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Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere |OT| Journey Before Destination
- Thread starter ExMachina
- Start date
Man, that's good.
I gotta reread Warbreaker, I'm doing a Stormlight reread and I'd forgotten just how prominent stuff from it is, especially in Oathbringer.
In Bands of Mourning, there's been a great scene that Sanderson writes like he's writing a slapstick comedy skit. It's pretty funny & neat because in Cosmere so far there's nothing with this tone.
I definitely like the idea that, at least for parts (and not really for Shadows of Self), the Wax & Wayne series is Sanderson's attempt to write a pulpy buddy comedy adventure series. Makes it stand out as something very different in tone from the other Cosmere books., and especially makes it feel completely different than the original Mistborn series which was very serious.
It's when they get to New Seran and are checking into the hotel with the hotel manager and Wax is jumping around tearing the windows off while his companions are giving the manager lady a list of all possible things that might happen during his stay like explosions and floods and meanwhile Wayne is trying to trade for the manager's hat and Meelan is bursting out half naked talking about changing her bust size and the manager is about to faint from it all.
It's a silly scene written completely farcical and is great
It's a silly scene written completely farcical and is great
I definitely like the idea that, at least for parts (and not really for Shadows of Self), the Wax & Wayne series is Sanderson's attempt to write a pulpy buddy comedy adventure series. Makes it stand out as something very different in tone from the other Cosmere books., and especially makes it feel completely different than the original Mistborn series which was very serious.
I have not been able to find my copy of Warbreaker for a while, and then yesterday on a walk, my neighbor had a box of books for people to take, and lo and behold, there's a copy of Warbreaker. I'll inhale it and then put it one of our little free libraries around town. Very excited to revisit it after Stormlight!
It's a muuuuch slower start than I remembered, but I think there's still a lot to like.
Before I buy the White Sand graphic novels, is the idea that Sanderson is planning on writing these same 3 graphic novels worth of story as a proper novel at some point? I thought I saw someone mention it and I know there's a White Sands novella in the short story collection that I'll be getting to soon.
Wonder if I should skip the graphic novels and just wait for the proper novelization. Especially if they add much Cosmere lore so there's no rush to reading the graphic novels now.
Also out of curiosity, since Rhythm of War is done, Dawnshard novella is done, and next Stormlight isn't being written for 2 years until 2022. Has Sanderson mentioned in any of the fan events what the next book he's planning on writing in 2021 is? Hoping it'll be the 4th Wayne & Wax or at least something Cosmere.
Wonder if I should skip the graphic novels and just wait for the proper novelization. Especially if they add much Cosmere lore so there's no rush to reading the graphic novels now.
Also out of curiosity, since Rhythm of War is done, Dawnshard novella is done, and next Stormlight isn't being written for 2 years until 2022. Has Sanderson mentioned in any of the fan events what the next book he's planning on writing in 2021 is? Hoping it'll be the 4th Wayne & Wax or at least something Cosmere.
I don't think so, I think he is doing the graphic novels because he knows he won't have time (at least anytime soon) to write them and one of the characters in that book is in the Stormlight Archive.
here is the schedule from State of Sanderson 2019
- The Original audio novella: 2020
- Stormlight Four: Fall 2020
- Skyward Three: Summer(?) 2021
- Wax and Wayne Four: Fall(?) 2021
- Alcatraz 6: 2021–2022
- Dark One Graphic Novel: 2021–2022
- Skyward Four (final book): 2022
- Stormlight Five: Fall 2023
Ah, thanks for the info. Since there's some Cosmere involvement in White Sands, I'll blow through it in a night/weekend before starting Oathbringer.
That's cool about the 4th Wax & Wayne being planned for next year, though a bummer there's going to be another 2 year gap from that to the next Cosmere book in 2023. Hopefully I like the Skyward series so I can get excited about that for 2022.
Definitely interested in when he starts writing some new planet Cosmere novels. Hopefully after Stormlight five and before starting the next Mistborn series he writes some other stuff like Elantris & Warbreaker.
That's cool about the 4th Wax & Wayne being planned for next year, though a bummer there's going to be another 2 year gap from that to the next Cosmere book in 2023. Hopefully I like the Skyward series so I can get excited about that for 2022.
Definitely interested in when he starts writing some new planet Cosmere novels. Hopefully after Stormlight five and before starting the next Mistborn series he writes some other stuff like Elantris & Warbreaker.
The White Sand prose in AU is an excerpt from the unpublished novel that Brandon wrote in 2000. That novel was itself a rewrite of White Sand Prime, which he wrote as an undergrad in 1997. You can get a PDF of the full 2000 prose version from 17th Shard, I believe (it used to be sent out to newsletter subscribers).
The graphic novel is an adaptation (with some updates and changes) of the 2000 version. It's the only canonical version of White Sand, though most of the material is the same as the prose version.
Very helpful. Maybe I'll just read the full 2000 prose version.
No problem! I am almost finished reading the Cosmere for the first time and was just looking at Brandon's unpublished early books out of curiosity last week, so it's all still fresh.
If anyone else is curious, I wrote up a rough outline of 1997-2004 Sanderson in my phone as I was going. I'll spoiler tag it for space.
Unpublished Works Notes
Short version of early history (see FAQ link below for full version).
First 13 Brandon Sanderson books, in order:
https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/my-history-as-a-writer/
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243-hero-of-ages-qa-time-wasters-guide/#e6096
https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/unpublished-works/
https://www.brandonsanderson.com/warbreaker-prime-mythwalker-prologue/https://www.brandonsanderson.com/mistborn-deleted-scenes-explanation/
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/147/#e5132
Short version of early history (see FAQ link below for full version).
- Books 1-5. Early exploration of writing between 1997-1999. Brandon was doing his undergraduate. Practice books, with only one sent to publishers.
- Books 6-8. The "Golden Age" of 1999-2000. Brandon likes all three books. Elantris, obviously, was eventually published. He thinks all three were publishable.
- Books 9-12: after giving up on Mythwalker and still not being published, Brandon tries to write novels that are shorter and darker to please editors. 2000-2002. Mistborn Prime and TFE Prime are two of his self-described worst books. Aether is just okay, not good enough.
- The Way of Kings Prime: 2002-2003. Brandon throws caution to the wind and writes the fantasy he wants to write. He thinks this is the best of his unpublished books.
- Published Era: In 2003, Brandon gets the call about buying Elantris and TWOK. Instead of publishing the latter, which isn't ready yet, he decides to rewrite his least favorite books into Mistborn (Dec. 2003, via TWG post) to prove that he can finish a trilogy.
First 13 Brandon Sanderson books, in order:
- White Sand Prime - rewritten as White Sand (Prose), which was adapted and published as a graphic novel
- Star's End ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Lord Mastrell - sequel to White Sands Prime
- Knight Life ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Sixth Incarnation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Elantris - published!
- Dragonsteel Prime - Brandon's masters thesis. Available through BYU interlibrary loan. Elements like Dalinar, Bridge Four went to Roshar. Will be rewritten as a trilogy.
- White Sand (prose): Rewrite of White Sand. Full draft PDF available through newsletter signup. Excerpt published in AU.
- Mythwalker: Mostly adapted into Warbreaker (Vivenna and Siri). Other elements taken for Mistborn (hero fails, skaa class system) and TWOK. First novel that Brandon gave up on and didn't finish. All finished chapters are available with Peter annotations on Brandon's website.
- Aether of Night: full draft PDF available from 17th Shard. Planned to be rewritten as trilogy, which will be very different from the original.
- Mistborn Prime: prologue available online. Contained early Allomancy, but only Mistborns (no Mistings).
- Final Empire Prime: origin of Vin as a male character who overthrew an empire. Two chapters available online. Had early Feruchemy.
- Way of Kings Prime: available free as PDF from TWOK leatherbound Kickstarter. Signed by Tor as a two-book contract with Elantris, but Brandon pulled it because he felt it wasn't right. Instead, he wrote Mistborn. Self-described best of Brandon's unpublished books at that time.
https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/my-history-as-a-writer/
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243-hero-of-ages-qa-time-wasters-guide/#e6096
https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/unpublished-works/
https://www.brandonsanderson.com/warbreaker-prime-mythwalker-prologue/https://www.brandonsanderson.com/mistborn-deleted-scenes-explanation/
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/147/#e5132
Is this Dark One a cosmere thing too or just some unrelated series?
Also, I remember reading in the state of sanderson that he often had some trouble with schedules due to the big amount of conventions he'd go to, since it's 2020 I think that'll be less of a problem. Maybe he would have the time to get some of the stuff he had planned done slightly quicker due to this.
It's not Cosmere, but was planned to be in it at one point. There is a tv series planned though.
Dark One (franchise) - The Coppermind - 17th Shard
coppermind.net
Some of the interludes are pretty dull, yeah. A few of those are much cooler once you pick up on the Cosmere implications of what's going on, but others... yeah.
Yeah, some of them are actually my favorite, especially the
I can't remember which Stormlight book it is, but the interludes between Wit and the other worldhoppers are really cool. Especially the one between Wit and Sazed.
I think you mean the epigraphs there, the chapter-starters. The interludes are the short (generally) chapters that give different perspectives than the main cast. Eshonai had some, for instance. I do like a few of them quite a bit - Lift's was fun, ditto Szeth's. But others just sorta felt like speedbumps.
But yeah, the letters are very cool. Apparently we're getting more of them until at least book 5.
Ohh yeah.. Didn't know there was a difference lol. I liked the interludes as well.
The ones this time were pretty fun actually. I just didn't want to go away from where the main plot was for something else. Especially when I flip the page and see a 50+ minute chapter.
So I finished it... What a phenomenal ending, holy shit. I wasn't quite sure where it was going until right before a specific character grabbed hold of the power. Amazing trilogy, and the epilogue was great as well.
I just finished The Eleventh Metal which I liked too, I wish it was longer lol
I just finished Elantris, and I quite liked it!
I had thought that it would be less polished than the later books. To some extent, that is true. The ending sequence was too abbreviated, and the phrase 'raised his/her eyebrows' got on my nerves a bit. But I loved the world and characters, and the magic tied into the story well.
Just to summarize my Cosmere read up until now:
TWOK->WOR->The Emperor's Soul->Warbreaker->Edgedancer->Oathbringer->Mistborn Era 1(including Eleventh Metal)>Shadows for Silence->Elantris
To finish, I will read:
Hope of Elantris->Alloy of Law->Allomancer Jak->Sixth of the Dusk->the other two Wax and Wayne books->Mistborn Secret History
I know the usual recommendation is Mistborn first, but this reading order worked very well as someone who primarily came in to read the Stormlight Archive. TWOK was certainly a very effective hook for the Cosmere as a whole.
I had thought that it would be less polished than the later books. To some extent, that is true. The ending sequence was too abbreviated, and the phrase 'raised his/her eyebrows' got on my nerves a bit. But I loved the world and characters, and the magic tied into the story well.
Just to summarize my Cosmere read up until now:
TWOK->WOR->The Emperor's Soul->Warbreaker->Edgedancer->Oathbringer->Mistborn Era 1(including Eleventh Metal)>Shadows for Silence->Elantris
To finish, I will read:
Hope of Elantris->Alloy of Law->Allomancer Jak->Sixth of the Dusk->the other two Wax and Wayne books->Mistborn Secret History
I know the usual recommendation is Mistborn first, but this reading order worked very well as someone who primarily came in to read the Stormlight Archive. TWOK was certainly a very effective hook for the Cosmere as a whole.
Less than five hours left on Words of Radiance
Emotional heights have almost his Way of Kings level a few times so far. Have a feeling it will happen a few more times in the final ~150 or so pages I have left.
Either tonight or tomorrow I shall finish.
Emotional heights have almost his Way of Kings level a few times so far. Have a feeling it will happen a few more times in the final ~150 or so pages I have left.
Either tonight or tomorrow I shall finish.
Done with the Warbreaker reread. Overall, a bit sloppier than I remember it being. Very abrupt ending, very slow start. Lots of good stuff in the middle, though. Now, for the reason I read it in the first place...
You can feel the changes that got made pretty strongly, going straight from Oathbringer to Warbreaker. Nightblood is a lot more comedic than he is for most of Warbreaker, Vahel (Vasher) and Azure (Vivenna, I think) speak differently - lots of obvious color metaphors that weren't really present to the same extent in the Warbreaker dialogue. The latter's explainable by the language gap, though.
I wonder how the hell they became worldhoppers? Unlike Surgebinding, nothing in BioChroma seems to lend itself to getting into the Cognitive Realm. Must have gotten picked up by some others and taught a few tricks.
Also curious about how much time's passed since the end of Warbreaker. Vasher is actually probably just immortal on Roshar, assuming he can pull Stormlight into himself as Breaths. Vivenna though hasn't aged much or at all, assuming I'm right about her identity. So I'm left wondering. Part of the fun of Worldbreaker is that the magic system is actually really poorly understood in-universe aside from a handful of people like Vasher. But even he says that he knows only a fraction of what might be possible. So maybe Vivenna's Returned heritage means that she can directly prolong her life in the same way a full Returned can, as long as she has Investiture.
God, I'm excited for Stormlight book 4. I really really really wanna see what happens with Adolin, mostly with his apparently back-from-the-dead Spren but also he got that message from Azure, and Vasher and Nightblood are in the same part of the planet again. I'm hyped.
Anyway, RIP Blushweaver and Lightsong. Two of the real ones. Sorta.
I wonder how the hell they became worldhoppers? Unlike Surgebinding, nothing in BioChroma seems to lend itself to getting into the Cognitive Realm. Must have gotten picked up by some others and taught a few tricks.
Also curious about how much time's passed since the end of Warbreaker. Vasher is actually probably just immortal on Roshar, assuming he can pull Stormlight into himself as Breaths. Vivenna though hasn't aged much or at all, assuming I'm right about her identity. So I'm left wondering. Part of the fun of Worldbreaker is that the magic system is actually really poorly understood in-universe aside from a handful of people like Vasher. But even he says that he knows only a fraction of what might be possible. So maybe Vivenna's Returned heritage means that she can directly prolong her life in the same way a full Returned can, as long as she has Investiture.
God, I'm excited for Stormlight book 4. I really really really wanna see what happens with Adolin, mostly with his apparently back-from-the-dead Spren but also he got that message from Azure, and Vasher and Nightblood are in the same part of the planet again. I'm hyped.
Anyway, RIP Blushweaver and Lightsong. Two of the real ones. Sorta.
Whats crazier is stormblades is what inspired Vasher and the scholars to make nightblood. There is one of the wells where Rock is from so they must have found one on Nalthis
Oh man, Nightblood is an artificial Spren?
...
That makes a lot of sense, actually. There's a bit in Warbreaker where Vasher talks about how they hadn't expected Nightblood to be fully sentient. If they were working off of a Shardblade, though, they'd have to have some kind of mind involved, because at the end of the day it's a Spren - they were aping a construct they probably didn't realize was alive, sorta. Very cool stuff.
And I'd forgotten that regular people can use the Wells. Been a minute since I read Secret History. Could be they just found Endowment's perpendicularity, though I'm skeptical that she'd just... let them wander through it, given her letter to Hoid. And the fact that the perpendicularities are kind of a big deal.
Oh, and Hoid! I'd totally forgotten he was in Warbreaker. Very very very very subdued compared to his Stormlight antics, though he still does the "weird visual medium for storytelling" thing.
...
That makes a lot of sense, actually. There's a bit in Warbreaker where Vasher talks about how they hadn't expected Nightblood to be fully sentient. If they were working off of a Shardblade, though, they'd have to have some kind of mind involved, because at the end of the day it's a Spren - they were aping a construct they probably didn't realize was alive, sorta. Very cool stuff.
And I'd forgotten that regular people can use the Wells. Been a minute since I read Secret History. Could be they just found Endowment's perpendicularity, though I'm skeptical that she'd just... let them wander through it, given her letter to Hoid. And the fact that the perpendicularities are kind of a big deal.
Oh, and Hoid! I'd totally forgotten he was in Warbreaker. Very very very very subdued compared to his Stormlight antics, though he still does the "weird visual medium for storytelling" thing.
Dont know if Nightblood is a spren, more so a blade made via invesititure, using a lot of breaths. But yeah, its only stuff Brandon has said outside of the books so hopefully we get something concrete in the books.
Sure, but I mean - they keep making this point over and over in Stormlight that Sharblades and Shardplate are qualitatively different from any kind of regular Fabrial, right? And it turns out the reason for that is that they're comprised of a higher Spren. So they might have just been thinking "okay we shove a lot of Investiture in here and maybe something neat happens" but the thing they were basing their research off of was alive at one point.
And it'd explain why Nightblood is the way it is. Spren have a similar kind of childlike fascination and uncertainty because of their alien perspective.
And it'd explain why Nightblood is the way it is. Spren have a similar kind of childlike fascination and uncertainty because of their alien perspective.
Well Brandon you are 2/2 getting me to cry in these Stormlight books.
Have about a half hour left but needed a small break before I press on to the finish.
Holy moly this delivered even if I had a pretty big thing spoiled for me accidentally on one of his livestreams a few weeks ago.
May take a small Sanderson break before I resume my Cosmere read through. Have plenty of time for what I have left before Rhythm of War comes out.
Have about a half hour left but needed a small break before I press on to the finish.
Holy moly this delivered even if I had a pretty big thing spoiled for me accidentally on one of his livestreams a few weeks ago.
May take a small Sanderson break before I resume my Cosmere read through. Have plenty of time for what I have left before Rhythm of War comes out.
What Nightblood really is and how it was made, is one of the most fascinating mysteries for me currently. I used to think it was an actual Spren forced into a blade who lacked Connection to a being of the physical realm. OR rather perhaps a Spren who had a Connection forced on it, but to the blade through Awakening, rather than another sentient being through their own Nahel bond. The Spren also gain a considerable amount back through the Nahel bond, in terms of their ability to retain personality and sentience in the Physical Realm, lacking that could explain the mental state of Nightblood.
Now, I'm not so sure. The truth is Awakening could easily be the sole system involved in creating Nightblood. But we also know that Nightblood is far more powerful than the average shardblade, destroying whatever it is used against on all three realms.... implying to me the involvement of splinters of multiple Shards.
But honestly, who knows haha.
Now, I'm not so sure. The truth is Awakening could easily be the sole system involved in creating Nightblood. But we also know that Nightblood is far more powerful than the average shardblade, destroying whatever it is used against on all three realms.... implying to me the involvement of splinters of multiple Shards.
But honestly, who knows haha.
From what I remember, it was said that when there is enough Investiture in one place, it tends to get self aware, and they used a lot of Breath to make Nightblood. It is definitely some kind of artificial spren, but with way more Investiture in it. And it possibly absorbed Shashara's Breath soon after it was made, we don't know. I hope at some point we will get a flashback to that moment.
So, to be more clear, when I say "used to think" followed by "now I'm not so sure", I don't mean that I still hold on to that interpretation as a possibility. I'm saying "I used to have a theory that I thought worked really well and now I don't really". Brandon literally called Nightblood a robot spren, so it's clear at this point that Nightblood isn't an actual spren. We are on the same page on that one.
I do still like the idea of Nightblood lacking the Connection to another sentient being that spren get through the Nahel bond, and that playing in to it's mental state, artificially created or not. I would presume, since it's described as a robot spren, that Nightblood is essentially a cognitive entity like natural spren (which need the bond to be able to think in the physical realm).
I will say though that if the truth really is just "we crammed a ton of breath into this sword and that's how you awaken a Type IV entitiy"... I'm gonna be a little disappointed lol. Especially since the main thing we know about it's creation is that it used 1000 Breaths, which, to me, seems kinda low for apparent power level of Nightblood. Do a thousand breaths really outclass the investiture of a bonded Spren that much? Or maybe the story Vasher is telling about it's creation is a fib in that regard. Maybe it takes the breath of a Returned (the single powerful breath they return with that places them at the Fifth Heightening).
Which... now that I think about it might explain why Nightblood consumes Investiture....
I do still like the idea of Nightblood lacking the Connection to another sentient being that spren get through the Nahel bond, and that playing in to it's mental state, artificially created or not. I would presume, since it's described as a robot spren, that Nightblood is essentially a cognitive entity like natural spren (which need the bond to be able to think in the physical realm).
I will say though that if the truth really is just "we crammed a ton of breath into this sword and that's how you awaken a Type IV entitiy"... I'm gonna be a little disappointed lol. Especially since the main thing we know about it's creation is that it used 1000 Breaths, which, to me, seems kinda low for apparent power level of Nightblood. Do a thousand breaths really outclass the investiture of a bonded Spren that much? Or maybe the story Vasher is telling about it's creation is a fib in that regard. Maybe it takes the breath of a Returned (the single powerful breath they return with that places them at the Fifth Heightening).
Which... now that I think about it might explain why Nightblood consumes Investiture....
Well, we do know one other thing. We know that the Command used to Awaken the sword was "Destroy Evil." But the way Commands work is, abstract Commands have a heavy mental component. You need to properly visualize what you want it to do or else you just shove a bunch of Breaths in and nothing happens. I hadn't heard the robot spren thing before, but it does sort of confirm my perception - because they were basically trying to make a Shardblade, the mental picture they used would have been of a Spren, even if they didn't realize it. So they took a ton of power, a mental image of a thing that they shouldn't have been able to picture, and basically brute-forced their way into it.
As for why it sucks up Investiture, that could pretty easily just be down to it being kinda... rule-breaking. It's a work of BioChroma but it's meant to mimic a Nahel Bond, which is itself not really an intended form of Surgebinding. Could just be that it broke some fundamental rules and that's why it sucks up Investiture like it does - trying to pull in more power to fill the hole in... well, reality, really. Which would raise some really interesting questions about the sheathe, now that I think about it. Though honestly there's already a lot of those anyway - how does it seal the sword, why doesn't Nightblood vaporize it, etc.
But maybe it's simpler than that. A Returned requires investiture just to stay alive. Nightblood works more like a Surgebinder that doesn't know how to stop doing their thing. Constantly expelling power when unsheathed, because it's constantly destroying everything it's coming in contact with. We see Vasher use Nightblood to vaporize holes in inanimate objects, so maybe it does the same to air molecules? That'd explain the constant drain.
As for why it sucks up Investiture, that could pretty easily just be down to it being kinda... rule-breaking. It's a work of BioChroma but it's meant to mimic a Nahel Bond, which is itself not really an intended form of Surgebinding. Could just be that it broke some fundamental rules and that's why it sucks up Investiture like it does - trying to pull in more power to fill the hole in... well, reality, really. Which would raise some really interesting questions about the sheathe, now that I think about it. Though honestly there's already a lot of those anyway - how does it seal the sword, why doesn't Nightblood vaporize it, etc.
But maybe it's simpler than that. A Returned requires investiture just to stay alive. Nightblood works more like a Surgebinder that doesn't know how to stop doing their thing. Constantly expelling power when unsheathed, because it's constantly destroying everything it's coming in contact with. We see Vasher use Nightblood to vaporize holes in inanimate objects, so maybe it does the same to air molecules? That'd explain the constant drain.
I love his videos. I watched the one about where he got inspiration for Mistborn and it really sung true to me as someone trying to become a published writer.
It is confirmed that the sheath is made of aluminium which negates magic in Cosmere, I don't think there is more to it.
Ah, okay.
Though that does sorta raise the question of why, given that allomancy is only a thing on one world, but it's fine.
Though that does sorta raise the question of why, given that allomancy is only a thing on one world, but it's fine.
He has definitely hinted that the significance of some of the metals crosses the Cosmere. After recently reading Shadows for Silence, I saw this WoB:
Hmmmm, interesting. It'd have to be a remnant of Adonalsium, then, since they've got the only influence across that many worlds.