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Who is the greatest of their era?

  • Bret Hart

    Votes: 521 70.7%
  • Shawn Michaels

    Votes: 216 29.3%

  • Total voters
    737

dakun

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,547
Bret is a better wrestler and a better man.
Bret's heel promos from 97 are among the best ever imo.
Bret lifted up other wrestlers around him while Shawn never thought about anybody but himself and his friends

Tooo many differences to count in favor of Bret Hart really
 

Zeliard

Member
Jun 21, 2019
10,943
People say Bret was dull on the mic but I don't remember Michaels ever being entertaining on the mic at all. He let his swinging hips do the talking.

Only fun Michaels promo I've ever seen, I saw on youtube long after I stopped watching wrestling, when he and Triple H mocked Vince and Shane McMahon:

youtu.be

DX Imitates the McMahons part 1

DX imitating the mcmahonsno copyright infringement intended this is for entertainment purposes only no profit is being made off of this video.
 

Sanjuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,013
Massachusetts
HBK was above average on the mic. Bret took a while and is kind of high/low depending on the promo.

I'd probably put them on a similar plateau.
 

shintoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,079
HBK was the better wrestler. Bret was the better in ring storyteller.
HBK has more great matches. Bret has the GOAT match.
HBK was better on the mic. Bret walked the line of real/fake better on it.
 

bananab

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,856
Don't like DX at all and I can't turn that part of my brain off enough to really enjoy HBK in the ring, though I know he's good. Always have a good time watching Bret and I personally always get a kick out of how he's always complaining about Vince/Shawn/Goldberg and others. He's a funny dude.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,240
The other thing I'm gonna bring up for Bret is the Tom Magee story.

Tom Magee was a prospect for the WWF in 1986. He had a great look for 1986 WWF but he really, really could not work in the ring. (It's like Vince McMahon has a type.)

They book him to work with Bret Hart. Bret sits down with the guy, asks for the best 3 spots he's got, they draw up a match, and they go out and do it. You can find this match online now, someone found it and WWE posted it a few years ago, but it was lost to time for quite a while. It's a pretty good match, nothing spectacular but it works and the crowd definitely connects with Magee. If you watch critically, you can also see Bret struggling to work with this guy, but it comes off in the end. Supposedly Vince was ecstatic after seeing the match and thought he had a new star on his hands. More exposure over time would prove this to not be the case.

Bret took this guy who didn't particularly have a great wrestling toolkit and was able to produce a match that a crowd ate up and made Vince McMahon think he was looking at his next hot new thing.

Shawn Michaels has never, and could never. Shawn Michaels works his matches around his opponents, not with his opponents.
 
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Karsha

Member
May 1, 2020
2,502
While HBK is the biggest asshole, people seem to forget that Bret was one too. There's something going on the latest years on the internet, I think its related to the whole Cm Punk's idol and rise of AEW where people are thinking of Bret as some kind of wrestling god and saint. He wasn't, he was pretty much a prick before the incident and after that became way too bitter (which is understandable but still...)

Here's the thing though, I do consider Bret one of the greatest along Hogan, SCSA etc while I don't consider Michaels in the same plateau. Michaels might have Bret beaten on every category, but I don't think he ever was that prime time main eventer that Bret was for some years...
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
shawn wasn't trying to take the belt to another company. If Bret was taking a break then that would've been different, they would've just vacated the title on raw and move on

but how can you expect vince to let your champion pin your next top guy clean then walk into wcw? vince is an asshole but he did what he had to do

He asked Bret to void his contract
He gave Bret creative control on his exit
Bret was fiercely loyal and never wanted to leave in the first place
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
I get why Bret didn't want to drop the title, but ultimately you do what the promoter asks of you, especially if you are on the way out. Shawn beating Bret for the title in Canada was necessary. Like yeah it sucks but do the job. If not shenanigans occur.

Lol

Bret followed his contract
Bret was being asked to give up millions
Vince later found all that money he couldn't afford ti give Bret barely months after begging Bret to sever his contract
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,114
Shawn all day, every day. Bret couldn't cut a promo to save his life until his last year in WWF, which coincidentally was the last year he was relevant. Shawn could have a great and unique match with anybody, Bret had the same dozen spots, but he'd change up the finish occasionally, you know, for spice!

I guarantee you if you polled all the top guys active during that period to name the top 5 matches that they've ever had, Shawn Michaels would be named at least twice to a man. Bret would be named once among half of them.
 

ElectricBlanketFire

What year is this?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,833
As a kid, I was always enamored with the Intercontinental Belt over the World Title and never knew why. Later I found out it's because workers like Rick Rude, Ricky Steamboat, Mr. Perfect, Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels were involved in the matches and incredible workers.

Talent wise, I'd consider Bret and Shawn to be relative equals. But Bret just had a way of making everything seem real. Probably because he felt the importance for it to be real. Shawn was an all-time great, but a massive prick who then tried to parlay his "born again Christian" gimmick into fooling people that he changed when that's all it was...a gimmick. Totally insecure dickhead. Backed up by any number of shoot interviews with other wrestlers.

Bret is the man.

bret-hart.gif
 

krae_man

Master of Balan Wonderworld
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,595
Shawn all day, every day. Bret couldn't cut a promo to save his life until his last year in WWF, which coincidentally was the last year he was relevant. Shawn could have a great and unique match with anybody, Bret had the same dozen spots, but he'd change up the finish occasionally, you know, for spice!

Ah yes, Shawn never did flying forearm, kip up, atomic drop, body slam, elbow off the top rope, tune up the band every match.

Bret is reruns with his Russian leg sweep, forearm off the second rope, backbreaker every match!
 
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Host Samurai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,160
Bret. Not only is he my favorite of all time, but he's soooooo fucking good. I'd rather watch him give someone a suplex, Russian leg sweep, Brets Rope elbow and a back breaker than watch any of these new guys do flippy shit, cuz it looks so fucking good.

Top Bret matches
- vs Mr Perfect SS 91
- vs Stone Cold WM13
- vs Diesel SS 95

Bret was also right about America during his heel run in 97. Bret was always a class act inside and outside the ring, which was why I connected with him when I was a kid. He was definitely my hero and in same ways he shaped me into the person I am today. He's a class act. Bret will always be my GOAT.

Unpopular opinion, but HBK lost a step during his second act, he wasn't nearly as quick and agile and looked significantly thinner, and those awful leather pants sucked. HBK's first run was significantly better. I think his second run gets more love because during that time, he was still the best on that roster, despite obviously not being as athletic as he was in the 90's.
 
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BabyShams

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,836
All these people choosing Shawn are a bunch of jabronie marks without a life that don't know it a work when you work a work and work yourself into a shoot,marks.
 

Lunchbox-

Member
Nov 2, 2017
11,871
bEast Coast
Yeah, it's smart to go through their top matches from their prime.

Maybe Bret has the edge?
nothing he has tops HBK-Taker 1 or 2

also-
HBK Flair
HBK Razor ladder match
HBK Angle
HBK Bret
HBK Mankind
HBK Benoit HHH
my man even got a 4 star out of cena and hhh and his hogan match is hilarious as every hogan match should be

bret's resume is very limited compared to that. His matches were consistently good, but it took someone special to take them to the legendary levels that shawn reached at his peaks

Shawn was easily the better story teller. just the ending of that HBK-Flair match has more charisma than bret harts whole career
 

Lunchbox-

Member
Nov 2, 2017
11,871
bEast Coast
You've literally named all the Hart matches that are actually memorable. Adding to the list of the person you've quoted Shawn also has:

HBK v Sid
HBK v Diesel
HBK v HHH
All of his Royal Rumble performances.

It isn't even close.
and his Survival Series, triple threats, Elimination chamber and hell in a cell performances while pulling out a match of the year vs Shelton benjamin on a generic raw

hbk's versitality is unmatched


tell bret to jump of a ladder and he'll start lecturing you on the honor and moral code of the maple syrup way or some shit and do 3 leg sweeps instead
 
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Oct 25, 2017
5,531
HBK was exciting as fuck to watch. Bret I appreciate more now that older but he always came across as a grumpy old man even when he was in his 20s.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
You've literally named all the Hart matches that are actually memorable. Adding to the list of the person you've quoted Shawn also has:

HBK v Sid
HBK v Diesel
HBK v HHH
All of his Royal Rumble performances.

It isn't even close.

Austin Survivor Series 96, Hart Foundation stuff, Benoit on Nitro, Bulldog Summerslam 92

Sid vs Shawn is beaten by Bret's work in general and Bret had multiple matches with Nash better than Shawn's
 

PHOENIXZERO

Member
Oct 29, 2017
12,071
I prefrred Owen for the most part but between Bret and Shawn 100% Bret. His matches made sense, everything he did he did for a reason and generally avoided the flashy bullshit that there's too much of now. IMO wrestling would be in a better place today if more guys who came after looked more towards Bret than they did Shawn, especially when so many seemingly took the wrong lessons from his ring work. Bret knew how to carry someone to the best match of their lives without having to bump all over the place and as far as I remember never intentionally tried to bury someone in the ring. Shawn was more versatile in the ring and a better athlete, it's more mindset than anything why IMO Bret is better.


People like to shit on Kevin Nash for being a terrible draw for the WWF as champion but Shawn was almost as bad, crowds that were overwhelmingly men were turning on him after WrestleMania XII. It's probably another reason why his insecure ass had such a big chip on his shoulder.

shawn wasn't trying to take the belt to another company. If Bret was taking a break then that would've been different, they would've just vacated the title on raw and move on

but how can you expect vince to let your champion pin your next top guy clean then walk into wcw? vince is an asshole but he did what he had to do
They agreed to a DQ ending, there's a lot of audio from Wrestling With Shadows on what went down between them. Bret would've been fine dropping the belt even to Shawn the next night and he was still with the WWF for another 30 days after the Survivor Series. It reads like you've 100% bought into Vince's narrative and WWE's revisionist spin on this. Bret had been loyal to the company for over a decade at this point, viewed Vince as a second father and was basically forced into going to WCW. The locker room was pissed at Vince and Shawn, talent quit and others wanted to follow before getting talked out of it or refused to be granted their release, such as Owen.

Anyway, the Screwjob was the best thing to happen to the WWF back then because of how it transformed/enhanced Vince's persona. On the other hand the Screwjob had a domino effect on the Hart side aswell that arguably lead to some of the terrible things that followed.

Bret was a really good technical wrestler but the industry is so much more than that. Shawn had the technical skill the charisma and the insane adaptability to be the best.

The fact that he came back from a near career ending injury in 2002 hadn't been in the ring for years and then proceeded to have a better run in the twilight of his career than in his early days is insane.

Bret had an air of realism and believably that Shawn didn't IMO. Though I would give Shawn being more versatile I don't know if I'd put his mic work above Bret's though, neither were great but again Bret felt more authentic.


On the back injury, it's almost like Shawn exaggerated the severity of his back injury and it just so happened to get better for WWE, ignoring the match he had in 2000 at his promotion. His main issue aside from his ego and attitude was drugs. When Austin was near retirement and The Rock (who strongly disliked Shawn because of his disprespecting his grandmother years prior and the main reason they didn't work together) was on his way to Hollywood and were no longer front and center Shawn's back was magically no longer an issue.



That was not the plan. In the original plan, Bret wasn't going to show up in WCW for another month after that match, more than enough time for Bret to drop the title to literally anyone other than Shawn on the way out the door, or even to drop the belt to Shawn but not in Montreal.

Bret only showed up in WCW the next night because of the Screwjob.
Are you thinking of Rick Rude? Bret still didn't show up for another month, it wasn't until December 15th that Bret showed up on WCW TV because he had a 30 day non-compete clause as part of his release.

Bischoff wasn't about to do that again, Vince already sued them twice at that point over WCW using their IP and was the eventual reason why the WWF got WCW for pennies on the dollar. They wouldn't have had the belt to put on TV because they wouldn't have had it. Besides WCW dropped the ball with Bret just as Vince told Bret they would. They had a ready made angle with having the "WWF real champion" and what did they do? Threw in him as "special enforcer" or whatever for the shit show that was Sting/Hogan at Starcade.
 
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krae_man

Master of Balan Wonderworld
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,595
Don't forget his exciting gems the inverted atomic drop, the figure four around the ringpost, and running chestfirst into the turnbuckle!

Bret did that ring post move for like 6 months. Criticizing Bret for having signature moves he used in every match when literally everybody else did the same thing sure is something else.

Also LOL @ Bret only having three memorable matches. You're bad at trolling.
 

DrDarkStryfe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,521
Pittsburgh, PA
Bret elevated more talent than HBK tried to squash. Making the other guy looking like a superstar is something that separates the best from the greats.

HBK is one of the greats but Hart is one of the best.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,127
Chile
Bischoff wasn't about to do that again, Vince already sued them twice at that point over WCW using their IP and was the eventual reason why the WWF got WCW for pennies on the dollar. They wouldn't have had the belt to put on TV because they wouldn't have had it. Besides WCW dropped the ball with Bret just as Vince told Bret they would. They had a ready made angle with having the "WWF real champion" and what did they do? Threw in him as "special enforcer" or whatever for the shit show that was Sting/Hogan at Starcade.

Even if they didn't use their IP, he could still have jumped ship as the Champion and that would've hurt the brand anyway. There's 0 reason to believe otherwise other than just believing Bret's word at the moment.
 

Auros01

Avenger
Nov 17, 2017
5,504
I respect Bret more and he's in my favorite match ever (vs Austin at WM13) but Shawn probably has more memorable matches and moments, overall. He doesn't seem to be a good dude, though.

Bret.
 

Semblance

Member
Oct 26, 2017
791
California
Only thing I gotta add is Shawn shitting on Montreal in the mid 2000s is one of the best heel promos I've ever seen. Absolutely nuclear heat, crowd was l o u d and he just kept pouring gasoline on the flames.
 

StarStorm

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,595
Easily Bret Hart.

HBK is the asshole. He's a great wrestler, but I didn't like him even as a kid.

Bret on the other hand is a class act. Even when he turned heel in 97. Bret is the cooler dude by far.

bret-hart-wink-bret-hart.gif
 

PHOENIXZERO

Member
Oct 29, 2017
12,071
Even if they didn't use their IP, he could still have jumped ship as the Champion and that would've hurt the brand anyway. There's 0 reason to believe otherwise other than just believing Bret's word at the moment.
He was screwed, everyone knew he didn't actually lose, they could've still done that angle but WCW dropped the ball. Given how much respect Bret has for the business (and had for Vince) and how doing something like that would affect "the boys" and family that worked there I can say with 100% confidence that Bret wouldn't have fucked over the WWF/E. Bret never wanted to go to WCW, took a lot less money to stay and still got effectively forced out and screwed over.

Shawn would've 100% done it though.