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Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Nah the game is just that much easier than Crypt, kinda to a fault IMO. I think a lot of the permanent changes were very sensible, but being able to keep all weapons AND easily infuse them with semi-permanent effects really affects balance for the worse. Once you find the respective fairy, you can just add obsidian to your favorite weapon and never have any reason to use a different one ever again; not even the late game legendary weapons compare; it's absurd.

I replayed the game as Cadence-only yesterday and prioritized time over everything else and while I still missed only a couple heart pieces, I was constantly low on diamonds which made the final dungeon actually challenging; it was nice.

By the way I'm fairly sure the timer is bugged, at least in handheld mode. It seems like it keeps track of the time the game is opened including the time spent in sleep mode. My first playthrough took 12+ hours according to the game, and I'm sure I spent 5 hours playing it at most, but I did beat the game around 12 hours after I started it that day. Same happened to a friend who finished it a day after starting it and her clock marked 25 hours.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,974
United Kingdom
Nah the game is just that much easier than Crypt, kinda to a fault IMO. I think a lot of the permanent changes were very sensible, but being able to keep all weapons AND easily infuse them with semi-permanent effects really affects balance for the worse. Once you find the respective fairy, you can just add obsidian to your favorite weapon and never have any reason to use a different one ever again; not even the late game legendary weapons compare; it's absurd.

I replayed the game as Cadence-only yesterday and prioritized time over everything else and while I still missed only a couple heart pieces, I was constantly low on diamonds which made the final dungeon actually challenging; it was nice.

By the way I'm fairly sure the timer is bugged, at least in handheld mode. It seems like it keeps track of the time the game is opened including the time spent in sleep mode. My first playthrough took 12+ hours according to the game, and I'm sure I spent 5 hours playing it at most, but I did beat the game around 12 hours after I started it that day. Same happened to a friend who finished it a day after starting it and her clock marked 25 hours.

It appears that the game's timer keeps running even if the game is suspended (i.e. you're on the HOME menu, or you've put the console into sleep mode). Best bet to avoid such an issue is to save and quit when you're done.

I don't necessarily think the game being easy is a fault necessarily, but the balancing does seem slightly off when playing normally. If people are looking for a slightly more challenging experience, I'd recommend Permadeath mode.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Yeah permadeath with Zelda-only is definitely next for me, I'm looking forward to that. Still this is something I always have a problem with BYG titles, their alternatives for those who want a harder difficulty are always over the top and I really wish there was something in between. Sure I'll take the increased difficulty but one without permadeath would be appreciated, same for the other... Game mode you can unlock that is almost Aria in Necrodancer levels of extreme.

I already mentioned but it's the same in Necrodancer. Cadence is hard but reasonable (and very satisfying), Melody is a bit easier actually, but different enough that is still quite fun and fresh, and then there's Aria mode which is just mean... Basically BYG please chill, haha.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,305
I think this game, for better or for worse, is a good proof of concept for a future Necrodancer sequel or a follow up to this game. I think if they adjust the difficulty curve so you can't become an unstoppable killing god machine after a few upgrades, it would be a much more balanced experience.
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,615
Question about the ending

Did Cadence get the Triforce of Power? Has anyone outside the core three Zelda characters ever had a Triforce?
 

New Donker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,359
Nah the game is just that much easier than Crypt, kinda to a fault IMO. I think a lot of the permanent changes were very sensible, but being able to keep all weapons AND easily infuse them with semi-permanent effects really affects balance for the worse. Once you find the respective fairy, you can just add obsidian to your favorite weapon and never have any reason to use a different one ever again; not even the late game legendary weapons compare; it's absurd.

I replayed the game as Cadence-only yesterday and prioritized time over everything else and while I still missed only a couple heart pieces, I was constantly low on diamonds which made the final dungeon actually challenging; it was nice.

By the way I'm fairly sure the timer is bugged, at least in handheld mode. It seems like it keeps track of the time the game is opened including the time spent in sleep mode. My first playthrough took 12+ hours according to the game, and I'm sure I spent 5 hours playing it at most, but I did beat the game around 12 hours after I started it that day. Same happened to a friend who finished it a day after starting it and her clock marked 25 hours.

Yea the clock is definitely broken with sleep mode. Says I put like 50 hours into it lol
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,978
I definitely had fun my first run through but I also wish it had more roguelike elements as others have said. The big thing its lacking is decisions, good run based games, CotN very much included, require you to make frequent decisions that will affect the flow of your play (is the obsidian spear or the vampiric broadsword better right now? Is it worth losing auto dig for a safe bomb helmet?) and the continuous accumulation in this game makes it all a bit, ah, smooth I suppose
 

Silver-Streak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,009
So just finished it today, only Game Over'd once. I absolutely loved this game. It not only feels like a fantastic Zelda game, but also a fantastic sequel to Crypt of the Necrodancer.

1. At the end of the credits, it shows the full triforce and then some purple smoke coming at it. Anyone have any idea waht that is about? DLC? Sequel?
2. Anyone know if there's a 5th character?
Edit: apologies, didn't realize the spoiler tags were wrong originally.
 
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Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,856
Im very very bad at rhythm games, I just cant play them but I kind wanna play it because I love Zelda. How is the fixed beat mode? Still fun or I should skip this one?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
I must have been lucky in my first run- or this game is *significantly * easier than crypt of the necrodancer. That game I could never get very far - I once got to a boss after much pain and it thoroughly steamrolled me. Zelda on the other hand ? With a broadsword with titanium upgrade (I got both early on) - that you don't lose when you die! - and bottles of red potion, it's seemingly impossible to lose. Even the rhythm seems far more forgiving

For some reason, Story mode is set to "Easy" difficulty, while Permadeath runs are a difficulty closer to what is in CotN. The reason why I call Story "easy" rather than "normal" is that there are items that are 25 rupees in Permadeath, but only 12 rupees in Story, which means that 25 is the base value and that Normal is half of that (and rounded down), rather than Permadeath being 2x.

So the game is likely designed around Permadeath's difficulty, then costs are halved and enemies are downscaled one tier for Story mode. Story mode already has a bit of a learning curve and rough start, and it was probably absolutely brutal before they made the easy mode changes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
Just completed my first run in Story Mode. I came in with zero experience in CotN, so it was a very sloppy learning run (61119 steps, 41 deaths), but that's the price of a lot of experimentation and not much use of the various healing mechanics. (For instance, I didn't know until nearly the end that red potions auto-activate like fairies usually do, or I might have thought about banking them earlier instead of skipping potions like I often do in 2D Zelda.) I played as Zelda the whole way through until the final area.

I may have more to say about Cadence of Hyrule later, as this was a terrific experience all around, but I do want to make note of two caveats: first, that it's really too bad that this game has the same bug that Xenoblade 2 did at launch, in that it logs suspended time as playtime—suggesting that my clear time was over 80 hours when I've only owned the game for that long, and the actual number is probably less than 10. And second, that as a trained musician who played the whole game using one's ears instead of even looking at the Triforce metronome ticker on the bottom, the most frustrating element of the game was the Tingle note puzzle that didn't give me the beat and actually required me to use my eyes. Of course, that in itself is a test of how well you count rests in a syncopated context, itself a valuable skill and a test that I here failed miserably.

I'm not sure if I'm keen on diving straight back in right away, but I'll probably attempt my next run with permadeath just to get a sense of the flow. I may have died a lot in easy old Story Mode, but I also felt that I wasn't particularly pressed when it came to the meta-progression mechanics, as it didn't take long to become absolutely loaded with diamonds with nothing to spend them on.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,515
UK
Honestly 1 QoL change I want is for single character, permadeath or/and daily challenge is that I automatically get my dagger, torch, shovel and first ability. It is such a hassle to grab all of them at the very start.

Also I'm going crazy trying to find secrets. I even tried to gather cuccos.
D9O5kb0U0AQvNPw.jpg:large
 

Rizific

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,953
How do I get into hyrule castle? There's two tiles at the gate, says I need to find someone to help me
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Man, the randomness really affects this game. My first full playthrough, I found my first real dungeon/boss within a half hour, took around 8 hours to do the first full run. My second run, I've been playing for under 2 hours, I've explored 2/3 of the overworld, not a single real boss yet.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,270
What if... the next game was:

Cadence of Hallownest
Crypt of the Necrodancer
featuring Hollow Knight

I am now incredibly sad that I will never get to play that...
 
Oct 2, 2018
3,902
um, where are the deku seed spitters? They're not showing on my map nor is there a thing to track the deku shrubs.

:@



What if... the next game was:

Cadence of Hallownest
Crypt of the Necrodancer
featuring Hollow Knight

I am now incredibly sad that I will never get to play that...

END GAME SPOILERS
quite curiously she
falls outta the sky and goes I hope its home but its probably not

but obviously this is a nintendo verse so cadence of mario? lol.
 
Oct 2, 2018
3,902
It could have easily been worth 25 if it had the longtime motivation of the original necrodancer but they made too easy so after a few hours it's basically over.

I do think its too expensive. I finished it in 1 sitting and that's kinda it. I dont have nintendo online so no daily runs (not that I care to play them). it should have been much cheaper.
 

Moff

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,787
I do think its too expensive. I finished it in 1 sitting and that's kinda it. I dont have nintendo online so no daily runs (not that I care to play them). it should have been much cheaper.
I dont have nintendo online and could do them. Unless I got some limited version of them?
But yeah I dont care about them either.
 
Oct 2, 2018
3,902
I dont have nintendo online and could do them. Unless I got some limited version of them?
But yeah I dont care about them either.

dunno. its not even clear how to get the daily runs. Its not on the front end and as someone said you have to use a new save (but no idea). Haven't tried and also can't be bothered. But yeah. if the
dark world was a full map
it would have probably made this game feel more worth it.
 

membran

Member
Oct 27, 2017
339
Sure I'll take the increased difficulty but one without permadeath would be appreciated, same for the other... Game mode you can unlock that is almost Aria in Necrodancer levels of extreme.

To which unlockable game mode in Cadence are you referring to? I just beat the game yesterday and it didn't unlock anything for me, though I did totally forget to deliver any deku seeds at all. I think I found all of them but never realized until the credits rolled where I likely was meant to turn them in.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
So I thought I'd try a single-character run (with a character I hardly used in my Story Mode file, which meant that I've been learning a different shield mechanic as I go) with permadeath on, and after wiping repeatedly without ever scraping out of the three-heart zone and stabilizing... I'm completely convinced that permadeath is where the real game is, and the way it was meant to be played.

That isn't to say I would have liked to learn the game this way; not at all. But I think a lot of things—the cost balancing, the weapon/item variety, the difficulty curve (where it starts out punishing as you learn the patterns and drops off sharply), the entire element of map randomization—suddenly make sense and work together when you think of Story Mode as the tutorial and permadeath as the place where you really get to see the systems click. I found that in Story Mode, I was often overly risky instead of properly learning some of the patterns (or just far too dependent on certain weapon types as soon as I obtained them) because death just didn't matter; sure, you might lose some cash and be set back a few squares to your most recent Sheikah Stone, but ultimately that just restocks your diamond supply.

Story Mode is designed as a safe environment for learning the patterns, but it doesn't teach you to pick your battles carefully, the additional diamond income from playing cleanly doesn't really matter, and you don't have to work that hard to earn any progress. It has its place, but it shouldn't be taken as the barometer of the game's difficulty, and those who clear it once and stop are certainly missing out on the playground where you truly get to apply everything you've learned along the way.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,375
So I thought I'd try a single-character run (with a character I hardly used in my Story Mode file, which meant that I've been learning a different shield mechanic as I go) with permadeath on, and after wiping repeatedly without ever scraping out of the three-heart zone and stabilizing... I'm completely convinced that permadeath is where the real game is, and the way it was meant to be played.

That isn't to say I would have liked to learn the game this way; not at all. But I think a lot of things—the cost balancing, the weapon/item variety, the difficulty curve (where it starts out punishing as you learn the patterns and drops off sharply), the entire element of map randomization—suddenly make sense and work together when you think of Story Mode as the tutorial and permadeath as the place where you really get to see the systems click. I found that in Story Mode, I was often overly risky instead of properly learning some of the patterns (or just far too dependent on certain weapon types as soon as I obtained them) because death just didn't matter; sure, you might lose some cash and be set back a few squares to your most recent Sheikah Stone, but ultimately that just restocks your diamond supply.

Story Mode is designed as a safe environment for learning the patterns, but it doesn't teach you to pick your battles carefully, the additional diamond income from playing cleanly doesn't really matter, and you don't have to work that hard to earn any progress. It has its place, but it shouldn't be taken as the barometer of the game's difficulty, and those who clear it once and stop are certainly missing out on the playground where you truly get to apply everything you've learned along the way.

Interesting! You'd still recommend a first play through in Story Mode though?
 

Johnny Cicala

Member
Dec 8, 2017
186
Quick question (and sorry if it was already discussed in the thread): is it normal I have something like 150 diamonds and no real way to spend them except for equipment between deaths and weapon-effect upgrades?
 

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,589
Switzerland
yeah the game is way better with peramdeath, like the first necrodancer, that's the way to play it imo!

Not saying you can't enjoy the normal mode, but aside from the really beginning, it's really easy after that
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
Interesting! You'd still recommend a first play through in Story Mode though?

Definitely. I'm not actually sure you can set up a custom game with permadeath on in the first run anyway (I thought I looked for it, and maybe it doesn't give you the option the first time you select New Game). Again, I'm saying this as someone who came in with zero CotN experience, but the standard mode is essential just to wrap your head around what is going on in the game and how the various weapons or enemies function.

The difficulty does taper off dramatically, as many have attested here in this thread, but that's because Story Mode is clearly balanced as a first-run tutorial, and once you're far along, there isn't really an economy balance to speak of at all. But it's still extremely valuable and also fun.

Cadence is a very good game. Cadence with permadeath is a crazy good game—but you do need to know how it works going in.
 

membran

Member
Oct 27, 2017
339
Story Mode is designed as a safe environment for learning the patterns, but it doesn't teach you to pick your battles carefully, the additional diamond income from playing cleanly doesn't really matter, and you don't have to work that hard to earn any progress.

That's an interesting take. I was already suspecting permadeath mode (haven't gotten around to trying it out myself) to be much more interesting (the absence of the "death shop" alone means missing out on the guaranteed spear and the two full heart container upgrades). But why do you appear to be saying that diamond income matters more on permadeath? I would have thought it matters even less than in story mode, because there's no "death shop". During my run, the only proper shop I could only spend diamonds in were the ones with the weapon enchantment fairies, and those were fairly cheap (5 diamonds?) - and you'd only need to buy the enchantment once, anyway, regardless of permadeath or story mode.

The difficulty does taper off dramatically, as many have attested here in this thread, but that's because Story Mode is clearly balanced as a first-run tutorial, and once you're far along, there isn't really an economy balance to speak of at all. But it's still extremely valuable and also fun.

But once you've managed to turn it into a fairly successful permadeath run, wouldn't it at some point become as easy as story-mode? Three bottles filled with red potions, obsidian spear or broad sword? I've read that permadeath mode apparently starts off with enemies that are one tier higher, do those enemies scale the same as in story mode, or do they scale harder?
 
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Oct 25, 2017
2,644
That's an interesting take. I was already suspecting permadeath mode (haven't gotten around to trying it out myself) to be much more interesting (the absence of the "death shop" alone means missing out on the guaranteed spear and the two full heart container upgrades). But why do you appear to be saying that diamond income matters more on permadeath? I would have thought it matters even less than in story mode, because there's no "death shop". During my run, the only proper shop I could only spend diamonds were the weapon enchantment fairies, and those were fairly cheap (5 diamonds?) and you'd only need to buy the enchantment once, anyway, regardless of permadeath or story mode.

The reason it matters is because (a) everything costs double in permadeath (both in rupees and diamonds, as far as I can tell), and (b) you can't just accumulate diamonds from zones repopulating in the world after every death, so it's worthwhile to squeeze every drop you can out of every square on the map. There are simply fewer diamonds to go around, especially because you restart from zero.

In Story Mode, I found the death shop pretty worthless anyway after I picked up the few essential things that actually persist (in my case, a heart container and a broadsword). Shovels and torches would drop right away whenever I respawned, so there was no point in buying them or anything else fragile or consumable, except in the rare case of a defensive ring, perhaps. So before too long, in Story Mode you're drowning in diamonds with nothing left to buy.

But once you've managed to turn it into a fairly successful permadeath run, wouldn't it at some point become as easy as story-mode? Three bottles filled with red potions, obsidian spear or broad sword? I've read that permadeath mode apparently starts off with enemies that are one tier higher, do those enemies scale the same as in story mode, or do they scale harder?

I haven't actually survived for long enough to say.

I would assume that it gets a lot easier as you stabilize with better items and weapons as well as a larger health pool, and that's all right; there's still a heightened element of risk that isn't present in the standard mode. I don't see any problem with that; it's fine for the game to be at its most punishing at the start (when you lose the least progress) but let you stabilize to the point where you don't have to play quite so perfectly, but also stand to lose considerably more progress and time from dying.
 
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Oct 29, 2017
4,515
UK
The game definitely feels balanced around permadeath with story being a lot easier. I don't see that as a big problem, not everyone has played hundreds of hours of Necrodancer.
 

membran

Member
Oct 27, 2017
339
The reason it matters is because (a) everything costs double in permadeath (both in rupees and diamonds, as far as I can tell), and (b) you can't just accumulate diamonds from zones repopulating in the world after every death, so it's worthwhile to squeeze every drop you can out of every square on the map. There are simply fewer diamonds to go around, especially because you restart from zero.

Alright, I didn't know it was double cost for diamonds, too, I only read about the increased rupee cost.

And - the zones repopulate only after death? I could have sworn at least some screens would repopulate after some time (cleared screens, number of steps, whatever) themselves, but not being tied to player death. At least it seemed to me that they would as I teleported a bit around and was on a long gameplay strech without having been ko'ed, but those may have been repopulated by deaths from earlier sessions. In particular, I remember catching some fairies in a cave, leaving and re-entering immediately to see that there's still only one fairy around - then playing for half an hour without dying and upon return finding all three fairies respawned. Then again, I was a bit tired yesterday, I might confuse this as I haven't really been paying attention to the repopulation mechanic.

In Story Mode, I found the death shop pretty worthless anyway after I picked up the few essential things that actually persist (in my case, a heart container and a broadsword). Shovels and torches would drop right away whenever I respawned, so there was no point in buying them or anything else fragile or consumable, except in the rare case of a defensive ring, perhaps. So before too long, in Story Mode you're drowning in diamonds with nothing left to buy.

Yes, same here. I only ever bought the spear and the heart containers from there. I also didn't even bother with shovels and torches as it became clear that those would drop rather quickly the moment you had none.

I would assume that it gets a lot easier as you stabilize with better items and weapons as well as a larger health pool, and that's all right; there's still a heightened element of risk that isn't present in the standard mode. I don't see any problem with that; it's fine for the game to be at its most punishing at the start (when you lose the least progress) but let you stabilize to the point where you don't have to play quite so perfectly, but also stand to lose considerably more progress and time from dying.

Can't argue with that. Also, the final dungeon is quite a bit of a challenge. It was the first time (late-run, at least) the game made me use my red potions (plural).
 
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brink22

Member
Feb 22, 2018
237
I'm on the 2nd to last boss fight. Is there a way to get red potion with Diamonds instead of rupees? I'm all out of rupees from dying from this boss 5+ times. :(
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
To which unlockable game mode in Cadence are you referring to? I just beat the game yesterday and it didn't unlock anything for me, though I did totally forget to deliver any deku seeds at all. I think I found all of them but never realized until the credits rolled where I likely was meant to turn them in.
There's a fourth playable character you can unlock by giving Tingle 20 deku seeds.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
And - the zones repopulate only after death? I could have sworn at least some screens would repopulate after some time (cleared screens, number of steps, whatever) themselves, but not being tied to player death. At least it seemed to me that they would as I teleported a bit around and was on a long gameplay strech without having been ko'ed, but those have been repopulated by deaths from earlier sessions. In particular, I remember catching some fairies in a cave, leaving and re-entering immediately to see that there's still only one fairy around - then playing for half an hour without dying and upon return finding all three fairies respawned. Then again, I was a bit tired yesterday, I might confuse this as I haven't really been paying attention to the repopulation mechanic.

I'm not totally clear on the respawn conditions myself and will have to do a bit of testing to see if enemy resets occur based on time, steps, distance, or anything else. (As just one example, when there is a square involving a timed chest/stone, enemies keep respawning until you pass the challenge. Meanwhile, the Lost Woods constantly repopulate because the enemies present are also an indicator of where you are. There are edge cases like this all over the game, but I wasn't too attentive to them in my Story Mode run.)

What I meant to illustrate, though, was that in Story Mode, if you die and get bumped back a few squares to the nearest Sheikah Stone, it's no big deal as you're bound to pick up more diamonds on your way back to where you were, as everything repopulates upon death. So the supply of diamonds is naturally going to feel more plentiful. Players aren't going to deliberately die everywhere for the sake of farming diamonds (as there isn't a strong incentive to farm diamonds anyway), but it's no surprise that everyone winds up loaded with diamonds when death provides an ample surplus.
 

J-Wood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,799
A bit off topic, but I picked up the original crypt since it was on sale.

Is it...impossible to play this game with the switch pro controller? I'm trying to use the d pad and I'm constantly missing beats or dropping the combo and I don't understand what I'm doing wrong. Wondering if I've fonally hit a game to understand the complaints on the switch pro controller dpad
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
For some reason, Story mode is set to "Easy" difficulty, while Permadeath runs are a difficulty closer to what is in CotN. The reason why I call Story "easy" rather than "normal" is that there are items that are 25 rupees in Permadeath, but only 12 rupees in Story, which means that 25 is the base value and that Normal is half of that (and rounded down), rather than Permadeath being 2x.

So the game is likely designed around Permadeath's difficulty, then costs are halved and enemies are downscaled one tier for Story mode. Story mode already has a bit of a learning curve and rough start, and it was probably absolutely brutal before they made the easy mode changes.

Wait, what!? This is a literal freaking gamechanger for me! :O I'll definitely give permadeath mode a try next.

My biggest concern is that permadeath becomes irrelevant once you have so much health and potions that you won't ever die anyway. Does the game's difficulty scale enough to offset that?