Bruce Lee's daughter disheartened by Tarantino's portrayal of father in Once Upon A Time In Hollywood

[Bitmap Frogs]

And now we've moved to touting "artistic vision" as if this one scene is the crux upon the entire movies message and theme is built upon. I'm absolutely not suggesting that a director submit every creative decision to a committee. I'm saying they should examine their own work as they create it, for problematic elements and eliminate those elements in the case that it's not intentional in delivering the messaging of the story. Turning Bruce Lee into a caricature is not necessary at all and using him as a vehicle to "stablishing badassery" is also unnecessary.

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So you don't want a committee, you want self censorship. I still don't buy that.

And again, I'd argue that beating the fuck out of Bruce Lee is one hell of a way of stablishing badassery. I would also have accepted beating the fuck out of Clint Eastwood but sadly too many people think of him as a well preserved mummy that gets a director credit once in a while instead of Dirty Harry.

But you see, at this point the conversation has devolved into a conversation about submitting creative output to your own decency standards. And I'd argue that Tarantino shouldn't do that. Specially when there isn't even a consensus on wether jobbering Lee is actually racist.

 

[Deleted member 12352]

Sounds... weird.

Haven't seen the movie yet though, so I'll judge after I do.

Oh shit, they turned that Evilore "I could beat Bruce Lee" post into an scene? Classic Tarantino.

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lolwut?

Scumfuck couldn't land a hit on Lee even if he tried taking him by surprise in the shower.

 

[Jest]

So you don't want a committee, you want self censorship. I still don't buy that.

And again, I'd argue that beating the fuck out of Bruce Lee is one hell of a way of stablishing badassery. I would also have accepted beating the fuck out of Clint Eastwood but sadly too many people think of him as a well preserved mummy that gets a director credit once in a while instead of Dirty Harry.

But you see, at this point the conversation has devolved into a conversation about submitting creative output to your own decency standards. And I'd argue that Tarantino shouldn't do that. Specially when there isn't even a consensus on wether jobbering Lee is actually racist.

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If you view consciously making an effort not to perpetuate harmful stereotypes as "self censorship," then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

There is also never a consensus on racial controversies. But when a considerable amount of people are telling you that something is harmful, it's worth listening to with an open mind rather than critiquing and debating the validity of their point of view.

 

[Valiant]

You did say you gonna check out of here. But hey, semantics right, maybe on your end, checking out of here doesnt mean checking out of here. Its besides the point. Who are these 3 easily?

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Again you aren't understanding. Did you see yourself quoted when I said I was checking out of the conversation? No. Because it was in response to some one else.

 

[Volimar]

So you don't want a committee, you want self censorship. I still don't buy that.

And again, I'd argue that beating the fuck out of Bruce Lee is one hell of a way of stablishing badassery. I would also have accepted beating the fuck out of Clint Eastwood but sadly too many people think of him as a well preserved mummy that gets a director credit once in a while instead of Dirty Harry.

But you see, at this point the conversation has devolved into a conversation about submitting creative output to your own decency standards. And I'd argue that Tarantino shouldn't do that. Specially when there isn't even a consensus on wether jobbering Lee is actually racist.

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An aside. There's almost never a consensus that something is racist. Personally if Asian Americans are telling me a portrayal of an Asian American is racist, I'd tend to lend that credence, especially when people that knew him take issue with the portrayal as well.

 

[BuckRogers]

There's a few reasons. Mainly Cliff wearing the same clothes that he was wearing that day and the scene feeling really off coming from Tarantino but perfectly right coming from Cliff's imagination.

You see Cliff remembering what Rick said about it being unlikely he'd be hired as stunt double due to Randy and his wife working the shoot, then it cuts to Cliff on a TV set wearing the same outfit and having Rick trying to convince Randy to hire Cliff despite the fact that he and his wife don't like him. He ends up giving him a shot anyway, but Cliff fucks it up and makes Randy's wife even more mad at him than she already was, then it cuts back to Cliff on the roof saying something to the effect of "Yeah, that seems about right" and he decides not to go back.

I realize that Bruce Lee is referred to as "the lead" whereas we later find out the lead is Timothy Olyphant's character, but I figured Cliff didn't know anything about the show and was just imagining *a* lead, using a popular badass actor from that time to fill in the blank.

This is how I took it, also because this scene makes no sense coming from Tarantino. He's a huge fan of Asian cinema and he made fucking Kill Bill. Why would he show disrespect like that to a beloved figure who inspired generations, including Tarantino, and died tragically? He's not portrayed negatively at any other point in the film. He's shown training others with a smile on his face and not being an arrogant douche. But would Cliff, an aging stuntman with his career in the gutter, daydream about beating up a popular young actor doing his own stunts? Absolutely, and the scene would tell you more about his character than "He's such a badass that he can even beat Bruce Lee."

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That's not at all how I saw that scene. I saw it as Cliff thinking about Randy not wanting him, and then thinking back to why that is, where we discovered that Randy already took a chance on him despite his history, and Cliff fucked up by fighting with the lead and damaging Randy's wife's car.

Cliff is dropping Rick off for a Western, but is wearing clothes that are clearly not appropriate for a Western in the scene with Lee.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

If you view consciously making an effort not to perpetuate harmful stereotypes as "self censorship," then I honestly don't know what to tell you.

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I'm going to quote a Bruce Lee biographer:

"Lee biographer Matthew Polly agreed, saying that Tarantino, as is his style, took liberties with how he portrayed Lee. "Bruce Lee was often a cocky, strutting, braggart, but Tarantino took those traits and exaggerated them to the point of a 'SNL' caricature," Polly said. "

Cocky, strutting and braggart... were those harmful stereotypes often used against asians in cinema? No, that was Lee's character.

There is also never a consensus on racial controversies. But when a considerable amount of people are telling you that something is harmful, it's worth listening to with an open mind rather than critiquing and debating the validity of their point of view.

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Yeah I don't buy the mob rule argument neither. And believe me I have an open mind, but all I'm hearing is "Tarantino should self censor becacuse of people say he should" and "Lee losing is bad because of reasons". The only substantial argument so far is that of using Lee in what amounts to a power fantasy trip predicated on a POC defeat. And I'd argue that yes indeed that I would consider that problematic not by itself but if it was within a problematic context (if, for example, the movie displayed those negative stereotypes). By itself, a white man winning a fight against a POC is not racist - unless there's a consistent racist portrayal in the movie (classic example: western movies and native americans).

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

I really don't think a short scene by the foot-loving director who machine-gunned Adolf Hitler and blew up slavery is going to hurt his reputation.

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That's kind of the crux of the problem right there. People are intentionally being obtuse of the problematic issue because "Well, Tarantino made ______ in the past, so he gets a free pass."

 

[dancingphlower]

That's kind of the crux of the problem right there. People are intentionally being obtuse of the problematic issue because "Well, Tarantino made ______ in the past, so he gets a free pass."

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Tarantino made a movie about a white woman killing a bunch of faceless Asians while wearing Bruce Lee's jumpsuit so he's obviously a big fan of Lee.

 

[Molecule]

What's confusing to me is why that character wasn't called Bruce Lee. I figured it was supposed to be him but he was called something else. Other characters were called by their real life name (who they are based on) like Shannon Tate for example.

 

[UltraMagnus]

What's confusing to me is why that character wasn't called Bruce Lee. I figured it was supposed to be him but he was called something else. Other characters were called by their real life name (who they are based on) like Shannon Tate for example.

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That part actually fit. He was "Kato" at the time, no one really knew who the fuck "Bruce Lee" was at that time because he wasn't a movie star yet.

 

[Brewm0nt]

There's a few reasons. Mainly Cliff wearing the same clothes that he was wearing that day and the scene feeling really off coming from Tarantino but perfectly right coming from Cliff's imagination.

You see Cliff remembering what Rick said about it being unlikely he'd be hired as stunt double due to Randy and his wife working the shoot, then it cuts to Cliff on a TV set wearing the same outfit and having Rick trying to convince Randy to hire Cliff despite the fact that he and his wife don't like him. He ends up giving him a shot anyway, but Cliff fucks it up and makes Randy's wife even more mad at him than she already was, then it cuts back to Cliff on the roof saying something to the effect of "Yeah, that seems about right" and he decides not to go back.

I realize that Bruce Lee is referred to as "the lead" whereas we later find out the lead is Timothy Olyphant's character, but I figured Cliff didn't know anything about the show and was just imagining *a* lead, using a popular badass actor from that time to fill in the blank.

This is how I took it, also because this scene makes no sense coming from Tarantino. He's a huge fan of Asian cinema and he made fucking Kill Bill. Why would he show disrespect like that to a beloved figure who inspired generations, including Tarantino, and died tragically? He's not portrayed negatively at any other point in the film. He's shown training others with a smile on his face and not being an arrogant douche. But would Cliff, an aging stuntman with his career in the gutter, daydream about beating up a popular young actor doing his own stunts? Absolutely, and the scene would tell you more about his character than "He's such a badass that he can even beat Bruce Lee."

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Hm, I suppose him wearing the same clothing is suspect, but the point about "the lead" being Bruce Lee doesn't make sense, because it's not showing them on the set of the western that day. Both Rick and Cliff are wearing tuxedo-type outfits, which indicates this is for something else entirely, and is likely a flashback. Whether or not it disrespects Bruce, or is unrealistic due to the car damage, doesn't inherently mean it's not meant to be real.

 

[Molecule]

That part actually fit. He was "Kato" at the time, no one really knew who the fuck "Bruce Lee" was at that time because he wasn't a movie star yet.

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Now that makes sense. Thank you

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

Tarantino made a movie about a white woman killing a bunch of faceless Asians while wearing Bruce Lee's jumpsuit so he's obviously a big fan of Lee.

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And speaking as someone who, for the most part likes Tarantino's filmography, warts and all, dude is legit the personification of the "White Ally" because he, and much of his fanbase, always gets weirdly defensive when he gets called out.

 

[UltraMagnus]

Hm, I suppose him wearing the same clothing is suspect, but the point about "the lead" being Bruce Lee doesn't make sense, because it's not showing them on the set of the western that day. Both Rick and Cliff are wearing tuxedo-type outfits, which indicates this is for something else entirely, and is likely a flashback. Whether or not it disrespects Bruce, or is unrealistic due to the car damage, doesn't inherently mean it's not meant to be real.

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The scene is basically

Dalton & Booth circa 1967 or 1968 are working on the set of "The Green Hornet" (hence the tuxedos) likely as a one-off character. Booth during a break in shooting gets into with Bruce Lee, who is the co-lead of the show and damages the director's wife's car, since the wife doesn't like Booth to begin with, he effectively gets banned from working on any shoot with that director (Kurt Russell).

Booth is thinking back to this event while on the roof and sheepishly shrugs his shoulders in an admission that he probably did deserve to not be allowed on the set.

That's how I saw it anyway.

 

[Brewm0nt]

The scene is basically

Dalton & Booth circa 1967 or 1968 are working on the set of "The Green Hornet" (hence the tuxedos). Booth during a break in shooting gets into with Bruce Lee, who is the co-lead of the show and damages the director's wife's car, since the wife doesn't like Booth to begin with, he effectively gets banned from working those sets.

Booth is thinking back to this event while on the roof and sheepishly shrugs his shoulders in an admission that he probably did deserve to not be allowed on the set.

That's how I saw it anyway.

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Right, that's obviously what it is, and I don't get why so many are bending over backwards to give greater meaning to it/to discount it. It's times like this that I wonder if the collective internet even pays attention to what they watch lol

 

[Zoe]

What a stupid post. Yea, but I dont recall any PoC with major speaking parts in the movie other than Bruce. You could think of 3 easily
I asked for receipts. And you say "in the movie" lmfao... wtf..

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The theater manager (?) had the most. I can't remember if the guy from Westworld had lines, but he was noticeable enough that I instantly recognized him. There were other no-name hispanic roles who probably don't get more than a second of time.

While watching the movie, I thought one of the Manson girls was Asian, but she either isn't or doesn't make it part of her identity. The real life person was white.

 

[F2BBm3ga]

Hm, I suppose him wearing the same clothing is suspect

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Hes not wearing the same clothes

In the flashback hes wearing this before changing into the tux

While thinking about the flashback in the present he is wearing this

 

[Jest]

I'm going to quote a Bruce Lee biographer:

"Lee biographer Matthew Polly agreed, saying that Tarantino, as is his style, took liberties with how he portrayed Lee. "Bruce Lee was often a cocky, strutting, braggart, but Tarantino took those traits and exaggerated them to the point of a 'SNL' caricature," Polly said. "

Cocky, strutting and braggart... were those harmful stereotypes often used against asians in cinema? No, that was Lee's character.

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The caricature and one of the films main protagonists insults combine to amount to a harmful depiction of an icon, yes.

Yeah I don't buy the mob rule argument neither. And believe me I have an open mind, but all I'm hearing is "Tarantino should self censor becacuse of people say he should" and "Lee losing is bad because of reasons". The only substantial argument so far is that of using Lee in what amounts to a power fantasy trip predicated on a POC defeat. And I'd argue that yes indeed that I would consider that problematic not by itself but if it was within a problematic context (if, for example, the movie displayed those negative stereotypes). By itself, a white man winning a fight against a POC is not racist - unless there's a consistent racist portrayal in the movie (classic example: western movies and native americans).

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I find it incredible that you extrapolate people stating that this scene is harmful to them and perpetuates damaging stereotypes as "mob rule." And looking to dissect, dismiss, and give disqualifying factors to people's reasons is not being open. It's being skeptical.

Who won the fight isn't even a part of this conversation or the actual complaints about the depiction.

 

[UltraMagnus]

The theater manager (?) had the most. I can't remember if the guy from Westworld had lines, but he was noticeable enough that I instantly recognized him. There were other no-name hispanic roles who probably don't get more than a second of time.

While watching the movie, I thought one of the Manson girls was Asian, but she either isn't or doesn't make it part of her identity. The real life person was white.

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Weren't all of Manson's followers white?

That aspect of the film wasn't really that far off at all. Hollywood was a pretty freaking white place in '69 for people working in the actual industry. Bruce Lee himself voiced his frustration about working in Hollywood of that time for that very reason.

 

[Zoe]

Weren't all of Manson's followers white?

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They were. I didn't know anybody outside of Manson going into the film though, so I didn't assume she was white.

 

[Froyo Love]

So you don't want a committee, you want self censorship. I still don't buy that.

And again, I'd argue that beating the fuck out of Bruce Lee is one hell of a way of stablishing badassery. I would also have accepted beating the fuck out of Clint Eastwood but sadly too many people think of him as a well preserved mummy that gets a director credit once in a while instead of Dirty Harry.

But you see, at this point the conversation has devolved into a conversation about submitting creative output to your own decency standards. And I'd argue that Tarantino shouldn't do that. Specially when there isn't even a consensus on wether jobbering Lee is actually racist.

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yo, Tarantino gave us his artistic vision, and some individuals are responding saying "this part of it is shit"

how do group decency standards enter into this at all? do you not see any irony in citing consensus when you're downplaying the people who think it's racist?

 

[Brewm0nt]

Hes not wearing the same clothes

In the flashback hes wearing this before changing into the tux

While thinking about the flashback in the present he is wearing this

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Ok then yeah, I thought that wasn't correct, but I remembered yellow in both, so yeah lol So yeah, this solidifies my opinion that this was just a flashback.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

The caricature and one of the films main protagonists insults combine to amount to a harmful depiction of an icon, yes.

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So we've gone from racism to "harmful depiction of an icon".

Well my friend, icons were made to be defaced.

I find it incredible that you extrapolate people stating that this scene is harmful to them and perpetuates damaging stereotypes as "mob rule." And looking to dissect, dismiss, and give disqualifying factors to people's reasons is not being open. It's being skeptical.

Who won the fight isn't even a part of this conversation or the actual complaints about the depiction.

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"Lee biographer Matthew Polly agreed, saying that Tarantino, as is his style, took liberties with how he portrayed Lee. "Bruce Lee was often a cocky, strutting, braggart, but Tarantino took those traits and exaggerated them"

Please, point at the harmful, damaging stereotypes.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

If Tarantino made a movie about the Bad Boy vs Death Row beef, he'd have Colin Hanks beat Biggie in a rap battle.

Oh, and Colin Hanks would die instead of Tupac lol.

 

[UltraMagnus]

So we've gone from racism to "harmful depiction of an icon".

Well my friend, icons were made to be defaced.



"Lee biographer Matthew Polly agreed, saying that Tarantino, as is his style, took liberties with how he portrayed Lee. "Bruce Lee was often a cocky, strutting, braggart, but Tarantino took those traits and exaggerated them"

Please, point at the harmful, damaging stereotypes.

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I don't think the depiction was racial, to the contrary I think the depiction of Lee's accent for example was one of the few screen depiction's we have of Bruce Lee where he actually sounds and intonates like well ... Bruce Lee actually did.

The baffling part to me was making him so over the top cocky. Which I understand the rationale will likely be "well Booth's character needs a reason to get into a fight with Bruce Lee" but I think that aspect could've been handled better.

When you're having Bruce Lee say things that would be contrary to what Lee actually said (ie: boasting about being able to beat Cassius Clay, when Lee said the exact opposite of that), that's when you get into a dicey territory IMO.

I think the scene would've worked better if they were simply both rehearsing for a fight sequence and a few of the blows from both sides came a little too close and they start to grate on each other's nerves to the point of agreeing to a fight.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I don't think the depiction was racial, to the contrary I think the depiction of Lee's accent for example was one of the few screen depiction's we have of Bruce Lee where he actually sounds and intonates like well ... Bruce Lee actually did.

The baffling part to me was making him so over the top cocky. Which I understand the rationale will likely be "well Booth's character needs a reason to get into a fight with Bruce Lee" but I think that aspect could've been handled better.

When you're having Bruce Lee say things that would be contrary to what Lee actually said (ie: boasting about being able to beat Cassius Clay, when Lee said the exact opposite of that), that's when you get into a dicey territory IMO.

I think the scene would've worked better if they were simply both rehearsing for a fight sequence and a few of the blows from both sides came a little too close and they start to grate on each other's nerves to the point of agreeing to a fight.

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He was a hero to a lot of people and many felt inspired by Lee.

 

[UltraMagnus]

He was a hero to a lot of people and many felt inspired by Lee.

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There's a broader grey area in that respect then I think as to whether or not you must always portray certain iconic people in a 100% positive light.

I was actually pretty down for an idea of the "real Bruce Lee" showing up in the movie rather than the "deified icon" version of Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee in real life was from many accounts a funny, joking, suave type of dude who was popular with the "cool crowd" of Hollywood at that time.

My gripe is they kinda went way out into left field and brought this weird bizarro universe version of Bruce Lee to the screen.

 

[Froyo Love]

"Lee biographer Matthew Polly agreed, saying that Tarantino, as is his style, took liberties with how he portrayed Lee. "Bruce Lee was often a cocky, strutting, braggart, but Tarantino took those traits and exaggerated them"

Please, point at the harmful, damaging stereotypes.

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stereotype: Asian men are weak, small, unmanly
film: Asian man who is famous for his fighting prowess is thrown into a car by a white stuntman

it's pretty weird not to be able to piece this one together for yourself

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

There's a broader grey area in that respect then I think as to whether or not you must always portray certain iconic people in a 100% positive light.

I was actually pretty down for an idea of the "real Bruce Lee" showing up in the movie rather than the "deified icon" version of Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee in real life was from many accounts a funny, joking, suave type of dude who was popular with the "cool crowd" of Hollywood at that time.

My gripe is they kinda went way out into left field and brought this weird bizarro universe version of Bruce Lee to the screen.

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Yeah, I understand that's disappointing. Specially if you're a fan, it's probably been a while since that name showed up in a big Hollywood production.

 

[UltraMagnus]

stereotype: Asian men are weak, small, unmanly
film: Asian man who is famous for his fighting prowess is thrown into a car by a white stuntman

it's pretty weird not to be able to piece this one together for yourself

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Yeah that part of it rubbed me the wrong way too, I'm fine with Brad Pitt "scoring a point" on Bruce Lee and holding his own but rag dolling him into a car was a bit ... much.

 

[Jest]

So we've gone from racism to "harmful depiction of an icon".

Well my friend, icons were made to be defaced.

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I've never said racism in my posts. Specifically because in topics like this, those who take the stance of "there's nothing wrong with _____" tend to deny and deflect anything that's negative about what they're defending unless it's explicit. It has nothing to do with you or your posts specifically, mind you. However in these topics, I don't care to argue with a wall of "well that's not really racist though."

As for your comment about Icons, it's not clever or witty. There's a difference between demystifying an Iconic figure to show how human and infallible they are... and making a mockery of them for laughs. "...to the point of SNL." It's especially egregious when said Icon is not only a powerful figure of inspiration to a people who have been repressed but actually lead to a change in the perception and treatment of those people, however minor. Bruce lead the way for non-exploitative depictions of Asians in Hollywood and proved that Asians could lead financially successful films (The Way of the Dragon was made with a budget of $130k and grossed 5.2 million in rentals in North America alone).

"Lee biographer Matthew Polly agreed, saying that Tarantino, as is his style, took liberties with how he portrayed Lee. "Bruce Lee was often a cocky, strutting, braggart, but Tarantino took those traits and exaggerated them"

Please, point at the harmful, damaging stereotypes.

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Bruce's cockiness was something that he did to market himself. He modeled that aspect of how he presented himself from Ali. Someone he looked up to and studied. He did not start or accept fights with random people who challenged him especially not in public. By that stage in his life he had learned and grown quite a bit from his experiences when he was younger. The insults from Pitt's character perpetuate the emasculating stereotypes that still persist about Asian men. When you combine these things along with the way the scene generally plays out it makes out Bruce to be all flash and no substance, a facade, (a common negative Asian/Martial Arts stereotype) that gets put in his place by the White Protagonist who's "actually" tough.

But all of this has been explained before in the thread and better than I have explained it here. But I guess you didn't see those posts.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

stereotype: Asian men are weak, small, unmanly
film: Asian man who is famous for his fighting prowess is thrown into a car by a white stuntman

it's pretty weird not to be able to piece this one together for yourself

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The way the scene plays out doesn't sustain that interpretation.

First round goes to Lee, second round to Pitt (with the throw), third round is evenly matched and then the fight is stopped by a third party.

Here, you can see yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgqoSrH11cs

 

[UltraMagnus]

The way the scene plays out doesn't sustain that interpretation.

First round goes to Lee, second round to Pitt (with the throw), third round is evenly matched and then the fight is stopped by a third party.

Here, you can see yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgqoSrH11cs

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Which is ok, I just felt the execution was off. Lee does win his "round" with Pitt but it's a rather tame and silly jump kick that Pitt isn't ready for.

Just felt it was too unbalanced that way. If Pitt was gonna throw Lee into a car, then Lee should've knocked some of his teeth out or something in his "win". But that's just my opinion of that, it's not something Tarantino necessarily needs to be beholden to.

Just my immediate gut reaction to it was that.

 

[Sanjuro]

The way the scene plays out doesn't sustain that interpretation.

First round goes to Lee, second round to Pitt (with the throw), third round is evenly matched and then the fight is stopped by a third party.

Here, you can see yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgqoSrH11cs

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Was Bruce Lee smaller than Cliff?

 

[Valiant]

That's kind of the crux of the problem right there. People are intentionally being obtuse of the problematic issue because "Well, Tarantino made ______ in the past, so he gets a free pass."

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I don't think anyone is being obtuse about it. They just have a different interpretation of of the events in the scene.

Now if you Wana talk about younger Tarantino where he felt the need to insert himself as a character in pulp fiction and just drop the n bomb all the time.

Or how another poster pointed out that Kill Bill (my favorite QT film) has a bunch of faceless Asians being slaughtered then I would agree with those criticisms.

 

[Jesse_and_the_rippers]

Scumfuck couldn't land a hit on Lee even if he tried taking him by surprise in the shower.

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Holy shit lol.

 

[UltraMagnus]

Was Bruce Lee smaller than Cliff?

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Bruce Lee was 5'8 and Pitt is 5'11 ... so yeah he would be noticeably shorter.

 

[Deleted member 12224]

Which is ok, I just felt the execution was off. Lee does win his "round" with Pitt but it's a rather tame and silly jump kick that Pitt isn't ready for.

Just felt it was too unbalanced that way. If Pitt was gonna throw Lee into a car, then Lee should've knocked some of his teeth out or something in his "win". But that's just my opinion of that, it's not something Tarantino necessarily needs to be beholden to.

Just my immediate gut reaction to it was that.

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The first two rounds were even, in my opinion. First one, Lee jumps and kicks him in the chest effortlessly and Pitt falls. Second one, Pitt arrogantly dares him to try that move again, Lee arrogantly figures he'll kick his ass doing the same thing again, Pitt uses Lee's momentum to swing him into the car behind him.

The third round, where Pitt's going move-for-move with Lee, blocking a strike here, swinging in a way to put Lee on his heels there, etc., that's what came off as a bit ridiculous to me as a movie goer. I figured he was just going to charge at him and try to tackle the guy and swing, not put on a martial arts exhibition.

 

[UltraMagnus]

The first two rounds were even, in my opinion. First one, Lee jumps and kicks him in the chest effortlessly and Pitt falls. Second one, Pitt arrogantly dares him to try that move again, Lee arrogantly figures he'll kick his ass doing the same thing again, Pitt uses Lee's momentum to swing him into the car behind him.

The third round, where Pitt's going move-for-move with Lee, blocking a strike here, swinging in a way to put Lee on his heels there, etc., that's what came off as a bit ridiculous to me as a movie goer. I figured he was just going to charge at him and try to tackle the guy and swing, not put on a martial arts exhibition.

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It would be even in my eyes if Lee really hurt Pitt in the first round somehow, but he gets up fairly quick with no ill effect. I think Tarantino's intention likely was that it was an "even fight" but the execution was poor in that respect. Just my gut feeling on it though.

 

[Jon Carter]

Hes not wearing the same clothes

In the flashback hes wearing this before changing into the tux

While thinking about the flashback in the present he is wearing this

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There goes my interpretation. Sucks because I liked the scene better when I thought it was a "what-if" in Cliff's head. Hard to defend it now and I hope Tarantino comments on what the fuck he was thinking. Anyway, thanks for the pics.

 

[Froyo Love]

The way the scene plays out doesn't sustain that interpretation.

First round goes to Lee, second round to Pitt (with the throw), third round is evenly matched and then the fight is stopped by a third party.

Here, you can see yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgqoSrH11cs

Click to shrink...

yes, in fact, an Asian man who is world-famous for his fighting prowess only being "evenly matched" with a random white stuntman and getting bodily hurled into a car is an example of a harmful stereotype

 

[Sanjuro]

yes, in fact, an Asian man who is world-famous for his fighting prowess only being "evenly matched" with a random white stuntman and getting bodily hurled into a car is an example of a harmful stereotype

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So, who is allowed to lose against Bruce Lee? Bruce Vilanch?

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

yes, in fact, an Asian man who is world-famous for his fighting prowess only being "evenly matched" with a random white stuntman and getting bodily hurled into a car is an example of a harmful stereotype

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So an even fight means one of the fighters is a weak, effeminate man?

You are reaching.

 

[Einchy]

yes, in fact, an Asian man who is world-famous for his fighting prowess only being "evenly matched" with a random white stuntman and getting bodily hurled into a car is an example of a harmful stereotype

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He isn't a "random" stuntman. He's an ex-green beret who is shown to be an insanely good fighter through this scene and the ending.

Bruce isn't shown to be a fraud in this scene but rather that Cliff is good enough to go toe to toe with Bruce Lee.

 

[UltraMagnus]

He isn't a "random" stuntman. He's an ex-green beret who is shown to be an insanely good fighter through this scene and the ending.

Bruce isn't shown to be a fraud in this scene but rather that Cliff is good enough to go toe to toe with Bruce Lee.

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While I think that may have been the intention of the scene, it doesn't really play that way for me (and apparently others). Lee comes off as a cocky blow hard who can't back up the (fictional) boasting that Tarantino invented.

That part of it rubbed me the wrong way. I'm fine with having a scene like this and having Pitt get his pound of flesh as it were as it serves a narrative purpose, but the crass execution of it rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Froyo Love]

So, who is allowed to lose against Bruce Lee? Bruce Vilanch?

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So an even fight means one of the fighters is a weak, effeminate man?

You are reaching.

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He isn't a "random" stuntman. He's an ex-green beret who is shown to be an insanely good fighter through this scene and the ending.

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you guys act so mystified about why people might not like the scene, and then when someone answers Bitmap Frogs' insultingly oblivious "Please, point at the harmful, damaging stereotypes", you suddenly are so ready with arguments to legislate how a negative reaction can't possibly be justified

but I guess it's hard to fathom how there might be racial stereotypes involved in a white guy putting an Asian man back in his place by matching him at his famed proficiency

 

[Einchy]

you guys act so mystified about why people might not like the scene, and then when someone answers Bitmap Frogs' insultingly oblivious "Please, point at the harmful, damaging stereotypes", you suddenly are so ready with arguments to legislate how a negative reaction can't possibly be justified

but I guess it's hard to fathom how there might be racial stereotypes involved in a white guy putting an Asian man back in his place by matching him at his famed proficiency

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I'm sorry if me pointing out that this character is an ex-green beret doesn't jibe with your false claim that he's just a random white stuntman.

 

[The Vathlonian]

I'm seeing the same from some martial arts instructors. Even those who disliked Bruce Lee's theories.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

As for your comment about Icons, it's not clever or witty. There's a difference between demystifying an Iconic figure to show how human and infallible they are... and making a mockery of them for laughs. "...to the point of SNL." It's especially egregious when said Icon is not only a powerful figure of inspiration to a people who have been repressed but actually lead to a change in the perception and treatment of those people, however minor. Bruce lead the way for non-exploitative depictions of Asians in Hollywood and proved that Asians could lead financially successful films (The Way of the Dragon was made with a budget of $130k and grossed 5.2 million in rentals in North America alone).

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Good because it wasn't mean to be neither. Essentially your argument boils to: he was liked, did important things, he shouldn't be mocked.

Still no racism, still no good reason not to do it other than "people will be angry you mocked someone they like".

Bruce's cockiness was something that he did to market himself. He modeled that aspect of how he presented himself from Ali. Someone he looked up to and studied. He did not start or accept fights with random people who challenged him especially not in public. By that stage in his life he had learned and grown quite a bit from his experiences when he was younger. The insults from Pitt's character perpetuate the emasculating stereotypes that still persist about Asian men. When you combine these things along with the way the scene generally plays out it makes out Bruce to be all flash and no substance, a facade, (a common negative Asian/Martial Arts stereotype) that gets put in his place by the White Protagonist who's "actually" tough.

But all of this has been explained before in the thread and better than I have explained it here. But I guess you didn't see those posts.

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That's a lot of Bruce Lee facts in here that I am not sure are relevant to the discussion. But since you mention it, what Bruce would or wouldn't do, again it isn't relevant. The movie is not a Bruce Lee biography.

The scene does not support your "all flash and no substance" comment. I posted a link to it earlier and while it shows Bruce being flamboyant and flashy, it does show Bruce being effective: he wins a round, and ties another.

As for the emasculating insults that you mention, could you specify which ones you mean/provide a youtube link? All I remember is the pre fight banter about the fists as weapons, then the post fight banter when the fight ends that was about who was beating who.