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CGiRanger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,517
I was wondering what the point of the week delay in the Switch version launch was since there's no way a week was going to change anything there. Sad to see it might have been purposefully done to avoid bad reviews.

I got the copy, but I won't be playing it until I hear better impressions of performance.
 

@dedmunk

Banned
Oct 11, 2018
3,088
It makes sense that the other versions are running better since the Switch transitioned from the Wii U during development for this game. Not sure how big the developer is but if they are small then it could have just been too much work to get it up to scratch.

They probably should have just delayed it until it was running to a better standard, but then people (incl. kickstarters) might have gotten angry about it. I'm sure people would have accepted a well reasoned explanation though.

I didn't back it and was looking forward to it, but I won't bother buying until it's fixed.
 

Lusamine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,047
It makes sense that the other versions are running better since the Switch transitioned from the Wii U during development for this game. Not sure how big the developer is but if they are small then it could have just been too much work to get it up to scratch.

They probably should have just delayed it until it was running to a better standard, but then people (incl. kickstarters) might have gotten angry about it. I'm sure people would have accepted a well reasoned explanation though.

I didn't back it and was looking forward to it, but I won't bother buying until it's fixed.
Judging how people were so quick to forgive them, they probably made the right move. It's sad how they are getting away with such a dirty trick.
 

@dedmunk

Banned
Oct 11, 2018
3,088
Judging how people were so quick to forgive them, they probably made the right move. It's sad how they are getting away with such a dirty trick.

? Are you referring to them delaying the game 1 week in order to avoid bad reviews?

Wouldn't the right move have been to delay it longer and get it working better?
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,304
Instead it arrives late and unoptimised. There are more impressive games technically on Switch, including indie titles, which have no where near the same issues.
The choice to go 3D was always baffling to me. How can games like Iconoclasts, Monster Boy, Hollow Knight and such look so damn great and run 60fps on the Switch with what I have to assume is a smaller team and budget?
 

VHS

Alt account
Banned
May 8, 2019
834
Just played about an hour on switch, plays pretty decent. Definitely needs some updates, and going 3d instead of 2d feels like a mistake. Little bit of input lag is definitely felt and the animations feel slow.

Think the outrage is kind of overstated, game needs work but so far it is completely playable.
 

poncle

Member
Oct 28, 2017
419
London
"You can expect a number of small updates that will improve different areas of the game"

So, will they just cut some effects in the worst areas? Remove some elements from the rooms that take 15 seconds to load?
This doesn't sound good, there must be a big underlying issue to have a game like this to be such a resource hog and it doesn't look like it will be addressed
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
I put in a couple hours last night (planning a video later this week). I only played in portable mode but the frame-rate was mostly a steady 30fps.

The input lag and super low res were much more noticeable, though. Loading is longer too.

"You can expect a number of small updates that will improve different areas of the game"

So, will they just cut some effects in the worst areas? Remove some elements from the rooms that take 15 seconds to load?
This doesn't sound good, there must be a big underlying issue to have a game like this to be such a resource hog and it doesn't look like it will be addressed
I think this is a side effect of developing a UE4 game for PC and other consoles first and foremost.
 

Lusamine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,047
? Are you referring to them delaying the game 1 week in order to avoid bad reviews?

Wouldn't the right move have been to delay it longer and get it working better?
They get some Switch sales and (undeserved) goodwill. Even if their next game could be skeptical on whatever platform, people can remember, "wow they really listen to community and respond quickly". With how consumers attack companies nowadays, this seems valuable.
 
Apr 21, 2018
6,969
I put in a couple hours last night (planning a video later this week). I only played in portable mode but the frame-rate was mostly a steady 30fps.

The input lag and super low res were much more noticeable, though. Loading is longer too.


I think this is a side effect of developing a UE4 game for PC and other consoles first and foremost.


Pretty much. Games like Hollow Knight were delayed (IIRC) for optimization.

If you ask me, the game looks ugly on all platforms. Going 3D models was a bad artistic choice from ever piece of media I've seen.

By the way I love your channel!
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,586
Does the PS4 version have that problem where you'll jump up to a new room and it will load, then you'll fall back through the jump you made, and it will load again, and then you have to jump back up for another load?

Because how did they think that was okay
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
13,715
a Socialist Utopia
I was flipping between buying the Switch version or the PC version. Glad I went with the sublime PC version. Portability isn't worth it when the game runs and looks like crap.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
Pretty much. Games like Hollow Knight were delayed (IIRC) for optimization.

If you ask me, the game looks ugly on all platforms. Going 3D models was a bad artistic choice from ever piece of media I've seen.

By the way I love your channel!
Thanks!

Having played a chunk of it, I actually think it looks visually nice most of the time. I'd also have preferred 2D but this works for me - it's one of the better looking "2.5D" games I've seen in a while.

Unfortunately, the low res of the Switch version makes for a rather muddy looking experience overall.

I'm not sure how much can be done here - the frame-rate isn't that unsteady (at least early on) - it's just that it's 30fps which is always going to be the reality here. 60fps with UE4 is possible but the game would have had to be designed from the ground up for Switch taking that into consideration at all times (my guess). The lag is more of an issue for me.

I suspect they might find ways to clean up slow down below 30fps but the rest remains to be seen.

Does the PS4 version have that problem where you'll jump up to a new room and it will load, then you'll fall back through the jump you made, and it will load again, and then you have to jump back up for another load?
It's faster on PS4 when moving between areas that require loading and it only happens once. It's much more noticeable on Switch.
 

Giolon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,092
Does the PS4 version have that problem where you'll jump up to a new room and it will load, then you'll fall back through the jump you made, and it will load again, and then you have to jump back up for another load?

Because how did they think that was okay
Most places where this type of transition is the case I found that only the first transition loads, then it's in memory and the two areas load out interchangeably if you go back and forth or up and down on PS4 Pro. Ultra handy for farming.
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
I guess I won't buy that game on Switch then. And definitely not full priced, as pretty much everyone agrees that the game needed a few more months of optimization.

I'll wait 6 months or so for patches and a sale. I'm done beta-testing full-priced games.
 

Laserbeam

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,452
Canada
My copy arrived today and though I only got to play an hour, I'm one of those people who think it's not bad and perfectly playable and I had reasonalbe expectations on the visuals being downgraded. (I'm also one of those people who don't think it's an especially good looking game on any platform, but that's another story.)

I wouldn't argue that it's not un-optimized though, because it clearly is and that sucks,

If they are truly dedicated to improving the Switch experience I'm all for it.

the input lag is the strangest and most off putting issue though, because I personally only really notice it on jumps and it's something that almost feels weirdly intentional (I adjusted to it very quickly) but if people who have played multiple versions are saying it isn't then I have to believe them.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
There have been some games that did UE4 on Switch well. Travis Strikes Again notably runs a rock solid 60 fps on Switch even when there's a lot of crazy particle effects on screen, even Digital Foundry praised it in their analysis. Especially impressive when considering how Grasshopper usually sucks at optimization. (Video is 30 but just to give a picture of the action). Pretty sure they even said they're shooting for performance first for NMH3 while still using UE4.


They key with Travis and Yoshi's Crafted World is that they were very carefully designed for Switch from the beginning. Bloodstained has been in development for a long time and was always multi-platform. 60fps was never going to happen with the Switch version of the game but hopefully they can solve the other issues.
 

Akumasama

Member
Nov 8, 2017
542
Italy
Muddy textures and inconsistent framerate

Edit: Input lag and various other missing content and bugs. Not sure why the Switch version wasn't the target platform. Games like this typically sell best on Switch.
Switch didn't even exist when they started working on the game, how could that be the "main target"?
I think the game will sell decently on PC as well, despite the widespread piracy.

Wonder what people are talking about when they say the game "needs a lot of work in general".
Are you just talking about parts of the game you simply don't like? (the recycle in the last zones, the art design not being always compelling)
Because stuff like that is not changing with patches.

If you're talking about bugs or hiccups or problems the Steam version, which clearly was their main target (as in: the version they used as a base for development, then converting it for all other formats) works pretty much flawlessly from day one, and all additional content is already available instead of having to wait a few weeks like on the other formats.
 

bounchfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,663
Muricas
I really want to play more but I think I'll give it a couple weeks for them to get a patch or two out hopefully. might try completing hollow knight in the meantime and get un-lost lol
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
I was just told that the install sizes for the game are around 8GB on all systems and possibly a bit larger on Switch? Sounds like the assets are identical; maybe designing Switch assets to a lower level of detail (720p is like 1/9 the pixels of 4k so it's not necessarily something that would be noticed due to lower res rendering) could make a big difference in performance. Obviously that's not something we're likely to see in a patch...

fGamsuN.png
 
Last edited:

weekev

Is this a test?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,215
Switch will always be the bar none worst version compared to the others but making it at least good on its own merits would be nice.

There's two areas on X1X with weird out of place slowdown I hope they fix some time but 99% of it's perfect so I say all hands on deck for the Switch is a good idea right now.
I think it's subjective. If it runs competently but not quite as well as the other 2, the portability factor could make it the best version for a lot of people. However if the compromises are as bad as they are atm then those compromises mean having to play in your living room is worth it for a version that doesn't run like shit.
 

Deleted member 2791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,054
I was having a fun time for the first hour or so but now I'm hesitant to continue now or wait to the first few updates.
 

SiG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,485
They key with Travis and Yoshi's Crafted World is that they were very carefully designed for Switch from the beginning. Bloodstained has been in development for a long time and was always multi-platform. 60fps was never going to happen with the Switch version of the game but hopefully they can solve the other issues.
I have a feeling this is the result of perhaps porting the code originally meant for Wii U (it was one of the stretch goals) to Nintendo Switch. And yes, Armchair was trying to get Unreal Engine 4 running on the Wii U...

But you are correct that it wasn't built from the ground up with Switch in mind. That said, you mentioned what could be done: Hard work such as re-engineering assets and redoing some of the effects work to use "baked" tricks and the like (rain effects for instance, and the water animation on the first section can be "canned" in that its not something done in real-time but just a looping animation played as a texture). The tools Panic Button/Iron Galaxy/Virtuos and the like are likely no different when it comes to UE4, and it all comes down to smart implementation. From the looks of things, they just removed certain effects/assets until it was chugging along enough without properly optimizing certain code.
 

Imitatio

Member
Feb 19, 2018
14,560
I don't care about this game anymore.

There are so many other very well made Switch games and ports out there I can choose from.
This. Especially within the metroidvania genre, there are a lot of great (indie) games.
Still hoping for a 2D metroid on Switch as well, which more likely than not would blow this out of the water (at least in terms of performance and presentation).
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
I'll skip it altogether.

At least we got the superb Circle Curse of the Moon.

People saying that Switch should've been the target platform forget that Switch didn't existed back when this game was Kickstarted. Heck, Armature was going to port it originally to Wii U.
A lot of Kickstarters were heavily backed by thirsty Wii U owners since nobody was giving the platform any games.

They mostly got screwed in the end, the games were moved to Switch but usually arrived late on it or not at all. Yooka-Laylee, a game from a former Nintendo 64 tradition, was already selling for peanuts on PS4Bone when the Switch version finally arrived. With this one I guess those thirsty Nintendo fans had to move to a new platform then got screwed with the product, Yooka at least they did a great job on the port.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
A lot of Kickstarters were heavily backed by thirsty Wii U owners since nobody was giving the platform any games.

They mostly got screwed in the end, the games were moved to Switch but usually arrived late on it or not at all. Yooka-Laylee, a game from a former Nintendo 64 tradition, was already selling for peanuts on PS4Bone when the Switch version finally arrived.
There's not really a good solution there. They weren't going to delay the game just for Switch owners and the team spent most of the year working hard on porting it to Switch. It was a difficult port and they poured a lot of time and money into it. Not sure what they could do there. Selling it for a low price wasn't really an option.

Many of these issues stem from the situation with Nintendo - Wii U failed prematurely and was killed off as a result. So anyone developing for it was left in a bind - it would NEVER have made sense to release this game for Wii U in today's climate and, as a UE4 title, it wouldn't have been good anyways if they could even get it working at all.

Then the Switch winds up appearing mid-generation and a lot of games already in development didn't take it into account. Due to its relative lack of power, it's not a trivial thing to convert games for it. Bloodstained isn't that bad when you consider everything around it.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I get being upset but I don't really get the "I'm never buying this game ever" kind of posts.

It's reviewing well on other systems and they've promised to improve the Switch version. Seems a lot better of a situation then some ports which are just never fixed period.

Again I get feeling burned but I don't understand washing your hands of the whole thing.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
There's not really a good solution there. They weren't going to delay the game just for Switch owners and the team spent most of the year working hard on porting it to Switch. It was a difficult port and they poured a lot of time and money into it. Not sure what they could do there. Selling it for a low price wasn't really an option.

Many of these issues stem from the situation with Nintendo - Wii U failed prematurely and was killed off as a result. So anyone developing for it was left in a bind - it would NEVER have made sense to release this game for Wii U in today's climate and, as a UE4 title, it wouldn't have been good anyways if they could even get it working at all.

Then the Switch winds up appearing mid-generation and a lot of games already in development didn't take it into account. Due to its relative lack of power, it's not a trivial thing to convert games for it. Bloodstained isn't that bad when you consider everything around it.
That's absolutely fair for regular games. But kickstarter backers paid for a game to get made for the platform they bought it on, and that changed from under them. And Switch has been out for over two years now, it's not new.

The fact Wii U (and VITA!) versions were planned means they should have planned the game from the start to be able to run on lower spec hardware though, so the Switch being less powerful is not an excuse IMO.

Hey maybe their stats say Wii U backers were a small minority and Wii U backers who moved to Switch were an even smaller minority and so the ROI would not be worth it. Mercenary but understandable in that case. But I have a feeling in a lot of these cases they were not a small minority and were possibly even a majority in some cases.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
That's absolutely fair for regular games. But kickstarter backers paid for a game to get made for the platform they bought it on, and that changed from under them. And Switch has been out for over two years now, it's not new.

The fact Wii U (and VITA!) versions were planned means they should have planned the game from the start to be able to run on lower spec hardware though, so the Switch being less powerful is not an excuse IMO.

Hey maybe their stats say Wii U backers were a small minority and Wii U backers who moved to Switch were an even smaller minority and so the ROI would not be worth it. Mercenary but understandable in that case. But I have a feeling in a lot of these cases they were not a small minority and were possibly even a majority in some cases.
I just don't think it's a good idea. The game would have been hamstrung by Wii U and Vita. It could have spoiled the whole project. It's also clear that the game was much uglier in the past and has improved dramatically. I can't imagine people really wanting Wii U to basically hold back the whole project if it meant an inferior experience for everyone.

The original dev team was never going to work on Wii U anyways. Armature was set to do it and Vita which I always found crazy.
 

Imitatio

Member
Feb 19, 2018
14,560
I get being upset but I don't really get the "I'm never buying this game ever" kind of posts.

It's reviewing well on other systems and they've promised to improve the Switch version. Seems a lot better of a situation then some ports which are just never fixed period.

Again I get feeling burned but I don't understand washing your hands of the whole thing.
The Switch version won't drastically change from what we have now without a complete technical overhaul, which more than likely won't happen. With how they handled the whole Switch release (including the scummy seeming delay?!), I don't feel like they deserve my money / time. It's rather simple, really. Apart from that, I only use my PS4 nowadays if I absolutely have to (e.g. for Cyberpunk 2077 or FF7R next year). If midsize devs want my support, they'll in turn have to support the Switch in a meaningful way. From what I can gather all around this is not the case with this title, so that's that.
I don't have anything against the team doing this game apart from that.

Also doesn't mean I'll never touch another (Switch) release from them, if done right. But this one definitely is a skip. Might seem harsh, but I'm personally just following through on my selfset principles in this case; neither time nor money are infinite, so every purchase has to pass certain criteria.

It's quite sad and somewhat annoying that this of all the upcoming games is the one to disappoint in such a way.
 

D.Lo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,348
Sydney
The original dev team was never going to work on Wii U anyways. Armature was set to do it and Vita which I always found crazy.
Well yes that's the core of it. A terrible idea that went even worse than expected. I mean, the VITA, come on.

Some transparency on what percentage of backers went for what platform (as well as changes of platform) would be fascinating.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
I already wasn't enamoured with it from the little I played of the PC version. On the Switch it looks like a proper hot mess. I have no idea why they thought this was acceptable, why they overpromised on a Switch version and how they thought anyone was going to make decent ports on Wii U and Vita before. All in all, glad I went with my first instinct and didn't back it. Enjoyed Curse of the Moon though!
 

bytesized

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,882
Amsterdam
Just saw some videos and wow, this is one of the ugliest games on switch. Actually, it also looks quite bad on PC and other consoles, the models are very bad and animations super awkward.
 

Pokémon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,681
Yeah I will certainly not buy that game and keep playing Curse of the Moon instead. I was not a fan of this game's artstyle to begin with but these technical issues especially the the huge input delay put the game very low on my wishlist.
 

Ganondolf

Member
Jan 5, 2018
1,052
Not sure why this game is having issues. It does not look graphically intensive (I don't own the game just seen videos). Unreal 4 is one of the better running engines on switch.
 

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
I always find it ironic when people say the performance is "good enough", only for the devs to suddenly come out and say performance is bad.

("Good enough" attitude will never get us a complete 60fps gaming experience on all systems across the board! We already played in 60fps in 1995 - why play in 30fps in 2019?)
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
I'm really at the point where I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I'm 6 hours into the game in handheld mode and I think it looks good (not amazing), runs decently and I have experienced no issues like input lag, long loading times or crashes. The only major complaint I have outside of the jank present in every version (like short jumps to rooms above bringing you back down instantly or missing text) is that the character models look very blurry, while the rest of the things on screen look fine.

Either my Switch is somehow super powered, I somehow don't notice horrible input lag, or some of these issues aren't affecting every copy of the game.
 

Pilgrimzero

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,129
You're defending this but have you actually played the Switch version? Input lag and sub 30 fps and resolution made me buy the Steam version immediately.

I won't be backing a game again after Shenmue III and now this.

Not defending, just joking.

Yes I do own the Switch version and have had zero problems so far. Fantastic game and a lot of fun.
 

bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
I'm really at the point where I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I'm 6 hours into the game in handheld mode and I think it looks good (not amazing), runs decently and I have experienced no issues like input lag, long loading times or crashes. The only major complaint I have outside of the jank present in every version (like short jumps to rooms above bringing you back down instantly or missing text) is that the character models look very blurry, while the rest of the things on screen look fine.

Either my Switch is somehow super powered, I somehow don't notice horrible input lag, or some of these issues aren't affecting every copy of the game.

Occam's razor says it's likely a tolerance or intolerance for lag, as the data is the same for everyone and there exists no super powered Switch.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
Occam's razor says it's likely a tolerance or intolerance for lag, as the data is the same for everyone and there exists no super powered Switch.

The thing is, I personally generally do notice input lag when it's as bad as people are saying here. I'm really not noticing any at all in this game, at least in handheld mode.

Some people have said it's a pro controller issue and I don't have one of those so maybe that's the problem?