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Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere |OT| Journey Before Destination
- Thread starter ExMachina
- Start date
Out of curiosity what other large epic fantasy series would you recommend after catching up with Cosmere? I've never read LoTR, if I've seen the movies and not really into generic orcs & elves & dwarves type fantasy, is it still worth reading? What about Wheel of Time?
So, lots of people really, really like The Wheel of Time. I am not one of them.
Wheel of Time is a series of 14 long books. The original author, Robert Jordan, was only able to write 11 books before his death, so Sanderson (a huge fan of the series) wrote the final three.
The first book, The Eye of the World, is incredible—fast paced, compelling characters, and amazing world building. In an odd way, it reminds me of the wide-eyed wonder of Ocarina of Time.
I'm actually of the opinion that Eye of the World can be read as a standalone novel, and I fully encourage you to do that. The final paragraph of EoTW will leave you wanting more, but it does also provide closure—if you stop think about it for a moment, you'll realize the book just told you everything you need to know.
Books 2–4 are okay. They should have been a lot shorter, and should have had less stupid gender politics, but they're fine. And then 5–11 are all down hill, with less and less actually happening each book. 11 is kind of better than 10, but only because 10 is awful.
As I said, the final three books are amazing. The last third of the last book is one incredible non-stop action scene that just goes on, and on, and on without letting up for a moment. Unfortunately, I don't think the journey is worth the destination.
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Out of all the books I've read, the one I think feels most like a Sanderson work is actually Garth Nix's The Old Kingdom trilogy, which consists of Sabriel, Lirael, and Abhorsen. I'm actually convinced that Elantris's magic system was pulled directly from The Old Kingdom, (possibly unconsciously), and that The Old Kingdom did it better. I'm not sure they're long enough to classify as "Epic Fantasy", but they are good. (Note, the author has written some newer books in the world, and they aren't very good, except for the short stories which are great.)
Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy is significantly less Sanderson-like in terms of writing style and overall values, but the world feels like something Sanderson could have constructed, and that series is very special to me. I highly recommend the audiobooks in particular if you have any interest in that format.
And then at the bottom of the list I'll throw in The Licanius Trilogy, which felt like something of a cross between The Wheel of Time (the good parts) and a Sanderson novel. The only problem is it felt like an author's first work—which it was—in that the writing and characters felt a bit sloppy at times. But the plot was very enjoyable.
Edit: Oh, and you also asked about Lord of the Rings. IMO it's a product of its time—the formula has been done better by later books. But it does stand out in my mind for being very well-paced from start to finish. Note I haven't read it since I was a child, though.
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I am currently reading WoT and agree with you about EOTW compared to books 2-3.
I haven't read it myself but I've heard great things about Joe Abercrombies first law.
I also liked Brian Stavely's works, The Powder Mage books, and Michael J Sullivan's book series.
I think I'm too damn picky about tone. I thought The Powder Mage books were too dark, and Michael J. Sullivan's books were too light. Sanderson always manages to hit that perfect middle ground for me.
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Powder Mage was fucking dreadful too, so there's that.
Sanderson is kind of unique in a lot of ways tbh. He's not the best character or scene/action writer, but his worldbuilding is second to none, and it does hit that tone sweetspot where you can feel the stakes but it never gets too dark. Other stuff that manages that... Lessee, Codex Alera, Dagger & Coin (sorta), Shadow Campaigns (really it's hard to go wrong with Django Wexler), but Sanderson again is just on this whole other level with regards to worldbuilding.
(Ofc I'd also recommend Dresden Files, but it's urban fantasy not high)
Sanderson is kind of unique in a lot of ways tbh. He's not the best character or scene/action writer, but his worldbuilding is second to none, and it does hit that tone sweetspot where you can feel the stakes but it never gets too dark. Other stuff that manages that... Lessee, Codex Alera, Dagger & Coin (sorta), Shadow Campaigns (really it's hard to go wrong with Django Wexler), but Sanderson again is just on this whole other level with regards to worldbuilding.
(Ofc I'd also recommend Dresden Files, but it's urban fantasy not high)
Who do you think is better than Sanderson at writing action scenes?
I actually think those might be what he's best at. The aerial fights in Mistborn, for instance, are anything else I've ever read.
Haven't read the other two, but I was really enjoying the first Codex Alera book up until this one point where two women get captured and brutally tortured. I couldn't get through it and had to put the book down. It was such an out-of-left-field tonal shift, too.
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TBH I'd rate Butcher over him, and probably at least a few other authors. Sanderson sets up his fights very well but they don't quite have that same... heart-pounding, have to get up and pace around the room from sheer exhilaration factor, for me at least.
And Alera has a little early installment weirdness. I'd recommend giving it another shot at some point.
I'd actually prefer a series a little darker than Sanderson. I'm coming to Cosmere from Ice & Fire and The Dark Tower and both of those are a lot darker which I find makes them more tense.
I don't think I'd be up for anything lighter and younger aimed than Sanderson for a serious multi-book epic lore kind of thing. I like light stuff mostly for comedy/humor which is more single book usually outside things like Hitchhiker's Guide. I just finished the first Discworld book and it didn't click with me.
For me, Sanderson's tone feels like PG-13 summer blockbuster films aka Marvel movies aka Star Wars movies. Which is fine since I like those things. The writing and mystery lore tends to be a cut above, but a lot of things still explode on a regular basis.
I don't think I'd be up for anything lighter and younger aimed than Sanderson for a serious multi-book epic lore kind of thing. I like light stuff mostly for comedy/humor which is more single book usually outside things like Hitchhiker's Guide. I just finished the first Discworld book and it didn't click with me.
For me, Sanderson's tone feels like PG-13 summer blockbuster films aka Marvel movies aka Star Wars movies. Which is fine since I like those things. The writing and mystery lore tends to be a cut above, but a lot of things still explode on a regular basis.
For something that has a bit of Sanderson feel but is less "PG-13" feeling, there's The Lightbringer series by Brent Weeks. It's not as dark as ASOIAF and The Dark Tower, or The First Law trilogy. It's also not super heavy on political intrigue. The magic system is up there with Sanderson's though and the action scenes are quite good. I'd probably place it somewhere between Grim Dark and Sanderson's relatively lighter tone but sit it a little closer to Sanderson in style.
For quick, fun fantasy reads, I like Kings of the Wyld and Bloody Rose by Nicholas Eames, which are both standalone but in the same world. I also just came across Orcanomics and Son of a Liche by J. Zachary Pike, which are technically books 1 and 2 of a saga but are quick and witty reads that take an interesting angle on the Fantasy genre by including modern economics. It sounds weird but it's done quite well, I think. All four of these books have some pretty heavy DnD/RPG inspiration and references but aren't really "inside baseball" about it.
For quick, fun fantasy reads, I like Kings of the Wyld and Bloody Rose by Nicholas Eames, which are both standalone but in the same world. I also just came across Orcanomics and Son of a Liche by J. Zachary Pike, which are technically books 1 and 2 of a saga but are quick and witty reads that take an interesting angle on the Fantasy genre by including modern economics. It sounds weird but it's done quite well, I think. All four of these books have some pretty heavy DnD/RPG inspiration and references but aren't really "inside baseball" about it.
Pretty close to 40% of the way through Way of Kings right now. This is almost to the end of Part 2 by the way. Maybe 1.5 chapters left before the interludes.
I hear the pacing complaints and to an extent I get it but it hasn't really bothered me too much. I knew going in what it was going to be like so I just kept at it. I often times don't mind that the pacing of a book is slower or that an author I enjoy is being a little indulgent with getting to the point with certain things. I'm enjoying it quite a bit so far.
Makes that leatherbound mighty tempting. Definitely will be able to finish this before the Kickstarter ends.
I hear the pacing complaints and to an extent I get it but it hasn't really bothered me too much. I knew going in what it was going to be like so I just kept at it. I often times don't mind that the pacing of a book is slower or that an author I enjoy is being a little indulgent with getting to the point with certain things. I'm enjoying it quite a bit so far.
Makes that leatherbound mighty tempting. Definitely will be able to finish this before the Kickstarter ends.
Definitely going to finish Way of Kings tomorrow
Really enjoying it but the idea of reading Words of Radiance right after is not something I want right now. So I will of course be taking a break!
Also if you watch any of Brandon's streams later on beware that he has his editors on this most recent one from this past Thursday and they are a little rough about spoilers from the start.
Really enjoying it but the idea of reading Words of Radiance right after is not something I want right now. So I will of course be taking a break!
Also if you watch any of Brandon's streams later on beware that he has his editors on this most recent one from this past Thursday and they are a little rough about spoilers from the start.
I agree. It hooked me from page one. Didn't mind the pacing at all, honestly.
I love Way of Kings so much.
Okay I lied I finished it Saturday in a marathon reading session. Final 300 pages read in one day!
There were a few points where I was almost moved to tears.
Can only think of a few other books that have had that impact on me.
It was just incredible. I know I need a break to read other, shorter things but dang does part of me want to go right into Words of Radiance. But I have so so so much to read it is almost irresponsible to dedicate another 35+ hours to reading one book.
Seriously considering the kickstarter too.
There were a few points where I was almost moved to tears.
Can only think of a few other books that have had that impact on me.
It was just incredible. I know I need a break to read other, shorter things but dang does part of me want to go right into Words of Radiance. But I have so so so much to read it is almost irresponsible to dedicate another 35+ hours to reading one book.
Seriously considering the kickstarter too.
Nice! Might I suggest Arcanum Unbounded? You don't have to read the whole thing all at once, but I notice you read the Mistborn original trilogy and Elantris so Mistborn Secret History is now a must-read. The other short stories are great too. Just wait on Edgedancer till after Words of Radiance.
Not at all. The Cosmere stuff is intended to be more of a behind the scenes, Easter egg situation in the first few books. Since Elantris was the first book he published, there's really nothing to miss. It's a stand-alone, and serves that purpose well. It's also one of my least favorite Sanderson books, but I kind of want to revisit it sometime in the future.
Now, is anybody reading Way of Kings Prime? It's kind of insane how differently it starts. It's like looking at a funhouse mirror version of what got published.
The only thing I'd say is read war breaker before Stormlight Archive, other than that the order doesn't matter.
As mentioned above, by and large the connections between the books amount to easter eggs. Stormlight is probably the biggest culprit of involving things from other series, but even those are ancillary at best. Some of the references are vague enough that you might not even catch them even if you read the associated books (guilty!)
That being said, I can still suggest which books should be read before which others:
Elantris before Mistborn Secret History
Bands of Mourning before Words of Radiance
Warbreaker ideally read before starting Stormlight, but especially before Words of Radiance
I know you've had some responses and they aren't WRONG but I always like to put the position out there that I feel it's best to generally not read things too out of order from how they were published. Ultimately, no, it doesn't matter, but I really do think that's the best way to get the most out of the connective tissue that exists between stories. there's less connective tissue between earlier books, but it has been ramping up for a while.
Other than that I don't like making recommendations in general on specific books anymore because it clues the reader in too much on what connections to expect. I think they are more enjoyable personally when they pop up unexpectedly. There is one exception: I wouldn't read Secret History until after Bands of Mourning. People will say it's ok after finishing the first Mistborn Trilogy (aka Era 1) but I think you are doing yourself a disservice if you read it that early; it was published at the same time as Bands, and readers were told to read Bands first. Later when it was collected into Arcanum Unbounded, even that book Indicated major spoilers for Era 1 and minor spoilers for Bands, but to me it's more than minor and I stick by the original recommendation to read it after Bands.
...I actually think I wholly disagree. Outside of the few exceptions mentioned above, that connective tissue works equally well in either direction, so you may as well go with what piques your interest. (And even those exceptions don't matter that much, it's just a bit non-optimal in the other direction.)
I'll go even further and say, part of what I find intriguing about the Cosmere is it's an interesting experiment in non-linear storytelling.
Edit: Someone with graphic design skills should make a metroidvania-esque map of possible reading orders. Elantris and The Final Empire are both starting points, but Warbreaker needs to come before Words of Radience, etc. 😀
You WHOLLY disagree? Part of that statement was acknowledging it ultimately doesn't matter and that the people who already said it doesn't matter aren't wrong... that position is already represented, well established, and accepted in the post you responded to.
Interview in The Guardian prompted by the success of the kickstarter. (My apologies if this has already been posted)
Oh, I think that came out stronger than I intended, I'm sorry! All I meant is, I don't think that readers get more out of the connective tissue when the books are read in publication order versus out of publication order (aside from, again, the few noted exceptions).
I fall into that camp personally. For me it's just about having a clearer picture of the events of Era 1 which may help you enjoy and appreciate the details in MSH more. MSH is one of my favourite cosmere books, and I think that's partially due to the fact I read it immediately after Hero of Ages.
I still really enjoyed Bands of Mourning and didn't feel that I was losing anything. That's just my opinion, others will feel differently, I understand that.
So, in the hype for the new stuff, I'm reminded of one of my least favorite pieces of the Cosmere. The supplementary material. I was looking at Tor's analysis of the sample chapters, and the writers mention a Word of Brandon.
I think it's super cool that all Brandon answers questions at his signings. But these WoB's seem to confirm certain theories that seep into the community and become kind of taken as fact. And it's hard to keep up with everything that's going on. Maybe that's a fault of my inattentiveness as a reader, but I'm not looking up transcripts of questions from events. So say I look up a character because I was trying to remind myself of something, the Wiki references some obscure WoB that changes something.
Maybe I'm making too much of this, but there's only so much I can retain from a huge 800 page book! I try to grab the details but it's hard, and then there's the WoB layer and it just gets annoying.
I think it's super cool that all Brandon answers questions at his signings. But these WoB's seem to confirm certain theories that seep into the community and become kind of taken as fact. And it's hard to keep up with everything that's going on. Maybe that's a fault of my inattentiveness as a reader, but I'm not looking up transcripts of questions from events. So say I look up a character because I was trying to remind myself of something, the Wiki references some obscure WoB that changes something.
Maybe I'm making too much of this, but there's only so much I can retain from a huge 800 page book! I try to grab the details but it's hard, and then there's the WoB layer and it just gets annoying.
Neh, I've had this exact same issue. Just way too much of the cosmere knowledge is held within WoB and from con q&a's. I'm worried we will never get a lot of these answers in details in stories ever because people studies these WoB's so much that it just becomes common knowledge.
I agree! I will even go so far as to say that, all things considered, I would prefer if Sanderson didn't answer questions like this. Maybe once the whole series has been published, he could answer additional questions/theories about things that just never made it into the book or which ended up being unintentionally confusing, but doing it now takes some of the magic away IMO.
Sanderson, fwiw, does seem to be aware of this problem—he's talked about trying to find a balance between interacting with readers and also making sure that the books can speak for themselves. But right now, the balance is quite a ways away from what I personally would prefer.
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I don't disagree with anything you're saying regarding WoB, however to me this isn't a fault of the author or of his writing. If anything it's emblematic of how thoroughly invested (no pun intended!) people are in his creations. The thirst for information is real. Whether he answers or not, it's going to be a catch-22.
the best we can hope for IMO is for him to eventually publish an encylopaedia of sorts to collect a lot of the supplementary information that was never in the main books. that could be a lot of fun to read.
the best we can hope for IMO is for him to eventually publish an encylopaedia of sorts to collect a lot of the supplementary information that was never in the main books. that could be a lot of fun to read.
I'm about 420 pages into Mistborn, some shit is about to go DOWN by what I just read. I've been enjoying the book quite a bit. It feels like I've read 400 pages where not a lot happened but yet I'm engrossed in this crew as they are all so well written. I wish Vin would act a little more adult, shes now 17 in the book and she kind of acts and talks like a 13-year-old. But other than that, this shit is good!
Same here, started again a few days ago and already halfway through.
So much awesomeness to look forward to and so much stuff to discover I missed the first time.
Rythm of War Prologue reaction:
I've only read the released Prologue so far of Rythm of War and I just absolutely love the continued shift in perspective about a single night and especially a specific character.
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probably better to spoiler this, many people will want to be going in completely blind when the book is released
Is the prologue really that spoilery? It's always the same night and a different perspective?
no it's not, just trying to be considerate. I know some people are very fussy about such things, especially pre-release
it doesn't bother me personally, is what I'm saying :P
I'll spoiler it, it doesn't bother me to. Just wasn't sure what information I was conveying that wouldn't be known already.
I finished The Final Empire, what a fantastic book. I can't wait to read more, and I've put together a list of the order I'm going to read the Cosmere. This is just how I'm going to read them personally and I don't think I'll miss anything this way. The AU I'm putting next to some titles are the stories in Arcanum Unbounded as that is how I will read them
Mistborn: The Final Empire
The Well of Ascension
The Hero of Ages
The Eleventh Metal (AU)
Elantris
The Hope of Elantris (AU)
The Emperor's Soul (AU)
The Alloy of Law
Allomancer Jak and Pits of Eltania (AU)
Shadows of Self
The Bands of Mourning
Mistborn: Secret History (AU)
Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell (AU)
The Way of Kings
Warbreaker
Words of Radiance
Edgedancer (AU)
Oathbringer
Sixth of the Dusk (AU)
Rhythm of War
Rhythm of War will definitely be released by the time I get there which is why I put it on the list already. Let me know if I should change some AU stories (mostly Shadows for Silence and Sixth of the Dusk, I'm not sure if I need any info from those before or after anything I put there). I figured I'd sprinkle some of the stories In between the big books and I'll save Warbreaker for later in between the Stormlights as well.
Mistborn: The Final Empire
The Well of Ascension
The Hero of Ages
The Eleventh Metal (AU)
Elantris
The Hope of Elantris (AU)
The Emperor's Soul (AU)
The Alloy of Law
Allomancer Jak and Pits of Eltania (AU)
Shadows of Self
The Bands of Mourning
Mistborn: Secret History (AU)
Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell (AU)
The Way of Kings
Warbreaker
Words of Radiance
Edgedancer (AU)
Oathbringer
Sixth of the Dusk (AU)
Rhythm of War
Rhythm of War will definitely be released by the time I get there which is why I put it on the list already. Let me know if I should change some AU stories (mostly Shadows for Silence and Sixth of the Dusk, I'm not sure if I need any info from those before or after anything I put there). I figured I'd sprinkle some of the stories In between the big books and I'll save Warbreaker for later in between the Stormlights as well.
There's some small benefit of reading Shadows for Silence and Sixth of the Dusk before The Way of Kings but it's super small and not at all mandatory. Those two stories don't have any major implications on The Cosmere overall just yet as far as I can remember.
LoTR is kind of slow. And so is WoT honestly, however what they both have in common is great worldbuilding so if you enjoy that I would say give them a go.
WoT. Oh boy. So I have a love/hate relationship with it right now, I'm on book 6. The worldbuilding is outstanding, it is dense and interesting. The central plot is good and the novels end in a similar way to Sanderson's in that everything interesting comes together into a satisfying conclusion that makes you want to read more.
I found the first book the worst. It is meandering and bland generally, but it provides important building blocks. 2 and 3 aren't much better tbh outside of Rand and Perrin. It wasn't until book 4/5 that I thought the characters actually started to be great (well the guys and Egwene lmao. To be fair, they are basically kids and still had growing up to do). I think Jordan just hates women because they are all arrogant, stubborn, and annoying, and especially when talking to the men. It makes me want to tug my braid (if I had one). Also he repeats certain actions repeatedly like he is getting paid by the word, which also makes me want to tug my braid (if you get my meaning). Like seriously, there are certain characters (and factions) that need to grow the fuck up. The Aes Sedai are perhaps the most aggravatingly arrogant and dumb people I've ever had to read, and guess what? They're all women, hmmm tell us how you really feel Jordan. Omfg his writing of women is terrible.
But there are interesting developments interspersed within that have me curious in how they will be used going forward. Jordan has been very good at foreshadowing events, but also using everything he has shown in cool ways. I'm curious how some things will come to be an advantage to the heroes and how they will develop their unique and individual skills (and some have been paying off which is cool).
The books are slow, especially the first few. There is so much meandering. So much like why don't we stop in every village? Yea sounds like a great idea for nothing to happen.
Rhythm of War preview chapters and the Syl short story that was in one of the newsletter spoilers:
- Gavilar was an asshole, jeez.
- Yay flying ships!
- Poor Navani, impostor syndrome sucks.
- Lirin is kind of an asshole too, at least say hi to your son before you go all judgemental, damn. He really doesn't help Kaladin's depression, though I wonder if he knows about it. In the Syl short story Dalinar and his medics know about Kaladin's condition, and apparently Kaladin was working as a surgeon in that story, so I wonder if that short story happens during Rhythm of War.
- I wonder why Kaladin picked the name Stormblessed for his house, I thought he didn't like that name? Though both characters and the narrator would use Stormblessed as his last name sometimes in Oathbringer.
- Yay flying ships!
- Poor Navani, impostor syndrome sucks.
- Lirin is kind of an asshole too, at least say hi to your son before you go all judgemental, damn. He really doesn't help Kaladin's depression, though I wonder if he knows about it. In the Syl short story Dalinar and his medics know about Kaladin's condition, and apparently Kaladin was working as a surgeon in that story, so I wonder if that short story happens during Rhythm of War.
- I wonder why Kaladin picked the name Stormblessed for his house, I thought he didn't like that name? Though both characters and the narrator would use Stormblessed as his last name sometimes in Oathbringer.