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Oct 27, 2017
42,700
Can you point to reviews or impressions of those films from people new to Star Wars to support your argument?
I had friends who went and didn't fully understand everything (mainly the references), but understood the movies. I guess they aren't professional reviewers or twitter impressions though

As a stand-alone film, it can't stand-alone. It wedges in a major fan-favorite character without lead-in and also lacks any resolution for doing so since the film bombed and likely won't ever bother tying up this loose end (which is, again, for a character who was already tied up nicely in the TV series).
But when you think about it, it's effectively the same regardless of if you've just seen Episode 1 (my case), have also watched the TV show that featured him (I haven't, but I vaguely read about it). You'll be varying levels of surprised/excited depending on how much you've seen, but knowing him doesn't change anything about your understanding of the movie as the assumption was that his importance would be revealed later. Just like Thanos' first appearance. We'd seen some hints of the infinity stones before then, and comic fans would be able to put more things together, but for everyone else he was just a character that was assumed to be important in a lter movie
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
Marvel's worlds expand with each movie made. The Star Wars films feel like the universe is shrinking as we move on. It's so mired in nostalgia too.

I think, ultimately, there's just so many options for entertainment now than there were back in the day.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,660
Costa Rica
To a degree, yes... but both movies have MAJOR moments that are dedicated to characters that are not directly tied to any of the major principle characters. As a FAN, yes, it was nice to see some old familiar faces, but Tarkin wasn't necessary when we already had ANOTHER major general in the film doing the same role, Leia's cameo at the end was connective tissue to A New Hope but was very hamfisted, and the "best scene" involves Darth Vader slaughtering the Rebels... but none of the three characters I mentioned ever speak to or have any connection to the principle cast of Rogue One's narrative. The cameos are major, but OUTSIDE of the main story.

Same for Solo. It's enjoyable on its own, sure, but then you have a giant big reveal of Darth Maul, and that reveal is problematic because... what's the point? It goes nowhere, it doesn't tie into Han Solo himself whatsoever, and it exists 100% outside of Han's narrative, but it gets this big, major focus. It's a "tease" for... what? More Darth Maul? The dude was just killed in the TV show. His arc is over. It's just fanservice and the movie comes to a screeching halt for his appearance where he even activates his lightsaber for NO REASON just to go "remember this? He has this. You liked this once, right?"
tumblr_petc4rNINE1qh1qauo3_500.gif


Granted, I LIKE Maul. I'm happy to see more of him. But I also know it's not an organic part of Solo in any way, shape, or form. Even his connection to Qi'ra is unexplored, weird to fit back into overall canon, and her "dark twist" was probably meant for a Solo sequel we'll never get. As a stand-alone film, it can't stand-alone. It wedges in a major fan-favorite character without lead-in and also lacks any resolution for doing so since the film bombed and likely won't ever bother tying up this loose end (which is, again, for a character who was already tied up nicely in the TV series).

I agree, and this coming from someone whose favorite part of the film was the Maul reveal
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
100% this. And you can see this with other long-running properties too.

Look at Batman. Even if you only focus on the movies, you've got the campy Burton & Shumacher films, the intense and dramatic Nolan movies, whatever Zack Snyder tried to do, and we're about to get something different from all of those.

Meanwhile, Star Wars is always Star Wars. There's never been a time when someone said "Why don't we redo Star Wars in a different style or tone?" And even when they try to change the tone up a little, whatever they make is still stuck being in the same universe as all of the other properties. Nothing gets to act on its own. Nothing gets room to breath. It all needs to build up the main Star Wars story, and so it isn't allowed to be different. And that makes it boring for a ton of people.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
But when you think about it, it's effectively the same regardless of if you've just seen Episode 1 (my case), have also watched the TV show that featured him (I haven't, but I vaguely read about it). You'll be varying levels of surprised/excited depending on how much you've seen, but knowing him doesn't change anything about your understanding of the movie as the assumption was that his importance would be revealed later. Just like Thanos' first appearance. We'd seen some hints of the infinity stones before then, and comic fans would be able to put more things together, but for everyone else he was just a character that was assumed to be important in a lter movie
I think Thanos is a tad different, because with the Thanos tease in Avengers, none of it detracts from the film proper. It never slows the movie to a standstill to have Thanos, without introduction, just walk-in mid-movie, and depart without explanation. It's a post-credit's scene (Maul would've been a better post-credits teaser too, but it's not; it's right in the crux of the finale).

And, well, if they never did Thanos again, it STILL would've been fine since Thanos wasn't making any plans at the time within that movie's narrative like Maul was in Solo. He could've been the equivalent of the Adam Warlock teaser from Guardians 2 (remember that?) or The Leader tease from Incredible Hulk (nobody remembers that).

And, again, Thanos's story at that point hadn't been explored. Maul's story in-universe is over. He's had a complete character arc and a fitting death. It's hard to compare that to a brand-new introduction like Thanos or Nick Fury in Iron Man 1, which were clean slates.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,786
United Kingdom
Yes, that was a bad CGI obviously but who cares? The real reason that part is stupid is Palp taking down Fisto, Kolar and Tiin all at once with quick stabs. The actual duel with Mace and Palp was excellent though and I still stand by that the duels in Ep 3 were great overall and very satisfying fights.

Lol, that wasn't your original post. Guess you're of the George Lucas school of creation. :P

Frankly, I don't agree. In the original trilogy Palpatine is above lightsabers, he refers to them disdainfully, as if they're mere toys, because he's just that powerful.

In the PT he's given a lightsaber, why precisely? Because everyone evil is called Darth and carries a red lightsaber. It actually removes from Palpatine. ROTS actually makes him less mysterious and more of a generic villain of the week.
 

JeTmAn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,825
My 2 cents - don't want to start a debate here, as I know the ST has some genuine fans here. I'm not one of them.
The two mainline Disney SW movies were awful. If not for the name attached, they'd be standing proudly next to Jupiter Ascending. They're a perfect storm of being bad on their own and being bad as a continuation of a franchise.


- both are glorified remakes (TLJ less so, as it mixes ESB, RotJ and 'subverting expectations') with rehashed plots
- nostalgia pandering without adding anything of substance
- TFA wants to simultaneously be a reboot and appeal to old fans, ends up dishonoring legacy characters and undercooking the new ones
- no regard for the mythos and worldbuilding, which are these movies' foundation
- no regard for what came before, only lip service; JJ's TFA is just carelessly indifferent, while Johnson's TLJ is actively mocking of the stories/characters and fandom
- disservice to all the new characters who really don't have time or opportunity to become 'their own' (maybe save for Kylo)
- TFA is an empty promise of the worn 'mystery box' idea
- TLJ is a petulant reaction to that focused on meaningless 'gotchas' and the idea of subversion, only to end up on the same tracks by the end, while somehow completely cutting the potential of a sequel

It was like a perfect one-two punch of awful. And Disney already laid the groundwork for the franchise's decline, by angering fans prior to both movies releases.
- they canceled the Clone Wars TV series, which by that point was a) beloved and b) really good
- they canceled the original tv series from Lucas set in the 'dark times' between PT and OT
- they canceled all the in-production games, including 1313 which was generating buzz with the fans
- they handed the license to EA, which proceeded to a) sleep on it for 7 years now, not counting b) Battlefront, which is mired in the lootbox controversy
- in one fell swoop they made the old EU redundant, a) making a lot of people feel cheated and b) making the SW world a lot smaller; it doesn't help that the new EU isn't that great (the new EU's problem is that a lot of it is inconsequential, it's a glorified promotional material for the movies, while the old EU, with all its warts was mostly interested in telling new stories)

Gutting the old EU made a lot of existing merchandise worthless, while making movies with undercooked characters that don't really have much to do (Finn, Poe, Rose, to a lesser extent Rey) made these characters less desirable as toys.

It's actually surprising that SW is doing this well. Disney is now in full damage control mode and to their credit they seem to be making all the right decisions to course correct:
- bringing back the Clone Wars
- making a tv series set in the OT continuity, with actual fans at the helm
- making another tv series and game in the 'dark times' period (maybe reusing some of the stuff from the Lucas tv series)
- retconing a lot of TLJ
- not really touching the ST period

Time will tell if it's enough to return the brand to the glory days.

If the prequels couldn't kill Star Wars, the sequels definitely won't
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I think Thanos is a tad different, because with the Thanos tease in Avengers, none of it detracts from the film proper. It never slows the movie to a standstill to have Thanos, without introduction, just walk-in mid-movie, and depart without explanation. It's a post-credit's scene (Maul would've been a better post-credits teaser too, but it's not; it's right in the crux of the finale).
But the thing is this is the complete reverse of what we were discussing, in terms of what Star Wars movies could be enjoyed without watching the previous ones. Maul only slows it down for people who have seen his previous appearances. For people who hadn't seen any Star Wars before he was effectively like Thanos. The mysterious baddie behind things that would be elaborated on later (assuming that was their plan)
 

Knightywing

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
204
The ST is a pretty bad starting point for kids, since it relies so heavily on old characters and events. Kids have no attachment to Han, Leia or Chewie, and when the new characters are all different shades of bland/meh, I understand if kids aren't hyped for new Star Wars. The ST also lacks good alien creatures, and they could absolutely have taken some pointers from the PT (which gets way too much underserved hate).

However, it is hard to feel sorry for Star Wars/Lucasfilms. This is what happens when you employ JJ Abrams to direct your franchise to new horizons, full of cheap nostalgia and mediocrity, lol. You could not have asked for a worse director to direct the first installment of a new SW trilogy.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,786
United Kingdom
The ST also lacks good alien creatures, and they could absolutely have taken some pointers from the PT (which gets way too much underserved hate).

It's fascinating how much this sentiment gets repeated (Assuming you meant undeserved. Otherwise, I would agree with you, lately it is under served.) when talking about the ST. I thought the PT was crap and, as I said before, I was 7 when TPM came out. I was the mark, and I hated them. Lots of people hated them. It's curious that so many shitting on the new movies have to talk about how much they don't like how the PT was shat upon, even though they're repeating the same talking points that adults who hated the PT spouted back in the day.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
100% this. And you can see this with other long-running properties too.

Look at Batman. Even if you only focus on the movies, you've got the campy Burton & Shumacher films, the intense and dramatic Nolan movies, whatever Zack Snyder tried to do, and we're about to get something different from all of those.

Meanwhile, Star Wars is always Star Wars. There's never been a time when someone said "Why don't we redo Star Wars in a different style or tone?" And even when they try to change the tone up a little, whatever they make is still stuck being in the same universe as all of the other properties. Nothing gets to act on its own. Nothing gets room to breath. It all needs to build up the main Star Wars story, and so it isn't allowed to be different. And that makes it boring for a ton of people.
I remember reading about how Bioware was once pitched the option of doing a tie-in to the current movies... or doing a prequel game set thousands of years before the first film's story. They chose the latter and did Knights of the Old Republic, largely because it gave them a massive amount of creative freedom to do pretty much anything they wanted to do. New original cast, new Force history, new planets, new aliens, new lore, new twists... none of it remotely connected to the Skywalkers or original Trilogy beyond the established themes.

... And it's still WIDELY regarded as the best Star Wars game of all time.

I hear about how difficult it is to develop Star Wars tie-in games at EA from their developers, lamenting about how you have to get Han Solo's shoes "just right", or if you make even a minor change to a character it has to go through 9 different approval stages before it's signed off on which slows down production, and even if you make up an original character, if you tie them into the current storyline then they have to adhere to that time's styles and fashions and "fit in" with what's already established, which is another grueling approval process.

Bioware really made the right move back then because it let them leverage their strengths at the time - lore building, character writing, and narrative structure - to make something that was both "Star Wars" and yet also excitingly fresh and new and different.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,786
United Kingdom
Bioware really made the right move back then because it let them leverage their strengths at the time - lore building, character writing, and narrative structure - to make something that was both "Star Wars" and yet also excitingly fresh and new and different.

It also helps that Bioware were the first to think of going along that approach to adding to the lore.

Now that Disney own it, and are in for the long haul, new eras can't be explored at whim like Bioware did with KotoR, because new eras are for the movies to explore first, with the EU to fill in at a later date.

The downside to a singular canon that must be adhered to. Which was a request demanded by fanboys.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,702
It has been stated, countless times, that the EU was effectively decided to be scrapped as early as 2011 when George Lucas started considering doing a sequel trilogy. As he was never going to follow the continuity of the post-ROTJ EU.

Pining that on "Disney" is absurd.


From what i remember, LucasArts has setup a "George Lucas" canon on or before the Prequel trilogy that overrides every Star Wars Expanded Universe works whether its from Timothy Zahn or old Marvel comics or from the later Del Rey stories. As the creator and often producer of Star Wars materials, its perfectly fine for Big George to totally ignore EU materials when it suits him . . . . or adopt them like when he made Tim Zahn's Coruscant officially "George Lucas" canon as the central capital of the Star Wars galaxy.

Not that his feelings towards Star Wars EU matters now. Its Disney who is running the show now and they are the ones somehow running-out of quality material for a yearly movie release cycle. If only they have a wealth of existing Star Wars characters and stories to adapt and modernize into movies kinda like how their stablemates, Marvel Studios, is able to release 2 to 3 movies a year by adapting and modernizing (and believing-in) Marvel Comics characters and stories. I would imagine that such nerd-approved Star Wars characters and stories would have expedited the Star Wars movie-writing process and would have a built-in, solid fanbase for Disney's marketing department to exploit. Hmmm . . . . if only.
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,661
Lol, that wasn't your original post. Guess you're of the George Lucas school of creation. :P

Wow, you're actually comparing someone editing and refining their post in the middle of replying to someone to your personal dislike of how Lucas handles editing in his movies? "lol You edited your post, so I'm right! Gotcha!" Ok. Also your drive-by post about Palp's CGI move has little to do with the discussion I was having with someone else over whether or not one feels the actual lightsaber duels in the PT are overall well directed as fight scenes. But if Palp's wacky CGI shot really bothers you that much and you really don't like the PT duels that's fine, I wasn't begrudging anyone of that.

Frankly, I don't agree. In the original trilogy Palpatine is above lightsabers, he refers to them disdainfully, as if they're mere toys, because he's just that powerful.

In the PT he's given a lightsaber, why precisely? Because everyone evil is called Darth and carries a red lightsaber. It actually removes from Palpatine. ROTS actually makes him less mysterious and more of a generic villain of the week.

To each their own but "Palp being disdainful of lightsabers" and 'only Darths should carry red lightsabers as bad guys' really sounds like a fan preference/insisting on adhering to "rules from the OT" that were not set in stone kind of thing while looking down on other fans who aren't fixated on such things.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,786
United Kingdom
Wow, you're actually comparing someone editing and refining their post in the middle of replying to someone to your personal dislike of how Lucas handles editing in his movies? "lol You edited your post! Gotcha!" Haha, ok.

I was making a cheeky joke about how drastic the edit was. You went from saying I made a fair point to saying that I'm making drive by posts that don't count.

But hey, the edit should be logged, so if you want to get the mods involved, let's do it. Let's see who is gaslighting who, shall we? :)
 

Agent Unknown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,661
I was making a cheeky joke about how drastic the edit was. You went from saying I made a fair point to saying that I'm making drive by posts that don't count.

But hey, the edit should be logged, so if you want to get the mods involved, let's do it. Let's see who is gaslighting who, shall we? :)

Yes, I agreed the Palestine CGI was bad, I still had every right to add more to my post and reply to you in more detail if I wanted. It's funny how you insist on your own rigid set of personal rules both in how you think the movies should be enjoyed and how they should be discussed but that doesn't surprise me when I see you nitpicking grammar errors in other posts. Now you're talking about getting mods involved and making accusations of gaslighting? Wow. I'm done.
 

Thatguy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,207
Seattle WA
Every old SW movie showed you something you had never seen before. Something amazing.

SW: space cowboys, death star, lightsabers, the force

ESB: cloud city

RotJ: retread, worst of the OT but character drama carried it. Endor was just a forest.

PM: Pod Race, Naboo both amazing set pieces

AotC: Coruscant, but worst of the PT. Geonisis was just a desert.

RotS: Mustafar, character drama

TFA: ??? The star destroyer graveyard was the only interesting visuals here. Most of the movie was just ship interiors and a basic forest

TLJ: Arch To just a simple island, lots of ship stuff, casino planet was a fancy cantina scene. The final battle was a clear retread of both. But zero notable set pieces.

The story of PT has big problems too. The main hero is too perfect, always in the right and always ends up OK/victorious. There is no feeling of a larger story. It's just a war serial. If people aren't buying toys it's because there is nobody to attach to emotionally. Luke is a loser. Phasma is a loser. Kylo is a loser. Rey just wins always. Finn/Poe have no story to tell that wasn't told in TFA. There's nothing going on here drama wise.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,134
You don't think TFA and TLJ were sincere efforts? TLJ in particular played to me like a risky, director-driven project. No way in hell do you get that Luke portrayal if Disney executives had their way.
The Luke/Kylo/Rey parts were excellent, the whole thing should have been like that - but that was what felt like less than half the movie. And the other half was just tripe.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,660
Costa Rica
You don't think TFA and TLJ were sincere efforts? TLJ in particular played to me like a risky, director-driven project. No way in hell do you get that Luke portrayal if Disney executives had their way.

Are we really going to pretend that "Previous protagonist is now a bitter old dude who needs new protagonist to cheer them up" is some amazing never seen before character arc?
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
Are we really going to pretend that "Previous protagonist is now a bitter old dude who needs new protagonist to cheer them up" is some amazing never seen before character arc?

That is a conceit that's been used in a lot of movies, yes. But that's not what I'm talking about and I'm fairly certain you know that and are being disingenuous.

Applying that basic trope to a character like Luke Skywalker and having him contemplate killing his own nephew proved risky and controversial as evidenced by some of the fan backlash. He's depressed, ornery, doesn't act like a wise mentor, doesn't train our hero, doesn't have any good action scenes. That's not gonna sell a lot of action figures ya know.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,660
Costa Rica
That is a conceit that's been used in a lot of movies, yes. But that's not what I'm talking about and I'm fairly certain you know that and are being disingenuous.

Applying that basic trope to a character like Luke Skywalker and having him contemplate killing his own nephew proved risky and controversial as evidenced by some of the fan backlash. He's depressed, ornery, doesn't act like a wise mentor, doesn't train our hero, doesn't have any good action scenes. That's not gonna sell a lot of action figures ya know.

And there's your problem.

You might call it risky all you want. It wasn't. It just helped alienate kids and old fans alike.

I'm not saying it can't be done, hell it was part of Lucas' original plan. But his plan involved Luke returning to the fight.

In this movies he dies and never actually elevates himself to a cool kind father figure for kids to relate. He's a dick to Rey feels bad, helps a bit and dies.

Stop looking at it with devotion, and put yourself in the shoes of a kid. They won't care about him.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,786
United Kingdom
And there's your problem.

You might call it risky all you want. It wasn't. It just helped alienate kids and old fans alike.

I'm not saying it can't be done, hell it easy part of Lucas' original plan. But his plan involved Luke returning to the fight.

In this movies he dies and never actually elevates himself to a cool kind father figure for kids to relate.

"Lucas' original plan"

There was no original plan. That's why we have Splinter of the Mind's Eye.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
And there's your problem.

You might call it risky all you want. It wasn't. It just helped alienate kids and old fans alike.

I'm not saying it can't be done, hell it was part of Lucas' original plan. But his plan involved Luke returning to the fight.

In this movies he dies and never actually elevates himself to a cool kind father figure for kids to relate. He's a dick to Rey feels bad, helps a bit and dies.

Stop looking at it with devotion, and put yourself in the shoes of a kid. They won't care about him.

Your argument is that the Luke depiction which ran the risk of alienating diehard fans (and did in some cases) was not risky from a creative and financial perspective? The preferred version you expected to see onscreen was both conventional and creatively safe. And frankly quite boring ... AND plays right into the trope you derided earlier as being creatively safe.
 

Mockerre

Story Director
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
630
If the prequels couldn't kill Star Wars, the sequels definitely won't

The Prequels are light years better than ST though. From a franchise-sustaining way at least. They may have awful dialog, stilted acting and dated CGI, but at least they're about something, they have story arcs and great world building. They have a soul. And the stories stay with people, while the sucky specifics fade. The ST is just a big bowl of nothing. It's a soulless consumer product with no direction and point to exist other than to make money. There is no mythology there or stories to recount, just a series of almost random events happening one after another.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,660
Costa Rica
Your argument is that the Luke depiction which ran the risk of alienating diehard fans (and did in some cases) was not risky from a creative and financial perspective? The preferred version you expected to see onscreen was both conventional and creatively safe. And frankly quite boring ... AND plays right into the trope you derided earlier as being creatively safe.


I'm not saying anything about risks. I'm saying that it did nothing for kids to enamour them with the character of Luke Skywalker.

Whether I think it was risky or not is irrelevant, but personally, I think it wasn't. Both him doing nothing and then just dying in one last hurrah or him learning his lesson and going back to fight are cliché AF.
 

Sulik2

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,168
It's the quality of the stories. The OT has aged poorly, the PT is terrible and TFA while a good movie was incredibly similar to A New Hope and JJ puzzle boxed us instead of showing how the universe had gotten to the state it was in and left people confused. TLJ was just a mess from a story perspective. I liked what they did with Luke, but the movie had no idea what to do with anyone outside of Luke, Kylo and Rey and destroyed Poe and Finn's characters. Solo was ok but that movie was hit by fatigue. The truly great Star Wars movie Disney has given us is Rogue One and that's definitely not a kids movie.

The Prequels are light years better than ST though. From a franchise-sustaining way at least. They may have awful dialog, stilted acting and dated CGI, but at least they're about something, they have story arcs and great world building. They have a soul. And the stories stay with people, while the sucky specifics fade. The ST is just a big bowl of nothing. It's a soulless consumer product with no direction and point to exist other than to make money. There is no mythology there or stories to recount, just a series of almost random events happening one after another.

Id argue the ST could have been about something, but not having a goal for all three movies and the same director and writer is what messed this up. They never should have let JJ create so many mysteries in TFA if he wasn't going to be there to answer them.
 

Deleted member 5666

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,753
I'm not saying anything about risks. I'm saying that it did nothing for kids to enamour them with the character of Luke Skywalker.

Whether I think it was risky or not is irrelevant, but personally, I think it wasn't. Both him doing nothing and then just dying in one last hurrah or him learning his lesson and going back to fight are cliché AF.
Kids are supposed to look up and identify with Rey, not Luke. Rey is the lead. The hero. Luke is a secondary character only relevant in how he helps Rey on her journey as the saga is now Rey's story.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
Easy fix.

The next Star Wars movie should just be Finn on the Flacon streaming Holochess for 2 hours.
 

JeTmAn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,825
The Prequels are light years better than ST though. From a franchise-sustaining way at least. They may have awful dialog, stilted acting and dated CGI, but at least they're about something, they have story arcs and great world building. They have a soul. And the stories stay with people, while the sucky specifics fade. The ST is just a big bowl of nothing. It's a soulless consumer product with no direction and point to exist other than to make money. There is no mythology there or stories to recount, just a series of almost random events happening one after another.

I think the prequels have plenty of great ideas but precious little execution on those ideas. The tragedy of Anakin Skywalker is a compelling story but the writing and acting completely destroy the dramatic weight it could've carried. The sequels seem more the opposite. Writing is good, performances are good, but the bigger ideas and mythology are reduced. I don't think those things are entirely absent in the sequels, though. The thing with lightsabers carrying memories and being passed down through generations is an interesting idea. You also can't discount the sequels' examination of the true meaning of the different aspects of the Force, light vs. dark and the ramifications of living by such a Manichean standard.
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,299
You realIze they decided to scrap the EU before the Disney sale right? And the underworld show was cancelled before the Disney sale right?

And The Clone Wars was near death due to poor ratings and cancelled merch line before the Disney sale right?

And that 1313 was cancelled before the Disney sale as well?

You realise Disney had full control to completely reverse all of those decisions or, at the very least, replace them with something else?
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,660
Costa Rica
Kids are supposed to look up and identify with Rey, not Luke. Rey is the lead. The hero. Luke is a secondary character only relevant in how he helps Rey on her journey as the saga is now Rey's story.

Well guess what? They don't care about her either. Or Finn...Or Poe.

For example,while Finn is out there being made fun at for being a Janitor, Black Kids have T'Challa. And so on...

They don't have any staying power compared to other characters being produced at the moment.

Anakin Skywalker, Darth Maul, Obi-Wan and the likes managed to be relevant against Spider-Man and Harry Potter. Rey and Finn? nope. You see zero presence of this characters in mainstream consciousness outside of "Star Wars season"
 

Helot_Azure

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,521
As a huge SW fan in my youth, I find the new movies to be corny as hell.

The new characters are fucking cringe-worthy. Especially Finn and General Hux.

Rey is a VERY boring protagonist. Such a letdown overall.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
The Prequels are light years better than ST though. From a franchise-sustaining way at least. They may have awful dialog, stilted acting and dated CGI, but at least they're about something, they have story arcs and great world building. They have a soul. And the stories stay with people, while the sucky specifics fade. The ST is just a big bowl of nothing. It's a soulless consumer product with no direction and point to exist other than to make money. There is no mythology there or stories to recount, just a series of almost random events happening one after another.

If I rolled my eyes any harder I'd throw up.

The last thing the Prequels have is a soul. Don't fool yourself.
 

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,660
Costa Rica
So who were kids looking up to before in your eyes? The child murderer?

Indeed.

Obi-Wan too.

Are you implying kids can only look up to perfect characters with no flaws? (Hi Rey!) That is hilarious. Kids loved criminal cold blooded killer Han Solo.

Edit: You know what gets kids? Cool looking new shit, That's literally all you need.

ST is not new stuff it's their parents stuff repackaged, so it's automatically lame. It will do about as much for them as an MP3 of the Bee-Gee's greatest hits
 
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