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[Bloomberg op-ed] Video Game Industry Struggles to Shake Sexist Attitudes - Tae Kim
- Thread starter starfoxxxy
- Start date
this article seems like it was meant for 6 years ago or something
Now I'll never unsee this
Now I'll never unsee this
Let me be crystal clear. The "ugly" word quote is from the toxic social media replies/messages I'm getting. I AM NOT saying or implying that for Aloy.
i feel like there should just be space for both. like i actually do like characters that get a lot of hate on here for being more traditionally "sexy" but like obviously there are a lot of people that like aloy's design
ultimately consumers are going to gravitate to one or the other. earnestly i really dont like saying theres a right or wrong way to design a female character. there are things that can really rub me the wrong way like female characters who wear outfits that are shamelessly revealing but then act embarrassed when it's pointed out to them- why would they even be wearing that, then? i feel like this is more of a writing standpoint idea and traditionally this world has come from a masculine perspective, so that steeps into problematic ideas regarding their fantasies. women can and have been involved with the aesthetic of "sexy" and it feels a lot more genuine in the case of something like Bayonetta.
i also don't really like the framing of aloy presented in this article. maybe this just has to do with how i read the art book for insight on the world and was sorely disappointed to find very little on the thought process of the world, but she just does not stick out to me as like anything particularly different. obviously in the minority here as the usual subjects are seething and chudding as usual but like... i dont really see how aloy and the greater point this article makes about the lack of women being involved in games in general are all related.
this whole article feels woefully under baked. i guess i cant fault it because not many people are actually going to read it but its such a basic idea for an article- congratulating the big company for doing a protagonist that is like maybe 10% less conventionally attractive than her other contemporaries thats only really notable because it is a big success for a big company and then somehow trying to click it together with a shaming of activision's woefully small group of women working in the company and how that might have led to it's culture of harassment.
the other thing about aloy in this article is that you would think involvement with women in her development would be SOMEWHERE in the article to help connect this point, but... it's not.
in fact, the article published by playstation themselves in 2017 only talks to men about aloy and her design process:
blog.playstation.com
i just... earnestly wish this article had more of a point. women should be more involved, but aloy is far from a shining example of that- in fact she maybe only exists as an antithesis? which sucks.
ultimately consumers are going to gravitate to one or the other. earnestly i really dont like saying theres a right or wrong way to design a female character. there are things that can really rub me the wrong way like female characters who wear outfits that are shamelessly revealing but then act embarrassed when it's pointed out to them- why would they even be wearing that, then? i feel like this is more of a writing standpoint idea and traditionally this world has come from a masculine perspective, so that steeps into problematic ideas regarding their fantasies. women can and have been involved with the aesthetic of "sexy" and it feels a lot more genuine in the case of something like Bayonetta.
i also don't really like the framing of aloy presented in this article. maybe this just has to do with how i read the art book for insight on the world and was sorely disappointed to find very little on the thought process of the world, but she just does not stick out to me as like anything particularly different. obviously in the minority here as the usual subjects are seething and chudding as usual but like... i dont really see how aloy and the greater point this article makes about the lack of women being involved in games in general are all related.
these are... completely different, unrelated thoughts, right? like i'm not crazy, right?
this whole article feels woefully under baked. i guess i cant fault it because not many people are actually going to read it but its such a basic idea for an article- congratulating the big company for doing a protagonist that is like maybe 10% less conventionally attractive than her other contemporaries thats only really notable because it is a big success for a big company and then somehow trying to click it together with a shaming of activision's woefully small group of women working in the company and how that might have led to it's culture of harassment.
the other thing about aloy in this article is that you would think involvement with women in her development would be SOMEWHERE in the article to help connect this point, but... it's not.
in fact, the article published by playstation themselves in 2017 only talks to men about aloy and her design process:
The creation of Horizon Zero Dawn’s Aloy, as told by Guerrilla Games
The studio goes into detail about Aloy’s origins, her voice actor and how you shape part of her character
blog.playstation.com
i just... earnestly wish this article had more of a point. women should be more involved, but aloy is far from a shining example of that- in fact she maybe only exists as an antithesis? which sucks.
I hate that you have to clarify this, cause it feels like everybody who actually intends to argue in good faith already understands what you mean. So many trolls out there who just want to stir up some shit under the guise of "just asking questions."
OP
OP
Post Christmas week is usually slow news wise so it makes sense.
Yes. Anyone who actually read the entire piece would know I'm a huge fan of Horizon Zero Dawn/Forbidden West/Aloy.
Her argument that the original Tomb Raider wasn't sexist because 40% of the people who played it were female is laughable. My fiancee is playing Yakuza Zero and loves it. It's still problematic, and you can recognize that without demonizing the game.
Twitter: QUICK SOMEONE PUT A PIC OF SAMUS AND SAY THAT STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED
I fucking hate nothing more than people - oftentimes men, but also other women at times - bringing up that there's women who love playing as female characters in insanely sexualized outfits & don't give a fuck like.. okay? Women with internalized misogyny exist? Women who slut-shame other women exist? As do women who don't give a single shit about misogyny & sexualization (which sadly often is the byproduct of them trying to please men & look like "one of the good ones", but that's a whole different topic) & don't think well of intersectional feminism? Same with women who like cosplaying as sexualized characters & feel empowered by them? But that doesn't mean that the women who do have a problem with misogyny and sexualization & support intersectional feminism are in the wrong or stupid & that people shouldn't listen to them.
Very often has "some people of this specific minority group don't care if other people who don't belong to the same minority group use a slur the minority group reclaimed so I should be able to say it without any repercussion" energy lmao. There's always people who simply do not give a fuck for whatever reason. Be it they're right-winged, anti-SJW fuckers or genuinely simply do not care. Doesn't mean the people who do care are just making up issues that don't exist & should simply shut up. We're not a fucking monolith so of course you never have everyone in a group agreeing on something. Personally, I've always thought that it's more important to make sure the least amount of people are hurt or feel discriminated so instead of immediately dismissing concerns you should always listen first & consider other people's feelings.
To get back to the original topic, sexy or hot != sexualized. As a fucking lesbian I'm obviously attracted to women unlike straight women so of course there's female chracters that I personally consider attractive & hot who are my type, but they're very rarely sexualized & more often than not just in normal ass clothes without any camera leering on their tits or anything like that. Fucking Jesse Fayden from Control, Dina, Ellie & Abby from TLoU2, Frey from Forspoken, Juliette from Deathloop and Chloe & Nadine from The Lost Legacy are some of the female characters that I think are ridiculously attractive & none of them were ever sexualized in any way.
Do I like some female characters who happen to be in dogshit "sexy" outfits myself? Sure. Kainé in Nier & Zero in Drakengard 3 are the best examples. Love them despite their outfits. FFVIIR Tifa as well. But I also have a very similar body type - though I actually have fucking muscles in my arms & thighs unlike her lmfao - to her so I never saw it as super unrealistic generally & more just sexualized. That said, it very much is in context of the game, when you think that she's a fucking fighter. She's got no god damn muscles & is utterly sexualized at times. Just because I generally mostly like her design does not mean that I & others can't call it out or say it's unfitting. Just like Lara Croft was. Just like Jill was. Just like Kainé & Zero are. You can very much like female characters & think their designs are empowering to a degree while also acknowledging that they're sexualized, but a lot of people think we're not capable of that lmao. Please, I know way too many lesbians who go absolutely crazy for some female characters in shit designs while also being the first to talk about how much they suck when it comes to sexualization.
So yeah, bringing up some women (who funnily enough more often than not are ones who think feminism is evil & that we should be gentle with those poor, poor men who feel nothing but hate for us & don't even know how to love women & not just their bodies) being like "lol I'm not like other women I actually don't care about sexualized outfits" isn't the gotcha that some people think it is. Yeah, obviously some don't give a shit. Doesn't mean it's not actually a fucking problem tho.
Anyway, enjoyed the article & agree that it's still very much a problem in the industry. Also kinda losing my mind over how so hung-up some people on Twitter etc. seem to be on the "ugly" thing that wasn't even in the fucking article when people usually have no problem pointing out when a woman or man isn't seen as super conventionally attractive. Like, I personally think Aloy is pretty, but lbr she probably wouldn't run next to Adriana Lima, Miranda Kerr, Alessandra Ambrosio or whoever else is still working with the transphobic Victoria's Secret & is seen as flawless by some parts of our society & it's no crime to point that out lmao. A lot of people do consider characters like Aloy, Abby or Ellie ugly no matter how dogshit their reasons are. Hell, men thought Jill in RE3make was ugly, too manly & "looked infertile" for God's sake.
Personally, I couldn't care for the looks of the vast majority of male characters I've played at - you still don't see me talk about how I think they're ugly bastards or how I couldn't get into the game because of them or some shit. People need to fucking grow up, get over themselves & stop talking like they're models themselves too good to play as characters they wouldn't wanna fuck lmfao.
Also kinda never liked people bringing up Bayo as this perfect sexy female character that owns her sexuality when she's a fictional character designed by the hand of a woman, but after the fetishes of a man - Hideki Kamiya. I love Bayo & even mostly love her design, but she's utterly sexualized by the game, creators & fans so while she can definitely feel empowering for some of us who love owning our sexualities & enjoy dressing sexy I wouldn't say that's all there is to her. If you'd get rid of all the sexualizing male gaze & the fact that she's a product of a man's fetishes I would absolutely agree that she's a great example of a sexy female character in both the way she dresses & acts, but with that baggage I just can't agree.
And I do think too many peole still think that sexualization isn't inherently bad when it very much is. Owning your sexuality, being sexy or dressing sexily or creating a sexy female character - all of which have vastly different definitions depending on which people you ask anyway - is not. Sexualizing a woman dressing sexily or a female character is. Hell, they don't even have to be showing any skin for that. I get sexualized a fuckton when I'm out simply for having a typical hourglass figure even when I'm not showing any skin. Billie Eilish got sexualized like crazy after a paparazzi pic that had her in a tank top with some cleavage showing while she was underage. We do not have any fucking control over people sexualizing us. We can choose for ourselves if we want to dress in a sexy way or not, but even then we're not safe from sexualization. I'm positive there's other women who could explain this better, but I just don't like people - who oftentimes aren't even women - talking about how sexualization of women isn't actually bad & that we should more aim for diverse sexualized characters as if that'd make it any better. Again, you can have sexy or hot characters, nobody said that's not possible. But we do not fucking need sexualized female characters with skimpy outfits that don't fit in the scenario they're in, jiggle physics, ass & tits shots, near moaning when they get hit & other shit like that that's accompanying said sexualized characters.
Sexually objectifying us will never be okay when it leads to eating disorders, depression & suicidal tendencies, body dysmorphia & other mental problems in young girls & women that absolutely ruin the relationships a lot of us have with our bodies. As long as people like me aren't being seen as anything more than a sex object for merely having big tits & an ass we're not at a point where we can talk about how sexualization of women in media made & dominated by men isn't hurtful actually. They do not have any fucking agency, they're not strippers or burlesque dancers or sex workers who know they'll be sexualized while doing their jobs no matter what & can use it to their advantage.
Sorry for the wall of text :(
God, I don't know much about Amara as I never played B3, but her design alone is fantastic. Love strong women who actually have muscles.
Very often has "some people of this specific minority group don't care if other people who don't belong to the same minority group use a slur the minority group reclaimed so I should be able to say it without any repercussion" energy lmao. There's always people who simply do not give a fuck for whatever reason. Be it they're right-winged, anti-SJW fuckers or genuinely simply do not care. Doesn't mean the people who do care are just making up issues that don't exist & should simply shut up. We're not a fucking monolith so of course you never have everyone in a group agreeing on something. Personally, I've always thought that it's more important to make sure the least amount of people are hurt or feel discriminated so instead of immediately dismissing concerns you should always listen first & consider other people's feelings.
To get back to the original topic, sexy or hot != sexualized. As a fucking lesbian I'm obviously attracted to women unlike straight women so of course there's female chracters that I personally consider attractive & hot who are my type, but they're very rarely sexualized & more often than not just in normal ass clothes without any camera leering on their tits or anything like that. Fucking Jesse Fayden from Control, Dina, Ellie & Abby from TLoU2, Frey from Forspoken, Juliette from Deathloop and Chloe & Nadine from The Lost Legacy are some of the female characters that I think are ridiculously attractive & none of them were ever sexualized in any way.
Do I like some female characters who happen to be in dogshit "sexy" outfits myself? Sure. Kainé in Nier & Zero in Drakengard 3 are the best examples. Love them despite their outfits. FFVIIR Tifa as well. But I also have a very similar body type - though I actually have fucking muscles in my arms & thighs unlike her lmfao - to her so I never saw it as super unrealistic generally & more just sexualized. That said, it very much is in context of the game, when you think that she's a fucking fighter. She's got no god damn muscles & is utterly sexualized at times. Just because I generally mostly like her design does not mean that I & others can't call it out or say it's unfitting. Just like Lara Croft was. Just like Jill was. Just like Kainé & Zero are. You can very much like female characters & think their designs are empowering to a degree while also acknowledging that they're sexualized, but a lot of people think we're not capable of that lmao. Please, I know way too many lesbians who go absolutely crazy for some female characters in shit designs while also being the first to talk about how much they suck when it comes to sexualization.
So yeah, bringing up some women (who funnily enough more often than not are ones who think feminism is evil & that we should be gentle with those poor, poor men who feel nothing but hate for us & don't even know how to love women & not just their bodies) being like "lol I'm not like other women I actually don't care about sexualized outfits" isn't the gotcha that some people think it is. Yeah, obviously some don't give a shit. Doesn't mean it's not actually a fucking problem tho.
Anyway, enjoyed the article & agree that it's still very much a problem in the industry. Also kinda losing my mind over how so hung-up some people on Twitter etc. seem to be on the "ugly" thing that wasn't even in the fucking article when people usually have no problem pointing out when a woman or man isn't seen as super conventionally attractive. Like, I personally think Aloy is pretty, but lbr she probably wouldn't run next to Adriana Lima, Miranda Kerr, Alessandra Ambrosio or whoever else is still working with the transphobic Victoria's Secret & is seen as flawless by some parts of our society & it's no crime to point that out lmao. A lot of people do consider characters like Aloy, Abby or Ellie ugly no matter how dogshit their reasons are. Hell, men thought Jill in RE3make was ugly, too manly & "looked infertile" for God's sake.
Personally, I couldn't care for the looks of the vast majority of male characters I've played at - you still don't see me talk about how I think they're ugly bastards or how I couldn't get into the game because of them or some shit. People need to fucking grow up, get over themselves & stop talking like they're models themselves too good to play as characters they wouldn't wanna fuck lmfao.
Also kinda never liked people bringing up Bayo as this perfect sexy female character that owns her sexuality when she's a fictional character designed by the hand of a woman, but after the fetishes of a man - Hideki Kamiya. I love Bayo & even mostly love her design, but she's utterly sexualized by the game, creators & fans so while she can definitely feel empowering for some of us who love owning our sexualities & enjoy dressing sexy I wouldn't say that's all there is to her. If you'd get rid of all the sexualizing male gaze & the fact that she's a product of a man's fetishes I would absolutely agree that she's a great example of a sexy female character in both the way she dresses & acts, but with that baggage I just can't agree.
And I do think too many peole still think that sexualization isn't inherently bad when it very much is. Owning your sexuality, being sexy or dressing sexily or creating a sexy female character - all of which have vastly different definitions depending on which people you ask anyway - is not. Sexualizing a woman dressing sexily or a female character is. Hell, they don't even have to be showing any skin for that. I get sexualized a fuckton when I'm out simply for having a typical hourglass figure even when I'm not showing any skin. Billie Eilish got sexualized like crazy after a paparazzi pic that had her in a tank top with some cleavage showing while she was underage. We do not have any fucking control over people sexualizing us. We can choose for ourselves if we want to dress in a sexy way or not, but even then we're not safe from sexualization. I'm positive there's other women who could explain this better, but I just don't like people - who oftentimes aren't even women - talking about how sexualization of women isn't actually bad & that we should more aim for diverse sexualized characters as if that'd make it any better. Again, you can have sexy or hot characters, nobody said that's not possible. But we do not fucking need sexualized female characters with skimpy outfits that don't fit in the scenario they're in, jiggle physics, ass & tits shots, near moaning when they get hit & other shit like that that's accompanying said sexualized characters.
Sexually objectifying us will never be okay when it leads to eating disorders, depression & suicidal tendencies, body dysmorphia & other mental problems in young girls & women that absolutely ruin the relationships a lot of us have with our bodies. As long as people like me aren't being seen as anything more than a sex object for merely having big tits & an ass we're not at a point where we can talk about how sexualization of women in media made & dominated by men isn't hurtful actually. They do not have any fucking agency, they're not strippers or burlesque dancers or sex workers who know they'll be sexualized while doing their jobs no matter what & can use it to their advantage.
Sorry for the wall of text :(
I also really like Amara in Borderlands 3.
God, I don't know much about Amara as I never played B3, but her design alone is fantastic. Love strong women who actually have muscles.
Yea it's correlation, not causation.
More so because diversity problem originates from a completely different roots - whether people like it or not, objective reality is that tech-centric industries are in a near constant shortage of talent, and total global talent pool that exists is skewed like 10:1 (or worse) in favor of men. So all 'focusing on diversity in hiring' does is reallocate the resources to different companies, it doesn't do anything to immediately move the needle overall.
There's a long-term effect - sustained competition for scarce female candidates should lead to them eventually commanding higher compensation than male colleagues (and I've seen first signs of this potentially happening in recent years), which would presumably generate more interest on education level etc. But that's the kind of change that takes decades to become noticeable.
On the other hand, Ygritte is super sexualized in GoT. She cracks horny jokes, practically pushes herself onto Jon, has a nude sex scene, andAlso weird because I remember GG saying that took a lot of inspiration from Ygritte on GOTY when designing Aloy. Who unsurprisingly also don't wear make up or run around in loincloths, everyone seemed to be able to understand that in the context of the show though.
dies
So I could understand how dudes wouldn't complain about her, comparatively.
This is wrong, actually. The initial talent pool of entry level hires is quite close to 50-50, perhaps even somewhat in favor of women. Then, systematic discrimination at every level makes it more difficult for women to be promoted to higher level positions. And those who do rise in the ranks often get promoted on the basis of being good at playing the men's game.
Really good article. The Twitter takes are ridiculous. Like even in the scenario where I enjoy looking hot and kicking ass in a game I'm very aware of the fact that the women I'm playing as are almost always designed by men for men to look at.
Remember when bits and pieces of the game leaked and everyone thought they knew everything and started judging it super harshly? I distinctly remember people thinking Abby was the vaguely described "trans character" because they couldn't fathom a cis woman having muscles.Aloy had it easy compared to
I'll never forget the salt
Oh, and the misogyny and sexism too
User Banned (permanent): dismissing concerns of sexism, prior ban for dismissing sexual assault
It's funny how at one point in the article it is stated that "Zero Dawn's main protagonist is a female character who doesn't look like a supermodel" when Aloy's face is based off the likeness of Hannah Hoekstra, actress and model. Not to mention how Aloy's body, without all the heavy armor (see the early hours of Zero Dawn, right after the ambush at the Nora trials, when Aloy wakes up after receiving healing treatment inside the mountain), falls under what's considered an "ideal female body type".
So yeah, Tae Kim is doing a laughable job at trying to make a point here, not because of the wrong example he has chosen (and there are many of those in his terribly flawed article), but because there is absolutely nothing wrong about the character design of, say, Bayonetta - one of the most iconic, charismatic and memorable female characters in videogames.
So yeah, Tae Kim is doing a laughable job at trying to make a point here, not because of the wrong example he has chosen (and there are many of those in his terribly flawed article), but because there is absolutely nothing wrong about the character design of, say, Bayonetta - one of the most iconic, charismatic and memorable female characters in videogames.
They want to play Bayonetta without the sexual character design?? Isn't that like, a huge part of her personality and move set? Why not just play any other game, or just admit that the game isn't for you if you're too embarrassed to play in front of others, instead of demanding conformity to your individual level of comfort?
User Banned (permanent): dismissing concerns of sexism, prior ban for dismissing sexism and objectification
That's just the fake "progressives" trying to derail the conversation parading as "woke" only to try to impose conservative and dated opinion as "concerns".
Really old and tired. "Oh, I can't try to censor this obscene game, were a woman teases angels in a snarky way? Let's see how the libs responds when I complain that it offends me as sexualized object!"
User Banned (3 months): dismissing concerns of sexism over multiple posts
It's not that. It's just people who have issues with their bodies looking to reclaim their sexuality by denying it in others.
If I misunderstood this sentence, ignore me. But as I understood it you dismiss that some people could have serious issues with Bayonetta for example and you argue those people just want to reclaim their sexuality? Like are you serious?
I think Patsy made some great points and explained why some people are offended by it. In short, they've experienced sexism in real life and don't think it's ok to objectify woman, because this can result in serious mental health issues. This is a real problem and I hope more people understand that.
I personally think the problem with Bayonetta isn't her look per se. My problem is her behavior and how the developers implemented some scenes and camera angles. Felt not meaningful in any way and just like some silly "fan service".
This genuinely reads like something written 10 years or more ago. Things are very much changing, that much is abundantly clear, but it takes time. Not just a few years; decades.
Just comparing today's releases to early 2000's shows there have been huge improvements already.
Just comparing today's releases to early 2000's shows there have been huge improvements already.
Thank you for your beautiful wall of text, appreciate your passion and completely agree on every point. Sexy ≠ sexualised.
Hmm, I remember the rightful call-outs of appropiation inherent to Aloy and her "tribe". I wish the comment had engaged with the progressive aspects of her while also questioned or considered the public issues with design and how Aloy is still the games industry /Guerrilla /Sony throwing breadcrumbs of diversity and cultural and racial awareness.
I'll always say if you remove Kamiya's perviness as part of the reason behind her design, Bayonetta really would've (or still can) be something special
There's a whole high camp, pop star/drag queen aspect to her sexualization thats really appealing and empowering to the LBTQ community (personally from my experience irl and on Twitter). She just really taps into that kind of thing that like… literally no other game has.
Of course there are still issues with it, Kamiya being the motivation being the main one, but I do hope people who are straight and bring her up as a bad example can understand why she might be appealing in that way. I mean, it's the one video game I've ever seen Lady Gaga tweet about playing lol. I really think the game has a pretty devoted LGBTQ following for her depiction in it
There's a whole high camp, pop star/drag queen aspect to her sexualization thats really appealing and empowering to the LBTQ community (personally from my experience irl and on Twitter). She just really taps into that kind of thing that like… literally no other game has.
Of course there are still issues with it, Kamiya being the motivation being the main one, but I do hope people who are straight and bring her up as a bad example can understand why she might be appealing in that way. I mean, it's the one video game I've ever seen Lady Gaga tweet about playing lol. I really think the game has a pretty devoted LGBTQ following for her depiction in it
Other writers have brought up the native American cultural appropriation and other issues such as native American writer Dia Lacina (sadly she had to take down her original medium article) and it's been reported by other sites. So I think it's a different topic but it's also nice to have that balance so the article isn't just lionising Aloy/Guerrilla Games.
Horizon Zero Dawn designer responds to appropriation criticisms
Four terms from the game have come under fire
www.polygon.com
Why do people latch on to the easy pickings (ie Aloy) instead of actually discussing the article?
Probably too uncomfortable
Probably too uncomfortable
How do you not realize the important issue coming out of that article right now is to discuss if Aloy is hot or not?
Well... It's hard to deny the resemblance in that unfortunate shot to be fair.
Personally my biggest problem with Aloy's design is how thin she is. Like she's shooting a bow the whole day but has sticks for arms. Also the heads of quite a few characters in the game looks too big for their bodies. Kid Aloy especially.
Can you quantify what 'exactly' you're referencing here? Is it the talent-pool distribution, is it the people actually getting hired, is it for a specific industry, and where is it geographically?
Over the last few decades, most data I've seen on engineering/math etc. students was in ratios like 50:1 or worse (seems to be consistent across different countries/continents). The next step - the CV/applications distribution for tech/engineering roles is easily more than 10:1 skewed as well. This also persists across variety of tech-industries.
I run into this stuff all the time too with my wife. It's not like she's judging me specifically (Though maybe she would if I was constantly playing games with those sorts of portrayals; I'm thankful a lot of anime style games don't appeal to me), but it's unquestionably cringey to see characters portrayed the way they are in so many games.
Not only is it unnecessary to have every character be a beautiful supermodel, but even if someone does stand on the "I want all my characters to be pretty" end of the spectrum, it still isn't necessary that every character ratchets up the sex appeal to the nth degree to achieve that. It's a bizarre mentality to say the least.
The initial talent pool of STEM hires are STEM graduates. According to the World Bank's data, that pool would be approximately 40% female.
I don't have much to add, but I wanted to say that was a great post.
Ok that's not as lopsided, but it's still pretty slanted (less than 4 in 10) - the next interesting data point would be individual STEM fields, but that's probably much harder to parse. It's also a worldwide average - even when you hire in the most international employers, your pool will be geographically influenced/limited - for smaller outfits the region just shrinks further.
To be specific for practical numbers I've been referencing - over the last decade or so, women generally have a higher chance of passing the hiring-loops (20-30% higher in organizations I've worked with), and I've seen this persist across 3-4 different companies in last decade. But the number of new-hires is still substantially skewed in favor of men - simply due to raw number advantage in incoming candidates. 10:1 ratio remains common, though admittedly that's hires across all experience levels - there's no easy way to break it down further.
Interesting that this table also indicates that countries with 'less' gender equality score higher in education diversity, which I remember hearing about before, but I guess here it is, in data.
Yes, but it is heavily skewed towards females in Science and towards males in TEM as I understand it.
What is also important is not only to push for more women and positive portrayals but that they STAY positive.
Company aren't people or your friend; The people who make and push for these decisions come and go and if a company thinks that marking to gaters and white men they WILL.
Like Sony since it was used in the article, while we're getting stuff like Aloy in the gaming side, on the movie side we're seeing Sony appeal to the harrassers and sexist Ghostbusters fanbase with how it's ignoring the 2016 film like with the recent Ultimate collection debacle. Remember it wasn't that long ago companies like EA and Sony were heavy is sexist marketing like with Original GOW games or blocking women from covers because "It will scare away fratboys" or Capcom where you'll have the more positive Resident Evil stuff one one end but the sexist and racist stuff in Street Fighter on the other end. And many of the people who made those choices are still there.
The past few years have shown that much of the positive stuff we've was performative and many abusers will allowed free-reign while claiming inclusivity.
We can't just forget about it when we "win": we need to stay vigilante for it.
Company aren't people or your friend; The people who make and push for these decisions come and go and if a company thinks that marking to gaters and white men they WILL.
Like Sony since it was used in the article, while we're getting stuff like Aloy in the gaming side, on the movie side we're seeing Sony appeal to the harrassers and sexist Ghostbusters fanbase with how it's ignoring the 2016 film like with the recent Ultimate collection debacle. Remember it wasn't that long ago companies like EA and Sony were heavy is sexist marketing like with Original GOW games or blocking women from covers because "It will scare away fratboys" or Capcom where you'll have the more positive Resident Evil stuff one one end but the sexist and racist stuff in Street Fighter on the other end. And many of the people who made those choices are still there.
The past few years have shown that much of the positive stuff we've was performative and many abusers will allowed free-reign while claiming inclusivity.
We can't just forget about it when we "win": we need to stay vigilante for it.
Any data to support that? It might explain what we're seeing in candidate shortages - but I wouldn't want to just go off assumptions (I've had visibility into a 'couple' universities that support it, but that's closer to anecdotal than statistically relevant evidence).
Take computer science as an example, because that is the STEM field most relevant for making video games. In India, women are 45% of CS graduates (the overall population is only 48% female). The US's manages 18% female CS graduates. I don't think even places like Saudi Arabia has 10:1 or higher gender ratio at the degree level. As for how it breaks down in STEM overall, I do not have world data, but we can take a look at a study for China as an example. The below are % students that are female. Keep in mind China overall is somewhere between 46-48% female at this age range.
- Math: 54% (126)
- Physics: 34% (103)
- Chemistry: 56% (100)
- Biology: 41% (222)
- Computer: 37% (291)
- Engineering: 23% (4116)
The gender ratio is closer in public sectors than private sectors. It is closer in science and mathematics (more common in academia) than engineering (more common in for-profit enterprises). These all suggest that the problem is on the employer side much more than the female worker side.
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It will never not be fucking weird to me that Aloy is by some people's metric, considered some kind of average, unsexy woman. Find me a "normal" woman who looks anything like her. That she doesn't have 38DDs or waggling half-exposed hips is not like...a crowning achievement in the field of feminine representation.
Good point. Some above, thank you Raftina.
Here's some employment breakdowns and you can see social sciences are dominated by women (65%) in the way computer and engineering is dominated by males (only 20% women).
Women Are Nearly Half of U.S. Workforce but Only 27% of STEM Workers
While women make up nearly half of the U.S. workforce, they are only 27% of STEM workers, up from 8% in 1970.
www.census.gov
This has some of the education degree breakdowns with women in the majority in sciences (53%) but notable minority in engineering and tech (18%) in Asia as an example, and each other region, with US seeing 60% in science and 25% in tech and engineering. So a similar gap, but higher values in general.
Women in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) (Quick Take)
Data and sources for women in STEM industries in Australia, Canada, Europe, India, Japan, and the United States.
www.catalyst.org
In short, the STEM gender gap starts early, in primary education, gets reinforced through high school then makes itself ingrained by college and ultimately into workforce. You can't just easily "hire more women" if those women are not getting the degrees and skills you need them to get in the numbers needed. It's really a systemic problem from the very early ages and it can only be solved in a comprehensive way.
Anecdotally, my wife and I see it in our work. I work in tech/engineering, my wife in sciences/health and I see a majority males employed and applying for jobs, she sees a majority women employed and applying for jobs. We've talked about this and what we can do within our work and teams and structures, and more importantly how do we approach it for our kids as we have a boy and a girl, and how do we encourage both to explore everything if they are interested and combat being pigeonholed by the system.
The table with 53% in the Asia-Pacific section is actually specific to Australia. In India, the numbers are much closer, with women accounting for 50-54% of science and CS degrees and 30% of tech and engineering degrees. Note that math is not separately counted, though the study in China suggests math is actually closer to natural science than engineering in terms of gender breakdown.This has some of the education degree breakdowns with women in the majority in sciences (53%) but notable minority in engineering and tech (18%) in Asia as an example, and each other region, with US seeing 60% in science and 25% in tech and engineering. So a similar gap, but higher values in general.
Women in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) (Quick Take)
Data and sources for women in STEM industries in Australia, Canada, Europe, India, Japan, and the United States.
In short, the STEM gender gap starts early, in primary education, gets reinforced through high school then makes itself ingrained by college and ultimately into workforce. You can't just easily "hire more women" if those women are not getting the degrees and skills you need them to get in the numbers needed. It's really a systemic problem from the very early ages and it can only be solved in a comprehensive way.
Based on UNESCO, the biggest problem seems to happen at the hiring level, much less so at the education level: https://en.unesco.org/sites/default/files/usr2015_kakemonos_gender_en.pdf