Brexit: Labour announce backing for a second Brexit referendum

[thebishop]

I don't think Brexit is a matter of progressive/leftist principle. There are decent left arguments for leave, despite the Brexit campaign being driven by the nationalist right wing. It would've been possible for Labour, and Corbyn in particular to articulate a Brexit that was good for workers. Or better yet to articulate a Brexit that emphasizes international cooperation outside the neoliberal policy confines of the EU. Because of competing political pressures, Corbyn was not willing to do it.

Unfortunately, I suspect this latest move from Labour will empower the right wing further. The British public, looking for political change (granted this is fairly illusory change) will see that Labour is not on their side. It also compromises Corbyn's credibility as an enemy of the political establishment. Not good, folks.

 

[Diego Renault]

Good! Someone/Something has to stop this bloody madness!!

 

[FliX]

Good! Someone/Something has to stop this bloody madness!!

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They probably wont though... 😛

 

[DeltaRed]

I'm half hoping the EU just tells us to piss off when we ask for an extension so the country gets what it deserves.

 

[Diego Renault]

They probably wont though... 😛

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The Brits can't go down like that, man!!! They even survived War War II. If anything history has told England, it's that there can only be peace in this fucking world IF WE ALL STICK TOGETHER, goddamnit!!

 

[Facism]

The Brits can't go down like that, man!!! They even survived War War II. If anything history has told England, it's that there can only be peace in this fucking world IF WE ALL STICK TOGETHER, goddamnit!!

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Gammons think the UK won WW2 single-handily and that Churchill was the greatest, purest moral hero that ever existed. We're shit out of luck here and time is running out.

 

[Minky]

A craven, desperate bid to claw back support from a base that's fracturing at a rate of knots. Just late enough in the game to make it impossible to action anything of any real impact. A hollow, cynical gesture and nothing more. Labour's 2 years of meaningless posturing repulses me beyond belief, and I am angry with myself for ever being a member of theirs. This entire clusterfuck has enraged me to the point of complete apathy for our country's broken political system. Let it burn, fuck the whole lot of them.

 

[thebishop]

A craven, desperate bid to claw back support from a base that's fracturing at a rate of knots. Just late enough in the game to make it impossible to action anything of any real impact. A hollow, cynical gesture and nothing more. Labour's 2 years of meaningless posturing repulses me beyond belief, and I am angry with myself for ever being a member of theirs. This entire clusterfuck has enraged me to the point of complete apathy for our country's broken political system. Let it burn, fuck the whole lot of them.

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I'm guessing we don't agree on this, but the reaction is instructive. A clear position in either direction would be better than this waffling. What they're doing is just lousy politics.

 

[supremeplatypus]

I don't think Brexit is a matter of progressive/leftist principle. There are decent left arguments for leave, despite the Brexit campaign being driven by the nationalist right wing. It would've been possible for Labour, and Corbyn in particular to articulate a Brexit that was good for workers. Or better yet to articulate a Brexit that emphasizes international cooperation outside the neoliberal policy confines of the EU. Because of competing political pressures, Corbyn was not willing to do it.

Unfortunately, I suspect this latest move from Labour will empower the right wing further. The British public, looking for political change (granted this is fairly illusory change) will see that Labour is not on their side. It also compromises Corbyn's credibility as an enemy of the political establishment. Not good, folks.

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When the right wing are the main proponents of leave any leftist really has a duty to oppose leaving the EU to stop a right wing wet dream from happening. Because the left aren't going to be in power forever. No government stays in forever.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Galaxy brain with Scottish Labour



lol

 

[OwOtacon]

Fucking finally...

 

[jelly]

Are Scottish Labour aiming to get those few Tory seats rather than anything else. I mean wow. You think it couldn't get as bad again than vote Tory to stop the SNP but here we are.

 

[Cocaloch]

I'm half hoping the EU just tells us to piss off when we ask for an extension so the country gets what it deserves.

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This attitude will never stop being dumb. Brexit hurts real people, both British and European. Why wish for it as penance you're accepting for a bunch of other people?

 

[Acorn]

This attitude will never stop being dumb. Brexit hurts real people, both British and European. Why wish for it as penance your accepting for a bunch of other people?

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Things like that shouldn't be taken as more than exasperated nihilism. I've said shit like that before when heated but I don't mean it really.

 

[Cocaloch]

Things like that shouldn't be taken as more than exasperated nihilism. I've said shit like that before when heated but I don't mean it really.

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I mean I'm aware that's what it is. I still think it's gross and we're better off avoiding it.

 

[Temp_User]

Still pessimistically hoping for the best(ie. no Brexit) because Labour doing actually something about it is just too good to be true.

 

[Acorn]

I mean I'm aware that's what it is. I still think it's gross and we're better off avoiding it.

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Agreed.

 

[Zappy]

The trouble is it is too late. If Labour had come out for a 2nd ref even just in January then there was a real chance....a very real chance.....because they could have united enough Tories and the opposition behind it and by now that could have been a strong group pushing for it.

Now though there is not enough time to build parliamentary momemtum and the Independent group are a spanner in the works as the most ardent supporters of a 2nd referendum within the Tory ranks left - and the ones still in the Tory party are less likely to break ranks without the likes of Soubry and Allen to lead....

Its a shame because I think there was a genuine possibility of stopping this madness had Labour not dithered for so long.

 

[PJV3]

The trouble is it is too late. If Labour had come out for a 2nd ref even just in January then there was a real chance....a very real chance.....because they could have united enough Tories and the opposition behind it and by now that could have been a strong group pushing for it.

Now though there is not enough time to build parliamentary momemtum and the Independent group are a spanner in the works as the most ardent supporters of a 2nd referendum within the Tory ranks left - and the ones still in the Tory party are less likely to break ranks without the likes of Soubry and Allen to lead....

Its a shame because I think there was a genuine possibility of stopping this madness had Labour not dithered for so long.

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I don't think so, May would kick the issue into the long grass and let her MPs avoid having to make serious choices.

 

[TheGummyBear]

Corbyn doesn't deserve congratulating for turning around and changing his mind this late in the game. The announcement of support for a second referendum has spooked the hardcore Brexiteers in the ERG enough that Phillip Rees Mogg has dropped his opposition to the Irish backstop this morning. Could you imagine how much chaos could have been averted, how much better the deal would have been, if Labour was applying this kind of pressure months ago, if not from the moment Theresa May lost her super majority in 2016?

The lack of effective opposition to Brexit has left the radicals to run roughshod over this country, and drove us to a perilous cliff edge.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Are Scottish Labour aiming to get those few Tory seats rather than anything else. I mean wow. You think it couldn't get as bad again than vote Tory to stop the SNP but here we are.

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And that's a risky move considering soft-unionists are the same flip-floppers who went from Labour to SNP in the first place after they thought indyref was dead in 2015. Okay, some seemed to self-own and vote Tory in the snap election, but I bet there is some regret there.

Given that we've now witnessed the lengths of Tory ineptitude handling Brexit and a Labour party imploding, some of them might be stomaching a "fear" of indyref2 to vote for a party that actually seems like it knows how to properly oppose Tory madness.

And the longer Scottish Labour's inadequacy goes on, the greater the chance of some soft-unionists being swayed to say fuck it, let's leave this mess.

 

[Ferrasvansen]

Good to see old Scottish Labour doing its bit for independence....

 

[Zappy]

I don't think so, May would kick the issue into the long grass and let her MPs avoid having to make serious choices.

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Undoubtedly - but I think the momentum could have built. She's still kicking the can down the road (how on earth has she got away with this - its beyond a disgrace) and hoping a miracle will save her from having to make a decision.

The cyncic in me thinks the ERG want to see a delay or even no brexit so that they can then force a hard right takeover of the Tory party....surely May can see that by siding with a marginal group even within her own party she is effectively letting the extremists run the country.

 

[Nooblet]

Too fuckin late !
Holding a referendum alone would take several weeks, Article 50 comes into effect in a month.

We asked for this since last fuckin year !

 

[Zappy]

Corbyn doesn't deserve congratulating for turning around and changing his mind this late in the game. The announcement of support for a second referendum has spooked the hardcore Brexiteers in the ERG enough that Phillip Rees Mogg has dropped his opposition to the Irish backstop this morning. Could you imagine how much chaos could have been averted, how much better the deal would have been, if Labour was applying this kind of pressure months ago, if not from the moment Theresa May lost her super majority in 2016?

The lack of effective opposition to Brexit has left the radicals to run roughshod over this country, and drove us to a perilous cliff edge.

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Rees Mogg had softened since the January defeat of the deal. But he's saying that there needs to be a watertight ability for the UK to break away from the backstop unilaterally - he won't accept anything that doesn't change the legal position. He's been saying that since January and its stronger than many ERG views on it - essentially what he wants will not arrive.

 

[Zappy]

Too fuckin late !
Holding a referendum alone would take several weeks, Article 50 comes into effect in a month.

We asked for this since last fuckin year !

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A50 will be delayed though and the EU would delay without question for a 2nd Referendum. The delay for a 2nd referendum would need to be in excess of 6 months because there would need to be an Electoral Commission study carried out to recommend questions then the legislation passed etc....would take some delay - probably even a year.

 

[Nooblet]

A50 will be delayed though and the EU would delay without question for a 2nd Referendum. The delay for a 2nd referendum would need to be in excess of 6 months because there would need to be an Electoral Commission study carried out to recommend questions then the legislation passed etc....would take some delay - probably even a year.

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I wasn't aware A50 could be delayed. If that's the case then fine I guess.

 

[Zappy]

I wasn't aware A50 could be delayed. If that's the case then fine I guess.

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As of yesterday May has offered MPs a vote if her deal does not pass by 12th March. Vote 1 will be "leave with no deal" if that falls then vote 2 is "delay A50 till may/june".

 

[PJV3]

Too fuckin late !
Holding a referendum alone would take several weeks, Article 50 comes into effect in a month.

We asked for this since last fuckin year !

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If it becomes a serious possibility then I think everyone would make time for it to happen, it's probably going to be May's deal if slightly altered that wins through in the end.

Unless there's more Tories up for another referendum than I'm assuming.

 

[Deleted member 888]

So I found my times login to read more of the article

Mr Leonard also confirmed that he has warned Mr Corbyn that a second Brexit vote could increase demand for a second Scottish independence vote.

"There will be people who are agitating for a second independence referendum who will seize on any opportunity to increase pressure," he said. A poll carried out in December by Panelbase found that 52 per cent of Scots backed another Brexit vote. The previous month a Scottish sample of a UK-wide Populus survey indicated that 69 per cent backed a final say.

George Adam, the SNP MSP, said that Mr Leonard's comments would "utterly dismay many of [Labour's] own supporters".

"Almost as soon as Labour say they could support a second referendum, Richard Leonard says it would be better for Brexit to go ahead," he said. "That puts Labour completely at odds with the Scottish people — and it makes their apparent embrace of a second referendum look cynical in the extreme."

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It's what you'd think. Instead of prioritizing the best for the country no matter what, the bogeyman of "but indyref2" paralyzes them that much. The greatest irony being one of the best "antidotes" to worrying about indyref2 gaining steam was to go all in opposing the Tories and opposing a shit Brexit.

Not trying to play both sides.

 

[Aztechnology]

Reject the proposal. Vote to not leave in a new referendum. Assure EU of sincerety by changing the law for a brexit. To be a supermajority instead of majority.

 

[PJV3]

Reject the proposal. Vote to not leave in a new referendum. Assure EU of sincerety by changing the law for a brexit. To be a supermajority instead of majority.

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I don't think that would do anything as the next parliament up for a Brexit II could just change the rules at that time.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

This attitude will never stop being dumb. Brexit hurts real people, both British and European. Why wish for it as penance you're accepting for a bunch of other people?

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I feel there's something to say for dropping countries that are holding the progression of the EU back. Being a full-yet-not-full EU member might only hurt us in the long run - fostering division and skepticism instead of more and better unification. A proper Brexit (as in, not a no-deal Brexit), or the UK dropping to a less involved level of EU membership might be good for the EU as a whole, no?

Oftentimes we're holding on so strongly to "we must work together to reach a compromise", resulting in a country governed with no real coherent vision, making it worse than if it were one or the other. Sometimes it makes sense to split off so that you can try out more coherent ways of governing, individually, and advance the level of rhetoric essentially. It's sort of the same idea as here in resetera - without cordoning off yourself a bit, your level of discourse would drop, because we would have to argue basic shit like "homosexuality isn't bad" and such.

 

[Interested Observer]

As of yesterday May has offered MPs a vote if her deal does not pass by 12th March. Vote 1 will be "leave with no deal" if that falls then vote 2 is "delay A50 till may/june".

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So she'll ask parliament to vote on her deal again, despite losing heavily last time, but won't ask the British people if they still want Brexit because democracy?

 

[Aztechnology]

I don't think that would do anything as the next parliament up for a Brexit II could just change the rules at that time.

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Just for a show of good faith at least.

 

[Acorn]

Just for a show of good faith at least.

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It would be bad faith, it assumes the EU doesn't know one parliament can't bind the next.

 

[Deleted member 21431]

A new referendum ain't happening. I suspect May's deal will pass on the 12th cos many Tories and Labour MP's won't want to be going against the "will of the people".

For ultimate chaos: May's deal fails, No Deal vote is rejected AND the vote to extend A50 is rejected!

 

[Interested Observer]

A new referendum ain't happening. I suspect May's deal will pass on the 12th cos many Tories and Labour MP's won't want to be going against the "will of the people".

For ultimate chaos: May's deal fails, No Deal vote passes AND the vote to extend A50 is rejected!

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The extend vote is only triggered if the no deal vote fails. There's no need to extend if they decide to go for no deal.

 

[nekkid]

I'm half hoping the EU just tells us to piss off when we ask for an extension so the country gets what it deserves.

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We can extend it by 2 years or more without their permission, so...

 

[KingSnake]

We can extend it by 2 years or more without their permission, so...

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Are you talking about cancelling article 50 and then call it again? That will raise the fuckup to a whole new level.

 

[Deleted member 21431]

The extend vote is only triggered if the no deal vote fails. There's no need to extend if they decide to go for no deal.

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I meant the vote to stop no deal passes, I will amend my posting!

 

[Shodan14]

Are you talking about cancelling article 50 and then call it again? That will raise the fuckup to a whole new level.

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I proposed revoking art 50, May resigning after calling a new GE and retiring in the Bahamas a month or so back. Then the new government can choose to have new go at it or not.

 

[iapetus]

May's plan is transparent. Her deal gets voted down. No deal gets voted down. Extension gets vote down. May declares that this is clearly a vote for her deal, as she can't let no deal happen, and can't extend the vote.

 

[nekkid]

Are you talking about cancelling article 50 and then call it again? That will raise the fuckup to a whole new level.

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Nah we at that level already.

 

[Psychotext]

I can't wait to see who votes for no deal. You'll truly be able to judge those for whom money / power / xenophobia is more important than the good of the country.

 

[KingSnake]

Nah we at that level already.

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Not really. EU won't negotiate anymore, not even the current proposed deal, the pound would go nuts and more companies will make contingency plans without waiting for anything positive.

 

[nekkid]

I can't wait to see who votes for no deal. You'll truly be able to judge those for whom money / power / xenophobia is more important than the good of the country.

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I'm so proud that my MP will absolutely be one of those to do it.

Sorry, did I say "proud"?

 

[Zappy]

So she'll ask parliament to vote on her deal again, despite losing heavily last time, but won't ask the British people if they still want Brexit because democracy?

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Yep. Well, an amended deal.

End of the day I'm unconvinced by a 2nd referendum as I fear the vote would be leave again. Or worse - no deal.

But I don't think there is political will to do the right thing and put a brake on Brexit without public say so...but then there is not enough will for another public vote....its such a mess.

 

[jelly]

I can't wait to see who votes for no deal. You'll truly be able to judge those for whom money / power / xenophobia is more important than the good of the country.

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They'll have their excuse ready....will of the people, only following orders, don't blame me guv. Brexit is whatever they make it, they already white washed the meaning of the vote.

 

[Kaim Argonar]

The thing is even if you guys get a second referendum that changes the outcome, the UK should not be allowed to stay with the same special conditions it had before. It should be either full commitment to the EU like every other EU member has, or Brexit.