela, which is why it is and was so horrifying to see era posters vehemently defending the u.s. propping him up

you can't choose you own adventure with this shit, it doesn't end with guaido and people should have known that weeks ago when they were cheering that he was being backed by trump and trudeau et al
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I don't see you having this problem with Russia or China, what did they do to get your support? You'd prefer Venezuela to be their vassal state? I'd prefer Venezuela be free on its own terms. They're entrenched in this to a greater degree than America ever was. All sides are terrible, no doubt, but I'm willing to admit I'm doing it as a last resort. But your posts frame the crisis as if the only foreign state interfering with a bad past is America. Which is not true.

Where's the concern for Russia's mercenary force or their nuclear capable planes?
 
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nomis

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
Ichthyosaurus said:
I don't see you having this problem with Russia or China, what did they do to get your support? You'd prefer Venezuela to be their vassal state? I'd prefer Venezuela be free on its own terms.
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LMAO you very nearly tell on yourself and then change the dichotomy

you want Venezuela to be America's vassal state
 
nomis

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
Kirblar said:
To argue that the US did this to them is to buy into Chavez/Maduro state propaganda and ignore all actual evidence of why this is happening there in favor of a conspiracy theory.
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i would say "the history books will prove you wrong and me right" except every day from now you will be proven more wrong and your own personal definition of "maduro state propaganda" will need to get broader

"listen to venezuelans!! they hate maduro!" i am told in unison

here is a picture of members of guaidos party

960X540_Guaido%E2%80%99s-Opposition.jpg


and now of the congress members backing maduro

960X540_Maduro%E2%80%99s-Chavista-Constituent-Assembly.jpg


this entire power struggle is one of white and class supremacy. the maduro government has made life hellish for the darker skinned poorer majority, yet they march in the streets for him anyways because they prefer him to apartheid.
 
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Piecake

Piecake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,298
nomis said:
i would say "the history books will prove you wrong and me right" except every day from now you will be proven more wrong and your own personal definition of "maduro state propaganda" will need to get broader

"listen to venezuelans!! they hate maduro!" i am told in unison

here is a picture of members of guaidos party

960X540_Guaido%E2%80%99s-Opposition.jpg


and now of the congress members backing maduro

960X540_Maduro%E2%80%99s-Chavista-Constituent-Assembly.jpg


this entire power struggle is one of white and class supremacy. the maduro government has made life hellish for the darker skinned poorer majority, yet they march in the streets for him anyways because they prefer him to apartheid.
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How exactly does that support your claim that America played a meaningful role in Venezuela's situation right now?
 
Kirblar

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
nomis said:
i would say "the history books will prove you wrong and me right" except every day from now you will be proven more wrong and your own personal definition of "maduro state propaganda" will need to get broader

"listen to venezuelans!! they hate maduro!" i am told in unison

here is a picture of members of guaidos party

960X540_Guaido%E2%80%99s-Opposition.jpg


and now of the congress members backing maduro

960X540_Maduro%E2%80%99s-Chavista-Constituent-Assembly.jpg


this entire power struggle is one of white and class supremacy. the maduro government has made life hellish for the darker skinned poorer majority, yet they march in the streets for him anyways because they prefer him to apartheid.
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So, when you go to that first image, you get "gregpalast.com" as a link.

"Greg Palast Venezuela" gets you this link to - "Chavez, Maduro and Venezuela: The story they don't want you to read"

The contents of which I'm going to spoiler because they're utter horseshit.
Venezuelan president Nicholás Maduro wrote on Op Ed published in the New York Times yesterday calling for peace.

As someone who knows president Nicholás Maduro, Hugo Chavez' successor, (and Maduro's opponents), I can say that I've never met a head of state (and I've met many) who absolutely gives a real shit about the average working person of his nation.

Venezuela is Occupy Wall Street on its head: the 1% are out in the street, violently hoping to overthrow the government elected by working people. Are the Kochs involved?
Followed by all sorts of other links to more conspiratorial propaganda about how Maduro and Chavez are great wonderful people and the US Media isn't showing you the REAL truth.

And currently on his front page is an article claiming that this is all about "White Supremacy" and not starving people, mass exodus of refugees, and a failing economy as Venezuela's become a vassal state propped up by other parties.

Congratulations, you've managed to source information from someone who appears to be the Alex Jones of the left, snowing gullible lefties into believing that horrific dictators are actually benevolent socialists who would only be doing better if it weren't for the evil *insert scapegoat here*.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
Ichthyosaurus said:
I don't see you having this problem with Russia or China, what did they do to get your support? You'd prefer Venezuela to be their vassal state? I'd prefer Venezuela be free on its own terms. They're entrenched in this to a greater degree than America ever was. All sides are terrible, no doubt, but I'm willing to admit I'm doing it as a last resort. But your posts frame the crisis as if the only foreign state interfering with a bad past is America. Which is not true.

Where's the concern for Russia's mercenary force or their nuclear capable planes?
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I find this to be slightly funny. When we have the 10 page thread on Russian interference and Ukraine and someone (like me) points out the double standards of Americans criticizing the Russians regarding interference and invading other countries, we are asked to shut up because it's whataboutism and not the time to talk about American misdeeds.

Now we have a thread about American interference in Venezuela and folks are asking, but why are you guys not asking about Russia? Russia, Russia, Russia. Russia is bad. Look at Russia. lol.

nomis said:
this entire power struggle is one of white and class supremacy. the maduro government has made life hellish for the darker skinned poorer majority, yet they march in the streets for him anyways because they prefer him to apartheid.
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Agree.
 
Sal_S

Sal_S

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,476
Hamilton
I don't know about you guys, but I rather my friends and family get killed by the Venezuelan army than a hypothetical US army.
 
Ichthyosaurus

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
nomis said:
LMAO you very nearly tell on yourself and then change the dichotomy

you want Venezuela to be America's vassal state
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I'm dumb founded by the stupidity here. Not only are you wrong, but you're so desperate for an evil enemy to fight, you twist my words into a non-existent straw man just for a "gotcha." The lack of self awareness is staggering, or is that you just don't care about anything as long as you get to score political points against America?

This is not a football game, peoples lives are on the line.

anamika said:
I find this to be slightly funny. When we have the 10 page thread on Russian interference and Ukraine and someone (like me) points out the double standards of Americans criticizing the Russians regarding interference and invading other countries, we are asked to shut up because it's whataboutism and not the time to talk about American misdeeds.
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Can you link me these threads? No-one is asking you to shut up about criticising the US, on many aspects I'm sure we'd agree - which I've gone over throughly in my posts in this thread but some of you want to paint everything as a black and white world, as if the only bad actor relevant to any conversation with foreign problems is the US.

You do realise I've condemned both actions when the US does it and Russia, right? I find it strange that you don't seem to have a problem with the mythos of these powerful, malicious countries but that since the US has done that that the actions themselves it's ok, despite the fact the Russians are a right wing dystopia messing up various nations (UK, Ukraine, Venezuela, Syria etc), encouraging and supporting fascism to a degree not seen in decades. Do you like having Trump as president?

Now we have a thread about American interference in Venezuela and folks are asking, but why are you guys not asking about Russia? Russia, Russia, Russia. Russia is bad. Look at Russia. lol.
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Because Russia is a big player in this, why wouldn't we? I'd be saying the same if everyone completely ignored the US involvement. Do you think Russia are the good guys here? This ignores the fact it's an international chess board on both sides, like with Syria. It's not like Russia and the US are the only nations interfering.

How are you defining "interference" btw?
 
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FerDS

FerDS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
317
Caracas
Oh great, we are back to let's explain what's happening in Venezuela without having any idea what the fuck I'm talking about, awesome
 
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