Brexit debate in the UK is turning really nasty

Silentbomber · Sep 27, 2019

Dyno said:
Tories in power ARE terrorists. Its economic terrorism thrust upon the people. Youre also saying you want a fuck ton of people to die so some racists 'learn a lesson'. Enlighten me how that isn't a terrorist view to hold.

I'm not saying that at all. I was originally saying how it is impossible to teach the leavers anything, no matter the outcome they will complain about it. I didn't mention Trump, or start name calling or insulting people - and my message is not about hurting people.

Geoff · Sep 27, 2019

nekkid said:
Aren't his brother and his father vocally Remain-biased as well?

His bro definitely is. Not sure about the father (by which I mean I don't know, not that I doubt it)

Afrikan · Sep 27, 2019

nekkid said:
Aren't his brother and his father vocally Remain-biased as well?

I thought his pops had his back? Wasn't he running around media circles doing interviews gloating when Boris finally got the gig?

Rangerx · Sep 27, 2019

They are using this language because they think it will garner them votes, regardless of the very real consequences for many people. Johnson and his cronies are morally bankrupt.

ConanEd · Sep 27, 2019

This is the result of 4 decades of works by Thatcher and Tory who split the interest of the financial services and the domestic industries, the coastal cities and the inland countryside. That's why one half of the britain can no longer agree with the other half of britain on any common issues.

TaySan · Sep 27, 2019

We Jews always get attacked and blamed for everything in history. It's sad and it looks like things are getting much worse before they will get any better

Plum · Sep 27, 2019

iapetus said:
Part of me says that any medicine in short supply should be rationed in the same manner, though it should start at the top - those who pushed for Brexit actively should be the first to suffer its consequences. Won't happen, of course, because those who pushed from it from the top are well off enough to weather the storm without problems.

But then, if I take that approach, aren't I part of the debate turning really nasty? And to what extent is it really fair to blame the people who've been methodically lied to and deceived?

It's perfectly fair to blame people who vote for something when it comes to the consequences of that thing. Information is more readily available than at literally any point in history before yet these people supported, and mostly still support, Brexit so, really, it's not nasty at all to say that they should be the ones who face the natural consequences of their actions.

Or put it this way. Death threads, riots and murder are not the natural consequences of taking a certain political stance whereas exiting the EU will naturally lead to all the shit that exiting the EU will bring.

7aged said:
Funny you mention this. I recently came across this piece on the very same topic: Populism is growing because more people than you think want chaos

It's really easy to want chaos until you see what it actually brings.

Rangerx said:
They are using this language because they think it will garner them votes, regardless of the very real consequences for many people. Johnson and his cronies are morally bankrupt.

The worst part is that it likely will garner them votes.

nekkid · Sep 27, 2019

Geoff said:
His bro definitely is. Not sure about the father (by which I mean I don't know, not that I doubt it)

Afrikan said:
I thought his pops had his back? Wasn't he running around media circles doing interviews gloating when Boris finally got the gig?

The BBC did this Brexit speed date thing where they had a remainer and a leaver discuss over coffee, and his father was there as a remainer talking about how it is to disagree with his family.

iapetus · Sep 27, 2019

Plum said:
It's perfectly fair to blame people who vote for something when it comes to the consequences of that thing. Information is more readily available than at literally any point in history before yet these people supported, and mostly still support, Brexit so, really, it's not nasty at all to say that they should be the ones who face the natural consequences of their actions.

Except those people have got their information from those sources that are available to them (print media, TV, the Internet etc.) and that information has been deliberately tainted. How much does the responsibility lie with them, and how much with those who deliberately tainted their information supply and continue to do so?

Geoff · Sep 27, 2019

Silentbomber said:
I'm not saying that at all. I was originally saying how it is impossible to teach the leavers anything, no matter the outcome they will complain about it. I didn't mention Trump, or start name calling or insulting people - and my message is not about hurting people.

I don't want to dog-pile you but I have to agree that I find comments like yours really frustrating as well.

This is what you said.

At this point I would like to see Brexit happen and all those people who voted for it suffer the consequences. It sounds terrible I know, but those people will never learn - especially if we somehow defeat brexit.

Now I know that you don't support Brexit, that you just as frustrated as the rest of us but here is the problem

At this point I would like to see Brexit happen

No.

Not for any reason. Leaving aside whether or not brexiteers would actually learn any lessons, it's too high a price to pay. Moreover, it's nihilistic and defeatist. It makes it sound like you've given up and you're ready to acquiesce to this nonsense just so you can say you were right. That's the wrong mindset. Winning the battle for who is right and who is wrong is irrelevant and futile. What matters is stopping the policy that is damaging our society and endangering lives and living standards. If brexit does get stopped, remain will never win the argument because the things we all believe will happen if brexit does, won't happen, obviously. But the important thing is that it gets stopped.

And the war is not over by a long shot, all to play for so don't lose heart and don't give up - even if that just means arguing with people on twitter or voting the right way. Despair leads to apathy and apathy leads to defeat.

Rangerx · Sep 27, 2019

Plum said:
The worst part is that it likely will garner them votes.

Yeah unfortunately all the polling indicates that to be the case.

Geoff · Sep 27, 2019

nekkid said:
The BBC did this Brexit speed date thing where they had a remainer and a leaver discuss over coffee, and his father was there as a remainer talking about how it is to disagree with his family.

I suppose, really, it's not that weird that all his family support remain because it's fairly widely know that Boris himself was never the most ardent brexiteer and thought very hard about which campaign to back in the referendum. Ultimately he chose Leave because, it is suspected, he considered that the most likely path to personal advancement, which he was right about though I doubt he envisaged things turning out exactly as they have done.

Geoff · Sep 27, 2019

Just to inject some hope into this thread and cross posting from another forum - these are the latest poll results together with a link to how those results extrapolate to seats. Basically, if the election shakes down like these polls suggest it will, brexit is dead. It's a huge 'if' though.

ComRes 24 Sep

CON: 27% (-2)
LAB: 27% (-)
LDEM: 20% (-1)
BREX: 17% (+4)

Survation 25 Sep

CON: 27% (-2)
LAB: 24% (-)
LDEM: 22% (+4)
BREX: 16% (-1)
SNP 4 (-)
Green 3 (-)
AP 4 (-2)

Both of those (in fact the last three polls) see the Tories fall well short of a majority per https://flavible.com/politics/map/polls?sid=2303

Though pinch of salt required with those extrapolations imo

But one striking observation, according to those maps, is that BXP votes really fuck the tories. We knew that already but perhaps not quite the scale of the impact. As soon as BXP get above 15% Tory seats start tumbling whereas BXP pick up hardly any.

Squirrel Killer · Sep 27, 2019

Geoff said:
This was raised in the house, together with the example of Jo Cox, a Labour MP who was murdered in the street in the run up to the referendum by a far right activist for her support of remain. the PM dismissed the concerns as 'humbug' (meaning inconsequential).

How the fuck can he be so blithe when someone has literally been assassinated over this?

Plum · Sep 27, 2019

iapetus said:
Except those people have got their information from those sources that are available to them (print media, TV, the Internet etc.) and that information has been deliberately tainted. How much does the responsibility lie with them, and how much with those who deliberately tainted their information supply and continue to do so?

Everyone has access to the internet and everyone has the ability to actually think about what they're being told so in the end, the responsibility does lie with them whether they were deceived or not. Just as you'd never excuse a racist for not knowing that blackface is bad you shouldn't excuse a Brexiteer for voting how they chose to vote. That Brexiteers have shown no sign of relenting since then despite the 1984-levels of narrative-shifting and increasingly disgusting rhetoric and actions makes it even worse.

Basically it shouldn't be up to those who voted Remain or couldn't vote to coddle those who voted Leave, and if that seems 'nasty' then maybe they should have thought about that before hurling bricks through people's windows and calling death threats on children. Right now the fact that we're all going to suffer the same consequences is the unfortunate reality instead of the 'good thing' to do, and it would be so much better if the inevitable rationing and shortages hurt them instead of those who are completely innocent in this shit-show.

Sorry to sound so heated but, at the end of the day, they're not children and we shouldn't treat them as such.

Geoff said:
Just to inject some hope into this thread and cross posting from another forum - these are the latest poll results together with a link to how those results extrapolate to seats. Basically, if the election shakes down like these polls suggest it will, brexit is dead. It's a huge 'if' though.

ComRes 24 Sep

CON: 27% (-2)
LAB: 27% (-)
LDEM: 20% (-1)
BREX: 17% (+4)

Survation 25 Sep

CON: 27% (-2)
LAB: 24% (-)
LDEM: 22% (+4)
BREX: 16% (-1)
SNP 4 (-)
Green 3 (-)
AP 4 (-2)

Both of those (in fact the last three polls) see the Tories fall well short of a majority per https://flavible.com/politics/map/polls?sid=2303

Though pinch of salt required with those extrapolations imo

But one striking observation, according to those maps, is that BXP votes really fuck the tories. We knew that already but perhaps not quite the scale of the impact. As soon as BXP get above 15% Tory seats start tumbling whereas BXP pick up hardly any.

Unfortunately this only seems hopeful if 1) things stay as they are 2) this isn't just another wrong poll and 3) we don't crash out before a GE can even happen. As such I just can't take any hope in it.

Tacitus · Sep 27, 2019

Turning?

This was almost three years ago.

CalamityPixel · Sep 27, 2019

I blame media. Newspaper especially needs regulating.

Geoff · Sep 27, 2019

Plum said:
Unfortunately this only seems hopeful if 1) things stay as they are 2) this isn't just another wrong poll and 3) we don't crash out before a GE can even happen. As such I just can't take any hope in it.

Not that I want to give you false hope but It should be noted that the last three polls (survation, comres and yougov) have all produced a result that is more likely than not to end up in a Tory defeat if replicated at the ballot. Things are not staying as they are and part of that is because the Tory vote is shifting to BXP, which, ironically, is the silver bullet for the brexit werewolf. Crashing out looks unliklely too but shenanigans are assuredly afoot so hard to say for sure,

Xando · Sep 27, 2019

Tygre said:
The PM, his advisors like Cummings, and their pets in the written press are drumming this stuff up intentionally:

All these old brexiteers gonna fight riot police or what?

Onix555 · Sep 27, 2019

History has shown that peaceful methods have absolutely no effect on the Right.

The only way to remove them is through physical action.

Deleted member 426 · Sep 27, 2019

Johnson is a real piece of shit for trying to whip up the public against parliament. Most definitely the worst Prime Minister I've seen in my lifetime and he's only been there a few weeks. A petty, arrogant, petulant man baby.

nekkid · Sep 27, 2019

If someone could inject Cummings with a vial of cancer, that would be great.

CD_93 · Sep 27, 2019

nekkid said:
If someone could inject Cummings with a vial of cancer, that would be great.

Please don't make his case for him.

Geoff · Sep 27, 2019

Onix555 said:
History has shown that peaceful methods have absolutely no effect on the Right.

The only way to remove them is through physical action.

The obvious parallel here is with Spain and Germany. In Spain that lead to a civil war which was lost, in Germany, the fascists and in particular, the brownshirts, made physical action difficult and dangerous. I really don't think that rioting is the right way to go here, that could go very bad, very quickly.

Deleted member 442 · Sep 27, 2019

It was nasty when the far right murdered an mp during the referendum. The only thing new is the leader of the Conservative party turning that into a reason to leave.

Elfotografoalocado · Sep 27, 2019

This is what happens when deranged racist and ethnicist movements and politicians pass their exclusive and divisive projects for democracy and freedom.

It's not just happening in the UK, here in Spain, it's the same thing in Catalonia, with a regional government that seeks to impose the views of less than half the population, violating the rights of the opposition, the law, and attacking the judicial power whenever they can.

Just like with Brexit, there is an opressive climate where being against that narrative means being a traitor to the eternal nation. Now, we have people arrested for crafting explosives, and the regional president demanding "a democratic movement not be equated to terrorism", that these arrests show how Spanish democracy is leaking, and that these arrests were "the Spanish State entering the houses of Catalans in the middle of the night".

It's quite the scary world we are heading to, when undemocratic politicians left and right manage to pass as deliverers of freedom using tactics and discourse out of the 1930s, and the institutions don't have enough to prevent their abuse.

Dan · Sep 27, 2019

What we're seeing here is decades of anger that was previously bubbling under the surface exploding into plain view.

And make no mistake, simply stopping Brexit will not solve these issues. Like the Scottish referendum, a win for one side will always see the other side calling for another to get the result they want.

This is an example for the world that referenda is no way to decide such decisions.

The hate we are seeing and disillusionment in our political system and image of representatives in Parliament being interpreted as not representing their constituents views will only see worse, much worse than we are seeing right now.

offshore · Sep 27, 2019

Nobody should be surprised. The UK has had millions of... low information... citizens for the longest time, and only moderately stable govt's kept them suppressed and in-check.

But with the leave vote, 2 openly hostile govt's in a row and an even more hysterical media, they're no longer scared to hide, and so the racism, xenophobia and ignorance that is prevalent in many UK citizens is clear for everybody to see.

I'm not sure it's recoverable. Brexit - whether it happens or not - can no longer reconcile 2 wildly different ideologies. IMHO the United Kingdom is finished.

Unknown Unknown · Sep 27, 2019

Seems like gangster intimidation tactics, too. Any money trails? No doubt too many going back centuries for my Canadian mind to imagine.

Onix555 · Sep 27, 2019

Geoff said:
The obvious parallel here is with Spain and Germany. In Spain that lead to a civil war which was lost, in Germany, the fascists and in particular, the brownshirts, made physical action difficult and dangerous. I really don't think that rioting is the right way to go here, that could go very bad, very quickly.

But by standing down and doing nothing, you let fascists take control. And once they have control, the only way to get rid of them is military action; followed by thousands/millions of deaths.

Better for the Left to act first instead of them

Gareth · Sep 27, 2019

Sasari · Sep 27, 2019

As a Brit, what I think people don't understand is this will never end. Never.

If we cancel Brexit, every bloody election it will be brought up, suggested again.
If we leave, in a few years people will be campaigning to rejoin.

Forever.

Geoff · Sep 27, 2019

Onix555 said:
But by standing down and doing nothing, you let fascists take control. And once they have control, the only way to get rid of them is military action; followed by thousands/millions of deaths.

Better for the Left to act first instead of them

The democratic process is not yet exhausted and remain is (probably, marginally) winning that battle at the moment. So there is another way to get rid of them

DavidDesu · Sep 27, 2019

Jeff Albertson said:
I live in the north west so am surrounded by Brexiteers, I just can't see any way round it now these fuckers would go mental if their previous Brexit was stopped!

Yeah England is fucked. I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. The latent racism that has always existed within a sizeable strand of British culture has awoken thanks to this and the decades of endless bullshit from the right wing press radicalising people day in day out. I feel for people like myself who live down south. In Scotland you have plenty of those people as well but they are in the minority and there's plenty of people you might expect to hold such views who are actually really open minded in general, hence why Scotland votes more left wing and votes strongly to Remain. If Boris Johnson and co get their No Deal through some nefarious, Parliament breaking mechanism, then Scotland will be off pronto and they will have to send tanks up here to try and stop it or start arresting SNP MSP's for "treason" through some fucked up interpretation, or the creation, of laws (which I would not put past them quite honestly if they succeed in their No Deal coup and for what comes after). Fingers crossed though, since the little Englanders are so stupid and genuinely believe Scotland needs England they will just let us go and get on our home made lifeboat.

But yeah the moderate English citizen or immigrant living down south.. you just need to be prepared to fight in every way necessary to not let the country turn into something that will be taught about in history books.

Plum · Sep 27, 2019

Geoff said:
Not that I want to give you false hope but It should be noted that the last three polls (survation, comres and yougov) have all produced a result that is more likely than not to end up in a Tory defeat if replicated at the ballot. Things are not staying as they are and part of that is because the Tory vote is shifting to BXP, which, ironically, is the silver bullet for the brexit werewolf. Crashing out looks unliklely too but shenanigans are assuredly afoot so hard to say for sure,

Yeah, I don't think you're particularly wrong but I just don't see the point in having much hope right now as I've got no funds and no time to actually do anything about it. I've made sure that me and my family are registed to vote and I'll be there ASAP on the day when we do have to vote again (though where I live isn't exactly a 'marginal' seat, unfortunately).

Xando said:
All these old brexiteers gonna fight riot police or what?

This is a nice thought (that Brexiteers are all too old to riot) but I wouldn't be surprised that there's plenty of young yobs and Phil Mitchell types just waiting for an excuse to kick off.

Gareth said:

Thank god he didn't call racist words racist. We'd have a situation on our hands if he did that!

1.21Gigawatts · Sep 27, 2019

Well, there was an election where millions of voters were targeted with billions of personalized propaganda ads. Paid for with illegal cash and personalized with the help of stolen Facebook data.

The people who campaigned for Brexit quickly disappeared and the ones with at least some sense of responsibility tried to negotiate a deal that wouldn't be terrible for the UK, but since leaving the EU is inherently a terrible idea, they had no success, until Johnson came along with his No Deal course.

Billionaires have long started betting against the UK and against the pound, hoping to make money off of Brexit. Hoping to make money off of the country going down the shitter.
And the usual suspects mirror the billionaires interests, obviously. Large parts of the conservative media and large parts of the conservative politicians will now do everything they can to hurt the country so that a few money men are happy.

And this entire scam is sold to the people on the basis of a nationalist delusion. A fairytale for the dull masses playing with their primitive sense of identity. Automatically rendering the opponents of the exercise in national self harm a mortal enemy to those who have identified with the idea of Brexit, who are emotionally invested in a vision of the UK that can't possibly exist.

A democracy was hijacked, a people was infected with vile propaganda eroding the very fundament of the British value system, by grabbing the people by their emotions and circumventing reason. The UK now has a significant amount of radicalized nationalists who are hell bent on dragging the country down, they are not open to rational arguments, they are guided by resentment and hate, by propaganda that appealed to their lowest and most primitive emotions.
The past few years in the UK are a prime example of how a democracy can destroyed, and nobody even seems to realize that this is whats happening.

I'm not surprised this is turning ugly. I'm rather surprised the UK institutions and laws even allowed these things to happen in the first place.
But I'm surprised there are so many politicians willing to sell out their country and its people.

Puroresu_kid · Sep 27, 2019

Gareth said:

Hate that guy. An absolute tool as well as disgrace. You would never think he was Irish.

Unknown Unknown · Sep 27, 2019

Can the Queen command the nation to calm down?

Senator Rains · Sep 27, 2019

It's crazy how racism seeds through a country. I only took one jackass to literally bring down the whole of UK.

I'm sorry this is happening. For outsiders it's very easy to laugh and call it Karma, when the truth is honest and innocent people are suffering the consequences.

How the flip did Boris get elected anyway? Wasn't the majority of the UK against brexit (after the May disasters)? Why would people vote for a moron to handle the country's most critical phase?

FaceHugger · Sep 27, 2019

Not surprised. Saddened, though. It's a shame so many people the world over have fallen prey to the hateful thinking of the right.

16bits · Sep 27, 2019

Dyno said:
Torys are Terrorists and always have been. The media are propagandists propping up their favourite arm of terrorists. The country is half made up of the same brainwashed morons who believe anyone not English should die for being here and that the English are somehow an exceptional case, despite every given example of being a non functional cretin.

whats wrong with you?

Humidex · Sep 27, 2019

Senator Rains said:
How the flip did Boris get elected anyway? Wasn't the majority of the UK against brexit (after the May disasters)? Why would people vote for a moron to handle the country's most critical phase?

92,000-odd Conservative party members decided on the next leader after May resigned. It never went to a public vote. Currently there's no framework that automatically calls for a general election in the event of a PM stepping down.

Deleted member 38573 · Sep 27, 2019

Senator Rains said:
It's crazy how racism seeds through a country. I only took one jackass to literally bring down the whole of UK.

I'm sorry this is happening. For outsiders it's very easy to laugh and call it Karma, when the truth is honest and innocent people are suffering the consequences.

How the flip did Boris get elected anyway? Wasn't the majority of the UK against brexit (after the May disasters)? Why would people vote for a moron to handle the country's most critical phase?

we didn't vote for him. his party was in power so they took it upon themselves to elect Boris.

Deleted member 14080 · Sep 27, 2019

Smells like Balkans in the early 1990. Volatile situation, all it needs is for someone to throw the matchstick.
Hope it'll all be sorted by October 31st although it doesn't look like that's the case from this vintage point.

Dan · Sep 27, 2019

Onix555 said:
But by standing down and doing nothing, you let fascists take control. And once they have control, the only way to get rid of them is military action; followed by thousands/millions of deaths.

Better for the Left to act first instead of them

The biggest representation of the left in this country, the Labour Party has a leadership and membership that has just done that - essentially stood down and do nothing. They cannot be left unaccountable in contributing to the state of politics here.

I'm sure I will be jumped on by a lot here for saying that, but it's true.

Geoff · Sep 27, 2019

d9b said:
Smells like Balkans in the early 1990. Volatile situation, all it needs is for someone to throw the matchstick.

This is why I think civil disorder/riots etc are a very bad idea. Both sides can play that card and it won't be easy to put it back in the bottle once it has begun.

PJV3 · Sep 27, 2019

d9b said:
Smells like Balkans in the early 1990. Volatile situation, all it needs is for someone to throw the matchstick.
Hope it'll all be sorted by October 31st although it doesn't look like that's the case from this vintage point.

I don't think so at all, it's a tiny minority that are acting like complete loonies.
Whatever happens, stay or leave, it will gradually calm down again. i could be wrong but it's just the tories playing hard to win.

Geoff · Sep 27, 2019

Dan said:
The biggest representation of the left in this country, the Labour Party has a leadership and membership that has just done that - essentially stood down and do nothing. They cannot be left unaccountable in contributing to the state of politics here.

I'm sure I will be jumped on by a lot here for saying that, but it's true.

No argument here as a former Labour Party member

Deleted member 38573 · Sep 27, 2019

Dan said:
The biggest representation of the left in this country, the Labour Party has a leadership and membership that has just done that - essentially stood down and do nothing. They cannot be left unaccountable in contributing to the state of politics here.

I'm sure I will be jumped on by a lot here for saying that, but it's true.

Wat. They've taken no-deal off the table.

What else could they have done. Gone scorched earth mode like the lib dems have (and only very recently)? There will be a country after Brexit and throwing 5 million odd Labour voters that voted leave to the Tories would be disastrous. The Tories still, to this day, believe in austerity politics (basically why we're in this brexit mess imo).

Labour aren't in power they can't cancel shit, stop falling for right wing talking points. EDIT: More accurately, Question Time esque talking points, Labour aren't perfect but we can do better than "Labour have done nothing"

Haribokart · Sep 27, 2019

Brexit voters and Tory scum are no longer welcome in my life. I am so disappointed in this country.

nekkid · Sep 27, 2019

CD_93 said:
Please don't make his case for him.

An over-exaggerated, unrealistic proposition is not exactly equal to a literal brick through a window.

Brexit debate in the UK is turning really nasty

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