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Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,792
Combine it with banning specific hardware units or IPs and we got a deal.

Banning IP's would be absolutely stupid. Most home internet connections have dynamic IP's anyway, in a lot of cases simply restarting the modem will assign you a new IP. And then some random dude completely unrelated to you gets assigned your old, banned IP.
 

Shadow

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,126
This is the only way to get rid of cheaters. People will complain, but it's the only way you can battle something that is also using kernel level drivers. It's practically impossible otherwise. No way around it. Only other options is to have cheaters or make a separate server that allows cheaters. ARK does this actually, you can launch it without installing easy anti-cheat and makes it so you can only join servers that have no protection.

The DRM stuff that companies do is far worse, which actually impacts your PC by making the game stutter and slower and potentially have the similar exploit/privacy problem. Usually these anti-cheats have almost no affect on performance.
 

Issen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,820
I knew this was gonna be a thing as soon as they made their hilarious "gamers rise up" threat.

I'm so glad I don't give a shit about any of these esports titles.
 

Sprat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,684
England
Banning IP's would be absolutely stupid. Most home internet connections have dynamic IP's anyway, in a lot of cases simply restarting the modem will assign you a new IP. And then some random dude completely unrelated to you gets assigned your old, banned IP.
The only way is to ban the actual hardware id but that would probably need platform holders

And could still end up making someone unrelated suffer when the hardware is sold /replaced
 

Snarfington

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,929
This is good news for me playing Warzone on console. It's been out of hand too long, and sorry PC lot if you're unhappy, but this is a "fuck around -> find out" situation and it's a consequence of the community being filled with too many assholes trying to ruin peoples' fun.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,691
I knew this was gonna be a thing as soon as they made their hilarious "gamers rise up" threat.

I'm so glad I don't give a shit about any of these esports titles.

...I don't think most people think of esports when they think of Warzone lol

Yeah they exist but 99% of players don't care lol
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,907
Germany
Valorant was really ahead of the curve here. Kernel Level anti-cheat is probably here tostada and the future for PC MP.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
Haha. Glad I don't play this trash. Kernel level drivers for stuff like this can fuck off into the sun.
Just out of curioustiy, what do you mean is trash? The game (CoD: Warzone) itself or the solution of using kernel level drivers in an attempt to stop people from cheating in the game? If you mean that its trash using kernel level drivers to stop cheating in the game, do we how is the situation being handled with other PC games in comparision that have (or had) many cheaters? Is there an equal or better way to stop people from cheating (besides constantly keep banning people, which is already being done as well in CoD: Warzone, if i am not mistaken?) without using kernel level drivers? Its been many years since i actively played on PC, so unfortunately i havnt followed how things are on PC in terms on anti-cheats, thats why i am wondering about it :)


Not if you are on console.
Just out of curiousity, do we know which solution(s) that is being used on consoles in comparsion? Since developers have kernel access on consoles, couldnt they be doing the same there?
 

stan423321

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,676
Just out of curiousity, do we know which solution(s) that is being used on consoles in comparsion? Since developers have kernel access on consoles, couldnt they be doing the same there?
They actually really don't have kernel access on consoles anymore. Some systems run games on "kernel level" hardware-wise, but then put the actual kernel on hypervisor level or something.

Since consoles are so locked down, most games for them don't really implement any separate on-device anti-cheat themselves, just like they delegate DRM to the system. The exception is the biggest games on compromised consoles, e.g. late Wii and PS3 titles from first parties and Activision, but they usually just look for signs of any unauthorized modifications and not cheats or piracy in particular.
 

Spence

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,119
Sweden
Wonder if you are affected if you want to play singleplayer or zombies, I don't play warzone and don't really want this potential vulnerability.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
This is the only way to get rid of cheaters. People will complain, but it's the only way you can battle something that is also using kernel level drivers. It's practically impossible otherwise. No way around it. Only other options is to have cheaters or make a separate server that allows cheaters. ARK does this actually, you can launch it without installing easy anti-cheat and makes it so you can only join servers that have no protection.

The DRM stuff that companies do is far worse, which actually impacts your PC by making the game stutter and slower and potentially have the similar exploit/privacy problem. Usually these anti-cheats have almost no affect on performance.
Yeah, I feel like the only people up in arms about this are cheaters.

It's no more a 'potential vulnerability' than any other app you install on your computer.
 

Edward

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
5,114
Valorant was really ahead of the curve here. Kernel Level anti-cheat is probably here tostada and the future for PC MP.
Valorant wasn't the first or ahead of the curve and it still didn't solve it's cheater issue. They had to make a statement this year regarding an influx of a bunch of cheaters.

Apex and BF1 are classic examples of kernal level anti-cheat that have been rampant with cheaters. I'm not against kernal level anti-cheat software if it actually worked but it clearly doesn't and i haven't seen any data showing it does more against cheaters than non-kernal level acess anti-cheat software.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,636
Valorant wasn't the first or ahead of the curve and it still didn't solve it's cheater issue. They had to make a statement this year regarding an influx of a bunch of cheaters.

Apex and BF1 are classic examples of kernal level anti-cheat that have been rampant with cheaters. I'm not against kernal level anti-cheat software if it actually worked but it clearly doesn't and i haven't seen any data showing it does more against cheaters than non-kernal level acess anti-cheat software.
The way Valorant does it is different though.
Apex, Siege, Battlefield all have cheating issues despite their kernel level anti cheat. The difference for Valorant comes with the anti cheat being turned on with OS, so an exploit can't be activated before the anti cheat is activated. Whereas for Easy Anti cheat and battleye you can turn on an exploit before the anti cheat is even active.

That said the future of anti cheat is probably an AI assisted solution, whether it also needs kernel level access or not that we'll see.
 
Dec 9, 2019
262
This pisses me off, I have to dual-boot just for those games with kernel-level drivers. No way I'm gonna install this third party shit spook on my productive system.
 

Edward

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
5,114
The way Valorant does it is different though.
Apex, Siege, Battlefield all have cheating issues despite their kernel level anti cheat. The difference for Valorant comes with the anti cheat being turned on with OS, so an exploit can't be activated before the anti cheat is activated. Whereas for Easy Anti cheat and battleye you can turn on an exploit before the anti cheat is even active.

That said the future of anti cheat is probably an AI assisted solution, whether it also needs kernel level access or not that we'll see.
Valorant does all that but still has a problem.

It's why i won't install it and it's why i dual boot the very few games that i play that have it.
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
This pisses me off, I have to dual-boot just for those games with kernel-level drivers. No way I'm gonna install this third party shit spook on my productive system.

Valorant does all that but still has a problem.

It's why i won't install it and it's why i dual boot the very few games that i play that have it.
If you're that paranoid about security, you should be dual booting every single game that receives data over a network from other users. They represent a much more substantial threat than a regularly updated kernel module. That's just a factually true statement.

Edit: actually, dual booting doesn't even make any sense. If one OS gets compromised via a kernel exploit, it will take over all your other installed OS too.
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,645
They actually really don't have kernel access on consoles anymore. Some systems run games on "kernel level" hardware-wise, but then put the actual kernel on hypervisor level or something.

Since consoles are so locked down, most games for them don't really implement any separate on-device anti-cheat themselves, just like they delegate DRM to the system. The exception is the biggest games on compromised consoles, e.g. late Wii and PS3 titles from first parties and Activision, but they usually just look for signs of any unauthorized modifications and not cheats or piracy in particular.
Ah ok, i see. That makes sense, otherwise it would probably be easier to hack the system (people could get a development kit and have an easier time to look for exploits, i would guess). I didnt think about that. I was just thinking when a console is hacked, these hacks can sometimes give kernel access, and i thought that maybe official game developers already had the same access as this without hacking the system.

And yeah, as you mention, the DRM system on a console might in several of cases be enough to stop people from cheating online, thats true.

Thanks for the info! :)
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
992
New Zealand
Banning IP's would be absolutely stupid. Most home internet connections have dynamic IP's anyway, in a lot of cases simply restarting the modem will assign you a new IP. And then some random dude completely unrelated to you gets assigned your old, banned IP.
That's not the only problem, nowadays you have a thing call CGNAT that you get typically with mobile connections and services like Starlink. If you're using CGNAT, you don't even have your own IPv4 address, you're sharing it with many other people on the same node at the same time. Banning such an address would involve banning a whole ISP node.