• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,182

The University of California came under new pressure Tuesday to eliminate the SAT and ACT as an admission requirement, when several groups threatened a lawsuit alleging that the tests violate state civil rights laws by unlawfully discriminating against disabled, low-income and underrepresented minority students.

A letter delivered to UC regents by lawyers representing the Compton Unified School District, the Community Coalition and others demanded that the university "immediately stop this discriminatory practice" or face litigation. It marks the first step in what could be the nation's first lawsuit seeking to end the use of the controversial tests, which have been dropped as admission requirements by more than 1,000 colleges and universities across the nation, including the University of Chicago and University of San Francisco.
ACT and the College Board, which owns the SAT, took strong exception to charges that their tests are discriminatory. They said that differences in test scores reflect social inequities in access to quality education, not their exams. They argue that their tests are predictive of college performance and offer a uniform yardstick that allows colleges to compare students across a range of states and high schools.

"The ACT test is not discriminatory nor biased," ACT spokesman Ed Colby said in a statement. "Blaming standardized tests for differences in educational quality and opportunities that exist will not improve educational outcomes."

College Board spokesman Zachary Goldberg said the organization would continue to work with UC officials to promote student success but said the letter "contains a number of false assertions and is counterproductive to the fact-based, data-driven discussion that students, parents and educators deserve."

Critics, however, say the exams are an unfair admission barrier to students who don't test well or can't afford to pay for pricey test preparation. Decades of research have shown that scores are strongly influenced by family income, parents' education and race.
Any decision by UC to drop the SAT and ACT would play an enormous role in the future of standardized testing in America because of its size and status as the nation's top public research university system. California is the largest market for the tests and six of UC's 10 campuses, which collectively educate 222,500 undergraduates, receive the most applications in the nation.

"This case is profound and far-reaching in its implications," said Bob Schaeffer, public education director for FairTest, the National Center for Fair and Open Testing, which has fought to end the tests for decades. "The whole world will be watching."
Kawika Smith, a senior at Verbum Dei High School in Watts who is one of three students threatening litigation, said that standardized testing requirements are stymieing his dreams to get into a good college. He has a 3.56 GPA, three associate degrees from L.A. Southwest College and a resume of leadership posts and community service.

But he said he and his mother, a home care worker who earns just $23,000 annually, have struggled with bouts of homelessness and hunger and can't afford private tutors or elite test prep courses. SAT training offered by his school and nonprofits has not been effective in teaching him key test-taking strategies, he said. Moreover, he added, he bombed several SAT practice tests because he had no money for breakfast and couldn't concentrate on an empty stomach.

He's resigned to low scores when he takes the test later this year and worries his performance will probably shut the door to dreams of getting into UCLA or UC Berkeley. (Standardized test scores are just one of 14 factors that UC considers in admissions decisions.)
The demand letter was sent by Public Counsel, the Los Angeles-based pro bono law firm, and four other legal firms and nonprofits on behalf of three students. The groups also include the Dolores Huerta Foundation, College Access Plan, College Seekers and Little Manila Rising, among others.

They argue that standardized tests also discriminate against English-language learners, who may be less able to process word problems as quickly as native English speakers. And students with disabilities are also disadvantaged, they assert, because not all SAT test sites offer Braille, certain time extensions, extended or extra breaks.

The myriad barriers result in huge disparities in scores, the letter said. Last year in California, 53% of Asian Americans and 44% of whites scored above 1200 — the 75th percentile — compared to 12% of Latinos and 10% of blacks.
Christopher Edley, Jr., a UC Berkeley law professor and co-founder of the Opportunity Institute, a nonprofit advocating educational equity, said the timing is right for a legal challenge because a less discriminatory alternative to the SAT and ACT now exists. The Smarter Balanced test is used in California and more than a dozen other states to assess how well K-12 students have mastered English and math skills required by standards known as Common Core.

Edley said he favors that test because research has shown it performs as well as the SAT test in predicting first-year college grades with less bias against disadvantaged students. Another advantage is that 11th-graders at all public schools already take it during school hours at state expense. He added that the SAT is designed to produce low, middle and high scores. All students could do well on Smarter Balanced if they master the content California educators have determined they need to know.

 

shnurgleton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,864
Boston
Sure, plenty of studies have been done to show that standardized tests are somewhat discriminatory. What is a decent alternative?
 

Minarik

Member
Nov 9, 2017
269
How else can you compare applicants from different educational backgrounds? Standardized testing shouldn't be the sole determining factor, but it still serves a purpose as a guideline.
 

Deleted member 51691

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 6, 2019
17,834
Standardized tests are a tough issue. Obviously they aren't designed to discriminate, but they do so in effect. The problem is how to assess a prospective applicant's wealth of knowledge without some form of testing. An A at one school has a very different meaning to an A at another school. Standardized tests allow colleges to compare academic performance across different schools. Not sure how these groups expect admissions officers to use education as a metric for admission without a standardized test.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,898
Standardized tests are a tough issue. Obviously they aren't designed to discriminate, but they do so in effect. The problem is how to assess a prospective applicant's wealth of knowledge without some form of testing.

They're probably the most 'equal' of all the numerous unequal ways college admissions are judged.
 

MonoStable

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,051
I graduated high school with a low GPA I don't think I would have gotten into college if it wasn't for scoring a decent number on my SAT's.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Sure, plenty of studies have been done to show that standardized tests are somewhat discriminatory. What is a decent alternative?

From the OP:
Christopher Edley, Jr., a UC Berkeley law professor and co-founder of the Opportunity Institute, a nonprofit advocating educational equity, said the timing is right for a legal challenge because a less discriminatory alternative to the SAT and ACT now exists. The Smarter Balanced test is used in California and more than a dozen other states to assess how well K-12 students have mastered English and math skills required by standards known as Common Core.

Edley said he favors that test because research has shown it performs as well as the SAT test in predicting first-year college grades with less bias against disadvantaged students. Another advantage is that 11th-graders at all public schools already take it during school hours at state expense. He added that the SAT is designed to produce low, middle and high scores. All students could do well on Smarter Balanced if they master the content California educators have determined they need to know.
 

Silver-Streak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,007
Standardized Testing,. as far as I know, is literally just a metric. I'm not sure that it can be viewed as inherently biased, unless the things being tested on aren't taught in minority schools.
 

nsilvias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,702
Right? Let's address things like legacy admissions before going after something that is literally not biased lol
the test itself is not biased but considering how different your education can be in even a neighboring district i'd say they have a point.
my brother for example used to attend chicago public schools (in a poor minority neighborhood) and when we moved to a different neighorbood (with more money and white) away from cps he was very behind on what that district was teaching its students.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,150
NYC
And we can ignore the fact that low-income students can take the SAT for free.

And state-specific exams are all well and good but are universities in different states accepting those scores?
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,893
Colleges not being test optional in 2019, what are you doing? Just make it test optional and 90% of kids will still take them anyway, in part because in most states one of the two big ones is given to all students
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Ridiculous. They have issues because of systemic issues, but you can work to counteract that in the process.

The worst part about College admissions are the essays and other similar "character" based stuff, which were explicitly instituted to reduce the amount of Jewish students admitted to Ivy League schools a century ago.
 
Dec 31, 2017
7,084
It is known that socioeconomic status correlates with SAT scores. I don't think that makes the exams inherently discriminatory though. This finding is the symptom of a wider problem: wide ranges in education quality from K-12.


This is an interesting concept, however if this test is not as good as the SAT in stratifying students, then it's function in college admissions is less useful.

It's function in assessing educational competence overall is good, though.
 

Deleted member 9100

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
Ridiculous. They have issues because of systemic issues, but you can work to counteract that in the process.

The worst part about College admissions are the essays and other similar "character" based stuff, which were explicitly instituted to reduce the amount of Jewish students admitted to Ivy League schools a century ago.

And now that system is used to reduce the amount of Asian students admitted.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
And we can ignore the fact that low-income students can take the SAT for free.

And state-specific exams are all well and good but are universities in different states accepting those scores?

SBAC is used in 12 states.

Vouchers for no-charge SAT testing don't entirely overcome the problem, just as having no-charge state IDs for low-income folk doesn't overcome the hurdles associated with voter ID laws.
 

Sedated

Member
Apr 13, 2018
2,598
More than this I wish there were more seats for the 'general' category of students to fight over than there is now...

Edit: It has become really difficult to get admitted in the top unis even with the required grades. Seems all luck these days. I think people might find this sentiment wrong but unless you are not part of a category that has certain reservation whether it be income group or ethnicity you are just shit out of luck and it gets incredibly hard among the good to top bracket of unis. And while you may say it is fair the students who go through it certainly dont. And that is not a good sentiment.
 
Last edited:

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,744
Anybody who has taken an SAT prep course knows it's a garbage test. It's literally the first thing they teach you. And the mere act of being able to afford an SAT prep course is already a serious advantage compared to other students.
 

Silver-Streak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,007
There's plenty of research that illustrate how the SAT disadvantages minority students. It's even in the OP

I've read the article, but I'm not seeing how the tests disadavantages them. It sounds more like the schools give them a poor education or preparation for taking tests in general?

That said, I absolutely think there should be alternatives available for anyone who has actual issues with testing in general. Testing should just be a metric to measure, not a criteria. Those that excel in other areas should have metrics that they can be measured against if not the test.
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,232
replacing it with another test that doesn't have the results the SAT has does.
I don't see how another test would solve the problems of one of the plaintiffs:

But he said he and his mother, a home care worker who earns just $23,000 annually, have struggled with bouts of homelessness and hunger and can't afford private tutors or elite test prep courses. SAT training offered by his school and nonprofits has not been effective in teaching him key test-taking strategies, he said. Moreover, he added, he bombed several SAT practice tests because he had no money for breakfast and couldn't concentrate on an empty stomach.

All of those would exist for any standardized test.
 

blackw0lf48

Member
Jan 2, 2019
2,929
This is a key paragraph

Kawika Smith, a senior at Verbum Dei High School in Watts who is one of three students threatening litigation, said that standardized testing requirements are stymieing his dreams to get into a good college. He has a 3.56 GPA, three associate degrees from L.A. Southwest College and a resume of leadership posts and community service.

But he said he and his mother, a home care worker who earns just $23,000 annually, have struggled with bouts of homelessness and hunger and can't afford private tutors or elite test prep courses. SAT training offered by his school and nonprofits has not been effective in teaching him key test-taking strategies, he said. Moreover, he added, he bombed several SAT practice tests because he had no money for breakfast and couldn't concentrate on an empty stomach.

Someone who has showed strong scholastic aptitude who because of their impoverished conditions will have difficulty taking an SAT should not be penalized.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
Have a curve based on economical background of your family and of your school district.

If you're poor and you live in a bad neighborhood you get your test results curved up.

Also make the tests much harder so that full marks are impossible to come by.

Testers being hungry seems like a separate issue that needs to be addressed by some other initiative. If students go hungry there are bigger impacts than SAT scores.
 

Silver-Streak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,007
This is a key paragraph



Someone who has showed strong scholastic aptitude who because of their impoverished conditions will have difficulty taking an SAT should not be penalized.
I agree with your statement, I think it just becomes a how do you put a metric for scholastic aptitude?

This is an important question, and one schools and educators should be focused on rather than just defending the SATs.
 

Alcoremortis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
I wish there was some realistic way to ban SAT prep courses. I feel they take away from the spirit of the test (it's supposedly testing how much you've retained not how many test taking tips you've memorized) and also just make it even harder for lower income students to catch up.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,150
NYC
This is a key paragraph



Someone who has showed strong scholastic aptitude who because of their impoverished conditions will have difficulty taking an SAT should not be penalized.
More and more schools are going test optional, and the article even references that standardized testing is only 1 of 14 items taken into consideration. I do think more admissions need to be test optional, as it can provide a more comprehensive look into a student's success.


SBAC is used in 12 states.

Vouchers for no-charge SAT testing don't entirely overcome the problem, just as having no-charge state IDs for low-income folk doesn't overcome the hurdles associated with voter ID laws.
Maybe if more states adopt the standard it'd make more sense. As it is, I don't think having a lot of standardized entrance exams is really a good idea. One state wants SAT/ACT while another wants SBAC and doesn't accept SAT/ACT? That just screams problematic to me.

And while it's true that the vouchers don't overcome the problem—especially because students have to self-identify and it can be a point of shame—I think it's better than trying to abolish an exam entirely.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
The same for me, I was a fuckup my first two years of high school. A lot of extracurricular activities and scoring a 750 on the verbal section of the SAT saved my ass.
Same here, I had a lot of issues (body was basically trying to kill me for most of the first three decades of my life and it got missed by docs) that were hindering me in HS and my test score helped pull me out of the bubble.

You need some sort of third-party metric that's available in all 50 states and until you can hotswap, abandoning the current one makes no sense whatsoever.
I wish there was some realistic way to ban SAT prep courses. I feel they take away from the spirit of the test (it's supposedly testing how much you've retained not how many test taking tips you've memorized) and also just make it even harder for lower income students to catch up.
I'm curious how much those actually help cause I didn't need them whatsoever.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,150
NYC
I'm curious how much those actually help cause I didn't need them whatsoever.
They help a lot since they're basically just showing you what's going to be on the exam. A lot of the expensive ones are as close to cheating as you can get without going into the exam with the answers already written down.
 

Surface of Me

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,207
Anybody who has taken an SAT prep course knows it's a garbage test. It's literally the first thing they teach you. And the mere act of being able to afford an SAT prep course is already a serious advantage compared to other students.

Prep courses were a free elective in my high school.

Anecdotedly, the prep course didn't really help me at all.
 

Clay

Member
Oct 29, 2017
8,107
Have a curve based on economical background of your family and of your school district.

If you're poor and you live in a bad neighborhood you get your test results curved up.

Also make the tests much harder so that full marks are impossible to come by.

Testers being hungry seems like a separate issue that needs to be addressed by some other initiative. If students go hungry there are bigger impacts than SAT scores.

And when a kid whose score has been curved by this method can't pass a math or English class in college what do we do? Just assume/ hope that the college is better prepared than their high school to catch them up?

The SAT recently considered including an "adversity score" that was meant to capture a student's socioeconomic background but quickly dropped the idea after announcing it. Something like that would be preferable. The point of the test is to give schools a rough, imperfect idea of how prepared a student is for college. If that gets confused you may as well just drop the test entirely and save students a ton of stress.


I've been tutoring for the SAT and ACT for a few years and I feel bad for many of my students. It's common for kids trying to get into competitive schools to have absolutely packed schedules with AP classes, multiple sports, volunteer work, leadership duties, sometimes a part-time job, and in junior year having to prep for a standardized test on top of everything else.

It's an awesome side job BTW if anyone is looking for ways to make extra money. You may start out making less initially until you have some experience but the average hourly rate at a company where I'm at is around $35/ hr. Private is closer to $100.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Again, SBAC -- which is part of the regular school process in 12 states, including California -- is about a good a predictor of college success as the SAT. Allowing for it to be an option in place of the SAT/ACT for admissions would be beneficial.

They help a lot since they're basically just showing you what's going to be on the exam. A lot of the expensive ones are as close to cheating as you can get without going into the exam with the answers already written down.

Beyond just content, test prep also covers strategies that are pretty specific to the SAT/ACT with regard to time management on different categories of problems, guessing, etc. These are skills that really have no applicability to college courses or real world success.

Yes, there are plenty of students who excel on these tests without third party coaching, but studies show that even those students stand to gain a few points through prep programs.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
This almost feels like an effort to reduce Asian American enrollment in CA universities. I know that has been a hot topic in CA with the non-discriminatory laws.