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Buttchin-n-Bones

Actually knows the TOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,620
Ya I'm done arguing about HH, I don't agree at all with the reasons I'm getting. Still way too much projection.

"I'm not invested enough to refute all the point you've laid out but you're wrong. "

K thanks bud. I love how everyone is just projecting onto her as a character and not refuting every single thing I've said for pages. Yes she has seen the worst of him but she has forgiven him time and time again and she loves him. Again, people really would sell someone down the river at the slightest bad thing is what I'm getting out from somebody's responses. No forgiveness, toxic person will always be toxic.

OK I BJ will leave school and help you with your pain addiction,Because my love for you has grown and it's clearly become near unconditional. Actually naw that was a really bad story I heard from that random guy at the party, fuck all that growth we had. Nope. Nope
Nope.



Yea I'm done talking about this. It's still people projecting and inferring how she would be feeling post Pete. When everyone of my arguments has been how the character actions WE SEE in the show from HH are betrayed by the HH we meet in S6 pt ii. Like People are just responding by saying well this happened so she would feel this and this and this. When we get nothing from her at all, no explanation, nothing, not even a glimpse into the letter she wrote.

And I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people defending that storyline think all it would take is a random encounter and story from a stranger. That's such a huge character shift and action amen is barely flushed out or explained at all , and she just turns bitter towards him with little hesitation , then she just decides to cut him off in a dramatic letter and changing her number. I'm not giving the show a pass for this but hey I guess everyone else is.
Hope that hill is comfy my dude
 
Jul 5, 2019
260
"I'm not invested enough to refute all the point you've laid out but you're wrong. "
Some people have better things to do than write an essay-length thesis about why they disagree with you. That doesn't mean they don't have a right to an opinion. :P
K thanks bud. I love how everyone is just projecting onto her as a character and not refuting every single thing I've said for pages.
We're projecting? You can't seem to let go of this extremely strict position that "a young woman becomes uncomfortable when she discovers the half-brother that she hasn't known for that long has done some awful things to young women" is super out of character and horrible. Have you considered that you're the one projecting how you feel about this situation?
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
I'm personally of the opinion that I really think how they handled Hollyhock here was very effective. It is upsetting and frustrating, but that's a bit of the point. You don't need to see what's on the letter or see Hollyhock again, all the pieces for what happened and why it happened are all in the show very clearly even without saying it directly. There's enough context to explain what happened, why it happened and what it means to Bojack, and I think it even makes a lot of sense.

Furthermore, the fact that what Hollyhock does can start a dialect among viewers (I've seen much back-and-forth both here on Era, Reddit and a Discord I'm in on Hollyhock) and left an impression on a lot of people, yet how the show honestly handles it is very quietly, shows to me it was an impacting scene for many (even if some are really upset by it or can't agree at all with what Hollyhock does), and it shows a certain type of thing that does happen in life sometimes. Sometimes people cut you out of their life because you've done shitty things or they just can't be comfortable or close with you anymore, and you get no real closure with them, things just kinda' end. It does happen like that sometimes, and sometimes it's even very clearly the consequence of your choices in the past that leads to that. One of the stronger themes of the back-half of Season 6 in my opinion is that sometimes there's irreparable damage you've done and things you can never get back because of it, and I think what happens with Hollyhock personifies that in a realistic way perfectly.

And it fuels a stronger element of Bojack's own character arc, losing Hollyhock makes him spiral for a bit, but it also makes him more seriously reflect on himself and even though it hurts him a lot, life still goes on. Some things have changed forever for him, but other things are still pretty much the same.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,007
I'm personally of the opinion that I really think how they handled Hollyhock here was very effective. It is upsetting and frustrating, but that's a bit of the point. You don't need to see what's on the letter or see Hollyhock again, all the pieces for what happened and why it happened are all in the show very clearly even without saying it directly. There's enough context to explain what happened, why it happened and what it means to Bojack, and I think it even makes a lot of sense.

Furthermore, the fact that what Hollyhock does can start a dialect among viewers (I've seen much back-and-forth both here on Era, Reddit and a Discord I'm in on Hollyhock) and left an impression on a lot of people, yet how the show honestly handles it is very quietly, shows to me it was an impacting scene for many (even if some are really upset by it or can't agree at all with what Hollyhock does), and it shows a certain type of thing that does happen in life sometimes. Sometimes people cut you out of their life because you've done shitty things or they just can't be comfortable or close with you anymore, and you get no real closure with them, things just kinda' end. It does happen like that sometimes, and sometimes it's even very clearly the consequence of your choices in the past that leads to that. One of the stronger themes of the back-half of Season 6 in my opinion is that sometimes there's irreparable damage you've done and things you can never get back because of it, and I think what happens with Hollyhock personifies that in a realistic way perfectly.

And it fuels a stronger element of Bojack's own character arc, losing Hollyhock makes him spiral for a bit, but it also makes him more seriously reflect on himself and even though it hurts him a lot, life still goes on. Some things have changed forever for him, but other things are still pretty much the same.
yeah just the fact that so many are talking about it is evidence that this was the best way they could have written it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Ya I'm done arguing about HH, I don't agree at all with the reasons I'm getting. Still way too much projection.

"I'm not invested enough to refute all the point you've laid out but you're wrong. "

K thanks bud. I love how everyone is just projecting onto her as a character and not refuting every single thing I've said for pages. Yes she has seen the worst of him but she has forgiven him time and time again and she loves him. Again, people really would sell someone down the river at the slightest bad thing is what I'm getting out from somebody's responses. No forgiveness, toxic person will always be toxic.

OK I BJ will leave school and help you with your pain addiction,Because my love for you has grown and it's clearly become near unconditional. Actually naw that was a really bad story I heard from that random guy at the party, fuck all that growth we had. Nope. Nope
Nope.



Yea I'm done talking about this. It's still people projecting and inferring how she would be feeling post Pete. When everyone of my arguments has been how the character actions WE SEE in the show from HH are betrayed by the HH we meet in S6 pt ii. Like People are just responding by saying well this happened so she would feel this and this and this. When we get nothing from her at all, no explanation, nothing, not even a glimpse into the letter she wrote.

And I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people defending that storyline think all it would take is a random encounter and story from a stranger. That's such a huge character shift and action amen is barely flushed out or explained at all , and she just turns bitter towards him with little hesitation , then she just decides to cut him off in a dramatic letter and changing her number. I'm not giving the show a pass for this but hey I guess everyone else is.

What are you on about? She doesn't cut him off until after the interview when it comes out that he was grooming young women and she saw that what he did to that teenager at the prom was one of multiple incidents where he got someone drunk and hurt them. Like, if I was Hollyhock, at that point it would be a question of whether him being around her could put her or her friends at risk.
 

Ramala

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,042
Santa Monica, LA
The Hollyhock letter was effective. It wasn't the 'he had it totally wrong' cliche. It was exactly what he thought it was - a bullet he couldn't dodge.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
There is a moment in the later episodes where Bojack is noticeably happy that his TV interview motivated someone enough that they skipped watching the Birthday Dad season finale -- I think that is my favorite joke from the entire season. I love his unending rivalry with Mr PB.
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
Honest question, is Bojack Horseman the first media therapy?

I feel like it hits just like what a well designed therapy session would do and ends on the ultimate lesson (after the biggest confrontation shock too).

You could seldom reach this deeper again in a show ever.
There is a moment in the later episodes where Bojack is noticeably happy that his TV interview motivated someone enough that they skipped watching the Birthday Dad season finale -- I think that is my favorite joke from the entire season. I love his unending rivalry with Mr PB.

"What is your show about?" I literally ran out of breath.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
On that note, does anyone understand what the premise of Birthday Dad actually is? Or is that meant to be the joke? That BD is just completely saccharine and impenetrable.
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,688
Holy shit at episode 15. The show could end at that point but it would be too dark so episode 16 acts like an epilogue.

also, I am tried to avoid this thread before I could saw all episodes, and I did not read it, apologies it seems to be discussed to death, but I don't agree theway Hollyhock was handled. It feels rushed to cut a narrative so the show could end. Agree that it was a major character swift from previous seasons.She started to dodge out Bojack since before the interview. And even knowing the full Bojack past she always loved him. It is the only part of the show end that I didn't like.
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
On that note, does anyone understand what the premise of Birthday Dad actually is? Or is that meant to be the joke? That BD is just completely saccharine and impenetrable.
I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a joke that it makes no sense. The premise we know if a Dad who travels to help kids get the Dad in their lives they need for their birthday, but as they talk about it more and the flashes we see, it's a very weird show.

In the final episode as Bojack and Mr. Peanutbutter are driving, Bojack even directly asks Penutbutter explaining his show, "What is your show even about?", which Peanutbutter never answers directly, which exemplifies that the show is basically nonsensical and explaining it and what happens in the show is just complete nonsense and we're not supposed to really get what it's about. It's a weird show that Mr. Peanutbutter conjured up from another thing he was working on that has become beloved, but it actually makes no sense.
 

Chiaroscuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,688
Wait wait

People aren't theorizing the last episode is all fantasy?

But yeah, this was powerful ending. Well deserved closure for the whole show.

the fact that they let a prisoner go for weekend out from a maximum security prision to attend a fake wedding made me thought about it. And so many dialogues at that episode, specially with Princess Carolyn. But the final dialogue with Diane was so real and powerful.

edited: and the fact the last episode mirror the first one. The cotton candy, the talk in the roof, all memories.
 
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Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,640
The Hollyhock letter was effective. It wasn't the 'he had it totally wrong' cliche. It was exactly what he thought it was - a bullet he couldn't dodge.

Yup, thought it was handled near-perfectly, was happy that at least one character just straight up ended things with Bojack, no contact period. I can't get mad at her whatsoever.
 

Jersey_Tom

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
Yea I'm done talking about this. It's still people projecting and inferring how she would be feeling post Pete. When everyone of my arguments has been how the character actions WE SEE in the show from HH are betrayed by the HH we meet in S6 pt ii. Like People are just responding by saying well this happened so she would feel this and this and this. When we get nothing from her at all, no explanation, nothing, not even a glimpse into the letter she wrote.

And I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people defending that storyline think all it would take is a random encounter and story from a stranger. That's such a huge character shift and action amen is barely flushed out or explained at all , and she just turns bitter towards him with little hesitation , then she just decides to cut him off in a dramatic letter and changing her number. I'm not giving the show a pass for this but hey I guess everyone else is.

Feel like I made plenty of examples of her behavior during the season to help defend my point but alright man. You do you.
 

Axe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,747
United Kingdom
Hollyhock did him a solid, really. She knew enough bad things to take BoJack down herself, but she didn't. She didn't ghost him either since her letters gives him closure, painful though it may be.
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
Hollyhock did him a solid, really. She knew enough bad things to take BoJack down herself, but she didn't. She didn't ghost him either since her letters gives him closure, painful though it may be.
I said this earlier, but I think it's evident Hollyhock didn't hate Bojack, I do think even after everything she did love him. But she also wasn't comfortable with him anymore, could never be, and didn't want a family relationship anymore. I personally read into her not telling him directly or via phone to be because she knew if she tried to do it and heard his voice, she might not go through with it. I think Hollyhock did see he really, truly was a different person than who he was in the past, he was really trying to be a better person, and didn't want to take him down or anything as his sister. She maybe thought he did deserve a second chance, but just one without her in it because she'd never be okay with what he did even if he had changed.
 

fleet

Member
Jan 2, 2019
644
i liked the way hollyhock ended it with bojack. it felt like the writers were portraying the sentiment of "you are not obliged to forgive people who have hurt you just because they are family". hollyhock recognised a person who was not a positive influence in her life and made the decision to move away from them. even though we, the audience, know that bojack is growing and changing, hollyhock doesn't have the same perspective that we do.

also, the very last line of the song in the credits was something similar to "believe me when i said i love you". hollyhock's last face to face conversation with bojack was her telling bojack in a roundabout way that she loved him. i think her letter would have been that she loves bojack as family but she has to grow as her own person and bojack wasn't enabling her to do so. i think that's a good "message" to send out.
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
I liked the Hollyhock part the most out of anything in this season. As someone who lost close friends due to being an asshole, it resonated with me way more than I thought it would, because it feels exactly like that: no joy after reading/hearing about them, and I liked how it was less public than every other thing in the show.

For the past few seasons Bojack Horseman felt like pleasure in psychological masochism, but at least the ending was a little less obvious. Also, I'm glad episode 15 didn't end the season. It would've been really bad for people who suffer from depression and alcoholism and watch the show for a dark type of comfort.

In the end, I'm glad the message of Bojack was overall positive: you don't need to be someone else, you don't need to punish yourself alone to atone for your sins. Maybe it's better to understand what you've done and maybe come clear, or not. Life goes on either way.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
the fact that they let a prisoner go for weekend out from a maximum security prision to attend a fake wedding made me thought about it. And so many dialogues at that episode, specially with Princess Carolyn. But the final dialogue with Diane was so real and powerful.

edited: and the fact the last episode mirror the first one. The cotton candy, the talk in the roof, all memories.
Is he actually in a max security prison? There's no way he'd get that kind of sentence of a b&e even in the first degree.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,060
Finished this last night. What a show, holy cow. Incredibly depressing while having an ever-present sense of humor that I really like.

As an artist, the Dianne writing episode really hit home.
 

TibimusPrime

Member
Nov 26, 2017
836
Finished this yesterday, my god, i don't think i ever felt such a wave of different emotions trough every season. I liked the characters, the quote's, my stories, this is a masterpiece for me.
 
OP
OP
TrueSloth

TrueSloth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,065
"Life's a bitch and then you die"
bojack-horseman-ending-explained.webp


"Sometimes...
Sometimes life's a bitch and you keep living."
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
I'm starting to think that cell phones are actually making us less connected.
 
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apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,043
Watched it all in two sittings. I'm really going to miss this show. The penultimate episode was legitimately haunting.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
I think I was initially upset about the Hollyhock stuff but as I think about it, it does make sense. I wanted closure but you don't always get closure in these situations. I think them not giving us another scene showing what Hollyhock was up to in the end works with that.

As an artist, the Dianne writing episode really hit home.
Same. Diane is the most relatable character on the show for me in multiple ways.
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
I'm really impressed that it feels like it all came together. I know Bojack is a show that is very much about how there's more to be done and there are no endings but the main five characters feel like they found what their next step is and are able to move on.

Have you not seen Undone on Amazon Prime?

The entire first season is out. It's..... basically every surreal episode of BoJack, but as a show. Which is literally how Bob-Waksberg described it at SDCC.
God this show was a trip. It has the gut wrenching character damage and tense arguments or quiet ultimatums but without the pop culture jokes and cartoon animals to blunt the impact. Makes it more difficult to watch than Bojack.
I think I was initially upset about the Hollyhock stuff but as I think about it, it does make sense. I wanted closure but you don't always get closure in these situations. I think them not giving us another scene showing what Hollyhock was up to in the end works with that.
In regards to where they are now and Hollyhock, the epilogue focuses on the first five main characters, Bojack, Mr PB, Diane, PC, and Todd and that gave it a sense of finality to me.
 

Ravelle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,762
Great final couple of episodes although the episodes leading up to the last one didn't feel like they were wrapping up.

One hell of a show though, big shout out to Will Arnett, Allison Brie and all the other cast that put down an amazing performance.
 

Captain C

Member
Oct 27, 2017
763
I absolutely loved the ending, this sealed the deal to ensure I'll always consider this show one of the greatest of all time.

"The View from Halfway Down" is probably the most terrifying depiction of death I've ever seen in media. I'm still thinking about it.

Don't stop dancing, don't stop dancing... 'til the curtain falls.
 

Ahhthe90s

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
BTW, Raphael Bob-Waksberg's book Someone Who Will Love You in All Your Damaged Glory is a fantastic collection of stories. A recommend it for those of you who enjoyed the writing style of Bojack.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,007
if i could just be a bad person for a second here,

part of me kinda hates when Todd is on his high horse LOL with Bojack. like fuck off dude, go be a CEO somewhere.
 

rashbeep

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,457
Some parts were rushed, didn't like how things went with holly, but I ultimately think everyone ended up in the appropriate place.

One of the best shows I've ever seen tbh, quality was always there and it actually knew when to end.

The "I can't tell if you're being smart or stupid" was great
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
One of todd's escapades after this is leading a single mother cult by accident spreading his thoughts of the Hokey Pokey
 

Axe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,747
United Kingdom
Can we take a moment to appreciate just how damn real the dreamy phone call at the end of "The View from Halfway Down" feels. The blunt way Diane vocalises what BoJack fears but also knows to be true, the simple way she affirms his sudden understanding of the situation, the dreamlike "I'm goooood" at the end. Reminds me of the exact way people have manifested in dreams I've had myself over the years that it actually freaks me out a bit.
 

Tophat Jones

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,946
Can we take a moment to appreciate just how damn real the dreamy phone call at the end of "The View from Halfway Down" feels. The blunt way Diane vocalises what BoJack fears but also knows to be true, the simple way she affirms his sudden understanding of the situation, the dreamlike "I'm goooood" at the end. Reminds me of the exact way people have manifested in dreams I've had myself over the years that it actually freaks me out a bit.
Episode has been on my mind since Friday. They really just nailed all the little details, like the one you mention, that turn it into a total mindfuck episode.
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
BTW, Raphael Bob-Waksberg's book Someone Who Will Love You in All Your Damaged Glory is a fantastic collection of stories. A recommend it for those of you who enjoyed the writing style of Bojack.

I found out about this last night and my copy should be here today, super excited for it.
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
I hope they release another album because the music in this season has been spectacular.

That "Why the long face" payoff, perfecto

 

Xpike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,676
if i could just be a bad person for a second here,

part of me kinda hates when Todd is on his high horse LOL with Bojack. like fuck off dude, go be a CEO somewhere.
on one side yeah Todd's entire success in life is because he just knew the right stupid people to back his dumb ideas and also always get into wacky misunderstandings
but on the other side he is actually a good babysitter and he's never been a dick to anyone, he's the guy who everyone trusts to do good
 

Nintenleo

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,209
Italy
Episode 16 moved me a lot more than Ep15, but I have a feeling that Ep15 will float on my mind for a long long time. Some details of the episode linger through my thoughts each now and then. It really goes to show how it was beautifully animated and written without using "shocking" parts. It's very subtle, excluding the last frames.
 
OP
OP
TrueSloth

TrueSloth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,065
For some reason I didn't realize that the song Sarah Lynn sings in episode 15 is a reprise of the song Gina sings in season 5.
 

Vamphuntr

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,301
Really liked the show as a whole. Can't help but feel that if it went longer then Bojack would relapse again once out of jail, Princess Carolyn's marriage would probably crash and burn while Diane would sink in depression again. I kind of like the show never really showed you glamorous happiness and even if most characters are moving ever so slowly forward they are always hit by challenges.

I do feel the conclusion felt kind of rushed though. Diane's story kind of ends with a whimper and I never felt there was a meaningful conclusion outside of you have to settle for something eventually both creatively and romantically. Princess Carolyn's felt kind of the same in the sense that only a workaholic and her own assistant could really love her.

The prison stuff felt like rehab again and only an excuse so they could fast forward all the characters actually finally leaving Bojack for good.
 

Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
Can we take a moment to appreciate just how damn real the dreamy phone call at the end of "The View from Halfway Down" feels. The blunt way Diane vocalises what BoJack fears but also knows to be true, the simple way she affirms his sudden understanding of the situation, the dreamlike "I'm goooood" at the end. Reminds me of the exact way people have manifested in dreams I've had myself over the years that it actually freaks me out a bit.
It's just a perfect representation of true love. It has no meaning and it won't save you from mortality, but it feels so comforting with so little effort. I cried like a baby.