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Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
The issue here is spending this amount on Sakura Wars.

Tencent Mobile games have big budget and they are high quality but at the same time they bet on successful IPs and their own stuff is pretty popular, what was Sega trying to do with Sakura Wars here?
If you don't invest into mobile you're less likely to be a hit. Expectations were also very likely high for a revival of the series too, it was a series that used to a be a big seller and had big multimedia presence in Japan. It was also one of the highly demanded franchises fans ask for a revival of in Sega's surveys. So they ended up making an anime, the new games for PS4, a system that hasn't been doing too hot in Japan, and a side game on mobile which seems to lack a of substance, continuity, or familiar faces (according to the article) since it's a game that takes place far in the future. They were all in for multimedia synergy which is not a bad strategy to have for this series, but nothing came of it. Budgeting was fine, everything else seems poorly managed.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
While this is terrible news, I think the series might have a "if all else fails" plan coming with a remake of the first game.

They have some high quality assets from this years title that have essentially recreated the environments needed for the first game, plus the last Sakura Wars trademark that we haven't seen anything from is Sakura Wars Ishin (meaning restoration) which very well could mean a remake.
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
Banned
Jul 14, 2018
23,601
The SW revival not having Switch as the lead platform or at the very least having a port planned is one of the most bizarre decisions SEGA has made in the last few years. I genuinely don't get it.
 

Bard

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,587
Could have put Skies of Arcadia on modern consoles for a fraction of that budget.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
I feel like people are being a bit overdramatic here about the console game, it sold decently enough I believe, in no way was it a flop.

But the rest this revival attempt? Yeah, it's gone poorly overall:
  • Anime that was both poorly made and no one watched.
  • Mobage that are neithef fun or visually appealing.
  • The stage shows never happening because of the pandemic.
  • And all of the above just culminating in low sales numbers on merch.
This whole endeavor feels like they wanted to do a multimedia project like the old days, but weren't sure of what audiences to cater to, or even how to allocate their budget properly (seriously, the CG animation in the show is honestly shameful).

I really hope they come through with this possible remake because the series deserves better.
 

Deleted member 51691

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 6, 2019
17,834
If anything, this failure shows that the only thing that makes FGO the success that it is is the character design and the Fate franchise itself. If you take the same game and instead you put a much less known franchise and somewhat bland character designs, the flaws that the gameplay has immediately shine through.
Yeah I tried FGO with fleeting interest in the Fate franchise (watched half of one of the anime adaptations) but it just wasn't very good for a mobile gacha. Boring combat with no auto-play and nothing story.
 

Zarckoh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,084
Mexico
From what I've read the game shares several big problems from FGO at launch. Shit stamina replenishment, incredibly low drop rates for both the gacha and materials required to level uncap characters, bad designs that don't even go with the IP and even managed to IP block foreigners something that even FGO didn't do since they are bad at evaluating server stress.

Delightworks was always a shit choice, only reason why FGO managed to recover was because of the Fate brand built by Typemoon.
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
While this is terrible news, I think the series might have a "if all else fails" plan coming with a remake of the first game.

They have some high quality assets from this years title that have essentially recreated the environments needed for the first game, plus the last Sakura Wars trademark that we haven't seen anything from is Sakura Wars Ishin (meaning restoration) which very well could mean a remake.

I guess we know what their first PS5 exclusive will be.=P
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,039
Nagoshi's refusal to put this on Switch is baffling. Meanwhile Konami making bank on Switch with old IP revivals. Glad there are financial consequences for Sega.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
IIRC it sold less than the entry that killed the series in Japan and in the UK it didn't even chart (sub 1000 copies). It didn't chart in any other sales chart we have by the way.
IIRC it sold less than the entry that killed the series in Japan and in the UK it didn't even chart (sub 1000 copies). It didn't chart in any other sales chart we have by the way.

Fortunately enough, it actually sold better in it's first week than So Long, My Love did in half a year (140k + digital)
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
I guess we know what their first PS5 exclusive will be.=P

I genuinely can see it happening given that the most counted for and highest priority criticism (by a large margin, I think 70%?) of Sakura Wars PS4 was not seeing the old cast.

They spent a lot of money developing the PS4 game too, I think it was one of the biggest development staffs they've had on a project. They're not going to do all the work for one game and never use it again.
 

Mr_F_Snowman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,937
The SW revival not having Switch as the lead platform or at the very least having a port planned is one of the most bizarre decisions SEGA has made in the last few years. I genuinely don't get it.

Higher ups in the company are seemingly ignorant / oblivious to the breadth and variety of genres Switch owners are interested in. To many (Nagoshi) it is a Sonic and Super Monkeyball only audience

This isn't a joke by the way its actually the reality of the situation
 

Oregano

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,878
Keyword being "as they had hoped." He said in the same sentence that Yakuza 7 (LAD) and Persona 5 Royal fell into the same category.

I think SEGA may have just had high expectations for everything during Fiscal Year 2019.

Wasn't that a separate thing, a note in an investor meeting about overall software being disappointing and it was P5R, Sakura Wars and Mario & Sonic shown?

The time I'm thinking of was Nagoshi specifically mentioning that they were disappointed in Sakura Wars, I could be mistaken.
 

batfax

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,431
Still surprised neither project stuck closer to the original turn based strategy gameplay. Fire Emblem Heroes being an obvious example of how this kind of thing could work for the mobile one, and adding a 3D layer to it would've immediately made it stand out. Whatever the combat was on the previous page had nice graphics, but it wasn't at all what I expected from Sakura Wars.
 

Buyao

Member
Oct 27, 2017
165
First game did what, 300k? Second did 500k, and the rest fell off a cliff. After the Saturn the franchise diminished RAPIDLY.

Part of it was because of bad timing though. Sakura War 3 released on Mar 22, 2001 and then one week later on Mar 31 Sega announced they're ending production for Dreamcast. Sakura War 4 was more like a standalone DLC in modern terms only made on minimal budget.
 

abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,962
Austin, TX
Wait, what? 3 billion yen translates to $30 million -- who the hell thought it was a good idea to spend that much on a mobile game?
To be fair, that isn't much money when a relatively successful mobile game can make that back in a few months and a big hit can do it in just a month. Since most of them have long tails as far as success goes, it would generally be able to make a massive profit if it didn't bomb.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,373
Part of it was because of bad timing though. Sakura War 3 released on Mar 22, 2001 and then one week later on Mar 31 Sega announced they're ending production for Dreamcast. Sakura War 4 was more like a standalone DLC in modern terms only made on minimal budget.

I'm saying this as a huge fan of the series. They mismanaged every single title after 2.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
Wasn't that a separate thing, a note in an investor meeting about overall software being disappointing and it was P5R, Sakura Wars and Mario & Sonic shown?

The time I'm thinking of was Nagoshi specifically mentioning that they were disappointed in Sakura Wars, I could be mistaken.

I remember what you're talking about now. Yeah, I just looked it up, and he said "he wishes it sold more." But then goes on to address the criticisms they received regarding the game (no full voice acting, no appearances by the old cast) and how they will be taking that feedback into how they work with the series going forward.

The way it was phrased and the fact that he understood the criticisms received gives me the feeling it was wishfulness, but he was still content with how it sold.

Better than what happened the year prior where Valkyria Chronicles 4 disappointed in sales, and no one at SEGA talked about that IP ever again since, not even in interviews.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
I'm saying this as a huge fan of the series. They mismanaged every single title after 2.

Remember the Sakura Wars World Project? And how the Sakura Wars PS2 remake and Sakura Wars 3 PS2 port were a part of it yet never left Japan?

Granted, the former almost did but Sony rejected the concept of a visual novel-like game being released on the PS2 outside of Japan, but I still wish they fought harder.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,373
V actually did pretty well on Wii in the US despite, you know, the franchise getting absolutely no play in the west beforehand.

The best selling western Sakura Wars games are...Project Cross Zone 1 and 2!
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
Higher ups in the company are seemingly ignorant / oblivious to the breadth and variety of genres Switch owners are interested in. To many (Nagoshi) it is a Sonic and Super Monkeyball only audience

This isn't a joke by the way its actually the reality of the situation

It still bugs me to this day how few third parties have tried to benefit from the Switch through ports or AA developed titles.

Like it's genuinely upsetting that my favorite year with the Switch was the year it released because that felt like the only time there was such third party support.
 

koutoru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,314
I liked the anime ova they made for it and I'm willing to try the mobile game if they do decide to localize it. Even though I don't typically play on mobile.
 

purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,444
UK
They do catastrophically in the first chapter, sure, but they'll turn it around!
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,970
Could you elaborate?

I only have some familiarity with the series but it seems there should be potential for modernisation similar to what IntSys did with Fire Emblem.

The core mechanics of a modern Fire Emblem game are:
  • A wide list of characters and options that lend to a wide variety of strategical options
  • A Support system that lets players learn more about characters, how they relate to each other and play matchmaker
At its fundamental core, it is a tile based turn based strategy RPG with a heavy resource management mechanic. That alone inherently makes the game almost infinitely repayable, see games like XCOM and the Jagged Alliance series. Some games in the series are stronger in that department:
  • Fire Emblem 4 has a lot of replay value due to the whole two generations aspect (aka Eugenics Simulator)
  • Fire Emblem 5 has some truly wacky gameplay mechanics that really, really force item management and the use of some crazy galaxy brained thinking
  • Fire Emblem 7 had a pretty good difficulty curve and a good inbuilt ranking system that forced you to plan and document everything
  • Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem, especially on higher difficulties, is all about class and resource management as well as unit positioning. It is one of the best in the series from a strategy standpoint.
At every Fire Emblem game's core are some pretty strong game design elements that allow for constant replayability even if you don't care about the characters at all. The game can be as easy or difficult as you want it to be. Remove the story and characters and you're still given a decent enough turn based strategy game. Fire Emblem Fates: Conquest is the poster child for a really good strategy game with incredibly shockingly bad characters and story.

The series started declining because Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance was stuck on Gamecube, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn was a sequel with some really troubled gameplay decisions (jumping between different factions, completely uneven difficulty curve, no true support mechanic) and the first DS remake was a super ugly bare bones remake of the very first Fire Emblem game which was never really that good. The US never got New Mystery of the Emblem, which was a substantial update to the original Mystery of the Emblem, which never sold well probably due to its seemingly simplistic gameplay (unless you ramp the difficulty way up) and honestly pretty ugly graphics.

Awakening saved the series in two ways. One, it was considerably higher budget with very attractive character designs. It also pushed the Support system extremely hard - all Supports were full voice acted, every character could marry everyone, there were children involved - which is incredibly attractive to more casual players who enjoy the whole storyline and relationship aspects of the games. The game practically sold itself thanks to the fan community. It widened the market considerably.

Sakura Taisen's problem is that its basically dating simulator/visual novel with some gameplay. This already introduces many problems:
  • You have to be very careful about introducing game mechanics that are overly complex or run into the risk of putting the player in a place where they cannot complete the game. The end result is that the Sakura Taisen strategy elements are incredibly simplistic for a game that consists of mechs...this isn't MechCommander. The gameplay is pretty much a chore in every game, the depth is incredibly low.
  • The major selling point of Sakura Taisen is the female cast (let's face it) and you're seriously banking of them doing heavy lifting here. Its honestly a pretty antiquated piece of game design honestly, the concept itself is already a fairly hard sell in the West and that's compounded by some of the character designs they've gone with.
I think in 2020 you have to make your mind up what you want to be and do it well. I'm not buying Sakura Taisen for a strategy game (well, action game now apparently). Any future Sakura Taisen game had to be a really good visual novel first and SEGA better pray to God that the community pushes the game as hard as 13 Sentinels or Yakuza.
 
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purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,444
UK
While this is terrible news, I think the series might have a "if all else fails" plan coming with a remake of the first game.

They have some high quality assets from this years title that have essentially recreated the environments needed for the first game, plus the last Sakura Wars trademark that we haven't seen anything from is Sakura Wars Ishin (meaning restoration) which very well could mean a remake.
I'm hoping this is the case.
 

PachaelD

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,518
I feel like people are being a bit overdramatic here about the console game, it sold decently enough I believe, in no way was it a flop.

But the rest this revival attempt? Yeah, it's gone poorly overall:
  • Anime that was both poorly made and no one watched.
  • Mobage that are neithef fun or visually appealing.
  • The stage shows never happening because of the pandemic.
  • And all of the above just culminating in low sales numbers on merch.
This whole endeavor feels like they wanted to do a multimedia project like the old days, but weren't sure of what audiences to cater to, or even how to allocate their budget properly (seriously, the CG animation in the show is honestly shameful).

I really hope they come through with this possible remake because the series deserves better.

In its heyday it was one of the successful cross-media IP in Japan and I feel contributed greatly to the trends (for cross-media) from the 2000s. Unfortunately whilst well-intentioned and with reasonable budget (DelightWorks could not have come from cheap) the revival series haven't really worked out but at least has had some traction for a Sega IP compared to the the Valkyria Chronicles IP which in its best days had a lot of Sakura Wars' spirit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
In its heyday it was one of the successful cross-media IP in Japan and I feel contributed greatly to the trends (for cross-media) from the 2000s. Unfortunately whilst well-intentioned and with reasonable budget (DelightWorks could not have come from cheap) the revival series haven't really worked out but at least has had some traction for a Sega IP compared to the the Valkyria Chronicles IP which in its best days had a lot of Sakura Wars' spirit.

Yep, just look at Level-5 and all their failed multimedia attempts since last generation.

You don't go into an IP planning to become multimedia, it needs to occur naturally, here's to hoping people learn.
 

lightning16

Member
May 17, 2019
1,763
I feel like people are being a bit overdramatic here about the console game, it sold decently enough I believe, in no way was it a flop.

But the rest this revival attempt? Yeah, it's gone poorly overall:
  • Anime that was both poorly made and no one watched.
  • Mobage that are neithef fun or visually appealing.
  • The stage shows never happening because of the pandemic.
  • And all of the above just culminating in low sales numbers on merch.
This whole endeavor feels like they wanted to do a multimedia project like the old days, but weren't sure of what audiences to cater to, or even how to allocate their budget properly (seriously, the CG animation in the show is honestly shameful).

I really hope they come through with this possible remake because the series deserves better.
I really hope you're right and things aren't as dire for the franchise as they seem. I enjoyed the new game a lot and it sucks to see so much of the franchise revival attempt floundering. I'm still frustrated they made the absolutely bizarre decision to make the game only on PS4 and to unnecessarily hamstring its sales potential for no reason at all. Guess I'll join in hoping for a remake of the first game.
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
Mobile gaming is a notoriously fickle market. Don't think dev budgets of that size are a good idea in that space.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,364
I really hope you're right and things aren't as dire for the franchise as they seem. I enjoyed the new game a lot and it sucks to see so much of the franchise revival attempt floundering. I'm still frustrated they made the absolutely bizarre decision to make the game only on PS4 and to unnecessarily hamstring its sales potential for no reason at all. Guess I'll join in hoping for a remake of the first game.

I imagine they had plans to port it, buuuut COVID set them back a bit. I mean, I don't think SEGA released a single other console game this year post-COVID outside of Puyo Puyo Tetris 2, and that game recycles A LOT from the first. Not to mention there being planned a bunch of Sonic 30th announcements that never happened as well.

I think the fact that the new game is still promoted often in SEGA's promo materials is a good sign. And people seemed really excited for the stage show before COVID too. I really don't see them halting the franchise over a mobage that was doomed from the start.
 

Refyref

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,025
That admittedly wasn't a bad idea itself, lots of games benefitted from boost thanks to the airing of a TV animation. But the basis just weren't there.
Especially because it also could have worked as a way to promote the game.
Unfortunately, they also screwed up there as well. Instead of the anime being an adaptation (or some introductory tie-in like the PSO2 anime) aired next to the game's release to serve as a promotion, it was supposedly a sequel to it and started airing the season after the game released. So they ended up with an anime that assumes you played the game it was supposed to get you to buy, airing significantly after the game was relevant in stores, and probably much cheaper in the second-hand market for those that did end up wanting it.
 
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Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I just feel like the company that has freaking Persona should be able to find a way to make this work.
 

Danthrax

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,467
Northeast Ohio
I feel like people are being a bit overdramatic here about the console game, it sold decently enough I believe, in no way was it a flop.

But the rest this revival attempt? Yeah, it's gone poorly overall:
  • Anime that was both poorly made and no one watched.
  • Mobage that are neithef fun or visually appealing.
  • The stage shows never happening because of the pandemic.
  • And all of the above just culminating in low sales numbers on merch.

The stage show happened in November and it's going to have another run in March.
 

Danthrax

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,467
Northeast Ohio
feels like the only series they have that is doing reasonably well these days is Yakuza... and that was after a whole decade of mismanagement...

This company needs to clean house their executives or sell off their IPs

It's not even in their top three. Persona, Total War and Football Manager are bigger cash cows for Sega. The company does not need to sell off its IPs.


That's Atlus though. Sega is gonna do their own thing

Sega entirely owns Atlus.
 

RLCC14

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,447
The reboot never getting a Switch port really was the stupidest thing, even if it was gonna run even worse than it does on PS4.
 

Kaze

Member
Oct 28, 2017
208
Why do people think all successful gacha games are based on big IP? There are plenty of new IP or games from niche series that are doing well on mobile. The only problem this game seems to have is being bad. It has an average score of 2.4/5 on the play store, which is pretty low.

Game-i is also not a good source btw. It's the VGChartz of app sales.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Wait, what? 3 billion yen translates to $30 million -- who the hell thought it was a good idea to spend that much on a mobile game?

Watching some videos it seems to be a "proper" game, with 3D visuals and such. I guess hindsight is 20/20, but it does seem like a really terrible idea to make a high-budget mobile game based on such a niche franchise.
 

Lindsay

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,143
The PS4 game was rather crappy an from what I've seen of the anime so far, thats just been okay. I welcomed a reboot but with how bland the characters are and how dumb the story and pacing of the game are, I can see why it'd all crash & burn. As for the mobile game, isn't it set like loooooong after all of the other SW games, meaning an all new cast to develop from scratch already? Some really poor decision making if ya ask me.

Sakura Taisen's problem is that its basically dating simulator/visual novel with some gameplay. This already introduces many problems:
  • You have to be very careful about introducing game mechanics that are overly complex or run into the risk of putting the player in a place where they cannot complete the game. The end result is that the Sakura Taisen strategy elements are incredibly simplistic for a game that consists of mechs...this isn't MechCommander. The gameplay is pretty much a chore in every game, the depth is incredibly low.
This is super true. I know I never got very far in SW5 cause I sucked at the strategy gameplay. It was really off putting an is a reason I'm not touching Aegis Rim, hype be damned! Meanwhile I was able to finish the new SW game due to its change in battling.
 
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