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OP
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Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
Im just happy to see Japanese Devs back on the horse

Capcoms rise back to glory with Monster Hunter being the highlight of the generation for me. Honorable mentions for From Software and Nintendo as well
Yup that's my thinking as well, I grew up with SNES as the start for console gaming for me and it feels like Capcom is back at the state they were in the 90's when everything they did was super polished, and they work so fast as well, we just got both DMCV and RE2 and now the're soon releasing RE3 as well. I have to admit though, I have barely touched Monster Hunter (I know I need to correct that!) :/ But I played RE2 and was absolutely blown away by it!
 

DNgamers

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,001
Germany
In the AA and AAA game that's what has been the case for a few decades, in my opinion.

The indie department is much more interesting coming from western developers, though. Caves of Qud, Hollow Knight etc...There are some high tier masterpieces out there.
 

Nameless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,360
Whynotboth.gif

A lot of it depends on the type of game or genre. Both have their specific strengths, weaknesses, and goals.

Ueda/Miyazaki/Kojima/Sakaguchi is my gaming "Mt. Rushmore". Japanese games are why I fell in love with the medium and I'll always find them absolutely essential. That's said, I've definitely developed somewhat of a preference for the type of experiences Western design philosophies cultivate: WRPGs, Immersive Sims, Rockstar games, Sandbox Puzzlers etc... Stuff with an emphasis on clever, systems- driven mechanics & design, player freedom, and stellar writing. Witcher 3/Prey/RDR2/Outer Wilds/ DoS2/Pathologic 2/Kingdom Come Deliverance/ELEX/Talos Principle — by and large Japanese devs really don't scratch these itches, and that's ok.
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,492
Uurgghhhhhhhhhh

Category error.

People saying 'yes, look at my game collection'. Sigh.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
I mean, people who dislike this discussion can just not post in it? Ignore the thread, whatever. Thread whining is still thread whining if you personally dislike the content of the thread.
 

Adamska

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,042
Yeah a game that is highly based on Resident Evil 4
and it's barely an original game, the only thing that it had a decent game-play with good story-telling and characters.
Hah, someone never fired up Factions. Or the game itself, for that matter. To say it's highly based on RE4 just because the camera's on the player's back at all times is like saying RE4 is highly based on Wolfenstein 3D because it has guns.
 

Deleted member 12009

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
When it comes to third person mechanics, yes. Narrative is still a tossup, though I don't always like the character driven stories of Western games as much as the grand sociological ones in classic jrpgs.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,061
Whenever I see people make this assertion I kinda get the sense they only play console third person action games that get a lot of advertising.

They seem to look at games like Resident Evil, the recent Final Fantasy games, Devil May Cry, or Souls, and then compare them only to the likes of Assassin's Creed, The Division, God of War, Last of Us, maybe a Far Cry or something, maybe a Call of Duty, and some BioWare games or something.

That makes sense because those are the most visible games, but it also deliberately ignores markets and genres where western developers are far stronger. People who think Japanese games are better seem to usually be people who simply don't play first person shooters, CRPGs, or simulation games, and possibly not even multiplayer games.
 

Anoxida

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,537
I get what you're saying OP, I also feel like during 360/ps3 days a lot of jap devs had trouble switching to HD and the japanese output became less consistent. Seems like they got their shit together these days though.

As far as writing go I do believe Japan is behind at the moment. No, it's not just a different style there is definitely good writing and bad writing from a technical perspective. No japanese game (I dont count VNs) has ever been written close to the quality of something lile RDR2 for example.
 

Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
I think 2019 was a great year all around, but to me, Resident Evil 2 and DMC V don't really hold a candle to Outer Wilds and Disco Elysium. I value innovation too highly to really say Japanese dev's have the edge, but it's also really unfair to say "Are Japanese developers better than, basically, all the other developers in the world?". I'll also say, it's a little too early to include FF VII remake along with BOTW and Sekiro. I think it kind of hurts your argument if you have to use games that we don't know the quality of to try to pad out a list of top tier Japanese developed games. Given the quality of Final Fantasy games for the last 20 years or so, I'm hopeful, but also trying to remain realistic.
 

mogwai00

Member
Mar 24, 2018
1,253
I'm sorry, I grew up with arcades, consoles and personal computers, so I've always seen excellence both in Eastern and Western studios. And I still do
 

Japanmanx3

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,913
Atlanta, GA
sHKuxQV.gif
 
And Persona 5 is considered in the upper tier of JRPG writing (I haven't played DOS). This actually begs the question: What do people think are the best-written (and translated) JRPGs of all time? I imagine Shin Megami Tensei games will get mentioned in that discussion, along with perhaps Matsuno's games like Final Fantasy Tactics. Some of the top VNs are where you'll probably find the best writing in Japanese games since it's essentially prose burned onto a video game disc. The Yakuza games are also very atypical of Japanese game writing.
Probably Persona 4, Lost Odyssey(the side content that was written by the famous Japanese author ), some of FFXII and I guess VI alongside the ones you just mention
 

yurr

Alt-Account
Banned
Nov 20, 2019
946
Not in this context, no.
Opinions can be strong or weak. An opinion that was formed by reasonable observation/ judgments. It's a debate team terminology.

"Pizza is the perfect party food, because who doesn't like pizza?"

that's a weak opinion, you could refute it Easily and destroy someone trying to promote that argument as it stands.

"pizza is the perfect party food, because it's easy to serve, has a lot of options, and it can be simply delivered/prepared.

that is what I would call a strong opinion. It's basically the same opinion but it is substantiated. Granted just about any opinion can be argued but if you have to do mental gymnastics to make your case, then that makes it weak as well.

Atleast that's how I see it.
 

Gilver

Banned
Nov 14, 2018
3,725
Costa Rica
Japanese games were always better because of the development structure in my opinion, the director has way more power and influence over big projects and that can make a 10/10 game or a 3/10 game while the west has a very board room structure that is better at making consistent 8/10 games that sometimes feel uninspired in comparison.
Western indie games are different tho because they are more similar to the Japanese structure due to how little the teams are and the lack of high stakes for a publisher.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,712
If you're into interactive movies, sure. The Last of Us has cookie cutter/filler gameplay. ND puts more focus into characters and cinematics.
I'm no TLoU fan, but no. The gameplay is proper. Sneaking, crafting, combat, light exploration. It is in no way "filler gameplay"
 

Canucked

Comics Council 2020 & Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,416
Canada
this thread reads like the Magazine Die Hard Gamefan.

Plenty of great talent around the world. You're just cementing a bias in your head that bars you from enjoying experiences based on the content and not where they're made.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,741
Probably a little premature to include FFVIIR in this list, regardless.

That said, Japan has always had a good handle on action game mechanics. The issue usually comes down to presentation and approachability.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,909
They never left. American games got good at presentation in a hurry but when it comes to fun gameplay the Japanese output has always remained at the top for me
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
Mechanically, I'd say yes and even then it depends on the title in question. I would definitely rank some of the most emotionally charged games that I have played have come from JP development houses as well.

The biggest differentiator between the two have, for me, always come down to RPGs. JRPGs are far more constricted in the "role" portion of RPG when it comes to affecting the plot. Generally in JRPG, the player fulfills a more or less predestined role of the protagonist, unlike WRPG (esp. CRPGs). The exception is the Witcher series and even that series allows for far more player input that affects the narrative than any JRPG I have ever played. To that end, JRPGs sans SoulsBorne (that I have played) have been about role playing a grind game and/or a tactician in battles.

And one place where the western devs in general have JP devs absolutely licked is when it comes to inclusivity and diversity. This of course, is because of the cultural difference between them (and continued criticisms and push backs so many of them have received from minorities pertaining to lack of diversity over the years to learn from) and even at that, Western Development is understandably more fragmented due to their sheer number across so many places that fall under the umbrella of "Western".

If you're into interactive movies, sure. The Last of Us has cookie cutter/filler gameplay. ND puts more focus into characters and cinematics.

The times I have heard this trite old bullshit...
 
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Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
I think 2019 was a great year all around, but to me, Resident Evil 2 and DMC V don't really hold a candle to Outer Wilds and Disco Elysium. I value innovation too highly to really say Japanese dev's have the edge, but it's also really unfair to say "Are Japanese developers better than, basically, all the other developers in the world?". I'll also say, it's a little too early to include FF VII remake along with BOTW and Sekiro. I think it kind of hurts your argument if you have to use games that we don't know the quality of to try to pad out a list of top tier Japanese developed games. Given the quality of Final Fantasy games for the last 20 years or so, I'm hopeful, but also trying to remain realistic.
Disco Elysium is splendid. And when it comes to actual role-playing then JRPGs usually miss the mark. I had a ton of fun with The Outer Worlds as well, my #2 last year. But I'm not worried that FFVIIR will be a bad game, we already know and love the story and characters and Square Enix is far ahead of the usual jank in western RPGs when it comes to gameplay and controls. I think the chapter split is what will decide if it'll be on many GOTY lists or not.

I get what you're saying OP, I also feel like during 360/ps3 days a lot of jap devs had trouble switching to HD and the japanese output became less consistent. Seems like they got their shit together these days though.

As far as writing go I do believe Japan is behind at the moment. No, it's not just a different style there is definitely good writing and bad writing from a technical perspective. No japanese game (I dont count VNs) has ever been written close to the quality of something lile RDR2 for example.
Yeah western devs were clearly a lot faster to adapt to the higher graphical fidelity. But I honestly think it's a tie now, for some devs at least, already mentioned but look at RE2, it looks insanely good. And I'd say that it's mostly a matter of taste at this point if you think God of War looks better than DMCV or Bloodborne or if you think Forza Horizon 4 looks better than Gran Turismo Sport. There is usually a lot more finesse and style in the animations as well, there was a thread going on about the best character animation where people posted insane Monster Hunter gifs and you really have to dig deep to come close to that in the west.
 

Goldenroad

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,475
Disco Elysium is splendid. And when it comes to actual role-playing then JRPGs usually miss the mark. I had a ton of fun with The Outer Worlds as well, my #2 last year. But I'm not worried that FFVIIR will be a bad game, we already know and love the story and characters and Square Enix is far ahead of the usual jank in western RPGs when it comes to gameplay and controls. I think the chapter split is what will decide if it'll be on many GOTY lists or not.

I was talking Outer Wilds, not Outer Worlds, but Outer Worlds is alright too...definitely not all that innovative or interesting from a story perspective.

Also, I'm playing Kingdom Hearts right now, and I'd argue Square Enix is not that good at gameplay or controls if we use this (their most recent single player RPG) as any kind of benchmark. I think "jank" is kind of derogatory, but I'll say I think Outer Worlds, for all it's faults, plays a lot better, from a moment-to-moment gameplay perspective, than Kingdom Hearts 3 does. I know it's a different studio, but if we're just making blanket statements about entire regions of the world, I think Square Enix has not put out a great single player, (non Yoko Taro), RPG in a LONG time.
 

Skunk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,066
If you're into interactive movies, sure. The Last of Us has cookie cutter/filler gameplay. ND puts more focus into characters and cinematics.

Hard disagree there, the game is every bit as complex, polished, and varied mechanically as any Japanese game.

The issue isn't mechanics. If there's any failing at all I will grant you to TLOU it's that the mechanics don't substantially change over the course of a rather long campaign. The encounter at the courthouse or crooked building near the beginning of the game is functionally almost identical to the hospital or preceding sewer section at the end of the game; imo, that's a failing more of enemy variety than anything else: Human enemies are largely the same throughout the game and the infected are typically the same collection of zombies and clickers throughout most of the game, and on easy and normal difficulty lurkers and bloaters are hardly used at all. Which makes the encounter design somewhat one note, particularly if you're not playing a harder difficulty. I have hope that with things like the dogs they've shown in TLOU2 that the encounter design will hopefully be punched up.
 

ColonelForbin

Member
Oct 28, 2017
601
There have been great games from around the world. Japan usually makes very specific games with unique themes and combat systems. I don't think for a second they have somehow surpassed other markets. You name the one Japanese developer and I'll name another non with a great pedigree, awards, and prospects. Always needs to be a competition, right?
 

YukiroCTX

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,996
They're not really better or worse. There's just developers that are more exceptional than others in different genres, some that happen to be in the west and some that happen to be in Japan. There's not really any better consistency or diversity overall based around region. On my own preferences, my favourite games in a given year is pretty much rotation between different developers from different regions as well.
 

Avacyn

Member
Jan 14, 2020
40
Historically, I prefer Japanese games to western games most of the time and always have.
 

Hate

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,730
I think they'e both great.

I extremely prefer Japanese games though.

Japanese games tend to focus more on the gameplay side while western games focus on narratives and having a cinematic presentation. It's massively simplifying their traits but that's what I tend to notice.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Hard disagree there, the game is every bit as complex, polished, and varied mechanically as any Japanese game.

The issue isn't mechanics. If there's any failing at all I will grant you to TLOU it's that the mechanics don't substantially change over the course of a rather long campaign. The encounter at the courthouse or crooked building near the beginning of the game is functionally almost identical to the hospital or preceding sewer section at the end of the game; imo, that's a failing more of enemy variety than anything else: Human enemies are largely the same throughout the game and the infected are typically the same collection of zombies and clickers throughout most of the game, and on easy and normal difficulty lurkers and bloaters are hardly used at all. Which makes the encounter design somewhat one note, particularly if you're not playing a harder difficulty. I have hope that with things like the dogs they've shown in TLOU2 that the encounter design will hopefully be punched up.

What you're describing is essentially the same for most TPS out there, including Resident Evil, Gears of War, Ghost Recon, Dead space, Red Dead Redemption etc.

If anything TLOU actually still offers more gameplay diversity and encounter complexity than most, by way of the fact that it has a combination of gunplay, dynamic melee, stealth, use of environmental objects as well as on the fly in gameplay dynamic crafting (something that is unique to TLOU).

In terms of controls, movement fluidity, AI and level design, on the whole it's also stronger than many contemporaries, including vs Resident Evil, hence enemy variety only really tells a portion of the story.

Ultimately whilst comparatives like RE4/RE2R as two examples (that I love/enjoyed), may have better enemy variety than TLOU, the fundamental combat gameplay doesn't really change much over the course of those games either, and in terms of combat gameplay, in some ways they're far less nuanced, diverse and sophisticated in RE (due to tank like restrictive movement and controls, lack of stealth and cover mechanics, limited melee and environmental interaction, really poor AI, lots of mechanically basic slow stop and pop corridor funnelling style combat scenarios and so on) compared to TLOU.
 
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