Well I'm hoping there's some explanation for the white hair then. 😂
edit: OR...
So technically this WASNT the final and we've all been speculating over an as-of-yet unfinished rendition of the character. L. O. L. Hopefully he fixed the hair, and especially the skin color.
Newton's 3rd law. If the 170 lbs person exerts a 20 Newton force (or any other number) on the coin, then there will also be a 20 Newton force exerted on the person, regardless of the coin's weight.
Of course, some physics from the real world has to be broken; otherwise, it wouldn't be a magic system. But I recommend looking through the threads I linked if you are curious—when you try to reconcile all of the magic stuff that happens in Mistborn, things get complicated fast.
Newton's 3rd law. If the 170 lbs person exerts a 20 Newton force (or any other number) on the coin, then there will also be a 20 Newton force exerted on the person, regardless of the coin's weight.
Of course, some physics from the real world has to be broken; otherwise, it wouldn't be a magic system. But I recommend looking through the threads I linked if you are curious—when you try to reconcile all of the magic stuff that happens in Mistborn, things get complicated fast.
Yea but would 20 newtons move 170 lbs in any significant way compared to the coin? It still has to overcome inertia and a big boi like Kelsier would have a lot more than a tiny coin.
Yea but would 20 newtons move 170 lbs in any significant way compared to the coin? It still has to overcome inertia and a big boi like Kelsier would have a lot more than a tiny coin.
Yes, very true! I'll replace 20 N with X to be more clear. What I mean is that if Kelsier is Pushing with any amount of force X on the coin, then the coin is should exert that same amount of force X on him, regardless of how big the force is.
i.e. if I am Pushing on a coin that is in mid-air with X Newtons of force, then it is also exerting a X N force on me. And if I am Pushing on a coin that is against a wall/on the ground with X N, then it is also exerting a X N force on me.
But in the book, there is apparently no force pushing back on Kelsier until the coin collides with a surface (a wall or the ground), and then he is pushed back suddenly and violently. That shouldn't be true if the physics are following the third law. The reaction force on Kelsier should not depend on the mass of the coin or the normal force exerted on the coin by the surface. It should only depend on how much force X Kelsier is Pushing with.
Yes, very true! I'll replace 20 N with X to be more clear. What I mean is that if Kelsier is Pushing with any amount of force X on the coin, then the coin is should exert that same amount of force X on him, regardless of how big the force is.
i.e. if I am Pushing on a coin that is in mid-air with X Newtons of force, then it is also exerting a X N force on me. And if I am Pushing on a coin that is against a wall/on the ground with X N, then it is also exerting a X N force on me.
But in the book, there is apparently no force pushing back on Kelsier until the coin collides with a surface (a wall or the ground), and then he is pushed back suddenly and violently. That shouldn't be true if the physics are following the third law. The reaction force on Kelsier should not depend on the mass of the coin or the normal force exerted on the coin by the surface. It should only depend on how much force X Kelsier is Pushing with.
Assuming all of Newton's laws hold, it would be just like normal: plug the force into F=ma and solve. The force would be the same for both objects, but the object with the smaller mass would be accelerated more.
Assuming all of Newton's laws hold, it would be just like normal: plug the force into F=ma and solve. The force would be the same for both objects, but the object with the smaller mass would be accelerated more.
So... then... I'm not really seeing how it's not following the law outside of a very, very, technical sense.
The uses of Allowmancy, with regards to pulling and pushing take into account the Mass and stability/support (for lack of a better term) of the objects involved. Kelsier, dropping a coin and pushing it becomes a battle of Force where Kelsier's greater Mass causes the coin to accelerate to the ground faster than he does, until it hits the ground, at which point he's pushed up as the force applied to the coin is transferred to the ground which has greater mass than he does. The same for pushing a coin horizontally, where Kelsier's Mass and the stability afforded by his stance results in the coin moving in a direction while his body, for all intents and purposes, stays in the same place until the moment the coin hits an object that has greater mass. So I'm not really seeing how Allowmancy breaks the 3rd Law any more than a person pushing a swing with their hand.
So... then... I'm not really seeing how it's not following the law outside of a very, very, technical sense.
The uses of Allowmancy, with regards to pulling and pushing take into account the Mass and stability/support (for lack of a better term) of the objects involved. Kelsier, dropping a coin and pushing it becomes a battle of Force where Kelsier's greater Mass causes the coin to accelerate to the ground faster than he does, until it hits the ground, at which point he's pushed up as the force applied to the coin is transferred to the ground which has greater mass than he does. The same for pushing a coin horizontally, where Kelsier's Mass and the stability afforded by his stance results in the coin moving in a direction while his body, for all intents and purposes, stays in the same place until the moment the coin hits an object that has greater mass. So I'm not really seeing how Allowmancy breaks the 3rd Law any more than a person pushing a swing with their hand.
The large mass of the ground/wall doesn't mean that the force applied by Kelsier or the reaction force on him increases. It just means that the combined coin + ground/wall system accelerates more slowly, because that new system is more massive than the old coin system. The magnitude of the force itself should remain the same, unless Kelsier consciously uses his Allomancy magic to increase the force that he applies. Since Kelsier's mass remains constant, his acceleration remains constant under a constant force.
However, there are many more sophisticated theories in the two Seventeenth Shard threads that I linked on the last page. Some of those do involve the masses of the objects, and I definitely recommend looking at them! They are much more interesting and thoughtful than I am. There are interesting simulations of models that involve e^-x and e^-v loss terms and transfer of normal forces that look like this:
The large mass of the ground/wall doesn't mean that the force applied by Kelsier or the reaction force on him increases. It just means that the combined coin + ground/wall system accelerates more slowly, because that new system is more massive than the old coin system. The magnitude of the force itself should remain the same, unless Kelsier consciously uses his Allomancy magic to increase the force that he applies. Since Kelsier's mass remains constant, his acceleration remains constant under a constant force.
However, there are many more sophisticated theories in the two Seventeenth Shard threads that I linked on the last page. Some of those do involve the masses of the objects, and I definitely recommend looking at them! They are much more interesting and thoughtful than I am. There are interesting simulations of models that involve e^-x and e^-v loss terms and transfer of normal forces that look like this:
I wasn't suggesting that the amount of Force increases because of the Mass of the object but I wasn't very specific in that regard, so that's on me. I was talking about the instances of the Source of the Push (Kelsier) "not moving" and then suddenly being pushed back. Which would mean the Force was always technically enough to push back on the Source but because of the difference in Mass it means the coin would simply accelerate much faster.
To go back to my reference to a swing the amount of force needed to put an empty swing in motion is considerably less than one with someone sitting in it, right? And if you push an empty swing with a constant Force into a person standing in front of it, the swing will move until it's pressed against the person. If you push that empty swing until it's pressed against a person, then you increase the Force when you feel the resistance, whether or not your acceleration increases depends on the mass of the person you're pressing the swing into. However if you push the empty swing into a person with a constant Force that was always enough to move you, you will still stay (relatively) still and the swing will accelerate into the person much faster and only then will you reasonably be effected by force.
Kelsier is said to be a skilled Allowmancer. Vin, at first, is not. Kelsier has the experience to know how much Force needs to be applied for his intended effect. While Sanderson doesn't always bother with the little touches, in the very first demonstration of pushing, Sanderson describes one of Kelsier's pushes (specifically one to adjust his angle of ascent once already in motion) as a "careful nudge." A page or so later, Kelsier uses a combination of pushing and pulling at the same time to arrest his fall then project him into the air. As the story moves on, Sanderson rarely goes into as much detail when describing the feats, but by that point the mechanics are already been detailed and so skill and precision are supposed to be implied.
Pick up a ball and push against it as hard as you can, open handed, you throw the ball. The force acting on you is the same as is acting on the ball, but the mass of your body so outweighs the ball, it develops little to no acceleration.
Place the ball against a wall and push as hard as you can, you push yourself away from the wall. Same amount of force applied as before, both to you and to the ball, but this time the force isn't JUST being applied to the ball. Its being applied to the ball directly, but the ball itself is pushing against the wall in turn. In effect the balance of inertia shifts to the wall through the ball.
Trying to work things out with complex physics can be fun, but sometimes the simple illustrations are the easiest.
Yeah having just read the first two Mistborn books for the first time, I was able to grasp its simplicity fairly easily. You're thinking just a bit to much about a magic system lol
I wasn't suggesting that the amount of Force increases because of the Mass of the object but I wasn't very specific in that regard, so that's on me. I was talking about the instances of the Source of the Push (Kelsier) "not moving" and then suddenly being pushed back. Which would mean the Force was always technically enough to push back on the Source but because of the difference in Mass it means the coin would simply accelerate much faster.
To go back to my reference to a swing the amount of force needed to put an empty swing in motion is considerably less than one with someone sitting in it, right? And if you push an empty swing with a constant Force into a person standing in front of it, the swing will move until it's pressed against the person. If you push that empty swing until it's pressed against a person, then you increase the Force when you feel the resistance, whether or not your acceleration increases depends on the mass of the person you're pressing the swing into. However if you push the empty swing into a person with a constant Force that was always enough to move you, you will still stay (relatively) still and the swing will accelerate into the person much faster and only then will you reasonably be effected by force.
Kelsier is said to be a skilled Allowmancer. Vin, at first, is not. Kelsier has the experience to know how much Force needs to be applied for his intended effect. While Sanderson doesn't always bother with the little touches, in the very first demonstration of pushing, Sanderson describes one of Kelsier's pushes (specifically one to adjust his angle of ascent once already in motion) as a "careful nudge." A page or so later, Kelsier uses a combination of pushing and pulling at the same time to arrest his fall then project him into the air. As the story moves on, Sanderson rarely goes into as much detail when describing the feats, but by that point the mechanics are already been detailed and so skill and precision are supposed to be implied.
I agree that's how it should work in my head, but there are certain important passages that play fast and loose with that notion.
Vin reaches the proper thread and pushed slightly. The coin flipped out of Kelsier's fingers, traveling directly away from Vin. She continued to focus on it, Pushing the coin through the air until it snapped against the wall of a nearby house.
Vin was thrown violently backward in a sudden, jerking motion. Kelsier caught her and kept her from falling to the ground.
Vin stumbled and righted herself. Across the street, the coin—now released from her control—plinked to the ground.
"What happened?" Kelsier asked her.
She shook her head. "I don't know. I Pushed on the coin, and it flew away. But when it hit the wall, I was pushed away."
"Why?"
Vin crowned thoughtfully. "I guess... I guess the coin couldn't go anywhere, so I had to be the one that moved."
Kelsier nodded approvingly. "Consequences, Vin. You use your own weight when you Steelpush. If you're a lot heavier than your anchor, it will fly away from you like that coin did. However, if the object is heavier than you are—or if it runs into something that is—you'll be Pushed away.
Like you just established in your post, the rule that I put in Italics (anchoring) shouldn't matter, unless the normal force on the coin by the wall is somehow being transferred to the Allomancer. This is the part of the magic that is questionable with respect to Newton's 3rd Law.
Neither should the next paragraph's rule about relative weights that I put in bold—both the coin and the Allomancer should be Pushed back at all times, just with different accelerations based on their mass. When Kelsier and Vin get into a Pushing duel at the beginning of Part Two, the coin hovers exactly between them, implying that both exert the same Pushing force. Vin breaks first—because she braces herself on a tree instead of a wall imo, but Kelsier tells her that it's because she weighs less than him. ("I would recommend that you avoid Push-matches with people who weigh more than you.")
The only thing that should matter in the strictest sense is how hard the Allomancer is Pushing, but that's only sort of loosely the case textually.
EDITED to elaborate a bit more.
I'm not that turned off by it, per se. Like the poster above me says, it is magic. But I definitely spent far too long thinking about it when I should have been reading. 😅
I guess our posts went up at the same time. I will tag you in here because what I replied to Jest addresses this. I agree that this is how I imagine the magic should work, but it seems like a different rule governs to me.
Yes, very true! I'll replace 20 N with X to be more clear. What I mean is that if Kelsier is Pushing with any amount of force X on the coin, then the coin is should exert that same amount of force X on him, regardless of how big the force is.
i.e. if I am Pushing on a coin that is in mid-air with X Newtons of force, then it is also exerting a X N force on me. And if I am Pushing on a coin that is against a wall/on the ground with X N, then it is also exerting a X N force on me.
But in the book, there is apparently no force pushing back on Kelsier until the coin collides with a surface (a wall or the ground), and then he is pushed back suddenly and violently. That shouldn't be true if the physics are following the third law. The reaction force on Kelsier should not depend on the mass of the coin or the normal force exerted on the coin by the surface. It should only depend on how much force X Kelsier is Pushing with.
Are you making an assumption that he is pushing his hardest at all times?
Is he not guiding the coin toward an immovable object, and then throwing all his allomancy on it so that he is launched in his intended direction?
When he uses different metal objects like lamp posts and such, it is the same principle, he is only applying force when in a position that will launch him in his intended direction.
But anyway, we aren't arguing that Kelsier isn't receiving the same force that he pushes with. He isn't always pushing with enough force to overcome his own inertia. Allomancy is akin to a muscle and you can adjust your effort level, it's not always a sprint.
I agree that's how it should work in my head, but there are certain important passages that play fast and loose with that notion.
Vin reaches the proper thread and pushed slightly. The coin flipped out of Kelsier's fingers, traveling directly away from Vin. She continued to focus on it, Pushing the coin through the air until it snapped against the wall of a nearby house.
Vin was thrown violently backward in a sudden, jerking motion. Kelsier caught her and kept her from falling to the ground.
Vin stumbled and righted herself. Across the street, the coin—now released from her control—plinked to the ground.
"What happened?" Kelsier asked her.
She shook her head. "I don't know. I Pushed on the coin, and it flew away. But when it hit the wall, I was pushed away."
"Why?"
Vin crowned thoughtfully. "I guess... I guess the coin couldn't go anywhere, so I had to be the one that moved."
Kelsier nodded approvingly. "Consequences, Vin. You use your own weight when you Steelpush. If you're a lot heavier than your anchor, it will fly away from you like that coin did. However, if the object is heavier than you are—or if it runs into something that is—you'll be Pushed away.
Like you just established in your post, the rule that I put in Italics (anchoring) shouldn't matter, unless the normal force on the coin is somehow being transferred to the Allomancer. This is the part of the magic that is questionable with respect to Newton's 3rd Law.
Neither should the next paragraph's rule about relative weights that I put in bold—both the coin and the Allomancer should be Pushed back at all times, just with different accelerations based on their mass. When Kelsier and Vin get into a Pushing duel at the beginning of Part Two, the coin hovers exactly between them, implying that both exert the same Pushing force. Vin breaks first—because she braces herself on a tree instead of a wall imo, but Kelsier tells her that it's because she weighs less than him. ("I would recommend that you avoid Push-matches with people who weigh more than you.")
The only thing that should matter in the strictest sense is how hard the Allomancer is Pushing, but that's only sort of loosely the case textually.
EDITED to elaborate a bit more.
I'm not that turned off by it, per se. Like the poster above me says, it is magic. But I definitely spent far too long thinking about it when I should have been reading. 😅
EDIT 2:
I guess our posts went up at the same time. I will tag you in here because what I replied to Jest addresses this. I agree that this is how I imagine the magic should work, but it seems like a different rule governs to me.
None of what you're quoting breaks the rule, except in the technical sense, and only then because Sanderson didn't take the time to describe every specific detail. The coin battle is an example of Kelsier matching the amount of force Vin is using and ramping up specifically to demonstrate why it's a bad idea to push against someone with more Mass because even if Vin uses more Force than her opponent on the coin, she has to overcome the difference in Mass to move them.
If you remove Allowmancy from the equation and you have two people physically pushing each other with the exact same amount of force but one is 100lbs heavier, the lighter person will be the one that accelerates faster. If you do the same with the lighter person bracing against a wall, in all likelihood the person 100lbs lighter doesn't accelerate but instead is squeezed between the two objects of heavier mass.
The rules, as described by Kelsier are stated the way they are because it's the colloquial way the character understands it. He's not a physicist nor was his teacher. Nor is Vin. It's not, as far as I can tell, breaking any of Newton's laws, it's just not described to such an extent as to satisfy the formulas and of course it wouldn't because that's not how these characters go about analyzing their Allowmancy.
None of what you're quoting breaks the rule, except in the technical sense, and only then because Sanderson didn't take the time to describe every specific detail. The coin battle is an example of Kelsier matching the amount of force Vin is using and ramping up specifically to demonstrate why it's a bad idea to push against someone with more Mass because even if Vin uses more Force than her opponent on the coin, she has to overcome the difference in Mass to move them.
If you remove Allowmancy from the equation and you have two people physically pushing each other with the exact same amount of force but one is 100lbs heavier, the lighter person will be the one that accelerates faster. If you do the same with the lighter person bracing against a wall, in all likelihood the person 100lbs lighter doesn't accelerate but instead is squeezed between the two objects of heavier mass.
The rules, as described by Kelsier are stated the way they are because it's the colloquial way the character understands it. He's not a physicist nor was his teacher. Nor is Vin. It's not, as far as I can tell, breaking any of Newton's laws, it's just not described to such an extent as to satisfy the formulas and of course it wouldn't because that's not how these characters go about analyzing their Allowmancy.
I think that, like Vin and Kelsier, we've reached an impasse. I definitely want to believe you, because as I said, I think that what you are describing is the most elegant version of the magic. So I am going to take off my arguing hat and go read a book. I don't want to burn up all of my steel after all. :)
I think that, like Vin and Kelsier, we've reached an impasse. I definitely want to believe you, because as I said, I think that what you are describing is the most elegant version of the magic. So I am going to take off my arguing hat and go read a book. I don't want to burn up all of my steel after all. :)
In his live stream yesterday, Brandon mentioned that he would like to release White Sand, Aether of Night, and Dragonsteel as Sanderson Curiosities after WoK Prime. They would probably come out with each Stormlight Kickstarter.
The next two in quality would be Mistborn Prime and Final Empire Prime.
Well, I finished my re-read of Words of Radiance. It was already my favourite Cosmere novel, and it remains so. I didn't like it any more or less the second time through however, unlike Way of Kings (which I liked more the second time).
Also read Edgedancer again, and I'm still a bit indifferent to it. It's not bad, but of Brandon's three Cosmere novellas, it is by far my least favourite. Hoping Dawnshard is more to my liking.
I truly hope I discover something in Oathbringer during the re-read which makes me love it. It's certainly possible.
Well, I finished my re-read of Words of Radiance. It was already my favourite Cosmere novel, and it remains so. I didn't like it any more or less the second time through however, unlike Way of Kings (which I liked more the second time).
Also read Edgedancer again, and I'm still a bit indifferent to it. It's not bad, but of Brandon's three Cosmere novellas, it is by far my least favourite. Hoping Dawnshard is more to my liking.
I truly hope I discover something in Oathbringer during the re-read which makes me love it. It's certainly possible.
Started reading Bands of Mourning. Every time I pick up a new Sanderson book coming from reading something else, it always strikes me just how good his writing is. Whereas certain authors excel at descriptive prose, I feel like Sanderson's strength is his dialogue, the exchanges which are just so enjoyable, clever and constantly entertaining.
AftervI catch up in Cosmere, I think I'll read his non-Cosmere books because at this point I just enjoy his writing style so much. Very few other authors have me reading with a smile on my face.
Started reading Bands of Mourning. Every time I pick up a new Sanderson book coming from reading something else, it always strikes me just how good his writing is. Whereas certain authors excel at descriptive prose, I feel like Sanderson's strength is his dialogue, the exchanges which are just so enjoyable, clever and constantly entertaining.
AftervI catch up in Cosmere, I think I'll read his non-Cosmere books because at this point I just enjoy his writing style so much. Very few other authors have me reading with a smile on my face.
The best thing about Sanderson is the flow that he achieves. Everything is being told in such a seamless and entertaining way that when the sanderlanche comes at the end, the resolution of the story is so rewarding and satisfying to the reader.
This may be a controversial statement, but I really do not care about prose.
I never walk away from a book going "ohh this prose is so good" mainly because I am sure like 95% of the population that reads books I have no idea what "good or bad" prose is. Characters and story is what's most important to me.
I don't think his prose is bad at all, I can generally picture the surroundings and follow the action scenes (which is an accomplishment given how physics-defying the action in Cosmere can be). A lot of authors I read can't even achieve this level. Before Bands of Mourning I read Ben Yahtzee Croshaw's book Jam and it was really difficult to follow and just not a well written book.
With Sanderson, his dialogue exchanges are so fun and develop the characters so well they're a real stand out. It's hard for me to try to think of an author who writes snappy dialogue exchanges better than Sanderson.
This may be a controversial statement, but I really do not care about prose.
I never walk away from a book going "ohh this prose is so good" mainly because I am sure like 95% of the population that reads books I have no idea what "good or bad" prose is. Characters and story is what's most important to me.
I generally agree. But good writing can make every page a joy to read no matter what it's about. For me, I love GRRM's prose and that's why I find even the middling ASOAIF books to be great reads. The world just feels so alive with each page.
But I think authors like that are incredibly rare, especially in non-high brow literature. So I'm happy with authors like King, Gaiman, Sanderson who can tell good stories and they often excel at their own strengths.
I don't think his prose is bad at all, I can generally picture the surroundings and follow the action scenes (which is an accomplishment given how physics-defying the action in Cosmere can be). A lot of authors I read can't even achieve this level. Before Bands of Mourning I read Ben Yahtzee Croshaw's book Jam and it was really difficult to follow and just not a well written book.
With Sanderson, his dialogue exchanges are so fun and develop the characters so well they're a real stand out. It's hard for me to try to think of an author who writes snappy dialogue exchanges better than Sanderson.
I generally agree. But good writing can make every page a joy to read no matter what it's about. For me, I love GRRM's prose and that's why I find even the middling ASOAIF books to be great reads. The world just feels so alive with each page.
But I think authors like that are incredibly rare, especially in non-high brow literature. So I'm happy with authors like King, Gaiman, Sanderson who can tell good stories and they often excel at their own strengths.
I found some parts of Dance with Dragons and AFFC to be huge drags so not even martins brilliant writing kept me interested, only what was happening with the characters I cared about
I think qualifying prose as either "good" or "bad" really means nothing because of how subjective quality can be. I'd describe Sanderson's prose as very straight forward. He gives you enough of an idea of scenes but he doesn't go out of his way to wow you with any descriptions or analogies or anything like that. There's a lot of personality of the characters in the prose and that's pretty admirable in itself though
Sanderson's prose is fine. It's nothing special for me but it does what it needs to do. There isn't anything wrong with it but there isn't a lot of ornamentation on it, if that makes sense. It's kinda like Frank Herbert, they just tell you what's up, straight to the point. Actually Ursula Le Guin kinda does this too. I'd say it is the most common prose you'll read.
In the week before their departure to Arrakis, when all the final scurrying about had reached a nearly unbearable frenzy, an old crone came to visit the mother of the boy, Paul.
It was a warm night at Castle Caladan, and the ancient pile of stone that had served the Atreides family as home for twenty-six generations bore that cooled-sweat feeling it acquired before a change in the weather.
The old woman was let in by the side door down the vaulted passage by Paul's room and she was allowed a moment to peer in at him where he lay in his bed.
By the half-light of a suspensor lamp, dimmed and hanging near the floor, the awakened boy could see a bulky female shape at his door, standing one step ahead of his mother. The old woman was a witch shadow—hair like matted spiderwebs, hooded 'round darkness of features, eyes like glittering jewels.
"Is he not small for his age, Jessica?" the old woman asked. Her voice wheezed and twanged like an untuned baliset.
Paul's mother answered in her soft contralto: "The Atreides are known to start late getting their growth, Your Reverence."
"So I've heard, so I've heard," wheezed the old woman. "Yet he's already fifteen."
"Yes, Your Reverence."
"He's awake and listening to us," said the old woman. "Sly little rascal." She chuckled. "But royalty has need of slyness. And if he's really the Kwisatz Haderach ... well...."
Within the shadows of his bed, Paul held his eyes open to mere slits. Two bird-bright ovals—the eyes of the old woman—seemed to expand and glow as they stared into his.
"Sleep well, you sly little rascal," said the old woman. "Tomorrow you'll need all your faculties to meet my gom jabbar."
And she was gone, pushing his mother out, closing the door with a solid thump.
Paul lay awake wondering: What's a gom jabbar?
Most people just talk about their subjective opinion on prose like for example not liking how Cormac McCarthy writes. It is indeed a little strange but it isn't bad, it is it's own unique flavour. Blood Meridian has a battle scene and the way Cormac has written it helps convey the stress and energy of the situation. You can't get a break much like the person in the battle.
The judge placed his hands on the ground. He looked at his inquisitor. This is my claim, he said. And yet everywhere upon it are pockets of autonomous life. Autonomous. In order for it to be mine nothing must be permitted to occur upon it save by my dispensation.
Toadvine sat with his boots crossed before the fire. No man can acquaint himself with everything on this earth, he said.
The judge tilted his great head. The man who believes that the secrets of this world are forever hidden lives in mystery and fear. Superstition will drag him down. The rain will erode the deeds of his life. But that man who sets himself the task of singling out the thread of order from the tapestry will by the decision alone have taken charge of the world and it is only by such taking charge that he will effect a way to dictate the terms of his own fate.
Oh my god, said the sergeant.
A rattling drove of arrows passed through the company and men tottered and dropped from their mounts. Horses were rearing and plunging and the mongol hordes swung up along their flanks and turned and rode full upon them with lances.
The company was now come to a halt and the first shots were fired and the gray riflesmoke rolled through the dust as the lancers breached their ranks. The kid's horse sank beneath him with a long pneumatic sigh. He had already fired his rifle and now he sat on the ground and fumbled with his shotpouch. A man near him sat with an arrow hanging out of his neck. He was bent slightly as if in prayer. The kid would have reached for the bloody hoop-iron point but then he saw that the man wore another arrow in his breast to the fletching an he was dead. Everywhere there were horses down and men scrambling and he saw a man who sat charging his rifle while blood ran from his ears and he saw men with their revolvers disassembled trying to fit the spare loaded cylinders they carried and he saw men kneeling who tilted and clasped their shadows on the ground and he saw men lanced and caught up by the hair and scalped standing and he saw horses of war trample down the fallen and a little whitefaced pony with one clouded eye leaned out of the murk and snapped at him like a dog and was gone. Among the wounded some seemed dumb and without understanding and some were pale through the masks of dust and some had fouled themselves or tottered brokenly onto the spears of the savages. Now driving in a wild frieze of headlong horses with eyes walled and teeth cropped and naked riders with clusters of arrows clenched in their jaws and their shields winking in the dust and up the far side of the ruined ranks in a piping of boneflutes and dropping down off the sides of their mounts with one heel hung in the withers strap and their short bows flexing beneath the outstretched necks of the ponies until they had circled the company and cut their ranks in two and then rising up again like funhouse figures, some with nightmare faces painted on their breasts, riding down the unhorsed Saxons and spearing and clubbing them and leaping from their mounts with knives and running about on the ground with a peculiar bandylegged trot like creatures driven to alien forms of locomotion and stripping the clothes from the dead and seizing them up by the hair and passing their blades about the skulls of the living and the dead alike and snatching aloft the the bloody wigs and hacking and chopping at the naked bodies, ripping off limbs, heads, gutting the strange white torsos and holding up great handfuls of viscera, genitals, some of the savages so slathered up with gore they might have rolled in it like dogs and some who fell upon the dying and sodomized them with loud cries to their fellows. And now the horses of the dead came pounding out of the smoke and dust and circled with flapping leather and wild manes and eyes whited with fear like the eyes of the blind and some were feathered with arrows and some lanced through and stumbling and vomiting blood as they wheeled across the killing ground and clattered from sight again. Dust stanched the wet and naked heads of the scalped who with the fringe of hair below their wounds and tonsured to the bone now lay like maimed and naked monks in the bloodslaked dust and everywhere the dying groaned and gibbered and horses lay screaming.
Some books have great examples of prose like Patrick Rothfuss who is able to combine flowery language and description and sometimes it is poetic. I have found that it flows really well and is generally a joy to read.
It was night again. The Waystone Inn lay in silence, and it was a silence of three parts.
The most obvious part was a hollow, echoing quiet, made by things that were lacking. If there had been a wind it would have sighed through the trees, set the inn's sign creaking on its hooks, and brushed the silence down the road like trailing autumn leaves. If there had been a crowd, even a handful of men inside the inn, they would have filled the silence with conversation and laughter, the clatter and clamor one expects from a drinking house during the dark hours of night. If there had been music...but no, of course there was no music. In fact there were none of these things, and so the silence remained.
Inside the Waystone a pair of men huddled at one corner of the bar. They drank with quiet determination, avoiding serious discussions of troubling news. In doing this they added a small, sullen silence to the larger, hollow one. It made an alloy of sorts, a counterpoint.
The third silence was not an easy thing to notice. If you listened for an hour, you might begin to feel it in the wooden floor underfoot and in the rough, splintering barrels behind the bar. It was in the weight of the black stone hearth that held the heat of a long dead fire. It was in the slow back and forth of a white linen cloth rubbing along the grain of the bar. And it was in the hands of the man who stood there, polishing a stretch of mahogany that already gleamed in the lamplight.
The man had true-red hair, red as flame. His eyes were dark and distant, and he moved with the subtle certainty that comes from knowing many things.
The Waystone was his, just as the third silence was his. This was appropriate, as it was the greatest silence of the three, wrapping the others inside itself. It was deep and wide as autumn's ending. It was heavy as a great river-smooth stone. It was the patient, cut-flower sound of a man who is waiting to die.
Guy Gavriel Kay also has nice prose
Ultimately the best prose will communicate the idea effectively and also somehow add to the location or the character or the feel/atmosphere. It is good to be able to get across your point but it is another level to get that point across in a way that also elicits extra. So you can have a character be an asshole but it is better prose to have the language used really get that point across, it's another layer that enhances the description.
I am about 150 pages into Well of Ascension, just past a rather intricate duel with Zane. I am now visualizing the characters with the extendable arms from ARMS for Push/Pull battles, and that seems to match much more with Brandon's description of how that magic should behave. It is also enormously entertaining to imagine.
So far, I think I enjoyed both Stormlight Archive and Warbreaker more than I have Mistborn. That is more a testament to the former than a knock on the latter. Still 1000+ pages to go!
Started reading Bands of Mourning. Every time I pick up a new Sanderson book coming from reading something else, it always strikes me just how good his writing is. Whereas certain authors excel at descriptive prose, I feel like Sanderson's strength is his dialogue, the exchanges which are just so enjoyable, clever and constantly entertaining.
The best thing about Sanderson is the flow that he achieves. Everything is being told in such a seamless and entertaining way that when the sanderlanche comes at the end, the resolution of the story is so rewarding and satisfying to the reader.
Huh. It's funny, I'm going through Way of Kings again for a series reread and both of these things are what I'd highlight as the weakest parts of his writing, compared to a lot of other authors (as a most recent point of comparison, I've just read Django Wexler's new book Ashes of the Sun, as well as Two of Swords and 16 Ways to Defend a Walled City by K.J. Parker). I'd point to Sander's plots as great, and of course his worldbuilding is very cool, but the character writing is just okay, and I'm noticing a lot of "stop and explain stuff" moments in the narration that can make it read a little jerky at times.
Overall, when I think great prose in fantasy, my first thought is usually somebody like Sir Terry Pratchett. Not measuring up to Discworld is hardly a real hit on an author, though, because... what does?
Though I was really into Sanderson earlier this year and late last year I've only thought to search for this thread now. Just dropping by to say hello.
I've read a lot of the cosmere stuff and right now I'm working my way through Stormlight, currently in Words of Radiance. Mistborn probably remains my favorite overall, though I've only read the first era, the novel I most want right now is some sort of sequel to Warbreaker.
Finished White Sands yesterday and it's probably the thing I liked the least from the Cosmere so far. Like most of the other stuff, it has an interesting world but I just felt like it was badly handled, maybe just due to it being a graphic novel I don't know. Kenton though, dude gave me a lot of whiplash in how he acts and a lot of the conflicts in the story seem to have some really dubious forms of resolution even though it feels like barely anything happens by the end of it.
Anyway, enjoying Stormlight so far, I'm glad to have a protagonist that seems to prefer using a spear than a sword, truly the best melee weapon along with lances and halberds, though given all the shardblades I sadly doubt it'll stay this way. After I finish this I think I'll just jump into ars arcanum to read some of the other short stories I missed and then catch up with mistborn era 2.
Finished a re-read of Words of Radiance yesterday. Whew, what a ride! He really does keep the momentum going throughout the whole book.
What's kind of hilarious though, and one of the main reasons why I'm re-reading, is I sort of forgot the order of events for these books. Like, in my mind, the plots of Way of Kings and Words of Radiance all happen in one book. I think its due to the setting not really changing, and logically I know some stuff like Shallan's arrival and plot all obviously happen chronologically, but it all just blurred together for me.
I still kind of hate Sanderson's "witty" dialogue. It always feels like forced Dad jokes. I remember really hating it in Oathbringer, so we'll see once I finish that one. I also think that Sanderson's prose is very accessible and pushes you along like a river current. There are sometimes where this is great, but personally I have to kind of reel myself in and slow down to absorb details.
One of the main reasons I was re-reading was due to the Tor "revisiting" articles. Specifically talking about Cosmere connections. I had totally missed everything in the Mraize's lair that was Cosmere relevant. During that scene, I wanted to keep reading and push forward, but I had to slow down to kind of notice, "oh shit! That's from Shadows for Silence!" It's a cool connection that I would've missed if I hadn't really been looking for it. And even at the time of release, I should've noticed things like the White Sand sand, but I just tore through that part.
I am about 150 pages into Well of Ascension, just past a rather intricate duel with Zane. I am now visualizing the characters with the extendable arms from ARMS for Push/Pull battles, and that seems to match much more with Brandon's description of how that magic should behave. It is also enormously entertaining to imagine.
So far, I think I enjoyed both Stormlight Archive and Warbreaker more than I have Mistborn. That is more a testament to the former than a knock on the latter. Still 1000+ pages to go!
I really liked the ending to Well of Ascension. I figured out that OreSeur/TenSoon was the kandra spy, which I feel proud of.
Reading the epigraphs for part one of HoA, it seems likely to me that either Spook or Sazed is the Hero of Ages, not Vin. Probably Sazed, because: it would be thematic to have another Terrisman take the power of Preservation; it doesn't seem to fit Vin's character; and Sazed is the only one who can recreate all of the cultures that have been lost.
I am a bit sick of two repeating descriptors: 'the man/woman he/she loved,' and 'broken' characters. The former seems mostly Mistborn-specific, and has reoccurred often enough to get on my nerves. The latter just feels angsty, but Sanderson's characters seem to think it describes them often.
Looking forward to finishing the trilogy! My plans to finish out the Cosmere are: Shadows->Sixth of the Dusk->Elantris + Hope->Wax and Wayne->Secret History. (I won't read White Sands until it gets a single volume release.)
A chunk into Bands of Mourning. Enjoying it. Feels like an actual adventure which is more appealing than Shadows of Self was. The train action scene was great.
The best part of the first couple hundred pages of the book though? Wayne's walnuts.
The bit in the early meeting with the Kandra where everyone is shocked by the photo slide projector technology and then Wayne breaks the silence throwing a walnut at the wall to "see if it's real", and then the scene continues up to the climax of:
The room fell silent.
A walnut bounced off VenDell's head.
He immediately turned to glare at Wayne.
"Sorry," Wayne said. "Just had trouble believing someone could be so melodramatic, so I figured you might not be real. Hadda check, ya know?"
lollllll, at this point in Cosmere I think Wayne is my favorite Sanderson character.
I really liked the ending to Well of Ascension. I figured out that OreSeur/TenSoon was the kandra spy, which I feel proud of.
Reading the epigraphs for part one of HoA, it seems likely to me that either Spook or Sazed is the Hero of Ages, not Vin. Probably Sazed, because: it would be thematic to have another Terrisman take the power of Preservation; it doesn't seem to fit Vin's character; and Sazed is the only one who can recreate all of the cultures that have been lost.
I am a bit sick of two repeating descriptors: 'the man/woman he/she loved,' and 'broken' characters. The former seems mostly Mistborn-specific, and has reoccurred often enough to get on my nerves. The latter just feels angsty, but Sanderson's characters seem to think it describes them often.
Looking forward to finishing the trilogy! My plans to finish out the Cosmere are: Shadows->Sixth of the Dusk->Elantris + Hope->Wax and Wayne->Secret History. (I won't read White Sands until it gets a single volume release.)
More speculation! I just started part 4 of Hero of Ages.
So from what Ruin said, it seems like Vin has a hemalurgical spike in her. It was probably inserted by her mother through the body of her sister. I am guessing this is the source of Vin's ability to pierce copper clouds. However, I am not sure which of these scenarios is more likely:
-Vin is a natural Mistborn and her sister was a bronze-burning Misting
-Vin was a bronze-burning Misting and her sister was a natural Mistborn
I am leaning towards the former, since Inquistors need a unique steel spike for each metal. I am excited to find out!
EDIT: Spoilers through Ch. 54
Woah, hold up. New speculation: is Vin's bronze earring the hemalurgical spike? (She just woke up from being drugged and got it back from Yomen).
