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RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,648
It's understandable if you've never been through it with anyone, but I'd suggest looking into addiction a bit. Likely if this man was coming in under the influence, he was in great pain getting no enjoyment from what he was doing. Eventually you come to realize how tragic/sad that teacher being drunk in class is as opposed to putting judgement on it.
I don't think it has to be a personal character judgement against the guy suffering from addiction to say he should not have been operating in a faculty position while struggling from those issues
How the hell is @Vyrak banned is this real ERA? Fucking disgusting.
I don't want to derail the thread, and I apologize for commenting on it when issues are expected to be dealt with via PM, but the guy wasn't posting for a good faith back and forth, he was straight up attacking another member. It shouldn't matter if it's a mod or not, we're all here together and deserve some level of decency.
 

HammerFace

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,227
How the hell is Vyrak banned is this real ERA? Fucking disgusting.

Dude speaks out against how ridiculous the shade is some of you have thrown here a mod included and then gets banned? Did I miss a post where he went over the line? Like what the hell. Unless I totally missed something this is real shades of the old place shameful.


He got banned because he actually went off the rails. I don't know if you saw all of his posts, but he started pushing the goal post of his argument while getting more aggressive.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,135
I don't want to derail the thread, but the guy wasn't posting for a good faith back and forth, he was straight up attacking another member. It shouldn't matter if it's a mod or not, we're all here together and deserve some level of decency.
I guess I can see that to an extent, that said I've seen other threads where people got far more charitable treatment for getting heated like that. Also it's hard to not sneer at it a bit given how little decency some people gave to that highschool student.
He got banned because he actually went off the rails. I don't know if you saw all of his posts, but he started pushing the goal post of his argument while getting more aggressive.
I will concede it's perfectly possible that I missed the post that got him banned I scanned through the thread if any one had the reason for ban attached for it but didn't see that.
------------
Frankly again I find it appalling how some people argued in here(and continue to do so), ignoring the fact how the power dynamic between a school and a student generally works out(hint: the school holds significantly more power over the student especially in disadvantaging them in ways that aren't easy to prove.) The rhetoric people employed here wouldn't fly(at least I hope it wouldn't) if this was about sexual abuse or racism at the workplace or similarly a more charged issue.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
7,466
He got banned because he actually went off the rails. I don't know if you saw all of his posts, but he started pushing the goal post of his argument while getting more aggressive.
Referring to everyone he disagreed with as "cancer" was probably a bad move. Especially coming on the heels of being asked multiple times to tone it down. Whining about someone getting banned when they were given multiple chances to be more civil is misguided. No one told him he couldnt hold his opinion that what the girl did was heroic/virtuous.
 

Maolfunction

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,871
Like, even if your position is that the education system gets shit all in terms of support and that most educators are overworked, that still doesn't give your position that the girl should be aware of all of these things (at 18) and be sympathetic to the education system any credence. Her life experiences (and life experiences of her class) are being directly affected by a shitty system that didn't look out for them.

If your position is, well, can you blame the teacher for being drunk, just look at the mess the education system is, that's not a valid point. You don't punish the kids and their educational futures by being drunk constantly in class. If you're an overworked advisor, you don't push smart kids away with no explanation to only focus on kids with special needs. You still talk to them and explain your situation, which this student clearly never got.

If your instinct is to protect the school system because the school system isn't really being funded well, that's fine, but don't use it to dismiss a student whose life for 4 years was totally shit on by an incompetent administration that didn't know how to meet her needs. You can easily be empathetic for the student and agree that the school failed her and concurrently agree that the education system in America is overburdened and probably affecting kids negatively by not being able to meet every kid's needs.
 

HammerFace

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,227
Referring to everyone he disagreed with as "cancer" was probably a bad move. Especially coming on the heels of being asked multiple times to tone it down. Whining about someone getting banned when they were given multiple chances to be more civil is misguided. No one told him he couldnt hold his opinion that what the girl did was heroic/virtuous.

Stop exaggerating. He didn't call anyone cancer. Yes he went way overboard and should've stopped after Matt disengaged, but he didn't and know he was rightfully banned
 

foggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,972
Lmao what even is this thread?

I guess we know who the teachers and hall monitors are.
 

Threadkular

Member
Dec 29, 2017
2,414
I don't think it has to be a personal character judgement against the guy suffering from addiction to say he should not have been operating in a faculty position while struggling from those issues

I agree with you in theory... but an addict/alcoholic diagnosing him/herself and having that self awareness (i.e. not being in denial) is pretty unrealistic. I work in a white collar office environment and they didn't prepare us in school for just how much alcohol/substance issues would come up around the workplace. It's quite disorienting/disassociating when you first learn of someone having a problem that you were completely unaware of. But yes it particularly sucks when it happens around kids.

And it makes sense for the valedictorian to not get it. It's a complicated issue.
 
Last edited:

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Is this your opinion of everyone suffering through a disease? Should no one with a disease that may affect their work continue to work?
I mean uh... If this disease is alcoholism, and the work involved is teaching kids... absolutely yes, they should stop going to work until that gets sorted out.
 

Holundrian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,135
Should someone with nausea and headaches be forbidden from operating heavy machinery??
Don't expect a reply didn't get one for mine.
Is this your opinion of everyone suffering through a disease? Should no one with a disease that may affect their work continue to work?
It's my opinion if your work affects other people. Do you want a doctor operating on you that has flu? Do you want your bus driver be impaired by a disease while driving???
Like why is this even a question? On one hand you say treat alcoholism seriously as a real disease but when I apply these standards you put them to question...

If the work you do in the end only affects you do what you want I don't care. But if you want sympathy because you can't get your shit together and are willing to fuck over children in the process because it's "just" their highschool education... get the fuck out with that crap.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Yes and that's 100 percent on the admin to identify and make happen.
I don't agree with the 100 percent part, though yes, they should have stepped in much sooner for sure. That teacher is an adult and still responsible for his actions too, and the student was absolutely not out of line to call him out.
 

HammerFace

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,227
it absolutely is pedantic. The point is that he was being insulting. There is nothing that can possibly be gained by calling someone's opinion cancer or idiotic other than to antagonize them.

Sure. And I acknowledged that he was being aggressive and going overboard, to exaggerate that he was calling everyone cancer when he wasn't is false. Reaper has been calling this student an idiot, a coward, and other bullshit. Thats not needed, nor is exaggerating something about another poster.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
One mod doubted the sincerity of her speech, and another poster was stupid enough to imply she was as crazy as Trump supporters. At least that last one is banned.

Well two people actually compared her graduating class to Trump.

Only one is gone and that was also for comparing having an abortion to teaching while drunk and getting arrested in class for it
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Sure. And I acknowledged that he was being aggressive and going overboard, to exaggerate that he was calling everyone cancer when he wasn't is false. Reaper has been calling this student an idiot, a coward, and other bullshit. Thats not needed, nor is exaggerating something about another poster.

If you have to acknowledge that your distinction is "pedantic," then no, the original poster was not exaggerating in the sense that you claim needs to be "called out."

I don't agree with that dude about the girl being "not bright" or whatever at all, but seeking retribution by sifting through his posts to take words in the most disingenuously literal ways possible isn't conducive to a good conversation.
 

HammerFace

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,227
If you have to acknowledge that your distinction is "pedantic," then no, the original poster was not exaggerating in the sense that you claim needs to be "called out."


Nah. I acknowledge that its pedantic because it annoys me when people act pedantically and never own up to it. But I'll keep on going as I want thanks though.
 

Zeel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,163
We need to have a discussion about these clickbait titles, you won't believe what happens next!
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,308
Can y'all stop bickering about pedantry and meta-commentary please
 

Deleted member 6215

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,087
We have no idea about the reality of anything she said. The valedictorian didn't get enough personal attention from the office or her counselor? Well no shit, she's the valedictorian, she's doing great and she's going to continue to do great. The kids that are struggling need that help more.

I think your posts have been pretty poor throughout this thread, but I want to take issue with this one in particular because it perpetuates a very false idea. Just because your child is doing well academically, it does not mean they don't need help from their teachers and their school. I have a very good friend whose daughter is at the very top of her class... And struggling desperately with depression and suicide. My son has As in every class ...and has major issues with speech fluency and anexity.

"Getting good grades" is an outward sign of being successful in school, but most certainly not the only one, and definitely not the most important one. Who knows what this valedictorian was going through. It was certainly enough to get her to a place where she felt she needed to give this speech.
 

Deleted member 16609

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,828
Harlem, NYC
The district this happened in has been investigated in the past for corruption(money)And it seems the teachers are vocal as well(from what read)but that still doesn't mean anything.

The problem I have and it doesn't make sense like I mentioned before is where were the parents? I find it hard to believe no one knew about this teacher with said issues. I find it very baffling that the teacher would get arrested and not one parent would give a shit or even find out about it. Kids gossip and so does the town.

Hopefully this leads to an investigation, right or wrong.
 

someday

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,453
It has to do with a society that shits on people for speaking out, especially young people, and especially women. There's no way that doesn't color a lot of people's perception when they want to frame it a certain way.

Also, damn you have a lot of insults ready for this girl. Like, a lot.

Smug
Arrogant
Petty
Petulant
Vindictive
Entitled
Self-centered
Shameful


All that over a bright young woman using her platform to speak about something important to her. It's no wonder we have trouble progressing as a society or fixing anything.
I find this thread perplexing. A mixture of victim blaming type posts, defending the teacher so drunk they apparently got arrested at the school, insulting her intelligence and calling her spoiled, simply dismissing her because they were personal issues.

A lot of people just seem to be trying to discredit her without knowing the situation. I'm more interested in how a school administration could let a teacher work that long who clearly has a medical condition that affects their job and responsibility as a teacher without putting them on leave to get help. That's terrible for the teacher, the students and other staff if true.
Jesus this thread is pretty gross. Immediate dismissal of a young woman's concerns with a school system that did very little for her educational success over four years. Just because she overcame those obstacles to still become valedictorian doesn't mean that it's okay to totally dismiss everything she's saying.

She frames her experiences in a personal way because it's effective. It would have been a weaker argument if she tried to argue for her class' experiences as a whole. A school system is supposed to be there for every student, smart ones included. The administration clearly failed at giving her four great years of school if the first thing she does when she's given a position where others can hear her is put the school on blast. Like, she's valedictorian and even still her school experiences were shitty.

She's telling her truth to power and it's really something that so many posters here are shaming her for it. Not to mention that most of the criticisms she's getting here are using sexist terms that pretty much only get applied to women, so that's fun to see on Era. Not sure how you all expect things to change if people only speak truth to power at appropriate times and venues where it's not a disturbance to other people.
I fully agree with these posts (and others). This thread is really gross. I wonder if the valedictorian was a guy, would this be seen differently? The terms used for her are telling (someone even mentioned her getting a "talk to the manager haircut"), and the fact that someone actually used the word "rage" to describe her very monotone speech makes me feel that there are underlying reasons for some of the comments.
 

Ionitron

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
640
Jesus this thread is pretty gross. Immediate dismissal of a young woman's concerns with a school system that did very little for her educational success over four years. Just because she overcame those obstacles to still become valedictorian doesn't mean that it's okay to totally dismiss everything she's saying.

She frames her experiences in a personal way because it's effective. It would have been a weaker argument if she tried to argue for her class' experiences as a whole. A school system is supposed to be there for every student, smart ones included. The administration clearly failed at giving her four great years of school if the first thing she does when she's given a position where others can hear her is put the school on blast. Like, she's valedictorian and even still her school experiences were shitty.

She's telling her truth to power and it's really something that so many posters here are shaming her for it. Not to mention that most of the criticisms she's getting here are using sexist terms that pretty much only get applied to women, so that's fun to see on Era. Not sure how you all expect things to change if people only speak truth to power at appropriate times and venues where it's not a disturbance to other people.

I agree that the big issue here is the school system and the failures in it. I also agree that she's a victim of it because authority figures weren't there for her when she needed them. It's obvious she was upset by this, and she has every right to be. However, she doesn't really call these out as an issue of the school system, she paints it out as particular individuals being irresponsible. Maybe they really are, seems like the work permit thing was left to incompetence in their part? But it's also easy to not take into account all the roles administrators and counselors have, and how they're spread thin, until you're at the staff side at a school. Again, I don't blame her, she's just a student so it'd be hard for her to see these things, so she's just at the receiving end of the bullshit. I don't really have issue with her calling out the office with the work permit if it's just a matter of paperwork, or the alcoholic teacher, but I think to call out the counselor is a bit misguided, because we don't know the reasons as to why the counselors were unavailable. They're responsible for handling students that are at crises which can happen at literally any moment. One of the counselors at my school had to deal with a student that was basically about to commit suicide at the school and cut a wound so deep in her leg that she was surrounded by a pool of blood. The counselor is definitely not going to have their scheduled appointment at that time. That's the only aspect of her speech that came across as a bit too vindictive to me, but that's only because I have the insight as a teacher.

Again, she has every right to be frustrated. The system failed her when she needed it. However, I think it's also important to empathize with people that do work at schools, because they're often dealt a shit hand and students/parents are quick to get confrontational with teachers when most of the time they're doing their job and don't realize that their kid is not the number one priority 100% of the time, when they have plenty of other shit they need to deal with at any given moment. It's really really easy for students to antagonize school staff when they don't know everything that goes on and that's what at least part of what her speech appears like to be doing. She has every right to say what she said, but I think it puts some people like the counselor in the spot light a bit unfairly.

I'm not defending the school staff if they were truly irresponsible nor am I dismissing her claims. The school is definitely in fault for a lot of it. It's just easy for everyone to lose sight of the fact that the resources aren't there for schools. Would she really blame the school counselor when she found out that the counselor had to deal with the students who had to go on hospital homebound because they got diagnosed with cancer or anorexia? It's not like suddenly the school can bring in new counselors to help out, bring in social workers, hire new teachers, etc. My school is ranked as the best school in my county and we still have to scrap the bottom of the barrel for any resources whatsoever. I have to teach more classes than I'm supposed to because we still can't find a third teacher to fill my department. So many schools are over populated and understaffed, some don't even get the people they're supposed to be guaranteed to have by law. It's cool that she spoke out and shared her story, but for her to blame some people that weren't there for her neglects what the real issue is, because for all we know it probably might not have been their fault? Maybe it was, we don't know. For all we know, the alcoholic teacher could have been the only person they were able to hire for the position. Some schools can't even choose who they hire, the district places them in there. There are some districts that need teachers so bad they don't even hire teachers that are certified to teach. It's fucked. At the very least I'm glad that the speech could bring the conversation to light. It sucks that she's also a victim. I think there's no winning this, both the students and staff are screwed and the solution is far from immediate.
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,192
Lot of people ITT seem to think that the way to change things is to keep your head down and file complaints to the appropriate department.
 

Finalrush

Member
Dec 7, 2017
729
I agree that the big issue here is the school system and the failures in it. I also agree that she's a victim of it because authority figures weren't there for her when she needed them. It's obvious she was upset by this, and she has every right to be. However, she doesn't really call these out as an issue of the school system, she paints it out as particular individuals being irresponsible. Maybe they really are, seems like the work permit thing was left to incompetence in their part? But it's also easy to not take into account all the roles administrators and counselors have, and how they're spread thin, until you're at the staff side at a school. Again, I don't blame her, she's just a student so it'd be hard for her to see these things, so she's just at the receiving end of the bullshit. I don't really have issue with her calling out the office with the work permit if it's just a matter of paperwork, or the alcoholic teacher, but I think to call out the counselor is a bit misguided, because we don't know the reasons as to why the counselors were unavailable. They're responsible for handling students that are at crises which can happen at literally any moment. One of the counselors at my school had to deal with a student that was basically about to commit suicide at the school and cut a wound so deep in her leg that she was surrounded by a pool of blood. The counselor is definitely not going to have their scheduled appointment at that time. That's the only aspect of her speech that came across as a bit too vindictive to me, but that's only because I have the insight as a teacher.

Again, she has every right to be frustrated. The system failed her when she needed it. However, I think it's also important to empathize with people that do work at schools, because they're often dealt a shit hand and students/parents are quick to get confrontational with teachers when most of the time they're doing their job and don't realize that their kid is not the number one priority 100% of the time, when they have plenty of other shit they need to deal with at any given moment. It's really really easy for students to antagonize school staff when they don't know everything that goes on and that's what at least part of what her speech appears like to be doing. She has every right to say what she said, but I think it puts some people like the counselor in the spot light a bit unfairly.

I'm not defending the school staff if they were truly irresponsible nor am I dismissing her claims. The school is definitely in fault for a lot of it. It's just easy for everyone to lose sight of the fact that the resources aren't there for schools. Would she really blame the school counselor when she found out that the counselor had to deal with the students who had to go on hospital homebound because they got diagnosed with cancer or anorexia? It's not like suddenly the school can bring in new counselors to help out, bring in social workers, hire new teachers, etc. My school is ranked as the best school in my county and we still have to scrap the bottom of the barrel for any resources whatsoever. I have to teach more classes than I'm supposed to because we still can't find a third teacher to fill my department. So many schools are over populated and understaffed, some don't even get the people they're supposed to be guaranteed to have by law. It's cool that she spoke out and shared her story, but for her to blame some people that weren't there for her neglects what the real issue is, because for all we know it probably might not have been their fault? Maybe it was, we don't know. For all we know, the alcoholic teacher could have been the only person they were able to hire for the position. Some schools can't even choose who they hire, the district places them in there. There are some districts that need teachers so bad they don't even hire teachers that are certified to teach. It's fucked. At the very least I'm glad that the speech could bring the conversation to light. It sucks that she's also a victim. I think there's no winning this, both the students and staff are screwed and the solution is far from immediate.
An incredibly long list of excuses for incompetence. Regardless of pay, other students' circumstances, etc., the school wasn't doing their job. That's on them. Period. Not on the girl, not on other students, it is on the staff. Are there issues with the school system that exacerbate this? Yes. There are always reasons why incompetence occurs. Doesn't mean she shouldn't call this out, and does not mean the school is blameless.
 

Ionitron

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
640
An incredibly long list of excuses for incompetence. Regardless of pay, other students' circumstances, etc., the school wasn't doing their job. That's on them. Period. Not on the girl, not on other students, it is on the staff. Are there issues with the school system that exacerbate this? Yes. There are always reasons why incompetence occurs. Doesn't mean she shouldn't call this out, and does not mean the school is blameless.

I'm not saying that she's wrong for calling them out at all nor am I saying the school is blameless. She was wronged. That's fair. I'm only saying that it's more complicated than it seems and we shouldn't be quick to say "She's Right! The school is bad!" without considering everything. There are errors that are potentially not even the school's fault.
 

Maolfunction

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,871
I agree that the big issue here is the school system and the failures in it. I also agree that she's a victim of it because authority figures weren't there for her when she needed them. It's obvious she was upset by this, and she has every right to be. However, she doesn't really call these out as an issue of the school system, she paints it out as particular individuals being irresponsible. Maybe they really are, seems like the work permit thing was left to incompetence in their part? But it's also easy to not take into account all the roles administrators and counselors have, and how they're spread thin, until you're at the staff side at a school. Again, I don't blame her, she's just a student so it'd be hard for her to see these things, so she's just at the receiving end of the bullshit. I don't really have issue with her calling out the office with the work permit if it's just a matter of paperwork, or the alcoholic teacher, but I think to call out the counselor is a bit misguided, because we don't know the reasons as to why the counselors were unavailable. They're responsible for handling students that are at crises which can happen at literally any moment. One of the counselors at my school had to deal with a student that was basically about to commit suicide at the school and cut a wound so deep in her leg that she was surrounded by a pool of blood. The counselor is definitely not going to have their scheduled appointment at that time. That's the only aspect of her speech that came across as a bit too vindictive to me, but that's only because I have the insight as a teacher.

Again, she has every right to be frustrated. The system failed her when she needed it. However, I think it's also important to empathize with people that do work at schools, because they're often dealt a shit hand and students/parents are quick to get confrontational with teachers when most of the time they're doing their job and don't realize that their kid is not the number one priority 100% of the time, when they have plenty of other shit they need to deal with at any given moment. It's really really easy for students to antagonize school staff when they don't know everything that goes on and that's what at least part of what her speech appears like to be doing. She has every right to say what she said, but I think it puts some people like the counselor in the spot light a bit unfairly.

I'm not defending the school staff if they were truly irresponsible nor am I dismissing her claims. The school is definitely in fault for a lot of it. It's just easy for everyone to lose sight of the fact that the resources aren't there for schools. Would she really blame the school counselor when she found out that the counselor had to deal with the students who had to go on hospital homebound because they got diagnosed with cancer or anorexia? It's not like suddenly the school can bring in new counselors to help out, bring in social workers, hire new teachers, etc. My school is ranked as the best school in my county and we still have to scrap the bottom of the barrel for any resources whatsoever. I have to teach more classes than I'm supposed to because we still can't find a third teacher to fill my department. So many schools are over populated and understaffed, some don't even get the people they're supposed to be guaranteed to have by law. It's cool that she spoke out and shared her story, but for her to blame some people that weren't there for her neglects what the real issue is, because for all we know it probably might not have been their fault? Maybe it was, we don't know. For all we know, the alcoholic teacher could have been the only person they were able to hire for the position. Some schools can't even choose who they hire, the district places them in there. There are some districts that need teachers so bad they don't even hire teachers that are certified to teach. It's fucked. At the very least I'm glad that the speech could bring the conversation to light. It sucks that she's also a victim. I think there's no winning this, both the students and staff are screwed and the solution is far from immediate.

You probably should have kept reading the thread.

Like, even if your position is that the education system gets shit all in terms of support and that most educators are overworked, that still doesn't give your position that the girl should be aware of all of these things (at 18) and be sympathetic to the education system any credence. Her life experiences (and life experiences of her class) are being directly affected by a shitty system that didn't look out for them.

If your position is, well, can you blame the teacher for being drunk, just look at the mess the education system is, that's not a valid point. You don't punish the kids and their educational futures by being drunk constantly in class. If you're an overworked advisor, you don't push smart kids away with no explanation to only focus on kids with special needs. You still talk to them and explain your situation, which this student clearly never got.

If your instinct is to protect the school system because the school system isn't really being funded well, that's fine, but don't use it to dismiss a student whose life for 4 years was totally shit on by an incompetent administration that didn't know how to meet her needs. You can easily be empathetic for the student and agree that the school failed her and concurrently agree that the education system in America is overburdened and probably affecting kids negatively by not being able to meet every kid's needs.

It is possible to understand the nuance from both positions and still be supportive of the valedictorian here. I don't expect an 18 year old to have this level of understanding of the systemic issues the administration faces in trying to deal with what they've been dealt. She's mad that her needs weren't fully met. We should be able to agree with her and also understand that while maybe it's not entirely the school's fault that she didn't get the school experience she wanted, her life was still impacted negatively. And then use this as yet another example of America's failure to support the education system adequately so every kid can have their needs met so valedictorians never feel like thay have to give speeches like this.
 

andrew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,906
Should someone with nausea and headaches be forbidden from operating heavy machinery??
Um, if the headaches/migraines and nausea are consistent and acute enough to make operating heavy machinery dangerous for themselves and others, then absolutely yes? I can't tell if you seriously thought this was a gotcha question or if you're being sarcastic.

Lot of people ITT seem to think that the way to change things is to keep your head down and file complaints to the appropriate department.
Right? Which, from the context in interviews and the full content of her speech, this woman did. When she ran into problems she escalated and followed protocol, and she still had issues with the school up to graduation. I find it fair to be frustrated at that and to take more drastic action, especially when you do it in a manner that does not call anyone out by name and when it comes after an equal amount of praise for the people who were actually supportive (going by the runtime she spends roughly as much time celebrating those who helped her along the way as she does calling out those who made her education difficult).
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Um, if the headaches/migraines and nausea are consistent and acute enough to make operating heavy machinery dangerous for themselves and others, then absolutely yes? I can't tell if you seriously thought this was a gotcha question or if you're being sarcastic.
Super sarcastic yes. People with headaches shouldn't operate heavy machinery. People with alcoholism shouldn't be teachers.

They should be helped with proper medical care but not do certain jobs until their issues are resolved.
 

Ionitron

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
640
You probably should have kept reading the thread.
It is possible to understand the nuance from both positions and still be supportive of the valedictorian here. I don't expect an 18 year old to have this level of understanding of the systemic issues the administration faces in trying to deal with what they've been dealt. She's mad that her needs weren't fully met. We should be able to agree with her and also understand that while maybe it's not entirely the school's fault that she didn't get the school experience she wanted, her life was still impacted negatively. And then use this as yet another example of America's failure to support the education system adequately so every kid can have their needs met so valedictorians never feel like thay have to give speeches like this.

I mean, I agree with that, I'm not saying otherwise. I understand why she's mad and I'm glad she spoke out on it. Like I said, I'm glad that we can have the conversation about how there is a bigger issue with the education system. At no point was I trying to disagree with the valedictorian. I just think that some of her claims don't account for a lot of the intricacies, which I don't even blame her for because there's no way she'd know about them as a student.

It's just unfortunate that I think a lot of people here are quick to blame the school but they also don't know what roles they have and how this could have happened to begin with. That's all I'm trying to bring to light here.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I think your posts have been pretty poor throughout this thread, but I want to take issue with this one in particular because it perpetuates a very false idea. Just because your child is doing well academically, it does not mean they don't need help from their teachers and their school. I have a very good friend whose daughter is at the very top of her class... And struggling desperately with depression and suicide. My son has As in every class ...and has major issues with speech fluency and anexity.

"Getting good grades" is an outward sign of being successful in school, but most certainly not the only one, and definitely not the most important one. Who knows what this valedictorian was going through. It was certainly enough to get her to a place where she felt she needed to give this speech.
I don't disagree that exceptional students don't need attention as well, but the practical reality is that school counselors rarely have enough time to provide the maximum amount of attention to every student. That is a problem with the system, and the problem with using one perspective to call out individuals in such a public way.

Her counselor might be an amazing and committed individual, just completely overwhelmed by the demands on his or her time. Or, they are very bad at their job. We don't know, and honestly the speaker probably doesn't know that either. She only is only speaking from her perspective.
 

Finalrush

Member
Dec 7, 2017
729
I'm not saying that she's wrong for calling them out at all nor am I saying the school is blameless. She was wronged. That's fair. I'm only saying that it's more complicated than it seems and we shouldn't be quick to say "She's Right! The school is bad!" without considering everything. There are errors that are potentially not even the school's fault.
Are you under the impression that some here do not know that public schools are underfunded?

I think everyone is aware of the circumstances -- it just doesn't change the fact that the school staff was clearly incompetent and she was right to call them out when given a platform. Implying that we'd be less quick to say she's right and that the school is bad if we were aware of these circumstances (that we're all aware of) just seems like an irrational way of rationalizing why we disagree with you.
 

Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
This speech was front-loaded with praise for her favorite teachers, her friends, and her family. Her criticisms were cutting, but not hysterical or obscene. I only have this video and my own experiences to go off of, but I believe every word she is saying.
 

Maolfunction

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,871
I mean, I agree with that, I'm not saying otherwise. I understand why she's mad and I'm glad she spoke out on it. Like I said, I'm glad that we can have the conversation about how there is a bigger issue with the education system. At no point was I trying to disagree with the valedictorian. I just think that some of her claims don't account for a lot of the intricacies, which I don't even blame her for because there's no way she'd know about them as a student.

It's just unfortunate that I think a lot of people here are quick to blame the school but they also don't know what roles they have and how this could have happened to begin with. That's all I'm trying to bring to light here.
Considering how many people in this thread are dismissing her outright and only coming to the school's defense, your responses have come off more as concern trolling than actually being empathetic for the valedictorian.

People on her side understand that the education system is, put bluntly, fucked in America. That just doesn't excuse shitty behavior towards certain students because of their economic status or good grades. And it certainly doesn't excuse teachers coming in drunk on multiple occasions.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
For all the people attacking this student, you don't know anything about this school or its staff. She does. As do the students applauding her.

Come off it.