BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson

Ando · Sep 8, 2019

Dirtyshubb said:

in both cases swinson's line is appealing to the same demographic: remain tories. people who are horrified by no-deal, farage and boris/cummings's purge but also think corbyn is a dangerous marxist over-spender who can't be prime minister. hence the openness to philip lee (& Amber Rudd in the future??) and signalling positivity about rory stewart in a seat they won't win. those voters are the key to swinson winning seats as there aren't many labour-lib dem marginals.

Xando · Sep 8, 2019

Deleted member 34788 · Sep 8, 2019

theaface said:
Alternative take: it's reckless and a dereliction of duty to put an option to the electorate that you know will cause massive damage to the country, especially when you've witnessed the same electorate voting against their own interests just 3 years prior.

Sure, however it wont just be May's deal repackaged. Labour pushed for both workers rights, environmental rights, human rights and a customs union to be either enshrined or added to the WA. Plus all the other bits to prevent damage done to the uk to be secured. I'd imagine they would ease the economic damage and societal pressures a shitty may deal would have as well, seeing as they would remove a whole deal of red lines the tory gov stuck to.

Still shittier then remaining or getting single market access and FoM ofc, but a world apart from May's basement level deal.

It would be tactical smart move from labour though, if they get into power, satisfy the leave wing of the party, respect the leave vote in the base, but still have a deal just shit enough that remain beats it. Or god forbid, remain loses once more, at least the UK would be in a much better position leaving then it would be under a tory Brexit deal. Beats going into the abyss.

Deleted member 862 · Sep 8, 2019

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...her-tory-rebels-in-general-election-m0cvdjlr8

At least three other expelled Tory rebels, including the former universities minister Sam Gyimah, former business minister Margot James and former attorney-general Dominic Grieve, have had similar talks with the Lib Dems about a "loose remain alliance", sources say.

Although Stewart supports leaving the EU with a deal, insiders say Swinson, whose party wants to stay in the bloc, is prepared to consider an electoral pact with candidates who oppose no-deal, rather than just those who are explicitly anti-Brexit.

electoral pact with brexit Tories? that's an interesting strategy for stopping brexit.

The Tory rebels are considering forming a new group. The "Independent Conservatives" and "Liberal Conservatives" are among names that have been floated.

move over, Change UK

UnholyChocolate · Sep 8, 2019

vastag said:
These idiots are poisoning the political and public discourse for the next decades. It doesn't matter if brexit happens or not, they are undermining democracy with each stupid stunt that they try. Fuck, it makes me so angry. Fucking assholes that will not face the consequences of their bullshit.

I really hope the next non con government has a full enquiry into this shit.

Minilla · Sep 8, 2019

Christ, Dominic raab makes me wants to punch my laptops screen in. Utter cunt

nature boy · Sep 8, 2019

FFS

Dary · Sep 8, 2019

Beefy said:
Man saying even tho Boris cheated with his then gf... he still loves and respects him... wat

Bo-Bo-Bo Boris, Britain's Greatest Love Machine...

III-V · Sep 8, 2019

What are the perceived bargaining chips to 'deal' with the E.U.?

Principate · Sep 8, 2019

Beefy said:
Man saying even tho Boris cheated with his then gf... he still loves and respects him... wat

This is actually an incorrect reading, it's still nonsense but she cheated with Boris with a dude before the person quoted, had a child with him. This dude then shows up wanting to raise that kid and keep the fact the kid's is boris' a secret.

This blows up in his face of course

JediTimeBoy · Sep 8, 2019

III-V said:
What are the perceived bargaining chips to 'deal' with the E.U.?

There aren't any afaik. The only things are the red lines, that the Tories set up themselves, that they could potentially cross, or move.

e.g. hypothetically, they could allow freedom of movement (which they won't), and maybe gain some "concessions" that way.

Cocolina · Sep 8, 2019

III-V said:
What are the perceived bargaining chips to 'deal' with the E.U.?

Fuck over Ireland is the main one

Deleted member 13077 · Sep 8, 2019

JediTimeBoy said:
There aren't any afaik. The only things are the red lines, that the Tories set up themselves, that they could potentially cross, or move.

e.g. hypothetically, they could allow freedom of movement (which they won't), and maybe gain some "concessions" that way.

God, imagine Brexit with freedom of movement retained. The gammons would explode.

JediTimeBoy · Sep 8, 2019

Feorax said:
God, imagine Brexit with freedom of movement retained. The gammons would explode.

What pisses me off, is that they're willing to have it the other way, where there's no reciprocal arrangement.

III-V · Sep 8, 2019

Cocolina said:
Fuck over Ireland is the main one

JediTimeBoy said:
There aren't any afaik. The only things are the red lines, that the Tories set up themselves, that they could potentially cross, or move.

e.g. hypothetically, they could allow freedom of movement (which they won't), and maybe gain some "concessions" that way.

I would have imagined London's status as a financial center to have some very high priority. It does seem that pissing off the Irish and the Scottish and the possible threat of the dissolution of the UK would be reason enough to dread lightly as opposed to delivering empty boasts. Still trying to understand the bigger picture, if There is one. Thanks

JediTimeBoy · Sep 8, 2019

III-V said:
I would have imagined London's status as a financial center to have some very high priority. It does seem that pissing off the Irish and the Scottish and the possible threat of the dissolution of the UK would be reason enough to dread lightly as opposed to delivering empty boasts. Still trying to understand the bigger picture, if There is one. Thanks

Bigger picture: The fucking Tories think that England is at the centre of the world, and that we have the right to use cowboy diplomacy to demand whatever we want. May pretty much acted in this way at the beginning, implying that the EU need us more than we need them.

Boris wants to leave without a deal, so he doesn't give a shit, and his plan was to make out the EU to be the bad guys.

The EU, unsurpisingly, told the Tories where to stick it, but even then, made more of a negotiation attempt than the Tories. In fact, the EU are the only ones who've made a real and concerted effort to compromise.

poklane · Sep 8, 2019

Bloomberg: French Minister Le Drian sees no Brexit delay as things stand

France isn't prepared to postpone the Oct. 31 deadline for the U.K.'s departure from the European Union "in the current state of things" as British authorities aren't providing evidence that they'll offer new solutions to end the Brexit deadlock, French Foreign Affairs Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said.

"They say they want to offer other solutions to ensure the withdrawal," Le Drian said Sunday in an interview with CNews television, when asked about a potential postponement of Brexit. "We haven't seen them, so it's no. We won't start over again every three months. Let the British Parliament, let the British authorities tell us what's the path."

Tacitus · Sep 8, 2019

III-V said:
What are the perceived bargaining chips to 'deal' with the E.U.?

Tuppen · Sep 8, 2019

Tacitus said:

That picture sums it up perfectly!

III-V · Sep 8, 2019

JediTimeBoy said:
Bigger picture: The fucking Tories think that England is at the centre of the world, and that we have the right to use cowboy diplomacy to demand whatever we want. May pretty much acted in this way at the beginning, implying that the EU need us more than we need them.

Boris wants to leave without a deal, so he doesn't give a shit, and his plan was to make out the EU to be the bad guys.

The EU, unsurpisingly, told the Tories where to stick it, but even then, made more of a negotiation attempt than the Tories. In fact, the EU are the only ones who've made a real and concerted effort to compromise.

Thanks. You have described the situation as I am able to perceive it as an American. Good to know. I was hoping there was something I was missing that would somehow paint it in some more complex light, but I doubt there is. Sad to see this mess, I'll be wishing the best for you all in your hour of bullshit.

III-V · Sep 8, 2019

III-V said:
Thanks. You have described the situation as I am able to perceive it as an American. Good to know. I was hoping there was something I was missing that would somehow paint it in some more complex light, but I doubt there is. Sad to see this mess, I'll be wishing the best for you all in your hour of bullshit.

Tacitus said:

I literally died.

Surprised no one posted the "Johnson " joke lmao.

JediTimeBoy · Sep 8, 2019

III-V said:
Thanks. You have described the situation as I am able to perceive it as an American. Good to know. I was hoping there was something I was missing that would somehow paint it in some more complex light, but I doubt there is. Sad to see this mess, I'll be wishing the best for you all in your hour of bullshit.

Funny thing is that no one really believed that Leave would end up winning. David Cameron thought Remain was a slam dunk. A bit like no one really believed Trump would win...

III-V · Sep 8, 2019

JediTimeBoy said:
Funny thing is that no one really believed that Leave would end up winning. David Cameron thought Remain was a slam dunk. A bit like no one really believed Trump would win...

Funny things happen when people decide not to vote.

Binabik15 · Sep 8, 2019

poklane said:
Bloomberg: French Minister Le Drian sees no Brexit delay as things stand

It's all bluster and bluffing...until it isn't. And I wouldn't even fault any EU leader for saying no. Not with...this.

To quote a baller statement:

"The Brexit is your choice not mine."

Dary · Sep 8, 2019

JediTimeBoy said:
Funny thing is that no one really believed that Leave would end up winning. David Cameron thought Remain was a slam dunk. A bit like no one really believed Trump would win...

Plenty of us outside the Metropolitan Bubble could've told you what would happen, but no one listened - which, of course, is what the real problem is.

kadotsu · Sep 8, 2019

Every EU leader will be given the choice to start a new recession. I doubt anyone will make that choice.

Koukalaka · Sep 8, 2019

Binabik15 said:
It's all bluster and bluffing...until it isn't. And I wouldn't even fault any EU leader for saying no. Not with...this.

To quote a baller statement:

"The Brexit is your choice not mine."

IMO there needs to cross-party plans drawn up for an emergency vote to revoke Article 50 as a last resort.

Garfield · Sep 8, 2019

Tbh anyone believing that the EU won't extend is just panicking over nothing, they have always said and continue to say they will not be the ones who cause the U.K. to crash out

JediTimeBoy · Sep 8, 2019

Dary said:
Plenty of us outside the Metropolitan Bubble could've told you what would happen, but no one listened - which, of course, is what the real problem is.

You honestly believed that Leave would win?

Garfield · Sep 8, 2019

JediTimeBoy said:
You honestly believed that Leave would win?

I live outside the cities and let me tell you the underinvestment in border on criminal. So I was not surprised at all, in fact if you look at a map of leave areas it is huge, it is only because more people live in cities that it was as close as it was

Deleted member 835 · Sep 8, 2019

Dary said:
Plenty of us outside the Metropolitan Bubble could've told you what would happen, but no one listened - which, of course, is what the real problem is.

Nah real problem is Leave is racist as fuck

*Splinter · Sep 8, 2019

Garfield said:
I live outside the cities and let me tell you the underinvestment in border on criminal. So I was not surprised at all, in fact if you look at a map of leave areas it is huge, it is only because more people live in cities that it was as close as it was

Well, yeah, but that's mostly just a demonstration that maps aren't a good way of viewing populations.

PJV3 · Sep 8, 2019

Garfield said:
I live outside the cities and let me tell you the underinvestment in border on criminal. So I was not surprised at all, in fact if you look at a map of leave areas it is huge, it is only because more people live in cities that it was as close as it was

Yeah, i still get annoyed at people who voted for austerity pretending to care about public services and the state of their towns, but the country should have done something about it long ago.

Deleted member 4482 · Sep 8, 2019

Garfield said:
I live outside the cities and let me tell you the underinvestment in border on criminal. So I was not surprised at all, in fact if you look at a map of leave areas it is huge, it is only because more people live in cities that it was as close as it was

as the classic response for american maps goes, dirt doesn't vote

Dary · Sep 8, 2019

Beefy said:
Nah real problem is Leave is racist as fuck

You realise Remainers positioning themselves as Morally and Intellectually Superior was/is a really fucking stupid idea?

Deleted member 835 · Sep 8, 2019

People going on about being poor is why people voted leave... why didn't many poc vote leave then? Seeing as the percentage (compared to the number of black people) of black people that are poor is way higher than white people. It is pretty obvious really, you got mugged of by racist propaganda and Farage. Tories are the problem not EU.

Deleted member 835 · Sep 8, 2019

Dary said:
You realise Remainers positioning themselves as Morally and Intellectually Superior was/is a really fucking stupid idea?

You realise trying to say a very very high percentage of leavers aren't racist is dumb. You voted for a racist campaign you at the very least didn't care about the racist shit spewed.

I have seen the hate and racism spewed by Leavers increase myself. Trying to tell me otherwise is lying to yourself.

MrKlaw · Sep 8, 2019

watching the News - they said the 'no no deal' legislation kicks in only on the 19th October? So johnson isn't needed to ask for an extension until then? There was a window To get a deal on the 17th with the EU but surely that would need to get passed by parliament so there is very little time to do that?

Cronen · Sep 8, 2019

MrKlaw said:
watching the News - they said the 'no no deal' legislation kicks in only on the 19th October? So johnson isn't needed to ask for an extension until then? There was a window To get a deal on the 17th with the EU but surely that would need to get passed by parliament so there is very little time to do that?

I believe it is a case that if a deal hasn't been brought to the house on the 19th (and a vote on it passes), or if a vote to proceed on the 31st without a deal fails, then the PM must get an extension.

Koukalaka · Sep 8, 2019

MrKlaw said:
watching the News - they said the 'no no deal' legislation kicks in only on the 19th October? So johnson isn't needed to ask for an extension until then? There was a window To get a deal on the 17th with the EU but surely that would need to get passed by parliament so there is very little time to do that?

I saw a Twitter thread somewhere which explained the logic behind all the elements of the bill, including the various deadlines - I'll try to find it.

Koukalaka · Sep 8, 2019

Beefy said:
People going on about being poor is why people voted leave... why didn't many poc vote leave then? Seeing as the percentage (compared to the number of black people) of black people that are poor is way higher than white people. It is pretty obvious really, you got mugged of by racist propaganda and Farage. Tories are the problem not EU.

IIRC, the analysis of voting data suggested this "working class folks in the North voted Leave, middle-class and well-off folks voted Remain" generalisation is hugely overstated.

Much of the Leave vote came from the suburbs and rural areas of the South. I think age was the single biggest determining factor for the vote for the most part, not socio-economic status.

Dary · Sep 8, 2019

Beefy said:
You realise trying to say a very very high percentage of leavers aren't racist is dumb. You voted for a racist campaign you at the very least didn't care about the racist shit spewed.

I have seen the hate and racism spewed by Leavers increase myself. Trying to tell me otherwise is lying to yourself.

And applying massive generalisations doesn't help anyone.

tuxfool · Sep 8, 2019

Beefy said:
People going on about being poor is why people voted leave... why didn't many poc vote leave then? Seeing as the percentage (compared to the number of black people) of black people that are poor is way higher than white people. It is pretty obvious really, you got mugged of by racist propaganda and Farage. Tories are the problem not EU.

This. Generally, minorities will be among the poorer percentiles of most European countries. The UK is no different.

Leave voting poverty is mostly a white person issue. Where you will see more (but not a lot) leave voting minorities is those second generation higher classes. The "fuck you, got mine" mentality.

Deleted member 835 · Sep 8, 2019

Dary said:
And applying massive generalisations doesn't help anyone.

You are part of the problem. You clearly don't see the racism spewed from Vote Leave or the majority of Leavers. You are why this country is in this mess. You are 100% why so many poc are giving up on this country.

People that turn a blind eye to the increased level of hatred me and other poc have had to go through are disgusting.

newline · Sep 8, 2019

Beefy said:
People going on about being poor is why people voted leave... why didn't many poc vote leave then? Seeing as the percentage (compared to the number of black people) of black people that are poor is way higher than white people. It is pretty obvious really, you got mugged of by racist propaganda and Farage. Tories are the problem not EU.

There's tonnes of factors that would lead to the average poor black person voting differently from the average poor white person. Labelling it as racism is reductive at best. His point stands that there's absolutely no use in taking a moral high ground from that. Xenophobic rhetoric however definitely played a large role in the Leave campaign, much like blatant economic lies did.

Lucreto · Sep 8, 2019

MrKlaw said:
watching the News - they said the 'no no deal' legislation kicks in only on the 19th October? So johnson isn't needed to ask for an extension until then? There was a window To get a deal on the 17th with the EU but surely that would need to get passed by parliament so there is very little time to do that?

The EU summit on the 19th is the sign off day. That means the deal has to be given to EU leaders to read long before that date. It could be a five thousand page document to review. Boris can't stroll up on the day and say here is the deal.

Deleted member 835 · Sep 8, 2019

newline said:
There's tonnes of factors that would lead to the average poor black person voting differently from the average poor white person. Labelling it as racism is reductive at best. His point stands that there's absolutely no use in taking a moral high ground from that. Xenophobic rhetoric however definitely played a large role in the Leave campaign, much like blatant economic lies did.

It is racism simple as

Binabik15 · Sep 8, 2019

Garfield said:
Tbh anyone believing that the EU won't extend is just panicking over nothing, they have always said and continue to say they will not be the ones who cause the U.K. to crash out

I doubt it is very likely to happen, but it takes only ONE. Bojo isn't the only clown leader in the EU.

The UK crashing out by sheer incompetence/accident is more likely than a Tory PM doing it on purpose is more likely than parliament agreeing to a No Deal is more likely than the EU refusing an extension, IMO. Who knows in this dark timeline, though.

Deleted member 835 · Sep 8, 2019

So many people ready to defend people that either are racist or are fine with racism is also why this country is like it is.

Being racist and fine with racism is the same, it still hurts people like me.

Dary · Sep 8, 2019

Beefy said:
You are part of the problem. You clearly don't see the racism spewed from Vote Leave or the majority of Leavers. You are why this country is in this mess. You are 100% why so many poc are giving up on this country.

Where did I say "racism isn't a problem"? That much is pretty obvious. But painting every single person who voted to leave the EU as a racist, who only voted that way because of racism is a massive simplification that plays right into the sort of Us vs Them mentality people like Farage feed on.

BREXIT |OT2.0| A parade of endless victories for Boris Johnson

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