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Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
User Banned (1 week): hostility and personal insults, history of similar behavior
I'm glad that people close to you told you that privitisation of public services is bad and you to this day still havent managed to connect the dots.

Don't be such a patronising prick. I'm being honest and you're just being a wanker. Edit: I'm aware that privatising of the NHS isnt good, but it's not just limited to Tories. Brown was all over PPI for transport. And it was he and Blair who opened the floodgates for the NHS.
 

avaya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
London
Well my mum has retired. My sister tells me it's not great. Their main beef back in the day was that Labour pumped in a load of money but a lot of it took responsibility from senior nurses and they hired a load of unnecessary people with clipboards whose job was to manage various aspects of a ward - something that nurses could do quite happily. All of this was related to targets which put unnecessary pressure on nurses and made them accountable to people who didn't have the faintest fucking clue as to how a ward is run in the real world. That and the massive increase in paperwork which took them away from front line nursing.

But the results achieved don't tie up to this story though, do they? Of course things could have been better still but the record of that Labour government when it comes to the NHS is without equal since its founding.

Sometimes it would be wise to take a step back and ask yourself. How much do the clip board people cost and how many of them were there? Then you should ask yourself what is the no.1 reason for healthcare cost inflation, which routinely runs at mid to high single digit every year?The answer is easy, it's the actual cost of the drugs and treatments. Followed by the beds. Followed by the volume of front-line staff. A person with a clipboard or another bureaucrat is a genuinely irrelevant thing to focus on. There is only one thing the NHS needs and it is money and if it is not funded at 3-4x the broader CPI rate then you are actively under-funding it and making a real-terms cut.

I will never understand how anyone would want the Tory party, a party inherently opposed to the NHS at a fundamental level and has elements within it which dream of wholesale privatisation of it, in charge of the very thing they so diametrically oppose.
 

Deleted member 835

User requested account deletion
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,660
Was it any better under Blair/Brown? Is it Brexit / austerity that has made things worse ie. Anti immigration propaganda? I guess I'm asking if you've noticed it getting noticeably worse over time. And if so, what do you think a Labour government might do to help this. You're right, it is hard to empathise when you've not experienced these things and you're just going about your daily business and keeping your own life ticking over.
A little, I only vote Labour to stop Tories. Brexit is the course of the rise of bigotry or at least made it more easy to spew it. Brexit has fucked this country and made many poc give up on white people here ever accepting us as equals.

It's very much why I have no time for Tory voters. The left has big racism problems as it is, the right is just trash.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
Spoken like a person destined to see their views never implemented. You live a FPTP system, you have to compromise. What are you waiting for? WW3? You do realise the last time we got change on that scale was after everything was destroyed right?
So what exactly do you suggest we do when the system is so rigged in the favour of the rich and powerful, when we have just over a decade if not less to really start working towards solutions to mitigate climate change, bigotry and discrimination is rapidly on the rise and only getting worse and the disparity between the rich and poor is the spiraling out of control?

That's what you 'small change' people don't get, unless we get radical change done than we are all fucked. It's as simple as that.

If people like boy wonder can't get passed the tory propaganda and wants to blame everything on the people who factually have made things better and instead vote for the party that factually have made things infinitely worse every time they have been in power, maybe you should be throwing that fucking blame at them instead of having a go at leftists and then trying to reason for some middle ground solution that simply isn't good enough for the pressing issues that our society is facing!
 

lemonhat

Member
Dec 6, 2018
218
No he certainly isn't but he still an anti-semite. He is completely unelectable. The whole thing is academic, he's finished. Literally the worst favorability ratings for a LOTO since the war, he makes Hillary Clinton look like fucking JFK.

The press in this country are absolute shithounds. That is why the Labour party has always needed media savvy bastards behind the scenes. People like Campbell and the Lord of Darkness himself, Mandelson. We do not have these attack dogs anymore. Campbell used to make Fleet Street shit itself.

Today you see what a shambles Labour are because it is run by a collection of failures. So utterly out of their depth and so clueless, literally a bunch of 6th formers.

There is so much nonsense in this post it's hard to know where to start.

Corbyn is not an anti-semite. What evidence do you have to make such an accusation? Or do you just believe all the shit that spews out of Margaret Hodges's mouth (an utter disgrace who should have been expelled from the Labour party for her appalling behaviour) or from the media? His record on anti-racism is almost second to none in our ghastly house of commons. He's not perfect obviously, but he is clearly not an anti-semite. Labour's anti-semitism issues hardly show how he is anti-semitic (there has never even been any evidence to show Labour is more anti-semitic than society in general. Racism exists everywhere sadly. Shamefully it is largely ignored in our politics other than when it can be weaponised against the left). Especially as many of the problems were exacerbated by those is the Labour party who were trying to undermine him such as the former general secretary Ian McNicol.

Anyway, as a gay, mixed race man with a history of mental illness I know damn well that Corbyn is not to be feared and has one of the most principled and progressive records of any major British politician. He would be by far the least racist politician we would have ever had in number ten if he becomes PM. Which is a possibility and to completely dismiss is ridiculous.

The unelectable nonsense is just complete and utter bullshit. He has proven himself to be far more electable than all of his critics in his party for instance. Over 12m votes in 2017, biggest swing since 1945, increase in seats, turning a whole slew of seats into marginals meaning a general election victory is far more possible now than it was in 2015 (Labour had so much they needed to claw back then that an outright victory in the following election was nigh impossible without a Tory collapse). And no, it's not just down to May's campaign being terrible (though that helped) - the tory vote actually didn't fall that much through the election campaign whilst Labour's skyrocketed and turnout increased (when the election was called the Tories were polling at 46%, Labour around 25%. End result was 42.4% and 40% - Tories only dropped by 3.6%, Labour increased by 15%, and 10% up from previous election). Corbyn is an exemplary campaigner and his efforts made a massive difference (I've seen him speak several times and can attest to this).

He's also been hugely successful as Labour leader in terms of growing the membership (doubling since 2015). The party was on its knees financially back in 2015 and is now in rude health, raising more money and with less debt than even the Tories. Its on the ground mass of supporters is huge. It is now one of the biggest political parties in western Europe with a huge number of passionate and determined members willing to go out and canvass. Thanks to Corbyn and the left leadership of the party. The monumental incompetence of those that oppose him have even made him stronger in the party and consolidated the power of the left (through entirely democratic means, following the rules of the party. Unlike the Labour right who tried to subvert the rules whenever they could).

Jeremy Corbyn has been a far more competent and successful leader than Miliband or Brown ever were. And Blair was a war-mongering cunt so the less said about him the better (plus Labour lost a hefty amount of votes throughout his time in office. The Tories even won more votes in England than Labour in 2005. Centrism has proven to be a dead end).

People like Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson are hugely unpopular, been utterly discredited and are now basically irrelevant. The Labour Party absolutely does not need the likes of them again.

Quite how you can claim Labour is a shambles when it's in a stronger position than it has been in years is laughable. And when people complain about how useless he is I'm just baffled. He's proven himself to be less useless than the vast majority of idiots in our parliament. Less competent than Boris racist-cunt Johnson? Jo tory-enabling Swinson? Caroline 'whites-only-women-cabinet' Lucas? Fucking LOL. There's a reason he's outlasted so many other party leaders and runs rings around many of his doubters.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
He should definitely do more to restructure how the labour party handles those issues, I don't disagree.
Right, but he doesn't, because he doesn't really care, and if he doesn't really care about anti-semitism in his party, then he himself is complicit, and he might be being complicit because he himself agrees with the anti-semites in some way or another.

That or unfortunately his greatest supporters turned out to be anti-semites, which would mean if he got rid of them he'd be hurting himself. So luckily he's picked his kinder gentler politics over stamping out anti-semitism in the Labour party. The Labour Party where this is the last place this should be happening.


Don't be such a patronising prick. I'm being honest and you're just being a wanker. Edit: I'm aware that privatising of the NHS isnt good, but it's not just limited to Tories. Brown was all over PPI for transport. And it was he and Blair who opened the floodgates for the NHS.

Be careful when using anecdotal evidence of the NHS from your mother. My mother was one of those "clipboard managers" and I would say she did an amazing job based on the feedback she received. Then she was made redundant in order to "slim down" the NHS and in her view gave her job to somebody less qualified to do it purely because they had a background in medical history but no background in actually managing people.

That was an incredibly difficult time for us, at least your family seemingly retained their jobs.
 

Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
A little, I only vote Labour to stop Tories. Brexit is the course of the rise of bigotry or at least made it more easy to spew it. Brexit has fucked this country and made many poc give up on white people here ever accepting us as equals.

I know its probably difficult, but it might change as times go on. A lot more people in the younger generation mix socially with people of other races and I know my son is actively taught about race, minorities, tolerance, lgbt etc at school. So I think "on the ground" so to speak, things might improve. The bigger problem is getting better representation in the media and politics.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,800
I know its probably difficult, but it might change as times go on. A lot more people in the younger generation mix socially with people of other races and I know my son is actively taught about race, minorities, tolerance, lgbt etc at school. So I think "on the ground" so to speak, things might improve. The bigger problem is getting better representation in the media and politics.

Doesn't really matter if the weans get taught well if the people in Beefy's age group are all racist wallopers who won't let go of their views, and feel like they can be more brazen about them, thanks to a government enabling that kind of behaviour. He still has to live through the rest of his life with his age group, and the people older than him, acting like turbo-cunt racists.

Brexit was clearly fought on anti-immigrant grounds, with a focus on people who aren't white (Farage and his queue poster). Its now the biggest talking point in UK politics, and likely will be for the next 10 or 20 years, leave or not. Its emboldening racism. There's no way that it can be resolved by just letting the Tories have their way. You need to elect a government who won't just pay lip service to equality, and Labour are the only other party who you could feasibly get into office due to FPTP who can do that, since we know the Tories won't.
 

Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
There is so much nonsense in this post it's hard to know where to start.

Corbyn is not an anti-semite. What evidence do you have to make such an accusation? Or do you just believe all the shit that spews out of Margaret Hodges's mouth (an utter disgrace who should have been expelled from the Labour party for her appalling behaviour) or from the media? His record on anti-racism is almost second to none in our ghastly house of commons. He's not perfect obviously, but he is clearly not an anti-semite. Labour's anti-semitism issues hardly show how he is anti-semitic (there has never even been any evidence to show Labour is more anti-semitic than society in general. Racism exists everywhere sadly. Shamefully it is largely ignored in our politics other than when it can be weaponised against the left). Especially as many of the problems were exacerbated by those is the Labour party who were trying to undermine him such as the former general secretary Ian McNicol.

Anyway, as a gay, mixed race man with a history of mental illness I know damn well that Corbyn is not to be feared and has one of the most principled and progressive records of any major British politician. He would be by far the least racist politician we would have ever had in number ten if he becomes PM. Which is a possibility and to completely dismiss is ridiculous.

The unelectable nonsense is just complete and utter bullshit. He has proven himself to be far more electable than all of his critics in his party for instance. Over 12m votes in 2017, biggest swing since 1945, increase in seats, turning a whole slew of seats into marginals meaning a general election victory is far more possible now than it was in 2015 (Labour had so much they needed to claw back then that an outright victory in the following election was nigh impossible without a Tory collapse). And no, it's not just down to May's campaign being terrible (though that helped) - the tory vote actually didn't fall that much through the election campaign whilst Labour's skyrocketed and turnout increased (when the election was called the Tories were polling at 46%, Labour around 25%. End result was 42.4% and 40% - Tories only dropped by 3.6%, Labour increased by 15%, and 10% up from previous election). Corbyn is an exemplary campaigner and his efforts made a massive difference (I've seen him speak several times and can attest to this).

He's also been hugely successful as Labour leader in terms of growing the membership (doubling since 2015). The party was on its knees financially back in 2015 and is now in rude health, raising more money and with less debt than even the Tories. Its on the ground mass of supporters is huge. It is now one of the biggest political parties in western Europe with a huge number of passionate and determined members willing to go out and canvass. Thanks to Corbyn and the left leadership of the party. The monumental incompetence of those that oppose him have even made him stronger in the party and consolidated the power of the left (through entirely democratic means, following the rules of the party. Unlike the Labour right who tried to subvert the rules whenever they could).

Jeremy Corbyn has been a far more competent and successful leader than Miliband or Brown ever were. And Blair was a war-mongering cunt so the less said about him the better (plus Labour lost a hefty amount of votes throughout his time in office. The Tories even won more votes in England than Labour in 2005. Centrism has proven to be a dead end).

People like Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson are hugely unpopular, been utterly discredited and are now basically irrelevant. The Labour Party absolutely does not need the likes of them again.

Quite how you can claim Labour is a shambles when it's in a stronger position than it has been in years is laughable. And when people complain about how useless he is I'm just baffled. He's proven himself to be less useless than the vast majority of idiots in our parliament. Less competent than Boris racist-cunt Johnson? Jo tory-enabling Swinson? Caroline 'whites-only-women-cabinet' Lucas? Fucking LOL. There's a reason he's outlasted so many other party leaders and runs rings around many of his doubters.

If he's not unelectable, why did a recent poll result in people having more faith in the country under a no deal Brexit than under Corbyn as leader. Wake up. He's polarising and is never going to get people to cross the political boundary like Blair did. And that's what you're going to need if Labour want to get in again anytime soon.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
If he's not unelectable, why did a recent poll result in people having more faith in the country under a no deal Brexit than under Corbyn as leader. Wake up. He's polarising and is never going to get people to cross the political boundary like Blair did. And that's what you're going to need if Labour want to get in again anytime soon.
So what do you want. Tell us honestly. What you want to see happen in the next three months without wrapping it like a turkey dressed for Christmas
 

Menchi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,138
UK
I said he represents local issues decently not that I want to go for a beer with him. I disagree with his stance on same sex marriage.

If the only problem you have with -that- voting record is the same-sex marraige ones? Well you are -never- going to vote labour, Corbyn or otherwise. How anyone can be happy with that record, just because he's "decent" on local issues is beyond me, but, ehh derailing.

I know its probably difficult, but it might change as times go on. A lot more people in the younger generation mix socially with people of other races and I know my son is actively taught about race, minorities, tolerance, lgbt etc at school. So I think "on the ground" so to speak, things might improve. The bigger problem is getting better representation in the media and politics.

Uhh... but you vote for a guy who consistently votes in ways that help destroy the lives of LGBT, Minorities and poor, vulnerable people...
 

avaya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
London
There is so much nonsense in this post it's hard to know where to start.

Corbyn is not an anti-semite. What evidence do you have to make such an accusation? Or do you just believe all the shit that spews out of Margaret Hodges's mouth (an utter disgrace who should have been expelled from the Labour party for her appalling behaviour) or from the media? His record on anti-racism is almost second to none in our ghastly house of commons. He's not perfect obviously, but he is clearly not an anti-semite. Labour's anti-semitism issues hardly show how he is anti-semitic (there has never even been any evidence to show Labour is more anti-semitic than society in general. Racism exists everywhere sadly. Shamefully it is largely ignored in our politics other than when it can be weaponised against the left). Especially as many of the problems were exacerbated by those is the Labour party who were trying to undermine him such as the former general secretary Ian McNicol.

Anyway, as a gay, mixed race man with a history of mental illness I know damn well that Corbyn is not to be feared and has one of the most principled and progressive records of any major British politician. He would be by far the least racist politician we would have ever had in number ten if he becomes PM. Which is a possibility and to completely dismiss is ridiculous.

The unelectable nonsense is just complete and utter bullshit. He has proven himself to be far more electable than all of his critics in his party for instance. Over 12m votes in 2017, biggest swing since 1945, increase in seats, turning a whole slew of seats into marginals meaning a general election victory is far more possible now than it was in 2015 (Labour had so much they needed to claw back then that an outright victory in the following election was nigh impossible without a Tory collapse). And no, it's not just down to May's campaign being terrible (though that helped) - the tory vote actually didn't fall that much through the election campaign whilst Labour's skyrocketed and turnout increased (when the election was called the Tories were polling at 46%, Labour around 25%. End result was 42.4% and 40% - Tories only dropped by 3.6%, Labour increased by 15%, and 10% up from previous election). Corbyn is an exemplary campaigner and his efforts made a massive difference (I've seen him speak several times and can attest to this).

He's also been hugely successful as Labour leader in terms of growing the membership (doubling since 2015). The party was on its knees financially back in 2015 and is now in rude health, raising more money and with less debt than even the Tories. Its on the ground mass of supporters is huge. It is now one of the biggest political parties in western Europe with a huge number of passionate and determined members willing to go out and canvass. Thanks to Corbyn and the left leadership of the party. The monumental incompetence of those that oppose him have even made him stronger in the party and consolidated the power of the left (through entirely democratic means, following the rules of the party. Unlike the Labour right who tried to subvert the rules whenever they could).

Jeremy Corbyn has been a far more competent and successful leader than Miliband or Brown ever were. And Blair was a war-mongering cunt so the less said about him the better (plus Labour lost a hefty amount of votes throughout his time in office. The Tories even won more votes in England than Labour in 2005. Centrism has proven to be a dead end).

People like Alistair Campbell and Peter Mandelson are hugely unpopular, been utterly discredited and are now basically irrelevant. The Labour Party absolutely does not need the likes of them again.

Quite how you can claim Labour is a shambles when it's in a stronger position than it has been in years is laughable. And when people complain about how useless he is I'm just baffled. He's proven himself to be less useless than the vast majority of idiots in our parliament. Less competent than Boris racist-cunt Johnson? Jo tory-enabling Swinson? Caroline 'whites-only-women-cabinet' Lucas? Fucking LOL. There's a reason he's outlasted so many other party leaders and runs rings around many of his doubters.

1. 2017 was a remain swing, the collapse of the Labour vote since then is proof positive. It didn't really matter who was Labour leader, they would have benefitted from it. A more popular Labour leader would never have seen May go for an election in the first place. He did not expand the base. He is unelectable. If you still believe the false narrative, you are in for a surprise.

2. Don't play the minority card with me. I came to this country as a refugee. I see Corbyn for what he is every day of the week. He is so clearly at ease with anti-semites, the far left of the Labour party has always had an issue with racism, it's why horseshoe theory works. Blair is not a racist and neither was Brown.

3. The Labour membership is declining (suddenly don't want to release numbers eh?) and is an irrelevant metric, since all that actually matter is electoral success.

4. Corbyn has achieved the sum total of fuck all as an MP and as a LOTO. Name his accomplishments. Blair won 3 generals. What has Jeremy achieved for the few? It shouldn't take long.

5. It doesn't matter that you think Magic Grandpa is the second coming of Christ. He is utterly unelectable. Opinion polls have errors but they are normally correct to within 3 sigmas. Corbyn is a double digit negative favorability. You will not resurrect this. Because no one cares. His reputation is final now. Your reaction is pure emotion and completely illogical.
 

Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
So what do you want. Tell us honestly. What you want to see happen in the next three months without wrapping it like a turkey dressed for Christmas

Tough one. Ideally I'd like to see us somehow delay Brexit again and negotiate a deal with the EU that could get through parliament. Seems like pie in the sky though. I think a GE is probably necessary, but I've got no faith that it would lead to a positive outcome because I could foresee a hung parliament or even worse if Brexit isn't resolved one way or the other. I'd like to see an end to the whole Brexit debacle and a focus on home issues regardless of who gets into power. I'm not seeing many positives no matter what happens in a 3 month time frame.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
1. 2017 was a remain swing, the collapse of the Labour vote since then is proof positive. It didn't really matter who was Labour leader, they would have benefitted from it. A more popular Labour leader would never have seen May go for an election in the first place. He did not expand the base. He is unelectable. If you still believe the false narrative, you are in for a surprise.

2. Don't play the minority card with me. I came to this country as a refugee. I see Corbyn for what he is every day of the week. He is so clearly at ease with anti-semites, the far left of the Labour party has always had an issue with racism, it's why horseshoe theory works. Blair is not a racist and neither was Brown.

3. The Labour membership is declining (suddenly don't want to release numbers eh?) and is an irrelevant metric, since all that actually matter is electoral success.

4. Corbyn has achieved the sum total of fuck all as an MP and as a LOTO. Name his accomplishments. Blair won 3 generals. What has Jeremy achieved for the few? It shouldn't take long.

5. It doesn't matter that you think Magic Grandpa is the second coming of Christ. He is utterly unelectable. Opinion polls have errors but they are normally correct to within 3 sigmas. Corbyn is a double digit negative favorability. You will not resurrect this. Because no one cares. His reputation is final now. Your reaction is pure emotion and completely illogical.
Thanks for saying what I couldn't be bothered to.
 

avaya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
London
I think boris is gonna lose some seats but still win (hung parliament) and continues his no deal propaganda. In the end the EU will offer one final deal which shafts the DUP and is a NI backstop which will be put to a vote.

If it isn't obvious by now the ERG is the English extension of the GOP with the same backers, more or less. People don't behave this way and lie so shamelessly unless they are on the take.

They want no-deal for their dystopian future. That means up to 50+ Tories against any deal, so Labour MPs would have to shephard through a shitty WA which will do economic damage and therefore fuck over the long term future of the party yet again.
 

lemonhat

Member
Dec 6, 2018
218
If he's not unelectable, why did a recent poll result in people having more faith in the country under a no deal Brexit than under Corbyn as leader. Wake up. He's polarising and is never going to get people to cross the political boundary like Blair did. And that's what you're going to need if Labour want to get in again anytime soon.

How does that poll prove he's unelectable? It doesn't take away from the successes he's had and he has already proven his ability to confound polling anyway. Labour under him got more votes than all of Blair's victories other than 1997 so again I don't really see what point you're making there. And which major party leaders aren't polarising anyway? Johnson most certainly is and many people think his victory is a shoo-in for some reason (it isn't). It isn't even just about the leader anyway. Much of Labours success in the previous election was down to a fantastic and inspiring manifesto which proved hugely popular; a positive, hopeful message; mass on the ground campaigning which the Tories cannot compete with at all; strong digital campaigning across social media, etc. It isn't just about Corbyn and Labour have many strengths now which constantly go underestimated. There are now a huge number of marginal seats and Labour have a huge amount of resources to throw at them.

There's still much standing in Labours way, but to completely dismiss Labours abilities is absurd. Jeremy Corbyn has proven there's hope for the left in Britain. It's easy to forget how dire things were before he took over the Labour Party, but we now have a genuine chance at a decent, progressive government for the first time in I don't know how long. Please stop falling for the bullshit 'nothing better is possible' narrative. It's simply not true (and will prove a self-fulfilling prophecy if people lose sight of what really matters. Thankfully I'm sure Labours excellent campaigning skills will ensure that defeatism remains minor).
 

Y2Kev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,837
How does that poll prove he's unelectable? It doesn't take away from the successes he's had and he has already proven his ability to confound polling anyway.

Has he had any policy successes?

It's hard to disaggregate the impact of Leave/Remain from what has happened over the last few years but it seems to me that if you had a Labour leader who was even, like, above water, the Conservatives would be pretty hamstrung. It's certainly not clear that a "popular" Labour leader can exist, but Corbyn at least from the outsider's perspective seems that he can never be well liked. It kinda sucks; I loved Hillary Clinton here and I think her general unpopularity caused us to make a big...mistake.
 

Brotherhood93

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,780
There always seems to be mixed messages coming from Labour but suggesting they'd block an election before October 31st on Newsnight.



Think Corbyn would take flak for that after constantly saying he wants an election but I think it'd be a smart move, assuming the planned legislation holds up, not only does it stop any tricks from Johnson to force through no deal but it makes him look weaker for failing to deliver Brexit and probably means no pacts with Farage.
 

softfocus

Member
Oct 30, 2017
903
Jeez this thread shat itself over the course of a few days. Keep it together, boys and girls!

I was very proud to hear the boos during Boris's speech earlier. Put that one in the history books, you hack.

Did anyone watch that C4 debate? It was depressing, I'm sure most of that audience wants No Deal and we'll have to deal with the shortages for however long it takes, to paraphrase a member of that lovely audience. 🙄 Oh and don't get me started on that Brexit Party MEP downplaying medicine shortages.
 

lemonhat

Member
Dec 6, 2018
218
1. 2017 was a remain swing, the collapse of the Labour vote since then is proof positive. It didn't really matter who was Labour leader, they would have benefitted from it. A more popular Labour leader would never have seen May go for an election in the first place. He did not expand the base. He is unelectable. If you still believe the false narrative, you are in for a surprise.

2. Don't play the minority card with me. I came to this country as a refugee. I see Corbyn for what he is every day of the week. He is so clearly at ease with anti-semites, the far left of the Labour party has always had an issue with racism, it's why horseshoe theory works. Blair is not a racist and neither was Brown.

3. The Labour membership is declining (suddenly don't want to release numbers eh?) and is an irrelevant metric, since all that actually matter is electoral success.

4. Corbyn has achieved the sum total of fuck all as an MP and as a LOTO. Name his accomplishments. Blair won 3 generals. What has Jeremy achieved for the few? It shouldn't take long.

5. It doesn't matter that you think Magic Grandpa is the second coming of Christ. He is utterly unelectable. Opinion polls have errors but they are normally correct to within 3 sigmas. Corbyn is a double digit negative favorability. You will not resurrect this. Because no one cares. His reputation is final now. Your reaction is pure emotion and completely illogical.

1. labour did so well in 2017 because they successfully made the election about things other than brexit - namely ending austerity and investing in people and the country. The manifesto was given as the main reason people voted Labour. And that did not focus heavily on Brexit.

2. Blair misled parliament to wage an illegal war in the middle east killing vast numbers of people of colour and he believes that was justified. Brown supported that too initially. In the 2005 general election campaign Labour were responsible for anti-semitic posters attacking the Jewish then tory leader Michael Howard (Alisatir Campbell was behind them, but strangely never gets taken to task for it). Labour in the Blair years also played a part in the increasing discrimination towards asylum seekers with resulting increases in poverty. To claim Blair isn't racist and Corbyn somehow is is simply not borne out by the facts. Corbyn was also one of the few labour MPs to vote against the utterly racist hostile immigration policy (most abstained).

And horseshoe theory is total bullshit.

3. Whether membership is declining or not (I have no idea) it is still far far larger than it has been in over a decade. And his electoral success is that he increased Labours seats in the last election and massively increased their share of the votes, putting them in a far stronger position to win the next election. The first time Labour have been up considerably since 1997 (they were down in all other elections other than the slight vote share increase in 2015).

4. I've already gone over his successes as Labour leader (which are many). He has greatly increased labours chances of winning a general election from their dire position in 2015. Labour under him helped ensure the Tories lost their majority (we would probably have left the EU under May's shitty deal if she got the majority she wanted). The Tory government over the past two years has lost more votes than any in decades and is incapable of getting almost anything through parliament (they even had to accept Labour amendments to last years budget which is simply unheard of. If it wasn't for the godawful fixed term parliament act the appalling lib dems and Tory cunts bequeathed us they would have collapsed ages ago). One Tory PM has already fallen (two counting Cameron) and the current one is already looking rattled. Corbyn has helped inspire many of the 'few' (don't even think about arguing against this as it is completely true whether you care to admit it or not) - many now feel that progressive change is possible (even though it's clearly really fucking hard).

5. Opinion polling in the last general election was mostly way off. Shut up with the magic Grandpa nonsense. A reputation is never final. And it's not just about Corbyn for Labour to win anyway.

You have far less evidence to support your assertions so quite how my claims are just emotion and illogical is beyond me,
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
Some of you in this thread do not get how hard it is to be a minority in the UK atm.
You know full well they just don't give a fuck about what you're saying. They're "well off" with the crumbs that fall off the Tory table in their direction, and they do their best to not see the reasons why other people don't get crumbs thrown their way, because seeing them would ruin their dinner (it's probably their own fault, those lazy people!).
At best, they bought into the 2012 Olympics narrative and honestly thought Racism had been defeated (proof: they never hear any brown person complaining about it. They don't even know any!)
 

Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
Let's say there is a snap GE mid October. What's the likely outcome? Stalemate? Lib/Lab coalition? God forbid, Boris supported by Farage?
 

nature boy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,877
Let's say there is a snap GE mid October. What's the likely outcome? Stalemate? Lib/Lab coalition? God forbid, Boris supported by Farage?
Impossible to say.

More important question is who will support what government?

Will Lib Dems support Labour? (Unlikely if Corbyn is PM)
Will Brexit party support the Tories (Farage wants no deal, doesn't seem to have support in the Tories for that TBH)
Will the SNP support Labour? What are the conditions? Labour has said it won't support indyref2 in the "formative" years of its government (dunno what that means)

I'm genuinely intrigued how the political parties will position themselves on Brexit during the campaign. Corbyn wants Brexit but is the leader of a party where +70% of its voters are Remain.
 

Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
Impossible to say.

More important question is who will support what government?

Will Lib Dems support Labour? (Unlikely if Corbyn is PM)
Will Brexit party support the Tories (Farage wants no deal, doesn't seem to have support in the Tories for that TBH)
Will the SNP support Labour? What are the conditions? Labour has said it won't support indyref2 in the "formative" years of its government (dunno what that means)

I'm genuinely intrigued how the political parties will position themselves on Brexit during the campaign. Corbyn wants Brexit but is the leader of a party where +70% of its voters are Remain.

I guess it depends on how much Brexit makes people vote for a party other than the one they'd traditionally vote for. Quite a few traditionally working class and industrial areas where there's strong Labour support but now equally strong Brexit Leave support. Also some Tory areas where Remain is the prevalent opinion. Could be an election that is in part seen as a second referendum rather than a GE.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,161
Say what you will of Corbyn, but I never thought I'd see someone defend Blair, but I guess that's what 2019 has done to us.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
Some of you in this thread do not get how hard it is to be a minority in the UK atm. Some of you need to realise many black people have given up trying to "educate" white people on racism and other things. We don't need to go out of our way to help people like that, we put up with it enough just walking a street.
Why ever would you be more upset that the people responsible for Windrush are/were running the country?

People who don't understand picking lesser evils need to look deeper into politics and find strong minority voices to listen to.

Its on white people like me to listen if people like Beefy deem me worthy of advice or sharing their experiences. Cause there's no other way I can learn and understand what it's like for them, and how my vote can hurt minorities if I choose to waste it or stay home.

I hope you keep doing what you're doing. People need to understand it isn't your job to fix them.
 

avaya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
London
Thanks for saying what I couldn't be bothered to.

I find with these people, especially the ones who should be our allies, that it is better to try than to ignore.
1. labour did so well in 2017 because they successfully made the election about things other than brexit - namely ending austerity and investing in people and the country. The manifesto was given as the main reason people voted Labour. And that did not focus heavily on Brexit.

2. Blair misled parliament to wage an illegal war in the middle east killing vast numbers of people of colour and he believes that was justified. Brown supported that too initially. In the 2005 general election campaign Labour were responsible for anti-semitic posters attacking the Jewish then tory leader Michael Howard (Alisatir Campbell was behind them, but strangely never gets taken to task for it). Labour in the Blair years also played a part in the increasing discrimination towards asylum seekers with resulting increases in poverty. To claim Blair isn't racist and Corbyn somehow is is simply not borne out by the facts. Corbyn was also one of the few labour MPs to vote against the utterly racist hostile immigration policy (most abstained).

And horseshoe theory is total bullshit.

3. Whether membership is declining or not (I have no idea) it is still far far larger than it has been in over a decade. And his electoral success is that he increased Labours seats in the last election and massively increased their share of the votes, putting them in a far stronger position to win the next election. The first time Labour have been up considerably since 1997 (they were down in all other elections other than the slight vote share increase in 2015).

4. I've already gone over his successes as Labour leader (which are many). He has greatly increased labours chances of winning a general election from their dire position in 2015. Labour under him helped ensure the Tories lost their majority (we would probably have left the EU under May's shitty deal if she got the majority she wanted). The Tory government over the past two years has lost more votes than any in decades and is incapable of getting almost anything through parliament (they even had to accept Labour amendments to last years budget which is simply unheard of. If it wasn't for the godawful fixed term parliament act the appalling lib dems and Tory cunts bequeathed us they would have collapsed ages ago). One Tory PM has already fallen (two counting Cameron) and the current one is already looking rattled. Corbyn has helped inspire many of the 'few' (don't even think about arguing against this as it is completely true whether you care to admit it or not) - many now feel that progressive change is possible (even though it's clearly really fucking hard).

5. Opinion polling in the last general election was mostly way off. Shut up with the magic Grandpa nonsense. A reputation is never final. And it's not just about Corbyn for Labour to win anyway.

You have far less evidence to support your assertions so quite how my claims are just emotion and illogical is beyond me,

Against, my better judgement that you are not actively trolling because this post reads as satire.

1. No, we have other data. Not just 2017. The LD vote has grown. Where do you think that comes from? It's people like me who will never vote for any party that facilitates Brexit. Labour is now polling level with the LDs. Any change there will be tactical remain voting.

2. Right. Making some stretches here I see.

3. Labour is not in a stronger position compared to where it was post 2017 election. You can not be serious. Labour is vulnerable in multiple marginals because of the leadership not committing to Remain and the loss of support to LDs.

4. So his success is lost 2017 election, lost local elections, lost European elections. You're still caught up on the myth of 2017. I mean that you seriously contest this makes me think you are a parody account. You did not list anything. Blair instituted the minimum wage. The most successful government policy of all time. Blair has done more for the working class in this country than Corbyn will in 100 lifetimes.

5. Do you understand how polling averages work? Do you know what being within 3 sigmas means? Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you think of Corbyn. No one cares. His narrative is set, he will never win an election. I will take that to the fucking bank. Your argument is akin to "Dreamcast will catch up to PS2".
 

*Splinter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,087
All this hiding behind "he won't win" is so cowardly. Why not just say you don't like Labour's policies so you aren't voting for them?
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
Why ever would you be more upset that the people responsible for Windrush are/were running the country?

People who don't understand picking lesser evils need to look deeper into politics and find strong minority voices to listen to.

Its on white people like me to listen if people like Beefy deem me worthy of advice or sharing their experiences. Cause there's no other way I can learn and understand what it's like for them, and how my vote can hurt minorities if I choose to waste it or stay home.

I hope you keep doing what you're doing. People need to understand it isn't your job to fix them.
I want to set the record straight here because I feel like the implication here is that I don't know these basic things.

I wasn't suggesting Beefy personally try and convert tories over to us, nor was I suggesting Beefy is responsible. Nor am I ignorant to the damage that the tory party has done to the country, particularly to minorities, particularly relating to windrush, nor do I think it is the responsibility of the oppressed to educate the people who indirectly oppress them. Nor am I saying people should vote tory and give them a chance. Nor am I even suggesting that Beefy like people who vote tory.

My only point was that in general, if we completely write off people who vote tory and don't talk to them, we're just going to be in a continuing cycle of 50 vs 50. My point was that voting tory doesn't not inherently make somebody evil, some people vote tory who's policies will directly harm themselves, some people in the UK live in areas where the real affects of tory policies are not visible. You can be a good person and woefully ignorant and politically uneducated.

I when I was younger did believe Tories to be inherently evil, this Brexit situation has shown me that there is some common ground between me and some tories, the one nation moderates, in that we both don't want to see Brexit occur.
 

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,810
There always seems to be mixed messages coming from Labour but suggesting they'd block an election before October 31st on Newsnight.



Think Corbyn would take flak for that after constantly saying he wants an election but I think it'd be a smart move, assuming the planned legislation holds up, not only does it stop any tricks from Johnson to force through no deal but it makes him look weaker for failing to deliver Brexit and probably means no pacts with Farage.


Wait, so what options does this leave, Johnson needs either a deal in place, or an extension (since there's no way he'll go for a ref) ?
 

nature boy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,877
All this hiding behind "he won't win" is so cowardly. Why not just say you don't like Labour's policies so you aren't voting for them?
"He won't win" as in he won't be top of the GE results. If there's by any chance and as highly unlikely as it seems a Labour Lib Dem SNP and Greens super coalition with Corbyn PM to stop brexit I'm sure everyone here would be elated.

And look at his unfavourables in the polls, no one is making this stuff up.
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,480
All this hiding behind "he won't win" is so cowardly. Why not just say you don't like Labour's policies so you aren't voting for them?

I'd probably (depends where I am living when the next election comes and the usefulness of the vote, tbqf) vote Labour (always have), yet still think Corbyn's a useless tool. This isn't rocket science, it's shitty politics.

To think this is impossible is either a complete lack of imagination or an adherence to politics-as-ideology to a stupid degree.
 
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Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,273
"He won't win" as in he won't be top of the GE results. If there's by any chance and as highly unlikely as it seems a Labour Lib Dem SNP and Greens super coalition with Corbyn PM to stop brexit I'm sure everyone here would be elated.

And look at his unfavourables in the polls, no one is making this stuff up.

Wikipedia actually has a page with aggregated results.


Corbyn's numbers are actually pretty awful. And this also kind of hurts the appeal to 2017. His numbers back then were way better. Given the massive dropoff and the lost elections to Remain, I'm less convinced by appeals to 2017.

Give me Lab/LD/SNP and then maybe Scotland gets out and can get back into the EU.
 

Deleted member 14649

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,524
This thread went to strange places last night - the strangest of all, probably being the self-proclaimed 'progressive' Blairite of this site (an oxymoron?), confessing he had no problem with supporting Blair and his cronies while they were bombing the shit out of children in Iraq, yet somehow cannot allow himself to vote for someone like Corbyn, because he failed to expel an alleged antisemite from his party. Or something. Strange times.
 

Dinoric

Member
Oct 28, 2017
970
He's a fucking anti-semite. It isn't hard to hate him if you're a progressive. I can't believe he is the head of a supposedly progressive party then I always forget the Labour party today is just the re-animated corpse of the Socialist Workers Party and the rest of the Militant faction which we thought we had finally ridded ourselves of decades ago. If we had a proper leader we'd be fucking miles ahead in the polls.
He's not a fucking anti-semite you fucking idiot.
 

DjRalford

Member
Dec 14, 2017
1,529
He's not a fucking anti-semite you fucking idiot.

He's not JUST an antisemitic prat who bashes Israel at every opportunity

He wants the monarchy to end
He supported the IRA
He likes hezbolla
He likes hamas
He refused to criticise russia
He's pally with Iran
He hates NATO
He idolises Chavez & Castro
He wouldn't criticise the islamic state without balancing their actions out against western society

The guy literally stands for the worst possible things in the world, and i hope that once Brexit is done, and he loses another election he pisses off never to be seen or heard from again.

Anyone even considering supporting him in my eyes are equally culpable.
 

AHA-Lambda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,798
So it's only the rebel bill being voted on today? Not an election or anything else significant?

Any expected timings for this?
 
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