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molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
Your cynical defeatism is helping corporations, it's not helping anyone. If you don't see the point of boycotting, what's your solution? Or you don't want anything to change? Be honest.
The "solution" from a consumer perspective would be a full on boycott of the all the corporations that roll over for China — or at the very least, the major ones that affect them the most. That would leave me in a difficult position with an uncomfortable lifestyle and a low standard of living for my family. I'm not willing to do that. Neither are the other people in here who are unwilling to give up their smartphones.

Boycotting Blizzard accomplishes nothing for the people of China. It just makes some people feel better about themselves. I don't see the point.
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,518
I'm not willing to do that. Neither are the other people in here who are unwilling to give up their smartphones.

Boycotting Blizzard accomplishes nothing for the people of China. It just makes some people feel better about themselves. I don't see the point.
I mean, surely choosing to do SOMETHING, even a little, is better than doing nothing at all. It's not just about "feeling better about themselves." It seems pretty odd to me to take the stance that if you aren't willing to boycott every single thing that China has a hand in, that boycotting one (or a few) is a waste of time. Sending a message to one corporation is better than sending none at all.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
Not sure I buy that, a lot of games have free updates without microtransactions.
It's normally the AAA games that for some reason need more money for ongoing content.

because they are the more expensive games to develop. Look im not justifying shit like loot boxes and gambling mechanics. But stuff that you know what item you are getting when you pay I dont see a problem with. Ive bought stuff in destiny 2 because it looks cool and also supports the developer as they make each season. And again the engrams that are the loot boxes only give out stuff from previous years, not this current year. So they are not necessary to buy and im pretty sure not many do as you get them so freaking often.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
and that would stagger out the content too much. Because they would have to develop the dlc. sell it..and then wait for enough to come in to justify developing more.
What are you talking about?

This is only relevant for some free to play mobile game or some shit.
With recurring income they know a baseline of what they can afford to develop at any given time and thus can push content out faster.
Faster? Faster? This is not the word you're looking for. The word you're looking for is profitability, or sustainability or safely(from a profitability standpoint), but I fail to see how speed comes into play here.

Look, it's not that no game should use microtransactions or that they shouldn't be an option, it's the the mechanic is not needed, nor wanted, with every business model.

And many game publishers shove that fact down your throat while you refuse to believe it. There's lots of games where the DLC is finished before launch, how exactly does that baseline, which hasn't been established yet as the game hadn't launched yet, help them decide how much and how soon they can pump out their already finished DLC? Then there's the games that have planned DLC after launch, how, again, does that DLC help them develop the DLC that they've already promised the consumer and decide when to release it when they've already given the release dates?

Most games don't even need more content after 6 months or so in a lot of cases who even gives a shit about the speed of content? Were people bitching about Spiderman, Horizon Zero Dawn or the Witcher 3's content schedule? Would it have been better had they constantly sold more shit inbetween?

The war against microtransactions isn't so much that they shouldn't exist, it's to stop forcing those shit mechanics on every genre of game, in every business model, regardless of need and regardless of future support.
The "solution" from a consumer perspective would be a full on boycott of the all the corporations that roll over for China — or at the very least, the major ones that affect them the most. That would leave me in a difficult position with an uncomfortable lifestyle and a low standard of living for my family. I'm not willing to do that. Neither are the other people in here who are unwilling to give up their smartphones.

Boycotting Blizzard accomplishes nothing for the people of China. It just makes some people feel better about themselves. I don't see the point.
The argument against Blizzard and the NBA and the like isn't about the people of China, it's about you and I. It's a different discussion than the human right's abuses in China. What we're seeing now are western companies enforcing Chinese government desires on people across the world in their own countries to stay in China's good graces. That's pathetic. We're not talking about China anymore in reality, we're talking about domestic or global issues where companies don't want China to get hurt about tweets made in the USA or see something embarrassing on a global stream and shit.
 
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Deleted member 26746

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,161
If Blizzard closed tomorrow I would have expend 0$ on them in my entire life... and if they close in 20 years I guess would be the same.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,235
Yeah, he isn't wrong.
This was a lot of hot air, without saying anything. Never been interested in Overwatch, love Diablo 1 and 2 though and spent ages playing SC 1, WC2+3, WoW and SC2. Blizzard once was one of those companies that could be trusted blindly. Whatever came out and had the Blizzard Name was a guaranteed good game. Now, no thank you.
The downfall began with D3 and the Auction House for me. Meanwhile, I can live without their products: Hearthstone, Heroes, Overwatch, Diablo Mobile. They are chasing trends and money schemes instead of making games that interest me. My current hype for D4 is zero and that's strange. GJ Blizzard, you are not what you once was. Your "apology" is just another part of the puzzle and makes ignoring you even more easy.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
Look, it's not that no game should use microtransactions or that they shouldn't be an option, it's the the mechanic is not needed, nor wanted, with every business model.

And many game publishers shove that fact down your throat while you refuse to believe it. There's lots of games where the DLC is finished before launch, how exactly does that baseline, which hasn't been established yet as the game hadn't launched yet, help them decide how much and how soon they can pump out their already finished DLC? Then there's the games that have planned DLC after launch, how, again, does that DLC help them develop the DLC that they've already promised the consumer and decide when to release it when they've already given the release dates?

Most games don't even need more content after 6 months or so in a lot of cases who even gives a shit about the speed of content? Were people bitching about Spiderman, Horizon Zero Dawn or the Witcher 3's content schedule? Would it have been better had they constantly sold more shit inbetween?

The war against microtransactions isn't so much that they shouldn't exist, it's to stop forcing those shit mechanics on every genre of game, in every business model, regardless of need and regardless of future support.
its mainly games that are online and will be doing some sort of seasonal content that need MTX support. Fortnite, destiny2, apex legends ect.

Pure single player games like Assassins creed and stuff like that I wholeheartedly agree do not need microtransactions at all.

Call of duty is shying away from microtransactions in favor of the battle pass and this keeps the community together rather than stagger them due to map packs that have to be purchased, so thats also ok in my book.

one game that came out recently that is a good showcase for not needing microtransactions is the outer worlds. Its a purely single player game so no it does not need any residual income. But ongoing games that have ongoing stories and new content added needs recurring income to develop that content.
 

HomespunFur

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,271
because they are the more expensive games to develop. Look im not justifying shit like loot boxes and gambling mechanics. But stuff that you know what item you are getting when you pay I dont see a problem with. Ive bought stuff in destiny 2 because it looks cool and also supports the developer as they make each season. And again the engrams that are the loot boxes only give out stuff from previous years, not this current year. So they are not necessary to buy and im pretty sure not many do as you get them so freaking often.

They also have a much larger audience and charge more money.
And like if you are okay with them then fine but saying Jim needs to stop talking about them is dumb, he makes a lot of good points on why they are deserve criticism.
I would much rather one person arguing against them than no-one
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
I mean, surely choosing to do SOMETHING, even a little, is better than doing nothing at all. It's not just about "feeling better about themselves." It seems pretty odd to me to take the stance that if you aren't willing to boycott every single thing that China has a hand in, that boycotting one (or a few) is a waste of time. Sending a message to one corporation is better than sending none at all.
I disagree because I legitimately do not think it's doing anything.

Getting to the root of it... Blizzard's transgression here is tame in the grand scheme of things. They banned someone for a year for speaking ill of the Chinese government. Shitty, but Apple and Google provide the Chinese government with the personal texts, emails, etc. of political dissidents whenever they are asked. They publicly deny giving the government a full-on "backdoor," but they store Chinese customer data on co-branded servers run by a local firm with strong ties to the CPC.

I'm not doing shit about that... but I'm going to boycott a video game developer because they suspended a guy for a year? I just don't see the point.
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
The "solution" from a consumer perspective would be a full on boycott of the all the corporations that roll over for China — or at the very least, the major ones that affect them the most. That would leave me in a difficult position with an uncomfortable lifestyle and a low standard of living for my family. I'm not willing to do that. Neither are the other people in here who are unwilling to give up their smartphones.

Boycotting Blizzard accomplishes nothing for the people of China. It just makes some people feel better about themselves. I don't see the point.

Speak for yourself. I'd 100% be on board with a full on cut with China. And, yes, that includes any future purchases of ANY product made in China.

Your "lifestyle" would still be far better than most of the worlds. Frankly, the fact the the West in general, and the U.S. in particular, care more about comfort than human rights is why it's going down the toilet.

So, yeah, you're right, a Blizzard ban isn't going to do much, because the average American is too fucking selfish to push for what really needs to be done, but some people feel like it's better than nothing.
 

TheOnlyJ

Member
Oct 29, 2019
615
Guys, let's just skip Diablo IV not for human rights, but because it is obvious they are doubling down on the things that sucked about Diablo 3.

Or you can pay 60 plus for server failure at launch and clown-outfitted players all over your single player game, I guess. They will fix it in an update a year after launch.
 

Seirith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,311
Life isn't this black and white. This is an unfair statement to make, and frankly has some really gross undertones.

With this statement, you're also implying that people who are currently working for Blizzard ALSO don't care about human rights as much as...feeding their families? Your stance seems to be black and white, so using your logic here, anyone still working for Blizzard doesn't care about human rights, because they're still supporting the company through creating product (which is the job they have to support themselves or their family).

It's not a fair conclusion to say someone who buys a video game doesn't care about human rights. There are other ways to fight for human rights, and as much as anyone wants to believe it, Blizzard ultimately has zero impact on China or Hong Kong, politically, or their human rights. Boycotting Blizzard doesn't help Hong Kong, and Blizzard standing by Hong Kong doesn't help Hong Kong. It is okay to boycott, and it is okay to not boycott. It is not okay to tell someone they are oppressing other peoples through buying a video game.

Blizzards actions were and still are wrong, and reprehensible, but to reduce this to a black and white "you support human rights or you don't" is entirely unfair to a lot of people. There are better ways to have this discussion than to paint people as soulless villains who don't have empathy just because they buy a video game.

Thank you for this, I 100% agree.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
Speak for yourself. I'd 100% be on board with a full on cut with China. And, yes, that includes any future purchases of ANY product made in China.

Your "lifestyle" would still be far better than most of the worlds. Frankly, the fact the the West in general, and the U.S. in particular, care more about comfort than human rights is why it's going down the toilet.

So, yeah, you're right, a Blizzard ban isn't going to do much, because the average American is too fucking selfish to push for what really needs to be done, but some people feel like it's better than nothing.
It's not just products made in China. It's companies that acquiesce to the Chinese government. That includes every major OS provider (mobile or otherwise), which allow the CPC to spy on its citizens through their own networks.

A "full cut" with China means you basically won't have a phone or computer, and refuse to work for any company that does. Good luck.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,378
"People get fired for poor sales" is an incredibly funny argument considering Act/Blizz laid off hundreds of people despite record revenue.
 

Seirith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,311
Speak for yourself. I'd 100% be on board with a full on cut with China. And, yes, that includes any future purchases of ANY product made in China.

Your "lifestyle" would still be far better than most of the worlds. Frankly, the fact the the West in general, and the U.S. in particular, care more about comfort than human rights is why it's going down the toilet.

So, yeah, you're right, a Blizzard ban isn't going to do much, because the average American is too fucking selfish to push for what really needs to be done, but some people feel like it's better than nothing.

So have you cut out all products made in China?
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
It's not just products made in China. It's companies that acquiesce to the Chinese government. That includes every major OS provider (mobile or otherwise), which allow the CPC to spy on its citizens through their own networks.

A "full cut" with China means you basically won't have a phone or computer, and refuse to work for any company that does. Good luck.

Good luck? My parents, and their parents, and billions of other people lived their entire lives without cell phones and computers.. lol.

Besides, I already have a phone and computer. You don't actually need new ones, you know? I have a house filled with electronics that I only upgrade because I want to, not because it's necessary. And, no, you wouldn't have to cut off mobile providers, etc. because a ban of physical products would cripple China and force a change, not to mention the fact that there are plenty of other countries that would gladly take up their business. We're talking a few years of inconvenience and slightly higher prices for a better world.

I'd throw a fucking party if I woke up tomorrow and all future sales of Chinese products were banned in this country until they get their shit together. And that would ABSOLUTELY make a difference in Hong Kong and everywhere else in China.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
Good luck? My parents, and their parents, and billions of other people lived their entire lives without cell phones and computers.. lol.

Besides, I already have a phone and computer. You don't actually need new ones, you know? I have a house filled with electronics that I only upgrade because I want to, not because it's necessary. And, no, you wouldn't have to cut off mobile providers, etc. because a ban of physical products would cripple China and force a change, not to mention the fact that there are plenty of other countries that would gladly take up their business. We're talking a few years of inconvenience and slightly higher prices for a better world.

I'd throw a fucking party if I woke up tomorrow and all future sales of Chinese products were banned in this country until they get their shit together. And that would ABSOLUTELY make a difference in Hong Kong and everywhere else in China.
You're thinking in terms of physical products and not the companies that enable the Chinese government. A full boycott would mean you no longer interact with any products or services from Google, Apple, or Microsoft.

I don't know what job you have where that is possible in 2019.
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
So have you cut out all products made in China?

One person can't change anything. It has to be a national effort or it's useless. I'm not giving up my current life for nothing, but if we, as a nation, stood up to this I'd do it in a heartbeat. Like I said, it has to be a government decision.

It's just like people who say vote with your wallet, it never works. It needs to be a mandated effort.
You're thinking in terms of physical products and not the companies that enable the Chinese government. A full boycott would mean you no longer interact with any products or services from Google, Apple, or Microsoft.

I don't know what job you have where that is possible in 2019.

I specifically addressed this in my last post. Physical product ban would be more than enough to make a significant change in China.
 

-Devious-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
202
I like Jim in general, and I've appreciated his voice in the Hong Kong discussion, but I do wish he'd acknowledge...


1. Not every product purchase is a political decision. I don't buy toilet paper thinking about the politics of who I'm buying it from or what values I may or may not be supporting.


2. Blizzard is more than a few decisions by its corporate leaders. As an example, my experience has been that Blizzard has the best customer support in the industry. I've also enjoyed their creative development, artistic works, and much of their game designs. I think it's wrong to lose that nuance in the discussion. Most of the company was not involved in the blitzchung discussions or decisions, so why denounce the whole company?


Why does he name "Blizzard is shit" and not "J. Allen Brack is shit" or "X person is shit"?

1. If the toilet paper market had a brand that was as popular as Nike and funded, let's say, the NFL and then banned players for showing solidarity with HK protestors, we would be talking about it.

2. Most corporation operate as a sort of authoritarian government. The employees cant speak out against the companies policies unless the want to get fired or unless they have the financial backing power to take on a billion-dollar company for wrongdoing. Yes, there are some people that don't agree with the company-wide decision but they are not allowed to speak out since its company policy.
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,964
it isn't about them it is about how much flak and coverage this has gotten compared to others here in era and news outlets when you compare the different actions. I just find it interesting why that is (especially here).

This is pretty noticeable. I wasn't educated on anything HK related until Blizzard banned the dude. That led me to research and I'm floored by the shit Apple has done. I've seen others try to bring this up and are met with 2 popular responses;

1. It's my phone though
2. Whataboutisms

People care until its no longer easy. Not buying a new Blizzard game is the easiest protest of all despite them doing nowhere near the damage Apple and other companies have contributed.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
I disagree because I legitimately do not think it's doing anything.

Getting to the root of it... Blizzard's transgression here is tame in the grand scheme of things. They banned someone for a year for speaking ill of the Chinese government. Shitty, but Apple and Google provide the Chinese government with the personal texts, emails, etc. of political dissidents whenever they are asked. They publicly deny giving the government a full-on "backdoor," but they store Chinese customer data on co-branded servers run by a local firm with strong ties to the CPC.

I'm not doing shit about that... but I'm going to boycott a video game developer because they suspended a guy for a year? I just don't see the point.
There's still a difference between actions taken inside a host country, like Apple and Google following Chinese law in China, versus Blizzard or the NBA bowing down to China in Taiwan or the United States. I don't see how some don't see that.

A company should follow the law of the country it is operating in and in China's case, yeah, we probably shouldn't be over there anyways because it makes us complicit, but the idea that they'd suck China's dick outside of China and we should still swallow it is absurd.
 

-Devious-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
202
Why can't they both be true? Doesn't have to be one or the other?

EA, Activision Appear in List of Top 100 Overpaid CEOs

Activision Blizzard's CEO Bobby Kotick's pay is $28,698,375. This is an overpayment of almost $13 million, according to As You Sow's estimates

Yet people still make excuses that they have to support these companies because games are getting more expensive to make while these very employees are being exploited and being paid pennies compared to their bosses.
 

Mudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,115
Tennessee
Agree

I'm still not buying any more if their games. As badly as I want Diablo4, I just can't do it. There are plenty of games to play nowadays and I just can't support their Schtick. I'm sure my measly 1 sale won't make a squat difference but I'll have a clear conscience
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
We really shouldn't forget about this. "I hate blizzard but I'm buying Diablo 4 and OW2, I just don't support them" is the worst kind of statement. Buying their games is literally the meaning of supporting them.

Blizzard does not deserve forgiveness.
Meh boycott them all you want, it's your choice just like mine is buying their games.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
There are major fucking dollar signs to be earned on siding with China. Not only this but they are horrible to many staff. Yes, they are fucking rotten to the core. I still plan to purchase Diablo IV. Yes that's an issue.
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,896
Getting fired due to poor sales isnt a proper way to frame the situation unless its a very small dev team. These gaming behemoths like Ubi, EA, Activision, Rockstar, etc. cant be allowed to gain a hold of public sympathy because they will use it to their advantage. Take Activision, they fired 800 people because they fell 3% short of its forecast at $7.26 billion
it's not these mega corporations that have my sympathy it's the little guys that work for them. More so in this situation is blitzchung, and even more than him is the protesters in Hong Kong. I just don't see how not buying a game is helping them much. I have a lot of respect for those of you who do decide to boycott blizzard don't get me wrong. I just don't have any respect for people insulting others who decide to Buy a game.( I'm not saying you're doing this)
 
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Serule

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,766
Gamers: no censorship!!!
Also gamers: but i won't inconvenience myself in even the tiniest way!!!
 

-Devious-

Member
Oct 25, 2017
202
it's not these mega corporations that have my sympathy it's the little guys that work for them. More so in this situation is blitzchung, and even more than him is the protesters in Hong Kong. I just don't see how not buying a game is helping them much. I have a lot of respect for those of you who do decide to boycott blizzard don't get me wrong. I just don't have any respect for people insulting others who decide to insult others for Buying a game.( I'm not saying you're doing this)
Then stand in solidarity with those employees by casting a light on the exploitation and greed by their employers and while you are at it stand in solidarity with others who are also being exploited and silenced because of their dissent.

 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
And it's not just Blizzard either. We have already seen another powerful American company (The NBA) try and appease the Chinese government when it comes to the Hong Kong situation.


And there are dozens more that would happily do the same in order to stay on good terms with China and keep the money flowing. It's why this entire China situation is as messy as it is. There are no good answers or options because the corruption is so widespread.
Yeah I don't think any of these corporations would sacrifice profit. We shouldn't be surprised by that though. It should be expected.
I mean, surely choosing to do SOMETHING, even a little, is better than doing nothing at all. It's not just about "feeling better about themselves." It seems pretty odd to me to take the stance that if you aren't willing to boycott every single thing that China has a hand in, that boycotting one (or a few) is a waste of time. Sending a message to one corporation is better than sending none at all.
what message is being sent. A small handful of people taking a stand can simply be lumped in with the pool of people "just not into games with demons"

Now if there was a larger than life protest at Blizzcon I can say hey....maybe you're onto something. But I feel like the hardcore blizzard community moved on and won't be thinking about this again until Blitz Chung returns to the tournament scene in 4 months.
 

Opto

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,546
User Banned (3 Days): Antagonizing other users, Accumulated infractions
Blizzard's shoe leather tastes incredible
Blizzard were ok when d3 released as always online real money auction house dumpster fire, blizzard were ok when they stopped releasing single player games, blizzard were ok when acti bought them, the most notorious shameless milking copy pasting bunch in the biz. And now suddenly blizzard aren't ok. Ok.

d4 being always online = autoskip but dat trailer was the best I've seen in years.
Becoming a voluntary branch of the Chinese government's a significant step from all that.
 

Brannon

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,580
User Warned: Antagonizing other users
Blizzard's shoe leather tastes incredible

Oh, we knew that a lot of the push against Blizzard wouldn't last past day one of the Blizzcon, but for it to be as thoroughly slurped like it was is still surprising. Fun to take a stroll on the internet and see who the bootlickers were, though.
 

KernelC

alt account
Banned
Aug 28, 2019
3,561
Meh boycott them all you want, it's your choice just like mine is buying their games.
of course, it's a choice to care about Hong Kong until it stops being cool or a new shiny toy distracts from the real issue.
And it's also a choice not to care when it doesn't involve you
 

SirNinja

One Winged Slayer
Member
Buying a controversial video game is expressing an opinion though.
Indeed. My opinion, however, is that the vast majority of the actual developers of the game do not share the views of Blizzard's upper management. I will choose to support the developers' work, not their bosses' cowardice.

Blizzard's shoe leather tastes incredible
for it to be as thoroughly slurped like it was is still surprising. Fun to take a stroll on the internet and see who the bootlickers were, though.
You may wish to give this a read. Points 2 and 3 in particular.