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Oct 27, 2017
5,856
Mount Airy, MD
I felt it was left purposely ambiguous. The next to last episode Bojack's worst possible nightmare, his last way of punishing himself. The finale could be seen as his mind giving him full peace. Yeah, people will say the phone call to Diane was that but his brain probably wanted him to have more. It could also of course, just be a timeskip.

Either way, I still liked it a lot.

But the final episode doesn't really give him "peace". If anything, it felt to me like a clear message in his conversation with Diane: Life's a bitch, and then you live.

There's no grand message, no peace, no perfectly happy fantasy...just more life, and the person you are as a result of everything before.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,039
But the final episode doesn't really give him "peace". If anything, it felt to me like a clear message in his conversation with Diane: Life's a bitch, and then you live.

There's no grand message, no peace, no perfectly happy fantasy...just more life, and the person you are as a result of everything before.
He made "peace" with the fact that people had moved on, more or less. He realized that the time of his life with wacky Todd
adventues and PB escapades, Princess Carolyn babying him, and Diane being there for him was over.

Of course there's more show to go on and there's uncertainty there. We don't know what Bojack is gonna do. There is no peace with that. But he's made peace with the seasons of his life we saw being over and a new one starting.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
You are a rotten little cog, mon frère;
Spun by forces you don't understand!
Living is a bitter, nasty slog mein herr;
Why not sell your sadness as a brand?
Paint your face and brush your mane
and find someplace to cut your pain
To portions we can buy at the mall!
And don't stop dancing --
No you can't stop dancing
'Til the curtains fall!

giphy.gif
 

Farmboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,148
Overall these 16 episodes were a little more low key than I would have liked. But the finale, with
no real talking parts for any character outside of the core five
was superb precisely because it was so low key.

As I saw someone point out elsewhere, those who wanted a more downbeat ending can pretend the show ended with The View From Halfway Down, those who wanted a more upbeat ending can pretend it ending with The Face of Depression.
 

Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
Sitting on it a few days, my personal ranking of the Bojack seasons as of now (may shift when I someday sit down and rewatch the whole thing):

Bojack Season 4 > Season 6 > Season 3 > Season 2 > Season 5 > Season 1

Just my opinion, of course. But even as the "worst", Season 1 is great I still think the whole show is excellent. And some I am tempted to put higher due to individually great episodes, like Season 5 has "Free Churro", which is a top 5 episode for me, but overall I didn't find Season 5's story and character stuff as interesting as Season 3 (and then Season 3 has another Top 5 episode in it in the underwater episode).
 

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
Not sure what the point of episode 15 was when it was literally undone in 10 seconds for the following episode. Felt like just shock value for shock values sake. There's so many glowing reviews for this finale but that montage in 16 really pissed me off and almost ruined the whole season for me.
 

Richiek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,063
Pretty satisfying series ending, but I thought it was a bit rushed and several characters' storylines got the shaft and got resolved way too quickly. It really needed another season to breathe. But all in all, a fitting end to the series and BoJack.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,626
Not sure what the point of episode 15 was when it was literally undone in 10 seconds for the following episode. Felt like just shock value for shock values sake. There's so many glowing reviews for this finale but that montage in 16 really pissed me off and almost ruined the whole season for me.
It wasn't undone in the slightest. BoJack still experienced what he experienced even if he didn't die.

I wasn't shocked by episode 15 just because OMG BOJACK DIED- I was shocked by the delicacy of the character writing, the horror of the visuals, the skill of the performances and the overwhelming, terrifying sense of dread that the episode conveys. None of that goes away just because BoJack survived, and none of it becomes meaningless because of it.
 

pbayne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,365
The last few episodes felt like a bit of a blur but damn what a fantastic television show
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,305
Canada
Episode 16 was a perfect ending to the story!

It's a reminder of how in life there are no sitcom endings.

The last few moments between Bojack and Diane was packed with an infinity of things they wanted to say and share with each other, but them choosing not to. Bojack and Diane don't fully reconcile and become best of buddies again. Their relationship has changed through time, and so have they.

Diane will go back to Houston to her new life and family, and Bojack will finish his time in prison and then find how to live in a world that knows of his past. That's the point, though. Their stories aren't done. They will continue living, even though the time they were a major part in each other's lives may have come to a close. There's no need to go back to that time

Well said and exactly how I feel. People don't really go through "arcs", maybe "dark periods" or "golden ages" but not really big dramatic arcs. Life's a bitch and then you keep living. I think it's still a glass half-full ending, everyone grew up a little and kinda found their own happiness.

Life is a bitch but you need to keep going.

IMO, people that want BJ end up death need to grow up a little and rewatch the show again.

100%, it was getting annoying to read that and how many people thought Diane was gonna die the season before. 🙄
 

diakyu

Member
Dec 15, 2018
17,535
Did not expect to get hit with nostalgia about fusionfall when I entered this thread lmao.

anyways, whoever picks the music for this show has superb taste.
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
Glad I was able to space it out and not watch it all at once. I watched episode 15 and then put like half a day in between it and the finale so I got to really think about it. It's probably one of my favorite episodes of anything ever.

I loved how the finale handled things getting cut short.

I know they wish they could've done more episodes, but being able to frame the ending with Bojack being in prison is really smart. The world moves on without him, and you only get this brief glimpse of what happened because he's allowed out for the day. Tomorrow he'll be in prison again.

Whether they wanted to or not, I'm a sucker for stories that don't wrap up every single thing, because life's like that. People drift apart and you just kind of...forget about them.
 
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Jakenbakin

Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,809
I don't know when or if I'll ever sum up my feelings about this season, or the show in general. Bojack has been my favorite show ever, it's been so emotionally resonant with me for so many years. I just can't believe it's over. I hope I can grow with it.
 

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
I thought the ending was a bit naff tbh

Unrelated jail sentence just seemed a way to make Bojack "pay" for his misdeeds to the viewer without actually having to put the work in. Time skips are ok, but they didn't really focus on anything. Did they even touch on all the main cast?

Wish they'd shown what Hollyhock put in her letter.
 

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
I thought the ending was a bit naff tbh

Unrelated jail sentence just seemed a way to make Bojack "pay" for his misdeeds to the viewer without actually having to put the work in. Time skips are ok, but they didn't really focus on anything. Did they even touch on all the main cast?

Wish they'd shown what Hollyhock put in her letter.
Yeah, that part should have been 3-4 episodes imo
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
Sitting on it a few days, my personal ranking of the Bojack seasons as of now (may shift when I someday sit down and rewatch the whole thing):

Bojack Season 4 > Season 6 > Season 3 > Season 2 > Season 5 > Season 1

Just my opinion, of course. But even as the "worst", Season 1 is great I still think the whole show is excellent. And some I am tempted to put higher due to individually great episodes, like Season 5 has "Free Churro", which is a top 5 episode for me, but overall I didn't find Season 5's story and character stuff as interesting as Season 3 (and then Season 3 has another Top 5 episode in it in the underwater episode).

I think Season 4 did the best job at Bojack's arc of failure/triumph, which is probably why it stands out to me as the best season overall.\\
I thought the ending was a bit naff tbh

Unrelated jail sentence just seemed a way to make Bojack "pay" for his misdeeds to the viewer without actually having to put the work in. Time skips are ok, but they didn't really focus on anything. Did they even touch on all the main cast?

Wish they'd shown what Hollyhock put in her letter.

I kind of agree that the prison sentence seemed a little out of left field. Especially when a recurring element with Bojack's attempts at responsibility—such as Diane's speech to him at the end of Season 5—is that no one was ever going to hold him accountable the way he wanted in his self-loathing. Leaving him out and seeing how he goes from being a pariah to being at peace with himself, instead of sucked down by his worst nature to be liked, would IMO have been stronger. Leave him teaching community theater in some random place and it's basically the prison scene.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
Honestly I just thought of it as
Bojack doesn't really have any hope wrt escaping his cycle, and that he will just find a new rock to bottom out on.
 

newgamewhodis

Member
Oct 28, 2017
820
Brooklyn
I thought the ending was a bit naff tbh

Unrelated jail sentence just seemed a way to make Bojack "pay" for his misdeeds to the viewer without actually having to put the work in. Time skips are ok, but they didn't really focus on anything. Did they even touch on all the main cast?

Wish they'd shown what Hollyhock put in her letter.
I'm really happy they didn't show Hollyhock's letter because you know what it said. It's a testament to the writing that you can see his reaction, and already know enough about Hollyhock's character to know that she politely but directly cut him out. Not everyone has to forgive Bojack. That's okay.

This show has ruined me many times since it came out.

The penultimate episode was an incredible standout, but I am relieved that they didn't take that ending because it would have seemed both obvious and cruel.

The ending we got wasn't exactly satisfying for Bojack, but it was for those who had been caught in his whirlwind of abuse and self-pity. I thought this was a really wonderful exploration of cancelling as a season. How you can love someone but still cut them out, how abusers often think of themselves as victims or are unable to recognize their own power, how cancellation can make someone feel even more alienated than before, and even how cancelling can isolate someone so much that they are seduced by the "anti-SJW/anti-PC" crowd. Cancelling has been on my mind a lot the past year, what with the Night in the Woods developments, and the drama surrounding Contrapoints.

I think what I love most about this show is that it shows the ugly side of people, but despite that never shies away from their humanity. It's not a story of atonement, but it does show how people are endlessly complex.
 

GeoGonzo

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,328
Madrid, Spain
I personally love how they handled Hollyhock and the letter. Bojack instantly knew what it was and sometimes things are exactly what they look like. The exact words she used aren't important.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
Gotta say one of my favorite elements was

Bojack's show being re-edited to remove any trace of him. It's by far the biggest blow to his legacy.
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Im still laughing at how Pickles was thrownaway in a quiet line as Mr PB is off screen lol it's so fitting. She was easily the most troubling relationship decision Mr PB made, very childlike , it gets creepier the more you think about it

Would still love to read a POV or analysis NOT on how Hollycock's decision Of " cut a toxic person out of her life" is a just/appropriate/understandable one in general ( which it is)... but how that action makes sense for her character. For a show that usually does so much better, it was for me an unearned,rushed inciting incident.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
Im still laughing at how Pickles was thrownaway in a quiet line as Mr PB is off screen lol it's so fitting. She was easily the most troubling relationship decision Mr PB made, very childlike , it gets creepier the more you think about it

Would still love to read a POV or analysis NOT on how Hollycock's decision Of " cut a toxic person out of her life" is a just/appropriate/understandable one in general ( which it is)... but how that action makes sense for her character. For a show that usually does so much better, it was for me an unearned,rushed inciting incident.

I think it would ultimately be a totally earned choice if we were actually seeing how Hollyhock made it. But we don't really get anything from her perspective in the season.

Feels a bit like a cheap trick to get Bojack to where they want to go and a disservice to the importance the character had in the show to just drop her.
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
11,215
I think it would ultimately be a totally earned choice if we were actually seeing how Hollyhock made it. But we don't really get anything from her perspective in the season.

Feels a bit like a cheap trick to get Bojack to where they want to go and a disservice to the importance the character had in the show to just drop her.

I normally wouldn't harp on something so much but since the first half of season 6 dropped Ive watched the show maybe four times all the way through ( yay overlapping on the elliptical) And every single episode with Hollyhock and everything they've gone through together is very much fresh in my mind.

There are so many character traits she is shown to possess that are the complete opposite of what she did, and we are shown them over and over. I'm glad someone sees where I'm coming from.

Again, not saying that cutting a toxic person out of your life in such a way is wrong , saying that she would not do that.

At the very least she would have confronted Bojack directly about what Pete said. Unless she decided to just take the word of a random person she just met at a party remembering something from a night in high school Vs. the relationship she has actively built with someone she says she loves...
And then decided to stay silent and grow more embittered about it until life gave her an out to cut that relationship off because that makes sense for Someone weve seen over and over to be mature, proactive, empathetic...

Ugh I hate it
 

someday

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,453
I actually think the ending was good for Bojack as well.
It seemed throughout the last season or so, Bojack was struck by this idea that he was a better person and he deserved a clean slate since he had now changed. But until the last few episodes he actually hadn't changed at all. Even being sober hadn't really changed him.

The scene where he is listing the worst things he's done shows that he hasn't actually admitted to the horrible things he's responsible for, even to himself. We see how the other characters have added things he specifically did to them, since he was ignoring them. Then the big truth comes out and in this scene we see the gang finally see through it all. He still doesn't get it and thinks he can Bojack his way out of it. It's not until the second interview where all of his awful shit is exposed to the entire world, and he finally actually starts paying for it personally.

This sounds like I wanted retribution from Bojack but I just think he finally has the clean slate he's been wanting. His sins are exposed to the world and he is still Bojack. He lost some people but he's the most honest and bare he's been in this series and finally has the rest of his life to live. He still has acting, there's teaching, he's still popular with the public, and he's still rich.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
I normally wouldn't harp on something so much but since the first half of season 6 dropped Ive watched the show maybe four times all the way through ( yay overlapping on the elliptical) And every single episode with Hollyhock and everything they've gone through together is very much fresh in my mind.

There are so many character traits she is shown to possess that are the complete opposite of what she did, and we are shown them over and over. I'm glad someone sees where I'm coming from.

Again, not saying that cutting a toxic person out of your life in such a way is wrong , saying that she would not do that.

At the very least she would have confronted Bojack directly about what Pete said. Unless she decided to just take the word of a random person she just met at a party remembering something from a night in high school Vs. the relationship she has actively built with someone she says she loves...
And then decided to stay silent and grow more embittered about it until life gave her an out to cut that relationship off because that makes sense for Someone weve seen over and over to be mature, proactive, empathetic...

Ugh I hate it

The other part that bothers me about it is that Hollyhock actually understands boundaries and what she wanted out of the relationship. Right out the gate, when she thought he was her father, she said, "I'm not looking for (another) dad." In some ways it makes more sense for her to have a more distant relationship like the other main characters, and for them to instead be the ones who decided to cut him out completely.
 

RecRoulette

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,044
Been reading stuff about the season and the attention to detail always impresses

Bojack brought a hydrangea to the dinner party because he couldn't bring Hollyhock
 

Jersey_Tom

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
The other part that bothers me about it is that Hollyhock actually understands boundaries and what she wanted out of the relationship. Right out the gate, when she thought he was her father, she said, "I'm not looking for (another) dad." In some ways it makes more sense for her to have a more distant relationship like the other main characters, and for them to instead be the ones who decided to cut him out completely.

Hollyhock wanted to confront Bojack about what she was told but couldn't at the time because he was clearly in need and her compassion overcame her reason.

That letter he got from her was sent after his interviews were completed and he sold his home to help pay off his settlement with the Lynne family. I have to look back because I don't remember if we see a scene of her watching the interview, but I think it could be implied that she got the answers she was looking for and decided to cut him out of her life.

She was already attempting to avoid him as best she could by taking up rugby to work out her issues, then quitting the team to stay away from Bojack. It's also clear I think that she didn't want to go to the rehearsal because she didn't want to see him. But he refused to leave her alone. Even after he left Connecticut, he continued to badger her with messages that she clearly was screening and didn't want to respond. Finally it appeared she finally had the courage to write him a letter expressing what she was doing as opposed to just hoping he'd go away on his own.

It was a bit of growth on her part I think, because it also appears throughout the series she attempts to avoid having the tough conversation. Like Bojack she can be spontaneous and rush to decisions or a distraction, but also like him she avoids having to be introspective. For her to write that letter to express that I think was an important change, albeit one we don't see her in person making or what her words to Bojack were. But as mentioned, I don't think it's important to know because it was clear what she was trying to do the whole time, just without being direct about it.
 

someday

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,453
I normally wouldn't harp on something so much but since the first half of season 6 dropped Ive watched the show maybe four times all the way through ( yay overlapping on the elliptical) And every single episode with Hollyhock and everything they've gone through together is very much fresh in my mind.

There are so many character traits she is shown to possess that are the complete opposite of what she did, and we are shown them over and over. I'm glad someone sees where I'm coming from.

Again, not saying that cutting a toxic person out of your life in such a way is wrong , saying that she would not do that.

At the very least she would have confronted Bojack directly about what Pete said. Unless she decided to just take the word of a random person she just met at a party remembering something from a night in high school Vs. the relationship she has actively built with someone she says she loves...
And then decided to stay silent and grow more embittered about it until life gave her an out to cut that relationship off because that makes sense for Someone weve seen over and over to be mature, proactive, empathetic...

Ugh I hate it
I look at it differently but I haven't done the re-watches you have. I'm a woman and if I put myself in Hollyhock's shoes I can understand what she did. I've had older male relatives who I avoided because they were handsy with us young girls (I'm talking uncles, cousins, etc).

Think about hearing that stuff from Pete and you're a teenage girl. Bojack is more than twice her age. It's creepy. It's gross. It's wrong on so many levels. He's not just her long lost brother, he's a 50 year old alcoholic, drug addict, and he's famous and has a history of being destructive. She's a young girl with a good head on her shoulders, 7 or 8 strong male role models, and a future. From her perspective, he's different now and she probably wouldn't have gotten close to him in the first place had she known.

Talking to Bojack isn't going to fix anything for her, really. It might help him, sure, but for her it's just an icky conversation that she would never want to have in the first place. She tried to be polite but he bulldozed his way into her life even more, thinking he was doing the right thing. She's strong enough to write the letter and cut him out of her life. She's even stronger when she changes the number.

I know it's not what you want to hear but this is just my perspective. Not saying you're wrong at all or that I'm correct. It's just a different way of looking at the characters.
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
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Apr 12, 2018
11,215
I look at it differently but I haven't done the re-watches you have. I'm a woman and if I put myself in Hollyhock's shoes I can understand what she did. I've had older male relatives who I avoided because they were handsy with us young girls (I'm talking uncles, cousins, etc).

Think about hearing that stuff from Pete and you're a teenage girl. Bojack is more than twice her age. It's creepy. It's gross. It's wrong on so many levels. He's not just her long lost brother, he's a 50 year old alcoholic, drug addict, and he's famous and has a history of being destructive. She's a young girl with a good head on her shoulders, 7 or 8 strong male role models, and a future. From her perspective, he's different now and she probably wouldn't have gotten close to him in the first place had she known.

Talking to Bojack isn't going to fix anything for her, really. It might help him, sure, but for her it's just an icky conversation that she would never want to have in the first place. She tried to be polite but he bulldozed his way into her life even more, thinking he was doing the right thing. She's strong enough to write the letter and cut him out of her life. She's even stronger when she changes the number.

I know it's not what you want to hear but this is just my perspective. Not saying you're wrong at all or that I'm correct. It's just a different way of looking at the characters.

If the relationship had continued normally after Pete and then the second interview comes out and then she cuts him off just to give them some space for a while, that would be completely earned and understandable.

Also when I say she didn't confront him at all, I am talking about the immediate aftermath of the Pete conversation. I'm supposed to believe she's just taking the word of some random guy , then not attempting at all to corroborate the story?
If some random person I have never met in my entire life found me at a Random gathering and ended my night by telling me something horrible about a family member… I would just not ever say anything? I'm supposed to believe that person? Im going to just let such a wild story from a stranger negatively affect a relationship I have with someone I love without any sort of conversation with my family member ? It's ridiculous

When we see them at college she is already suspect of him , distant and drops hints as to why. Yet she never confronts him directly. Again, she becomes this way after an accusation from a stranger, not a nationally televised interview where he admits to a bunch of horrible misdeeds. Again, an action that is completely out of character for someone who is shown never to shy away from something uncomfortable
ex/ As a teenager she flies across the country and goes to knock on the doors of random women asking if they're her mother

/ Calls a Hollywood agency to directly confront a Movie Star about him possibly being her father.


I 100% see where you're coming from and I think the show wants us to just look along these lines, because it's very logical and understandable. I appreciate the point of view and personal anecdote, thank you. It is especially nice to hear a Woman's perspective. I really don't want people thinking I don't understand why someone would make such a decision.

I just think people are a ascribing their own personal character traits and points of view onto what she did. Trust me I would not be going on like this if I felt her choice was justifiable by the character work they had done with her up until that point.
 
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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
Agar25

I feel like your comparing apples and oranges there. Hollyhock was looking for some kind of self-fulfillment with regards to her parent quest. And she had no reason to suspect that she came from a complete trashfire mess of a family while doing so.

With this, it's more of a matter of "How much do I trust Bojack now knowing these things?" You could argue that this was a random stranger who might be lying, but realistically speaking, the way pete acted and said this things, with no real gain to be had for himself, it was obvious he was saying what he was saying out of genuine belief. He was inaccurate in some stuff, but the important things (Bojack being the responsible adult who fucked up) are right and Bojack wouldn't be able to disprove the tiny details he got wrong anyway. But just because she is willing to find her family in another state, it isn't the same thing as talking to her potentially dangerous and abusive brother.

And ultimately, it's kind of a moot point. We basically know what would happen. He'd just do what he always does and have his "I'm so sad and sorry" song and dance and beg Hollyhock's forgiveness and she'd be super uncomfortable with it.

All that said, I do agree that I wish Hollyhock had talked to him about it. Not because I think it'd have made a real difference, but it'd be a bit more honest and maybe fair. Like, Bojack kept trying to push into Hollyhock's life because he was trying to be supportive and that she was retreating into herself. He might have given her the space she needed to figure things out more productively if he just knew what was really going through her head and what she judged him for.
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
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Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Agar25

I feel like your comparing apples and oranges there. Hollyhock was looking for some kind of self-fulfillment with regards to her parent quest. And she had no reason to suspect that she came from a complete trashfire mess of a family while doing so.

With this, it's more of a matter of "How much do I trust Bojack now knowing these things?" You could argue that this was a random stranger who might be lying, but realistically speaking, the way pete acted and said this things, with no real gain to be had for himself, it was obvious he was saying what he was saying out of genuine belief. He was inaccurate in some stuff, but the important things (Bojack being the responsible adult who fucked up) are right and Bojack wouldn't be able to disprove the tiny details he got wrong anyway. But just because she is willing to find her family in another state, it isn't the same thing as talking to her potentially dangerous and abusive brother.

And ultimately, it's kind of a moot point. We basically know what would happen. He'd just do what he always does and have his "I'm so sad and sorry" song and dance and beg Hollyhock's forgiveness and she'd be super uncomfortable with it.

All that said, I do agree that I wish Hollyhock had talked to him about it. Not because I think it'd have made a real difference, but it'd be a bit more honest and maybe fair. Like, Bojack kept trying to push into Hollyhock's life because he was trying to be supportive and that she was retreating into herself. He might have given her the space she needed to figure things out more productively if he just knew what was really going through her head and what she judged him for.

Agree to disagree, you're not going to get me to buy that a random person at a party is going to completely alter how she views someone she loves, without her saying anything. All because he's coming off as "Genuine" ? Really? How many people in that same situation would immediately believe that person? Then not say anything?

Where they last left it in S5+6 pt.1 she sees BoJack as a damaged, vulnerable person who she loves and would drop everything for if he asked. She does NOT see him as a dangerous or abusive brother at all that she suddenly would be afraid to confront , unless you want me to buy that, again, all it takes is one random strangers story to completely nullify the loving relationship they've built.

People are responding to me by inferring what she's thinking or projecting their own attitudes onto hers while I am giving example after example of the character actions written in the show that support my belief. It is not me creating some sort of head canon, it is me laying out the HH character and saying ummmmm wait who is this person at the beginning of S6 pt ii, where do they earn her making/not making these character choices ?

So also think it's fair to say " huh" on how she behaves in S6 ptII when they show over multiple Seasons how HH capably and directly confronts all of the turbulences thrown at her. Suddenly this massive revelation occurs and all that we've learned about how she behaves under adversity is suddenly out the window? Because she is suddenly afraid to confront her brother whom she loves because after a single conversation with a stranger she now views him as dangerous? Doesn't work for me


Again, agree to disagree, it feels rushed in service of the plot. Another bad thing needs to happen to Bojack because it has to and the one thing he has left, the most important thing he has left is HH so that's what has to get taken away
 
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someday

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,453
I think hearing that Bojack got drunk with a bunch of high schoolers and then dumped one of them off in an ER driveway as she was possibly dying changed her perspective immediately. What Pete said was believable, and that is enough. It's a fundamental shift in how she views Bojack and it's realistic to me. He's not just a drunk, he's dangerous and possibly a predator. It also fits with the finale where you see the women in his life have either left him or side-lined him while the men are more open to friendship.
 

Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,507
There's no reason for Hollyhock to think that Pete was lying since he wouldn't even tell her the story or Bojack's involvement in it until he was prodded, and she knows Bojack is not the best guy. She's even sort of worried it is Bojack when she asks him twice.
 

Deleted member 42055

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Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Y'all would really just sell out a family member over a strangers story at a party without confronting them first? Wow. Ok then. Again, there is absolutely nothing in the show that supports this, everyone is just putting their own feelings onto her actions. It's "believable", it's " genuine". This is not you at the party, it's HH, and the character we met up until that point is not someone that would do the things she does after hearing that story

By the way, I am totally not arguing just for the sake of arguing. This is easily the most I've ever written about anything on this site. It is one of my top top favorite shows of all time but this element of its last hurrah left a really bad taste. So I'm just trying to work through that, I appreciate the responses*

*It's super bowl Sunday so I'm out for a while but if anyone would like to give me any type of POV that is supported by what the show has shown us about HH as a character and not more variations on , "These are my feelings/inferences and how I would personally react to such a revelation " Im more than happy to respond later. Again, I don't mean that in a negative way, I'm just using everything I've learned ( that I think ive learned 😅) in my rewatches of the show to support where I'm coming from. I WISH so bad that they had (for me) Earned that relationship disintegration, and that I was moved into sadness versus bafflement when she cuts him off.
 
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Baccus

Banned
Dec 4, 2018
5,307
They shat the bed with Hollyhock. What a shame. It was this close to be a perfect finale for a perfect show.
 

Jersey_Tom

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
Y'all would really just sell out a family member over a strangers story at a party without confronting them first? Wow. Ok then. Again, there is absolutely nothing in the show that supports this, everyone is just putting their own feelings onto her actions. It's "believable", it's " genuine". This is not you at the party, it's HH, and the character we met up until that point is not someone that would do the things she does after hearing that story

By the way, I am totally not arguing just for the sake of arguing. This is easily the most I've ever written about anything on this site. It is one of my top top favorite shows of all time but this element of its last hurrah left a really bad taste. So I'm just trying to work through that, I appreciate the responses

Remember, Bojack is still essentially a stranger to her. She doesn't really know Bojack.

Even what she does know isn't flattering. This is a guy who told her that he wants to find some way for Beatrice to remember him solely so he can say "Fuck you, Mom." The guy who was going to go out and get milk for his guests but instead spends the whole day out getting drunk. A man who despite years of neglect and abuse from his now dying mother who has dementia invites her into his home, then starts tossing a baby doll around his home because she's senile and doesn't recognize him and then throws that doll over a deck before looking back at his sobbing mother with pride. A man who, though not his fault directly, invited her into his home which eventually led to her accidentally overdosed on amphetamines by his mother.

The latter of which causes her trauma where she had trouble even being in the house and seeing prescription pills. Then upon seeing Bojack's pain meds, flushes them down a toilet causing a lot of confusion and anger on Bojack's part. Throughout all this she still wants to give Bojack the benefit of the doubt and at least try to form a relationship with him, going as far as to say she loves him. But then she meets Peter who confirms to her all of her worst fears about Bojack, combined with her own bad experiences with him.

This isn't just one guy telling her a story. She has plenty of bad experiences to fall back on to help inform her of the guy Bojack is and for the most part is only family to her insomuch as they share the same dad. She has time to reflect on the fact that when she's around him, she's either getting her feelings hurt, ending up in the hospital, or dealing with his self-destructive tendencies. Hearing a story of how he ditched Peter and his girlfriend in the ER after bringing booze to a prom he took them all to, she has to realize that Bojack isn't the father/brother she wants him to be and that she very likely is putting herself in danger by even being around him. She wanted to confirm this herself by asking him but couldn't, opting instead to avoid him and hope he went away. The one thing she is able to confess to him is she's upset that he came to her college to teach without asking her and that she wants them to have their own things and not be around each other so often, despite the fact that previously they'd talk on the phone every Sunday. Then comes the interview where he gets extremely defensive and tries to make it seem like he had no power over the situation to absolve himself of any guilt. Bojack does what he always does, try to find something else to blame except himself. That likely was the final straw with the story confirmed and his inability in the moment to take any sort of responsibility, despite how much he "changed."
 
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Buttchin-n-Bones

Actually knows the TOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,628
Y'all would really just sell out a family member over a strangers story at a party without confronting them first? Wow. Ok then. Again, there is absolutely nothing in the show that supports this, everyone is just putting their own feelings onto her actions. It's "believable", it's " genuine". This is not you at the party, it's HH, and the character we met up until that point is not someone that would do the things she does after hearing that story

By the way, I am totally not arguing just for the sake of arguing. This is easily the most I've ever written about anything on this site. It is one of my top top favorite shows of all time but this element of its last hurrah left a really bad taste. So I'm just trying to work through that, I appreciate the responses*

*It's super bowl Sunday so I'm out for a while but if anyone would like to give me any type of POV that is supported by what the show has shown us about HH as a character and not more variations on , "These are my feelings/inferences and how I would personally react to such a revelation " Im more than happy to respond later. Again, I don't mean that in a negative way, I'm just using everything I've learned ( that I think ive learned 😅) in my rewatches of the show to support where I'm coming from. I WISH so bad that they had (for me) Earned that relationship disintegration, and that I was moved into sadness versus bafflement when she cuts him off.
I'm not invested enough to address all of the points you've made, but you're harping too much on the "family member" argument.

Hollyhock is already an adult with a healthy familial relationship by the time she even meets Bojack. Blood means nothing to her aside from a compelling desire to know her birth parents/family; she's not looking to fill a hole in her life. If she already knows Bojack is kind of a damaged person, but has not witnessed or heard of any predatory behaviours from him, it'd be enough to make her wary but still willing to be his half-sister. As you already pointed out, she sets those clear boundaries for herself. But up until S6, the most dangerous thing Bojack has done with Hollyhock is try to get her to help him steal his meds - which is his damage, but without any danger for people other than himself. That being said... she has direct experience with Horseman family members being dangerous to other people from Beatrice drugging her.

Once she hears Pete's story, her perception of Bojack changes. Hollyhock knows Bojack has all sorts of issues, but she's gotten no indication he's a harm to anyone but himself (and his mom, but HH knows why Bojack feels so much hatred for her). Now she knows otherwise, can find a link between Beatrice's and Bojack's behaviour, and has no ties to this dangerous person other than a blood relation that means very, very little to her. So she cuts him out. The maturity and willingness to be direct comes through the long, clearly heartfelt letter, which allows her to be directly communicative as she normally is without putting her into a situation where she might be provoking Bojack into being aggressive towards her in some way. We know Bojack probably wouldn't do anything to her... but she doesn't have that confidence anymore.

It's disappointing that we didn't get to see any on-screen confrontation, but this ain't that much of a character swerve as you're making it out to be.
 

Tiamant

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,361
I don't know if I'm late to this but aren't the final minutes of ep 15 a straight up reference to the final act of "All that Jazz?"

Herb's intro feels completely like that, and the ending conversation with Diane until the heartbeat stops is very reminiscent of the last 5 seconds of the movie. For reference, here is what I'm referring to:

 

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
16 kind of rubbed me the wrong way, there was too much of a tonal mismatch between the end of 15 and the start of 16. I was crying at the end of 15 and then the start of 16 was... just not it.

I'm posting the poem from 15 in a spoiler below, it may have been the best scene in the entire show:

I can't stop thinking about this episode, and in particular that scene
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,305
Canada
They shat the bed with Hollyhock. What a shame. It was this close to be a perfect finale for a perfect show.

Given the show had... Really no big ending gut-punch I kinda admire that this is the only big thread to go unresolved.

But BoJack is alive and intends to live and change or whatever, maybe one day, someday, they'll be able to meet one day and change that relationship too.
 

Keasar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,724
Umeå, Sweden
Well.

That was a roller coaster of emotions.

Definetly one of my all-time favorite shows ever made.

"Life's a bitch and then you keep living."
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Ya I'm done arguing about HH, I don't agree at all with the reasons I'm getting. Still way too much projection.
I'm not invested enough to address all of the points you've made, but you're harping too much on the "family member" argument.

Hollyhock is already an adult with a healthy familial relationship by the time she even meets Bojack. Blood means nothing to her aside from a compelling desire to know her birth parents/family; she's not looking to fill a hole in her life. If she already knows Bojack is kind of a damaged person, but has not witnessed or heard of any predatory behaviours from him, it'd be enough to make her wary but still willing to be his half-sister. As you already pointed out, she sets those clear boundaries for herself. But up until S6, the most dangerous thing Bojack has done with Hollyhock is try to get her to help him steal his meds - which is his damage, but without any danger for people other than himself. That being said... she has direct experience with Horseman family members being dangerous to other people from Beatrice drugging her.

Once she hears Pete's story, her perception of Bojack changes. Hollyhock knows Bojack has all sorts of issues, but she's gotten no indication he's a harm to anyone but himself (and his mom, but HH knows why Bojack feels so much hatred for her). Now she knows otherwise, can find a link between Beatrice's and Bojack's behaviour, and has no ties to this dangerous person other than a blood relation that means very, very little to her. So she cuts him out. The maturity and willingness to be direct comes through the long, clearly heartfelt letter, which allows her to be directly communicative as she normally is without putting her into a situation where she might be provoking Bojack into being aggressive towards her in some way. We know Bojack probably wouldn't do anything to her... but she doesn't have that confidence anymore.

It's disappointing that we didn't get to see any on-screen confrontation, but this ain't that much of a character swerve as you're making it out to be.

"I'm not invested enough to refute all the point you've laid out but you're wrong. "

K thanks bud. I love how everyone is just projecting onto her as a character and not refuting every single thing I've said for pages. Yes she has seen the worst of him but she has forgiven him time and time again and she loves him. Again, people really would sell someone down the river at the slightest bad thing is what I'm getting out from somebody's responses. No forgiveness, toxic person will always be toxic.

OK I BJ will leave school and help you with your pain addiction,Because my love for you has grown and it's clearly become near unconditional. Actually naw that was a really bad story I heard from that random guy at the party, fuck all that growth we had. Nope. Nope
Nope.

Remember, Bojack is still essentially a stranger to her. She doesn't really know Bojack.

Even what she does know isn't flattering. This is a guy who told her that he wants to find some way for Beatrice to remember him solely so he can say "Fuck you, Mom." The guy who was going to go out and get milk for his guests but instead spends the whole day out getting drunk. A man who despite years of neglect and abuse from his now dying mother who has dementia invites her into his home, then starts tossing a baby doll around his home because she's senile and doesn't recognize him and then throws that doll over a deck before looking back at his sobbing mother with pride. A man who, though not his fault directly, invited her into his home which eventually led to her accidentally overdosed on amphetamines by his mother.

The latter of which causes her trauma where she had trouble even being in the house and seeing prescription pills. Then upon seeing Bojack's pain meds, flushes them down a toilet causing a lot of confusion and anger on Bojack's part. Throughout all this she still wants to give Bojack the benefit of the doubt and at least try to form a relationship with him, going as far as to say she loves him. But then she meets Peter who confirms to her all of her worst fears about Bojack, combined with her own bad experiences with him.

This isn't just one guy telling her a story. She has plenty of bad experiences to fall back on to help inform her of the guy Bojack is and for the most part is only family to her insomuch as they share the same dad. She has time to reflect on the fact that when she's around him, she's either getting her feelings hurt, ending up in the hospital, or dealing with his self-destructive tendencies. Hearing a story of how he ditched Peter and his girlfriend in the ER after bringing booze to a prom he took them all to, she has to realize that Bojack isn't the father/brother she wants him to be and that she very likely is putting herself in danger by even being around him. She wanted to confirm this herself by asking him but couldn't, opting instead to avoid him and hope he went away. The one thing she is able to confess to him is she's upset that he came to her college to teach without asking her and that she wants them to have their own things and not be around each other so often, despite the fact that previously they'd talk on the phone every Sunday. Then comes the interview where he gets extremely defensive and tries to make it seem like he had no power over the situation to absolve himself of any guilt. Bojack does what he always does, try to find something else to blame except himself. That likely was the final straw with the story confirmed and his inability in the moment to take any sort of responsibility, despite how much he "changed."

Yea I'm done talking about this. It's still people projecting and inferring how she would be feeling post Pete. When everyone of my arguments has been how the character actions WE SEE in the show from HH are betrayed by the HH we meet in S6 pt ii. Like People are just responding by saying well this happened so she would feel this and this and this. When we get nothing from her at all, no explanation, nothing, not even a glimpse into the letter she wrote.

And I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people defending that storyline think all it would take is a random encounter and story from a stranger. That's such a huge character shift and action amen is barely flushed out or explained at all , and she just turns bitter towards him with little hesitation , then she just decides to cut him off in a dramatic letter and changing her number. I'm not giving the show a pass for this but hey I guess everyone else is.