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19thCenturyFox

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,309
Agreed. It would be basically the "arrogant Sony" meme come to fruition. Goodwill can only take you so far, and having a more expensive and weaker console than your competition would be a megaton disaster, almost as bad as the Xbox One and PS3.

Sony are competing against PS4 launch aligned and it would hurt them in that sense but Xbox isn't a factor in large parts of Europe and even though Sony isn't doing well in Japan Xbox is a non factor there as well and will always be regardless of what Microsoft is trying to do about it. I'd say the worst case scenario for Sony is that they lose the UK and the USA and maybe one of the mainland EU countries that isn't Sonyland and they'll end up only outselling the new Xbox consoles by 10-15m units by the end of this generation.
 

EBomb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
464
- 50% yeilds doesn't mean half of the wafer is wasted. It just means that batch of wafer had this issue. Later batches can have much higher yields.

That's exactly what 50% yields mean. Doesn't mean you can't learn from why they failed and improve future batches, but this statement doesn't compute.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,993
He has been right about stuff that was already right.
He takes the correct info and then go conclusion hunting.

He believed PS5 has only software RT and used Github/etc to prove it when we all knew not all the info is complete.



This part is actually not correct. Xb1 SOC is 370mm+. It is bigger than Xsx (~360mm) and much bigger than PS5's SOC (~300m).
Yeah, I won't even revisit that time in the speculation threads, lol.


All I'll say is this: anyone who knew the PS5 was on RDNA 2 before the AMD stream and Road to PS5 must have been an insider, in the know, worked for one of the companies involved and just never blew their cover.

Even looking at tf predictions from some folks the hours, minutes before the Road to PS5...damn near everyone predicted based on more than 36cu's. And never on more than 2Ghz for the gpu. Or, not as high as 2.23Ghz.

You can tell based on the tf predictions even if they didn't put cu's in their post.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
The PS5 is RNDA 2 because that's how AMD is presenting it. So the PS5 absolutely has it. He's saying the PS5's RNDA 2 version isn't the same as the newer XSX/XSS version. He believes the PS5 version is partly based on RNDA 1.x tech.

Also, some "this is just absurd" posts haven't aged well. Remember when Sony going over 2.x for the clock speed was crazy talk and that means the PS5 MUST have more CUs?

I don't know what is true, but I certainly have an open mind about it. I'm really looking forward to more PS5 details.
its RDNA 2 lol. sony literally said its RDNA 2 customized, and even saying it has older features is a moot point that is the case if they want to have backward compatibility, its not any indication of it being less than what RDNA 2 is.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
That's exactly what 50% yields mean. Doesn't mean you can't learn from why they failed and improve future batches, but this statement doesn't compute.

I think he's trying to say what you are saying. He's saying 50% yields does not mean half of all wafers is lost. Just that particular batch and that future batches can have much higher yields.

At least that's how I understand his post.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
All I'll say is this: anyone who knew the PS5 was on RDNA 2 before the AMD stream and Road to PS5 must have been an insider, in the know, worked for one of the companies involved and just never blew their cover.

Even looking at tf predictions from some folks the hours, minutes before the Road to PS5...damn near everyone predicted based on more than 36cu's. And never on more than 2Ghz for the gpu. Or, not as high as 2.23Ghz.

You can tell based on the tf predictions even if they didn't put cu's in their post.

You don't have to be an insider to know any of that. Most of the info for the specs were already out for both consoles by the end 2019. Just have to connect all thee pieces together using experience and some technical mindfulness.

That being said, the actual specs usually have one or more twist that no one saw coming. For me its the 14gbps GDDR6 when Github and all the benchmarks had shown 16+gbps chips.

www.resetera.com

PlayStation: Mark Cerny will provide a deep dive into PS5’s system architecture tomorrow at 9am PT

https://www.resetera.com/threads/next-gen-ps5-and-next-xbox-speculation-launch-thread-ot8-the-dark-tower-see-staff-post.159131/post-27823630 Final prediction: 8 core Zen 2 4.0ghz no SMT, 3.8ghz with SMT 16GB GDDR6 512+GB/s, 2-4GB DDR4. (Questionable) 36CU at 2.2+ghz / 40CU at 2.1ghz, 10+TF...
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
its RDNA 2 lol. sony literally said its RDNA 2 customized, and even saying it has older features is a moot point that is the case if they want to have backward compatibility, its not any indication of it being less than what RDNA 2 is.

I agree it's RNDA 2. The question he's asking, is it the same RNDA2. DukeBlueBall made a good point about some of Blue Nugroho's earlier posts, so I'm suspect they are the same.

But youneverknow :)
 

Putty

Double Eleven
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
930
Middlesbrough
That Blue chap is that Cteam guy on Mr x site. The same guy who back in 2013 was claiming XB1 had some dual gpu in the hdmi cable and that once DX12 came the machine would be doing 8k. Exaggerating but you get the point.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
I agree it's RNDA 2. The question he's asking, is it the same RNDA2. DukeBlueBall made a good point about some of Blue Nugroho's earlier posts, so I'm suspect they are the same.

But youneverknow :)
Its more than likely not the Same Both MS and Sony Can customize the chips as they want compared to what the feature set is that AMD has, There are good reasons to take out stuff they dont need that wouldnt work for a console and add stuff they do need or other tech to fit their design goals within that RDNA2 Base, hence them being custom. People getting hung up on RDNA1 2 or even people saying 3 it makes no sense. Even in Road to PS5 Cerny said about them collabing with AMD and some things they took from AMD and Some things AMD took from them which would end up in retail slightly later on.


Well now what the hell.

"We have not changed the production number for PlayStation 5 since the start of mass production."

now this is interesting now what the hell is the real number.
 

Parker Petrov

Member
Nov 1, 2017
452
ah okay so it's related to the cpu clocks, thanks!

and oh yeah i think those prices are way too low, guess we'll see in 24 hours.

Yeah, the cpu clocks appear to be the reason-based off what we know. As the Ryzen chips themselves from AMD have really good yields. Microsoft, albeit using server-class cpu so different silicon also doesn't have this yield issue.

The only real difference is the clocks. If they just would have been happy with the stable locked clock which put them at the 9.34 teraflops they wouldn't have had these issues.
 

That1GoodHunter

My ass legally belongs to Ted Price
Member
Oct 17, 2019
10,863
Let me cut you the trouble of going past this post. The following 10 pages will be filled with posts claiming that "Sony is lying" or "They are just saving face", that's it. No need to go further. Promise you the posts following wont be that much more original or deep than my half ass prediction.
 

Parker Petrov

Member
Nov 1, 2017
452
I also don't think 399 is happening. I think 449 and 499 is best case scenario haha. Let's see what sony does tomorrow

I fully agree Sony has no reason to go any lower. They would just be giving money away otherwise. You have your most ardent hardcore fans buying consoles at launch. They won't bat an eye at those prices. Once you sell through the early adopters and the more enthusiast crowd then you can drop the price down. However, you can't ever raise the price.
 

19thCenturyFox

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,309
Interesting that they are not denying the bad yields. Would be easy to deny the whole story, not one specific part of it.
 

AGN

Alt Account
Banned
May 13, 2020
279
So, yields at one point probably hit 50% but they are up now and shouldn't have a problem hitting their 15 million target.
 

Angie

Best Avatar Thread Ever!
Member
Nov 20, 2017
39,443
Kingdom of Corona
Let me cut you the trouble of going past this post. The following 10 pages will be filled with posts claiming that "Sony is lying" or "They are just saving face", that's it. No need to go further. Promise you the posts following wont be that much more original or deep than my half ass prediction.
Sony is a publically traded company they can't lie about this.
I'm sure most people here are aware of that lol
 

wartime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,070
Washington DC
So the quote is:

"We have not changed the production number for PlayStation 5 since the start of mass production."

So does that mean they never upped it like the previous report said? Confusing.
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
I agree it's RNDA 2. The question he's asking, is it the same RNDA2. DukeBlueBall made a good point about some of Blue Nugroho's earlier posts, so I'm suspect they are the same.

But youneverknow :)

The question he is asking (I think he is implying actually) is stupid and shows a total lack of understanding of the subject.

Yes the XsX, XsS and the PS5 have the exact same architecture, which is RDNA2.

Now does the Series X/S have the exact same featureset as the PS5 and vice versa? No, probably not.

'Why not? They are all RDNA2 right? '
Well yes they are but the SoCs are completely customized to the wishes of Sony and Microsoft.

Sony or Microsoft might think a feature that's usually part of RDNA2 is not needed because they have their own feature in mind that more or less does the same thing. Or they might even have a completely different solution (feature) for a certain issue and might ask AMD to implement said feature.

TLDR: these chips are customized and even though the Xbox and PS5 might have certain features that the other does not, does not make one 'more' or 'less' RDNA2 than the other.
 

Chamon

Member
Feb 26, 2019
1,221
If you think about it, it was very strange that they decided to increase production in first instance if they yields were being so bad...
 

Xeonidus

“Fuck them kids.”
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,277
So the quote is:

"We have not changed the production number for PlayStation 5 since the start of mass production."

So does that mean they never upped it like the previous report said? Confusing.
Sony never denied the 15 million report. Still might not be true as that clearly didn't give them bad press compared to this but it could mean that 15 million is indeed still possible. Doubt it though. That's a lot.
 
May 7, 2020
2,819

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,072
Mods lock this one and lets all go argue in the Denial thread lmao this is so ridiculous but entertaining.
 

Fezan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,274
He has been right about stuff that was already right.
He takes the correct info and then go conclusion hunting.

He believed PS5 has only software RT and used Github/etc to prove it when we all knew not all the info is complete.



This part is actually not correct. Xb1 SOC is 370mm+. It is bigger than Xsx (~360mm) and much bigger than PS5's SOC (~300m).
Again mistake on my part. Meant to type smaller number of CU
 

Brohan

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,544
Netherlands
Why am I not surprised by Sony denying this report. Alot of that report seemed lost in translation or didn't make much sense in the first place.
 
Feb 23, 2019
1,426
Although your post is kinda hyperbolic and I don't agree with your price conclusions because I think Sony is willing to eat the extra cost. However, as someone who has been closely paying attention to the tech side of these consoles this post has a lot of truth to it. Sony going with a 2.23 clock was completely shocking. To support BC, Sony went fast and narrow and, from a business perspective, it's looking to be the wrong gamble. I think when we look back on these consoles in like 5 years, the PS5 technology design will be considered something of a disappointment. Not a disappointment for most gamers, but a disappointment for people who analyze this stuff from a tech and business perspective. It isn't all bad news - the one possible upside for the PS5 is long term they may be able to more aggressively reduce costs than the XSX due to the lower CU count, etc.

That said, I think Sony is willing to eat these costs now to sell a ton of consoles, and for most gamers none of this will really matter. However, I think Sony biz folks and shareholders aren't loving the PS5 design right now and I suspect Sony is regretting some of their decisions.

IMO, of course.

whether it's a disappointment depends entirely on if yields are specific to the high clocks and whether it's a temporary issue

if they get yields up to normal ranges then their design looks pretty brilliant

Bottom line we don't know how yields compare to XSX
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
It's so crazy I'm inclined not to believe it's true. It's a lot to unpack.

I think more precision questions may be in order - is it 50% of what they expected? 50% of the total wafer sheet? Those may be very different numbers. The reason chips have CU's turned off is to try and increase the yields but honestly that number generally represents the expected loss. So if you have 2 disabled CU's on a, say 38CU (getting you 36 good CU's) - you're expecting 5%-6% failure rates (this is an oversimplification but you get the point). Launch yield issues may represent 10%, maybe 20% on the high end.

50% failures basically doubles the cost of the chip per box - which is the single most expensive part of the BOM.

My tendency when I hear a number like this is to not believe it. However, they are clocking that CU pretty high and depending on what you believe about how/when in the process that may have happened, it could have proven to be a problem in manufacturing.

I guess we'll find out more tomorrow!

Nice! Your instincts were right.

11 million consoles, $449 and 50% defect rate for the SOC didn't add up at all.
 
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19thCenturyFox

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,309
Its hardly trolling. Deflection is an art.

Deflecting what exactly? It's clever wording on Sony's part but they are not denying the bad yields when they easily could. That's all I'm saying. They aren't lying, they are not even misleading.

I have no allegiance to plastic boxes, I know that's hard for most people who are really into console wars to grasp but it's true. Not that writing that out will convince any true warrior battling for their sacred cause.

I stand by what I wrote. The statement doesn't deny the bad yields and is cleverly worded to deny one specifc part of the story.