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Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,898
"Yeah but I'm gonna buy Diablo IV anyway" means 1) you recognize the issue and 2) you've chosen to publicly state it doesn't matter enough to you to deny yourself entertainment (which cannot be by any means construed to be a thing you _need_).
Does it though? Could there be another just as plausible conclusion? Maybe they agree with the issue, don't believe that boycotting a game will do anything to help this cause? possibly donate or do something more than boycotting a game? I'm not saying you're wrong I'm sure some people don't care about the issue and care more about their personal entertainment than the cause, but to say this = that instead of saying this could = that seems wrong to me.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,505
Does it though? Could there be another just as plausible conclusion? Maybe they agree with the issue, don't believe that boycotting a game will do anything to help this cause? possibly donate or do something more than boycotting a game? I'm not saying you're wrong I'm sure some people don't care about the issue and care more about their personal entertainment than the cause, but to say this = that instead of saying this could = that seems wrong to me.

Then they could have made it clear rather than dropping a one liner that they're buying diablo. Seriously, kick rocks with this tone policing shit. There's better posts to go to bat for than the first post in this thread.
 

Dark Ninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,076
User Warned: Drive-by trolling
The controversy made me watch the press conference out of curiosity and then it sold me on Diablo 4. Never played one before but damn it looks good. Ill be playing Overwatch 2 of course aswell.
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,898
Then they should have made it clear rather than dropping a one liner that they're buying diablo. Seriously, kick rocks with this shit.
That I can agree with. I just can't agree with the this = that bullshit. Shaming someone for buying a video game when you have no idea what their opinion on the issue truly is.
 

Cloud-Strife

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 27, 2019
3,140
Played it on kr launch day for about a month or two. Great game... had high ping cos of VPN and unfortunately the game went p2w. Hopefully that is solved when it does come to NA. I play most online mmos/arpgs.. so ill def give it another shot when it comes to NA. Also excited to see what POE 4.0 has in store!

I'm playing the RU Open Beta version right now with the english patch and it's really good. Ping is actually 100% playable for pvp and to dodge PvE stuff.

This game is insane and the main quest so really fun so far.. I'm level 40 right now and just got my ship.

49050787841_a0e0535a00_k.jpg


49050288433_7166bb9f0d_k.jpg
 

Serule

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,766
Does it though? Could there be another just as plausible conclusion? Maybe they agree with the issue, don't believe that boycotting a game will do anything to help this cause? possibly donate or do something more than boycotting a game? I'm not saying you're wrong I'm sure some people don't care about the issue and care more about their personal entertainment than the cause, but to say this = that instead of saying this could = that seems wrong to me.

Yeah I'm sure the people who barged in here to brag about buying D4 are all tore up about it on the inside. They are probably making secret donations to charity to offset their guilt.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,505
That I can agree with. I just can't agree with the this = that bullshit. Shaming someone for buying a video game when you have no idea what their opinion on the issue truly is.

Guy a couple posts back said he's buying diablo IV and was conflicted, but he really wants to play a sequel. I doubt he'll get the same response as the poster everyone's criticizing. That first post was entirely needless and not even all that relevant to the context of the original topic. If this was a hype thread, no one would have batted an eye.
 

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,149
San Jose, Costa Rica
That I can agree with. I just can't agree with the this = that bullshit. Shaming someone for buying a video game when you have no idea what their opinion on the issue truly is.

Thanks for defending that point of view. In my particular case, I really wish I wouldn't be subject of desiring a game from them. But I really REALLY want Diablo IV, and it looks just like what Diablo III should have been.

It is my belief that...me personally buying or not buying the game 3 years from now, will do absolutely nothing to the current state of Blizzard politics and overall China relations.
 

Deleted member 6215

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,087
I've been thinking about this thread and topic on and off all day, and I think I've concluded that we should avoid entertainment that prioritizes that lucrative Chinese market over human rights and generally self-censors to comply with CPC standards. Another big example of this trend is Disney.

God, we sold our fucking souls for cheap mass-produced crap, didn't we?

"Yes, our values got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we bought a lot of cheap entertainment."
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,898
Yeah I'm sure the people who barged in here to brag about buying D4 are also making sizeable donations to charity to offset their guilt.


Yeah I'm sure the people who rushed in here to brag about buying D4 are all tore up about it inside. Probably making secret donations to charity to offset their guilt.
I'll give an example, I am most definitely buying shadow bringers. I was going to post I think I'm still getting shadow bringers until I saw all the back lash and just commented on that. I made my choice after asking my self what I would really be doing by boycotting the game. it wasn't because I care more about shadow bringers. I love MMOs but I could easily just play FFXIV no problem, it's nothing to me if I thought that I would be making a difference. I decided that I'll figure out another way to support hong kong that I believe will actually be doing something.

EDIT: I mean shadowlands lol.
 

MattEnth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
561
San Francisco, CA
I like Jim in general, and I've appreciated his voice in the Hong Kong discussion, but I do wish he'd acknowledge...


1. Not every product purchase is a political decision. I don't buy toilet paper thinking about the politics of who I'm buying it from or what values I may or may not be supporting.


2. Blizzard is more than a few decisions by its corporate leaders. As an example, my experience has been that Blizzard has the best customer support in the industry. I've also enjoyed their creative development, artistic works, and much of their game designs. I think it's wrong to lose that nuance in the discussion. Most of the company was not involved in the blitzchung discussions or decisions, so why denounce the whole company?


Why does he name "Blizzard is shit" and not "J. Allen Brack is shit" or "X person is shit"?
 

Serule

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,766
I'd like to lose weight. Realistically drinking a 44 ounce milkshake won't make any difference. Sluuuuurp
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,505
I'll give an example, I am most definitely buying shadow bringers. I was going to post I think I'm still getting shadow bringers until I saw all the back lash and just commented on that. I made my choice after asking my self what I would really be doing by boycotting the game. it wasn't because I care more about shadow bringers. I love MMOs but I could easily just play FFXIV no problem, it's nothing to me if I thought that I would be making a difference. I decided that I'll figure out another way to support hong kong that I believe will actually be doing something.

I don't see how that's a good example. I wonder why their immediate thought regarding a topic about blizzards response to a social/human rights - related issue was to inform everyone else that they were still purchasing diablo 4. If this were a general topic regarding the game, there would have been a much more tame response. The situation you described seems a bit different.

Edit: post was worded poorly originally, so I edited. sorry
 
Last edited:

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,379
UK
All I'm saying is that boycotting Blizzard doesn't actually make a difference. Blizzard is insignificant compared to the support the CPC gets from companies like Apple, Google, etc. Seeing yourself as slightly higher on the morality scale only serves to make you feel better about yourself. Chinese human rights are unaffected, so it's absurd to me to try and claim moral high ground.
Your cynical defeatism is helping corporations, it's not helping anyone. If you don't see the point of boycotting, what's your solution? Or you don't want anything to change? Be honest.
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,898
I don't see how that's a good example. I wonder why your immediate thought regarding a topic about blizzards response to a social/human rights - related issue was to inform everyone else that you were still purchasing diablo 4.
This is a video game forum. My first thought was this because it is a huge debate right now.
 
Nov 3, 2017
2,223
Anyone surprised or disappointed that gamers forgave Blizzard as soon as they dangled shiny new games in front of them doesn't know the gaming community
 

HomespunFur

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,271
Jim needs to stop criticizing games that have micro transactions to support ongoing content. The initial 60 dollars is NOT going to cover development costs for years and years worth of content. Thats just not going to happen. Residual income is a must when developing ongoing content years after release. HOW they implement micro transactions for diablo 4 is the important part. Let people buy what they want ala fortnite or POE. As long as they dont put lootboxes im sure things will be fine.

lol yeah, let's stop the one person shining a light on how shit microtransactions are to stop doing it.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,379
UK
I like Jim in general, and I've appreciated his voice in the Hong Kong discussion, but I do wish he'd acknowledge...


1. Not every product purchase is a political decision. I don't buy toilet paper thinking about the politics of who I'm buying it from or what values I may or may not be supporting.


2. Blizzard is more than a few decisions by its corporate leaders. As an example, my experience has been that Blizzard has the best customer support in the industry. I've also enjoyed their creative development, artistic works, and much of their game designs. I think it's wrong to lose that nuance in the discussion. Most of the company was not involved in the blitzchung discussions or decisions, so why denounce the whole company?


Why does he name "Blizzard is shit" and not "J. Allen Brack is shit" or "X person is shit"?
Your money doesn't go to the specific people at Blizzard you admire, it goes to the company. You bring up toilet paper as a way to dismiss the importance of purchasing power politically. So yes, your money will usually be a political decision. Hence, the generalisation will happen because your money goes to the system, not the specific individuals you're a fan of.
 

Deleted member 6215

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,087
So are we pretending now that people won't get fired if a game is an utter failure? This is the video game industry we're talking about.

No one gets fired from companies as large as Blizzard that quickly just because one game did poorly. Hell, things could be going very well and they still might lose their jobs. You have no control over any of that - but you do have control over how you spend your money.
 
Sep 15, 2019
187
I'll never understand the mentality of "I don't support X action from a company but they are doing Y thing so I'm gonna go ahead and ignore X so I can enjoy Y."

In this case X is human rights violations and supporting an oppressive regime literally engaging in genocide.

Course I'm someone who stopped supporting Activision-Blizzard when famous traitor Oliver North was brought on stage to sell Call of Duty to the masses like he hadn't sold weapons to America's enemies, engaged in a massive cover up, or anything like that.

I agree with Jim every step of the way on this one (other than he went too hard on Blizzard). Blizzcon was done this year to appease those who were upset by announcing games well before they were ready to be announced and then sitting back to bask in the praise of said announcements all while claiming to be basically helpless in this. It's sad, it's pathetic, and somehow it's working.

With how many games there are on the market I see no reason to make exceptions. Even the idea of "supporting the team" seems ridiculous when Activision-Blizzard pulls in literal billions and these people have established jobs in an established studio. This isn't an Indie studio needing every bit of support they can get and just so happens to be partnered up with a horrible publisher.

Plus the Torchlight guys are doing more of that so this really makes Diablo IV feel pointless beyond "Hey we're going dark and gritty like everyone wanted years ago when we botched Diablo III and needed years to fix it."
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
Yeah, but what is the opinion? Is it that they don't care about human rights? I don't know, it depends on who you are. All I'm saying is buying a blizzard game doesnt mean you don't care about human rights
No it just means that at the very least you care about playing a video game more. Cognitive dissonance is real, but in this context you're fighting an uphill battle to prove that you think human rights are more important than video games. You can't expect the benefit of the doubt here. Actions speak louder than words.
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,898
Come on mate. The debate in this topic isn't whether or not you're buying diablo IV. Don't argue in bad faith with that "it's a video game forum" rubbish. You're about as disingenuous as the guy in the 2nd post.
I don't believe i'm arguing in bad faith here. I don't know what that poster was going to do but I was going to say I am still buying shadowlands. If someone asked me why I would have explained my point of view. This forum like any other had discourse just because I don't agree with you doesn;t mean I'm not being sincere.
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,898
No it just means that at the very least you care about playing a video game more. Cognitive dissonance is real, but in this context you're fighting an uphill battle to prove that you think human rights are more important than video games. You can't expect the benefit of the doubt here. Actions speak louder than words.
I'm not arguing that there isn't cognitive dissonance going on, as I'm sure there is. All I'm saying is that it's jumping to conclusions a bit by saying out right this = that.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,143
NYC
I like Jim in general, and I've appreciated his voice in the Hong Kong discussion, but I do wish he'd acknowledge...


1. Not every product purchase is a political decision. I don't buy toilet paper thinking about the politics of who I'm buying it from or what values I may or may not be supporting.


2. Blizzard is more than a few decisions by its corporate leaders. As an example, my experience has been that Blizzard has the best customer support in the industry. I've also enjoyed their creative development, artistic works, and much of their game designs. I think it's wrong to lose that nuance in the discussion. Most of the company was not involved in the blitzchung discussions or decisions, so why denounce the whole company?


Why does he name "Blizzard is shit" and not "J. Allen Brack is shit" or "X person is shit"?
For your first point, I completetly disagree. You may not view it as political, but it absolutely is and has ramifications beyond your entertainment purchase. Just not thinking about it doesn't change the monetary implicit support of something happening.

That's not a judgement on you or anyone else, it can be very hard even if you're actively trying to be aware of the source and cost of your entertainment or other purchases... but to just say that it has no bearing on the world, what you're exchanging money for is naive. Everything has consequences and thus is political. I could inundate you with examples of child/slave labor/poor working conditions/pollution and poor waste management/etc that your (and mine!) seemingly mundane purchases monetarily support, but I think you and other people are aware of this already anyway, even if only in vague way. And those specific examples are besides the point, the point is that exchange of money supports business practices however they are done. Giving companies your money or not is not just a perfectly valid choice to knowingly support or not a companies policies, but just forgetting about or choosing to not pay attention to these things doesn't suddenly make the political aspect of it go away. Again, not a judgement on you or anyone else. People have limited ability to actively pay attention and choose every single purchase in that thoughtful of a way.

As to your second point, I agree. I love the games Blizzard puts out, Overwatch has been a huge part of my life for the last couple of years (and diablo/starcraft/warcraft before that in my high school years). To me, that makes this horrible decision by blizzard that much more of a reason to be vocally displeased about it. It's NOT just some toilet paper that I didn't research the originals of where they get their materials from or something, it's a company and products I'm actively invested in and a part of my life. To ignore something I find so... uh distasteful? is a nice way of putting it? doesn't sit right with me. While there's legitimately great people at Blizzard, even some I've had the pleasure of personally interacting with, I can't forgive or ignore the overall company's decisions and business practices because I like some people who are employed by them.
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,898
No one gets fired from companies as large as Blizzard that quickly just because one game did poorly. Hell, things could be going very well and they still might lose their jobs. You have no control over any of that - but you do have control over how you spend your money.
Very true. I'm only saying that:
  • People do get fired for making poor sales
  • Just because you buy a game doesn't mean you don't support human rights.
 

DarkPrince

Member
Dec 2, 2017
1,059
Jim should make a video about how amazing Diablo 4 looks instead of all this negative stuff. I couldn't get through the whole thing.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
except ongoing content requires income. Nothing is free.
It's not like income must come from microtransactions lol. It can come from any source. More game sales, higher sticker cost for your game, subscriptions, actual DLC worth money, it's not like the choice is literally do loot boxes or go broke.
 

fspm

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,086
Blizzard were ok when d3 released as always online real money auction house dumpster fire, blizzard were ok when they stopped releasing single player games, blizzard were ok when acti bought them, the most notorious shameless milking copy pasting bunch in the biz. And now suddenly blizzard aren't ok. Ok.

d4 being always online = autoskip but dat trailer was the best I've seen in years.
 

Ghostwalker

Member
Oct 30, 2017
582
Very true. I'm only saying that:
  • People do get fired for making poor sales
  • Just because you buy a game doesn't mean you don't support human rights.

People who do not buy Diablo 4 will spend that money on other products. So the jobs lost at Blizzard will be counter balanced by ther jobs saved/created at other companies.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,900
Las Vegas
All I ask to those who are going to playing D4 or OW2, do your best to keep this in conversation. As a consumer, I guess have your cake and eat it too.

If you're going to play D4, then at least keep the "fuck Blizzard free Hong Kong" message alive. Yeah, it's hypocritical as fuck. But it's better than people playing D4 and not keeping that messaging alive.

I can sit here and say that personally I won't be supporting D4 or Overwatch 2, but to be honest with you guys, that's an empty boycott since I think Diablo is boring as fuck and people take Overwatch online too seriously. Not my thing. I wouldn't be buying this game even if Blizzard found the cure to Diabetes.

To those who love Diablo and are boycotting it. You guys are gold. Much respect.
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
It's not like income must come from microtransactions lol. It can come from any source. More game sales, higher sticker cost for your game, subscriptions, actual DLC worth money, it's not like the choice is literally do loot boxes or go broke.

and that would stagger out the content too much. Because they would have to develop the dlc. sell it..and then wait for enough to come in to justify developing more.

With recurring income they know a baseline of what they can afford to develop at any given time and thus can push content out faster.
 

MisterSnrub

Member
Mar 10, 2018
5,947
Someplace Far Away
No game is worth it. Fuck off Blizzard. It's not much but my WoW subscription is in the bin.

China is such a fucked up place and I am never going back there, and minimising or dropping my support of its lackeys wherever possible. Most people don't know a fraction of what goes on there; if they did, and still put their entertainment 'needs' first, then that's just pathetic as fuck
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,638
Blizzard were ok when d3 released as always online real money auction house dumpster fire, blizzard were ok when they stopped releasing single player games, blizzard were ok when acti bought them, the most notorious shameless milking copy pasting bunch in the biz. And now suddenly blizzard aren't ok. Ok.

d4 being always online = autoskip but dat trailer was the best I've seen in years.
People where mad and/or worried about all those things. But this is greater than any of those.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
Wait, he already did a video to shit on Blizzard for their lame apology. What's new in this one?

That's what I want to know too as I can't watch it right now. However, I'm glad when Jim talks about something other than loot boxes. Talking about loot boxes is fine but I think he does talk about loot boxes a little too much so it's nice when he talks about something else.