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Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
At what point are they still even consoles though? Xbox and rumored PlayStation is going the route of the Steam Machine.

I don't want my frigging computer with PlayStation OS on it. I want a PlayStation - it plays everything that releases for the next 7 years before a prominent leap happens to the next gen. The amount of money I save on hardware by owning a console is incredible. The iterative "box" plan ruins that.

iPhoneStation
 

Yerffej

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,560
Only because they said they don't care where we play the games.
But do you really think Playstation wants Xbox games on their console or are you messing around? Because I'm pretty sure in MS's current mood, they'd take their games playing on any platform to get a cut. It's the new strategy. You aren't being stonewalled by MS in that hypothetical, I can assure you.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
you're making the false assumption that devs are going to focus so much on the highest tier system (SeriesX) and will get the most out of it and not focus on the lowest common denominator, the cheapest and likely highest selling unit. The Series X is probably $599+
Nope, third parties would want to ensure their games will be able to stand along the rest
 

pootybutt

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 14, 2020
95
But at that point you have to ask if it's it even worth all the time, effort, dev resources and money to bother, especially when it might be taking resources and devs away from a next gen version, and when the original vision and game has to be so spectacularly hampered or scaled back to make it feasible for the much older hardware.

Lest we forget the visual identity, effects, number of NPCs, scale, scope, level design, lighting, no loading single camera, character model detailing, animations and all the rest, are all fundamental to the new God of War experience.

Counterpoint: What studios even are likely to plausibly have game releases in the time frame in question? What games or potential games would we even really be talking about here, and are those games necessarily the types that need to totally alter their fundamental designs in order to 'kinda work' on X1?

If we are talking about a literally handful of games, which I argue we are, and if those games are already designed to scale on PC anyhow, which I argue they likely are, then what kinda resources are really needed? And how would that really compare to the resources used to scale the game to run on PC anyhow? Is it likely to be drastically different? I dunno, but I'm doubtful it would change things much. Also, the payoff might be crucial to MS blurring the lines between gens and promoting their generation-less strategy. So it might well be worth whatever effort is needed imho. I am arguing that it wouldn't require all that much effort across the board and that potential payoff could be big for them. /shrugs

The visual identity of GoW, aka the art direction, is not drastically held back by weaker hardware imho. You can find ways to reduce quality and fake every thing you listed there to make it run on a much weaker machine if it absolutely had to. Will it retain its 'identity'? That doesn't even make sense to frame it in those terms. If the core element of a game that makes it a special experience is its visuals, those can all get dialed back for weaker hardware and if it isn't a great experience, who cares? MS likely won't as it would only serve to push those X1 gamers to upgrade to XSX for the 'real high end experience'.

I think folks here GREATLY underestimate how far down ya can scale visuals when ya aren't all that worried about making that version marketable and might even wanna contrast it with the XSX version. When increasing fidelity ya run up against diminished returns across just about all aspects of the art assets, but going backwards to decrease fidelity the opposite happens. Going from 1080p-->4k costs a lot more than just 4 times the computing power usually. Going from 4k-->1080p opens up a lot more than x4 computing power to contend with weaker specs. With that in mind, if the game is limited by GPU, simply going from 4k/60fps-->1080p/30fps should basically erase the hardware delta all at once. On the storage side of things, adding in tricks to hide loading as stuff streams in is not an alien design choice for modern devs and using lower res art assets also helps tremendously with that, as does using fewer objects on screen and thus fewer textures. On the CPU end, lower framerates means big help to CPU resources and devs can reduce AI and physics as needed too as well as do fewer draw calls, etc.
 

pootybutt

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 14, 2020
95
Help me, what even is your narrative at this point?

I don't have a narrative...? I'm arguing that it makes sense to go from giving out unit sales-->MAU's-->overall revenue as critical info for devs. I'm also arguing that not bragging about unit sales is indicative of how they no longer view that as a meaningful metric for investors and has nothing to do with perceived competitiveness. If consoles sales show growth, they will brag about it as that is helpful info for investors.

For instance, if XSX outsold PS5 this holiday but did worse than X1 or 360 launches they would frame the victory over Sony's sales as an element of 'growth' and a comeback but still not give real numbers since compared to 360/X1 it would not be growth. Sony will likely do the same thing if they sell weaker than PS4 (almost guaranteed imho) out of the gate, even if they outpace XSX. Growth is what matters now to investors more than anything. Unit sales is only leaned on when it helps PR, but investors don't have reason to care much about those anymore. Especially for MS with xCloud and with games being cross gen to a greater extent this time around.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Counterpoint: What studios even are likely to plausibly have game releases in the time frame in question? What games or potential games would we even really be talking about here, and are those games necessarily the types that need to totally alter their fundamental designs in order to 'kinda work' on X1?

If we are talking about a literally handful of games, which I argue we are, and if those games are already designed to scale on PC anyhow, which I argue they likely are, then what kinda resources are really needed? And how would that really compare to the resources used to scale the game to run on PC anyhow? Is it likely to be drastically different? I dunno, but I'm doubtful it would change things much. Also, the payoff might be crucial to MS blurring the lines between gens and promoting their generation-less strategy. So it might well be worth whatever effort is needed imho. I am arguing that it wouldn't require all that much effort across the board and that potential payoff could be big for them. /shrugs

The visual identity of GoW, aka the art direction, is not drastically held back by weaker hardware imho. You can find ways to reduce quality and fake every thing you listed there to make it run on a much weaker machine if it absolutely had to. Will it retain its 'identity'? That doesn't even make sense to frame it in those terms. If the core element of a game that makes it a special experience is its visuals, those can all get dialed back for weaker hardware and if it isn't a great experience, who cares? MS likely won't as it would only serve to push those X1 gamers to upgrade to XSX for the 'real high end experience'.

I think folks here GREATLY underestimate how far down ya can scale visuals when ya aren't all that worried about making that version marketable and might even wanna contrast it with the XSX version. When increasing fidelity ya run up against diminished returns across just about all aspects of the art assets, but going backwards to decrease fidelity the opposite happens. Going from 1080p-->4k costs a lot more than just 4 times the computing power usually. Going from 4k-->1080p opens up a lot more than x4 computing power to contend with weaker specs. With that in mind, if the game is limited by GPU, simply going from 4k/60fps-->1080p/30fps should basically erase the hardware delta all at once. On the storage side of things, adding in tricks to hide loading as stuff streams in is not an alien design choice for modern devs and using lower res art assets also helps tremendously with that, as does using fewer objects on screen and thus fewer textures. On the CPU end, lower framerates means big help to CPU resources and devs can reduce AI and physics as needed too as well as do fewer draw calls, etc.

Historically there have always been a handful of AAA next gen launch window exclusives on these platforms, and by in large they end up being arguably the best next gen graphical showcases that exist at the time, eg titles like Forza Motorsport 5, Ryse, Killzone Shadow Fall, InFamous Second Son, DRIVECLUB etc.

Also, having to scale with PC's doesn't necessarily mean having to scale down to hardware as weak as the past gen launch consoles. The minimum PC hardware requirements for the said games could still be closer to the next gen systems in terms of requiring SSD drives and far better GPU's and CPU's compared to the Xbox One and PS4.
 

Dewin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
627
The media is so sure about Xbox winning next gen already

Its the same usual suspects that push these type of advertorials around this time. "Don't read too much into...", "The whole can be more than the sum of its parts", etc etc yada yada. Its all about pushing a narrative. There are no facts here. Just whishes and assumptions.
 

Landy828

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,413
Clemson, SC
People really have a tough time understanding PC gaming across the last 20+ years apparently.

How hard is it to understand games scaling, but still being able to build to the highest end first? I didn't make it past the first couple pages before I just wanted to move on.

You can build a game that darn near crashes low end hardware, and then tweak different "settings" to play on lesser systems. I've only been doing this since at least the 90s (my PC access was very limited in the 80s). Not that hard to grasp...cracks me up.

Developing for different SKU's isn't as simple as flipping a switch in the options menu, takes time and resources

Time and resources that hundreds of developers have been applying to millions of games for decades. 🤯
 

Deleted member 35631

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 8, 2017
1,139
It's not as easy as having a Netflix for games. Movies don't have to be programmed to work with different button layouts, or different specs in each device. movies and music just work because it's easy and require very little effort to port a movie to HD or to 4K, and they just have to do it once for every device. With games, they need to be tested and programmed for each different console or device.

Also, I don't think that the iPhone model would work with gaming. Firstly because of the reason above. If you have many devices, it's going to be harder for developers, but also because the quality would go down fast.

i really hope Sony keeps believing in console generations, because that is what works.

just look at how horrible Windows OS, Android, iOS and Mac OS have gotten since they moved to a yearly model. It's just not enough time for developers to test everything and also not enough time to actually implement new and exciting features.
 

Sparks

Senior Games Artist
Verified
Dec 10, 2018
2,879
Los Angeles
Honestly to me it always felt like Microsoft bowed out of the console race when they announced all their games will be on PC as well. They are in the PC market now, not necessarily the console market... and the new Xbox shows that it's just a PC like device for those that don't want to build a big beefy PC. The Xbox is basically an OS at this point.

Gamepass is genius though and a great move by them.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,364
Historically there have always been a handful of AAA next gen launch window exclusives on these platforms, and by in large they end up being arguably the best next gen graphical showcases that exist at the time, eg titles like Forza Motorsport 5, Ryse, Killzone Shadow Fall, InFamous Second Son, DRIVECLUB etc.

Also, having to scale with PC's doesn't necessarily mean having to scale down to hardware as weak as the past gen launch consoles. The minimum PC hardware requirements for the said games could still be closer to the next gen systems in terms of requiring SSD drives and far better GPU's and CPU's compared to the Xbox One and PS4.

These are all graphical showcases, but in terms of gameplay, none of them really introduced anything that couldnt be done on previous generations- maybe with the exception of Forza 5s AI. And the first generation of Drivatar was problematic to the point that many preferred the old AI.

Graphics are scalable. There's nothing that prevents microsofts crossgen games from being graphical showcases on Series X. Designing around the highest graphical settings, then toning things down is typical of gross platform development... and its how MS studios have been working since XB1X became a thing.

Gameplay systems, however, may not necessarily be so scalable. I'm skeptical of the notion that many launch games on either platform will be implementing systems that are impossible without the new hardware. These features are new ground, and as such will require much time and investment to convert into quality experiences. I don't imagine publishers will want to launch these games without taking the time to polish them nor will they want to release them during the period where their sales are limited by the supply-constrained installed base.
 
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pootybutt

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 14, 2020
95
Historically there have always been a handful of AAA next gen launch window exclusives on these platforms, and by in large they end up being arguably the best next gen graphical showcases that exist at the time, eg titles like Forza Motorsport 5, Ryse, Killzone Shadow Fall, InFamous Second Son, DRIVECLUB etc.

Also, having to scale with PC's doesn't necessarily mean having to scale down to hardware as weak as the past gen launch consoles. The minimum PC hardware requirements for the said games could still be closer to the next gen systems in terms of requiring SSD drives and far better GPU's and CPU's compared to the Xbox One and PS4.

Right, but MS already said there would still be a few of those even from first parties (Halo specifically cited but Booty said 1-2 so likely Forza as well). That does not preclude X1 versions existing with downgraded assets/tech and extra design work. Tomb Raider is an example where extra design work from a different studio made a 360 version possible. And Ryse was a game initially designed for 360. All the games you cited btw are generally considered 'next gen' only due to their visuals. Visuals can easily be pared WAY back this time around for X1. Again though, you NEED to wrestle with my point about what studios/games Booty's comments even apply to in order to have a credible position.

My point about these studios having plenty of PC dev experience is moreso that they already have experience scaling things down on the tech front and somewhat on the design front too. Loads of PC games have more stuff on screen (for example) than their console counterparts. And what are you expecting the SSD's to provide that can't be scaled down? Higher detail fidelity, higher res textures, more stuff on screen at once, larger game worlds...all of those can be scaled down drastically. Will it be the same experience? Of course not, but Booty never suggested the X1 versions are gonna be comparable to the XSX version. He merely suggested whatever games this applies to would run on X1 in some form.

This entire debate is worthless without first acknowledging what games and studios this would even apply to in the first place! Context matters here, so we really should start with that. Can you tell me what studios you think are plausibly gonna be positioned to release a game from XGS between Fall 2020 and year end 2021? Make me a list please. There genuinely aren't as many as folks seem to be imagining.
 
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Bitch Pudding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,202
Are we back to "it's all about settings!"?!

damn, Hellblade 2 cannot launch soon enough so we can all agree that certain games are definitely impossible on older consoles...
 

pootybutt

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 14, 2020
95
And you think console games will have customization options as the PC version? Lol I think I have a bridge to sell you

No, not customization options necessarily but there will surely be different versions. Again, this is not some alien concept. It's been the norm across the industry for a very long time now. Some folks here act like they have never endured a console transition before.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,364
Are we back to "it's all about settings!"?!

damn, Hellblade 2 cannot launch soon enough so we can all agree that certain games are definitely impossible on older consoles...

I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

The question is: at launch can should we expect get games that are impossible on older consoles or will we simply be getting visuals that are impossible on older consoles

I think history tells us it will be the latter for a while.
 

pootybutt

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 14, 2020
95
Are we back to "it's all about settings!"?!

damn, Hellblade 2 cannot launch soon enough so we can all agree that certain games are definitely impossible on older consoles...

That is not the argument being made. The argument being made is about how devs can dial back tech to scale to X1 for a literal handful of titles between XSX launch and year end 2021. Hellblade 2 could also scale back to run on X1 probably. Would it resemble the stuff we saw thus far? Not even close. But some facsimile of it could 'run', sure. Does that mean they should? No. It's a further off game that is well beyond the presumed transition period in question. MS won't have any real need to go that route with that title imho.
 

pootybutt

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 14, 2020
95
I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

The question is: at launch can should we expect get games that are impossible on older consoles or will we simply be getting visuals that are impossible on older consoles

I think history tells us it will be the latter for a while.

Part of the problem in this debate is that there is no meaningful context. Booty's comments most likely only apply meaningfully to a couple games for all we know. And who knows if those games even would merit sophisticated utilization of the SSD, RT or the CPU in the first place.

Also, people want to immediately jump to visuals, which is a super weak argument disprovable easily by just looking at how existing game assets can scale. The much more compelling case is in the SSD-dependent open world case and the CPU-dependent AI case. Folks should give up on the visuals front because that is a losing argument. The others are much tougher, though likely not impossible imho.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,364
Part of the problem in this debate is that there is no meaningful context. Booty's comments most likely only apply meaningfully to a couple games for all we know. And who knows if those games even would merit sophisticated utilization of the SSD, RT or the CPU in the first place.

Also, people want to immediately jump to visuals, which is a super weak argument disprovable easily by just looking at how existing game assets can scale. The much more compelling case is in the SSD-dependent open world case and the CPU-dependent AI case. Folks should give up on the visuals front because that is a losing argument. The others are much tougher, though likely not impossible imho.

I agree... the debate over the upperbound potential of cross-gen games is pretty useless. Ive seen people subscribed to the idea that MS isnt working on next-gen only titles. I've seen people subscribe to the idea that MS is only allowing crossgen titles on the platform. Really, all that has been suggested is that titles between now and at least the launch of XSX will all support the family of devices. It COULD be up to a year afterwards when MS drops their first exclusive, but we don't know atm.

The assumption that MS developers aren't even working on next-gen games due to policy, is crazy. I suspect that at the end of the day, The cross-gen period wont be long enough to matter.
 

pootybutt

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 14, 2020
95
I agree... the debate over the upperbound potential of cross-gen games is pretty useless. Ive seen people subscribed to the idea that MS isnt working on next-gen only titles. I've seen people subscribe to the idea that MS is only allowing crossgen titles on the platform. Really, all that has been suggested is that titles between now and at least the launch of XSX will all support the family of devices. It COULD be up to a year afterwards when MS drops their first exclusive, but we don't know atm.

The assumption that MS developers aren't even working on next-gen games due to policy, is crazy. I suspect that at the end of the day, The cross-gen period wont be long enough to matter.

One wonders if this narrative will persist long enough to handicap Xbox the same way the 'always online, no used games allowed' (false) narrative did.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
I agree... the debate over the upperbound potential of cross-gen games is pretty useless. Ive seen people subscribed to the idea that MS isnt working on next-gen only titles. I've seen people subscribe to the idea that MS is only allowing crossgen titles on the platform. Really, all that has been suggested is that titles between now and at least the launch of XSX will all support the family of devices. It COULD be up to a year afterwards when MS drops their first exclusive, but we don't know atm.

The assumption that MS developers aren't even working on next-gen games due to policy, is crazy. I suspect that at the end of the day, The cross-gen period wont be long enough to matter.
Im simply lost for words with how some deliberately delude themselves because the goal MS have a shot at achieving is one that could put them in a healthy position, and that inconvenient. So in the likelihood they achieve success, they'll end up doing harm to the industry. Christ. To even think XSX isn't going to provide next gen offering is a sign your already down that rabbit hole.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,364
One wonders if this narrative will persist long enough to handicap Xbox the same way the 'always online, no used games allowed' (false) narrative did.

I don't think so. In this case, MS can easily correct the narrative when they start showing games and providing release dates all - of the debate will become mute.

At e3, We'll see a bunch of games. we'll know exactly what hardware each game targets. we'll see how their crossgen games stack up against everyone else's offerings in terms of visuals and scope. And we'll likely get a glimpse of MS' first nextgen exclusive, even if it doesn't arrive day one.

With the xbox one launch - microsoft couldnt explain why their more expensive console was less powerful and had a complicated software license system - and they weren't even ready to explain in detail how license transfers would work or why consumers should want this. Their communication was so bad, controlling the narrative was impossible.

This is a layup in comparison.
 
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pootybutt

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 14, 2020
95
I don't think so. In this case, MS can easily correct the narrative when they start showing games and providing release dates all - of the debate will become mute.

At e3, We'll see a bunch of games. we'll know exactly what hardware each game targets. we'll see how their crossgen games stack up against everyone else's offerings in terms of visuals and scope. And we'll likely get a glimpse of MS' first nextgen exclusive, even if it doesn't arrive day one.

With the xbox one launch - microsoft couldnt explain why their more expensive console was less powerful and had a complicated software license system - and they weren't even ready to explain in detail how license transfers would work or why consumers should want this. Their communication was so bad, controlling the narrative was impossible.

This is a layup in comparison.

Perhaps. But remember that even last time around after MS thoroughly corrected the record on their Family Share plans and used game policy and not-actually-always-online policy they still never did change many minds. Actual facts got totally washed away by the overwhelming narrative drum beat. What's to say this time people will take MS at their word when they show something and claim it is next-gen only? I grant you that their messaging thus far has been perfect but the one exception is for Booty's comments, which muddied the waters enough to let a counter-narrative start taking over. I personally would find it helpful for those comments to be clarified a bit for the sake of cleaner discussion.
 
Dec 13, 2018
1,521
So... they are becoming a third party developer that also has a console.
Considering all the games are available on PC (I think?) and the Xbox's will update faster moving forward. It seems like they are a third party developer that also sells pc's with a custom os. Like valve wanted to do with steam boxes. As long as the games are good and plentiful who gives a shit, Sony does the whole console idea better anyway.