Black Widow |Spoiler OT| Starring Florence Pugh as Black Widow

subpar spatula · Jul 12, 2021

Yeah, the more I think about it this movie is just really weird to where even the director doesn't know what is up:

Regarding Natasha getting away by Cate Shortland:

"That was intentional, because we wanted to leave the question of how she would get away, rather than allow the audience to get exhausted by another fight," director Cate Shortland told TheWrap.

"We wanted to leave you guys on a high with the question of how did she use her ingenuity? Because she did. And it was probably, I would say, she bargained her way out of that situation. But I don't know."

Movie is just all over the place.

ascii42 · Jul 12, 2021

kurahador said:
A little bit of copium theory: The reason Taskmaster is different was because Ward from AoS should've been one. So AoS is still canon.

Perhaps that deviation caused AoS to be pruned from the timeline.

Billfisto · Jul 12, 2021

entremet said:
Did anyone else see the Taskmaster reveal from a mile away lol? It was so obvious.

Pretty much. The fact that the costume was bulky and she never spoke pretty much guaranteed that she was actually a woman, and the daughter was basically the only unaccounted-for woman. Plus I figured that Disney was scared of having Nat actually murder a child.

He put a chip in her neck. He put a chip in her neck.

subpar spatula said:
Yeah, the more I think about it this movie is just really weird to where even the director doesn't know what is up:

Regarding Natasha getting away by Cate Shortland:

"That was intentional, because we wanted to leave the question of how she would get away, rather than allow the audience to get exhausted by another fight," director Cate Shortland told TheWrap.

"We wanted to leave you guys on a high with the question of how did she use her ingenuity? Because she did. And it was probably, I would say, she bargained her way out of that situation. But I don't know."

Movie is just all over the place.

Yeah, that's super nonsense. Why even write her into that situation, then?

PlanetSmasher · Jul 12, 2021

Billfisto said:
Pretty much. The fact that the costume was bulky and she never spoke pretty much guaranteed that she was actually a woman, and the daughter was basically the only unaccounted-for woman. Plus I figured that Disney was scared of having Nat actually murder a child.

He put a chip in her neck. He put a chip in her neck.

I was like 100% certain it would be Rachel Weisz in the suit based on conservation of casting. I didn't consider the possibility they would stunt-cast ANOTHER ACTRESS for the unmasking.

subpar spatula · Jul 12, 2021

Billfisto said:
Pretty much. The fact that the costume was bulky and she never spoke pretty much guaranteed that she was actually a woman, and the daughter was basically the only unaccounted-for woman. Plus I figured that Disney was scared of having Nat actually murder a child.

He put a chip in her neck. He put a chip in her neck.

Yeah, that's super nonsense. Why even write her into that situation, then?

When Olga's name came up in the intro and I didn't see her for half the movie I went, "She's Taskmaster".

shan780 · Jul 12, 2021

Billfisto said:
Plus I figured that Disney was scared of having Nat actually murder a child.

she really believed that she did though, which is why it really doesn't sit well with me. it's the equivalent of a government drone striking kids because they think there's a terrorist in the area. she says "I'm so sorry" in the movie, but it's really not good enough and seriously hurts the character in my eyes

ket · Jul 12, 2021

shan780 said:
she really believed that she did though, which is why it really doesn't sit well with me. it's the equivalent of a government drone striking kids because they think there's a terrorist in the area. she says "I'm so sorry" in the movie, but it's really not good enough and seriously hurts the character in my eyes

im pretty sure that it's been known since avengers 1 that black widow murdered a kid and other innocent people

IDreamOfHime · Jul 13, 2021

entremet said:
Did anyone else see the Taskmaster reveal from a mile away lol? It was so obvious.

Olga Kurylenko being named in the opening credits gave the game away for me.
When I saw her name I thought she was gonna be a high ranking Widow, but then she never appeared during any of the Widow battles. Throw in the conversations about the guilt of killing the daughter and the reveal lost its bite for me.
Still liked Taskmaster though. Super Intimidating and always great action. Crazy seeing all the shit thrown because of the gender swap.

Cuburger · Jul 13, 2021

subpar spatula said:
Yeah, the more I think about it this movie is just really weird to where even the director doesn't know what is up:

Regarding Natasha getting away by Cate Shortland:

"That was intentional, because we wanted to leave the question of how she would get away, rather than allow the audience to get exhausted by another fight," director Cate Shortland told TheWrap.

"We wanted to leave you guys on a high with the question of how did she use her ingenuity? Because she did. And it was probably, I would say, she bargained her way out of that situation. But I don't know."

Movie is just all over the place.

Sounds like they might have had another fight for her to get away and they changed their minds since that was sort of a natural end point for all the other plot threads, so they chose the tying up of several threads as the end point over ending on a chase with Ross with what would have been an extended second ending when the movie was already over 2 hours and 15 minutes long.

It's a little awkward since the Ross plot thread is left dangling, but the movie wrapped up everything else and we've already see her escape Ross with no problem earlier in the film.

It could have used a more decisive end point, and personally if I was editing it, I would have went with a montage and a voice over narration by Natasha to close out the movie, but the ending still accomplishes what it needed to. I mostly wish that they would have let the movie run a little longer because it probably could have used the breathing room.

cyba89 · Jul 13, 2021

Watched it in the theatre and thought the first 90 or so minutes were great, with the opening act being the highlight.
But sadly the movie fumbled hard in the last part once they get to the Red Room. The villians were not compelling at all and the MCU really didn't need another big explosive airship falling from the sky setpiece. Completely unneccessary with some very dodgy CGI. The sudden resolution was unsatisfying too. The movies weird placement between two several year old films didn't help with that.

Still, there's three fourths of a good movie in it (more than expected) and Florence Pugh is a great addition to the MCU.

Saifu · Jul 13, 2021

How does Val actually know that Clint was involved with Nat's death?
Did the Avengers have some PSA about the specifics of death of Nat?
Unless Red Skull be snitching or there was some kinda PSA for the public, I find it hard to believe that Val actually knew about what went down at Vormir.

IDreamOfHime · Jul 13, 2021

Saifu said:
How does Val actually know that Clint was involved with Nat's death?
Did the Avengers have some PSA about the specifics of death of Nat?
Unless Red Skull be snitching or there was some kinda PSA for the public, I find it hard to believe that Val actually knew about what went down at Vormir.

Perhaps some sort of debrief after Endgame for the world Government's/agencies and Val seems to work in the same circle as whoever Ross works for, so she'd be privy to classified files.

jroc74 · Jul 13, 2021

Great movie.

I like the fake out from the trailers thinking Weisz was gonna have some fight scenes. I just saw The Mummy Returns again recently so....lol.

Would it be corny if the sister basically replaces Black Widow in The Avengers? Looking around, I know see some articles suggesting it as one possibility.

MadLaughter · Jul 13, 2021

jroc74 said:
Would it be corny if the sister basically replaces Black Widow in The Avengers? Looking around, I know see some articles suggesting it.

She's definitely going to be the primary 'widow' of the MCU going forward, especially given the post-credits scene and what that sets up, and the universal praise for Pugh in this movie.

But despite Marvel having like a dozen movies announced, none of them are Avengers films yet. So who knows what the state of the universe will be by the time they get to it.

kurahador · Jul 13, 2021

jroc74 said:
Would it be corny if the sister basically replaces Black Widow in The Avengers? Looking around, I know see some articles suggesting it as one possibility.

Seems they are building up towards Thunderbolt first with her.

Kinketsu · Jul 13, 2021

Saifu said:
How does Val actually know that Clint was involved with Nat's death?
Did the Avengers have some PSA about the specifics of death of Nat?
Unless Red Skull be snitching or there was some kinda PSA for the public, I find it hard to believe that Val actually knew about what went down at Vormir.

I think the fact everyone knows she is dead in Spider-Man Far from Home (she is in the memorial video) along with Tony etc. means that the Avengers told everyone what happened, which would make sense. I think in Endgame, normal people know what happened with the Snap, hence the memorials and therapy sessions etc. I assume the Avengers told the world what they knew anyway. It stands to reason they would do the same when everyone suddenly comes back.

Bufbaf · Jul 13, 2021

subpar spatula said:
Yeah, the more I think about it this movie is just really weird to where even the director doesn't know what is up:

Regarding Natasha getting away by Cate Shortland:

"That was intentional, because we wanted to leave the question of how she would get away, rather than allow the audience to get exhausted by another fight," director Cate Shortland told TheWrap.

"We wanted to leave you guys on a high with the question of how did she use her ingenuity? Because she did. And it was probably, I would say, she bargained her way out of that situation. But I don't know."

Movie is just all over the place.

Honestly though, how it this an issue? The movie told a story happening in between movies, and it quite well delivered on that promise. Leaving a bit of uncertainty between those movies is entirely reasonable, especially if we're talking about an entire movie universe where not only existing movies, but also future ones should be able to line up and tell a bigger story. The story of what exactly happened to Natasha, Yelena and other protagonists ends at the point the movie ends, there's absolutely no reason to make it a detailed list of events leading from exactly one movie's ending to the exact start of another one. That's barely being the case for any MCU movie anyway, and for food reason: one of marvel's biggest premises (and if they can keep this at all time is irrelevant) is that every comic book is someone's first. And by itself, the somewhat open end doesn't detract from the experience at all.

I really don't have an issue with this at all, but yeah that's just my opinion.

Cuburger · Jul 13, 2021

Kinketsu said:
I think the fact everyone knows she is dead in Spider-Man Far from Home (she is in the memorial video) along with Tony etc. means that the Avengers told everyone what happened, which would make sense. I think in Endgame, normal people know what happened with the Snap, hence the memorials and therapy sessions etc. I assume the Avengers told the world what they knew anyway. It stands to reason they would do the same when everyone suddenly comes back.

From what we know, Darcy knew that Vision was dead dead, not blipped, and Woo talks about how Carol Danvers almost beat Thanos, but at the same time, people think Steve could be living on the moon, so I don't think the general public is privy to every event in Endgame.

My head canon, is that Peter is the one who would be the most likely to blab about details or post it to social media, so basically if the info was something that he saw or could find out, then that is what the public knew, otherwise, anything he didn't see personally could be left to hearsay and rumors.

subpar spatula · Jul 13, 2021

Bufbaf said:
Honestly though, how it this an issue? The movie told a story happening in between movies, and it quite well delivered on that promise. Leaving a bit of uncertainty between those movies is entirely reasonable, especially if we're talking about an entire movie universe where not only existing movies, but also future ones should be able to line up and tell a bigger story. The story of what exactly happened to Natasha, Yelena and other protagonists ends at the point the movie ends, there's absolutely no reason to make it a detailed list of events leading from exactly one movie's ending to the exact start of another one. That's barely being the case for any MCU movie anyway, and for food reason: one of marvel's biggest premises (and if they can keep this at all time is irrelevant) is that every comic book is someone's first. And by itself, the somewhat open end doesn't detract from the experience at all.

I really don't have an issue with this at all, but yeah that's just my opinion.

It's an issue because even the director doesn't know what is going on there. The director. Like, that's some Game of Thrones season 7 and 8 writing right there.

Bufbaf · Jul 13, 2021

subpar spatula said:
It's an issue because even the director doesn't know what is going on there. The director. Like, that's some Game of Thrones season 7 and 8 writing right there.

But why should she? The movie is over, it's purposefully ended before the next potential story would start. I don't get it :D

subpar spatula · Jul 13, 2021

Bufbaf said:
But why should she? The movie is over, it's purposefully ended before the next potential story would start. I don't get it :D

No you do get it.

TheKeyPit · Jul 13, 2021

The Ross scenes are there because they think that we, the audience, are too dumb to understand when this takes place.

I would have scrapped them entirely. They don't add anything to this movie. Could have used the time and cash to flesh out other stuff.

Natasha being on the run and that radio broadcast talking about some of the Avengers being on the run and the jet at the end of the movie + blonde hair color should have been enough informations for the audience to figure it out.

Edit: Red Guardian could have used more/better fight scenes, because I can't remember a single move he pulled off, besides breaking that one guys hand in prison. A flashback scene where he was in his prime would have been neat.

Carn · Jul 13, 2021

subpar spatula said:
It's an issue because even the director doesn't know what is going on there.

Not showing events is a valid choice imho, these kind of time-jumps/cuts happen all the time in movies.

Rendering... · Jul 13, 2021

This movie was so much better than I expected, holy shit. I thought it would be middling at best going by the trailer, but it's easily in the top quarter of Marvel films for me. Fantastic cast, chemistry, story, action, humor, music, and themes. They really nailed the hell out of it.

It felt like I was witnessing Marvel evolve in real time, with grittier action and weightier storytelling. The focus on women and women's issues actually had some tooth to it. Much more than I expected from Marvel under Disney, that's for sure.

They really let Florence Pugh describe a forced hysterectomy. They actually dared to have a full-on Weinstein surrogate as the villain. And they didn't play coy about how completely his power rested on the excellence of exploited women and the personal misogyny that caused him to view all women as disposable tools.

I thought I wanted a Black Widow espionage movie after Avengers 1, and that's still a cool idea, but I definitely wouldn't trade this film's pitch perfect family dynamics and gloves-off feminist themes for a more conventional spy flick.

Plus, the whole thing is just really damn entertaining on account of how well it's written, acted, and directed.

MadLaughter · Jul 13, 2021

Rendering... said:
It felt like I was witnessing Marvel evolve in real time, with grittier action and weightier storytelling. The focus on women and women's issues actually had some tooth to it. Much more than I expected from Marvel under Disney, that's for sure.

They really let Florence Pugh describe a forced hysterectomy. They actually dared to have a full-on Weinstein surrogate as the villain. And they didn't play coy about how completely his power rested on the excellence of exploited women and the personal misogyny that caused him to view all women as disposable tools.

The second time I watched it I was looking out for things in the Dreykov scene, and the comment "How many conversations have you had with people that WANTED to talk to you", the way Dreykov had both hands on the arms of the chair when Natasha/Milena was sitting in it and was towering over her, the (faked) flinch by Natasha, the way Dreykov looked/dressed, all of it. Even the scent thing added a layer of predation to it.

cognizant · Jul 13, 2021

Calling it: Yelena and Bucky will hook up. He'll be a co-star in her solo movie too.

Cuburger · Jul 13, 2021

Carn said:
Not showing events is a valid choice imho, these kind of time-jumps/cuts happen all the time in movies.

Remember this moment in Captain America: The First Avenger?

captain-america-disneyscreencaps.com-7664.jpg

Did Cap die? Did he make it to the other side? We see him in the next scene so I suppose him and Bucky were able to find a way to make it out alive but if we aren't explicitly shown how they did it, the movie must be a mess. I mean the director didn't even know the real answer for a scene they intentionally kept vague. THE DIRECTOR!!!!!

Rendering... · Jul 13, 2021

MadLaughter said:
The second time I watched it I was looking out for things in the Dreykov scene, and the comment "How many conversations have you had with people that WANTED to talk to you", the way Dreykov had both hands on the arms of the chair when Natasha/Milena was sitting in it and was towering over her, the (faked) flinch by Natasha, the way Dreykov looked/dressed, all of it. Even the scent thing added a layer of predation to it.

Yeah I thought the tension and sense of threat was so well played. All that domineering body language. Very effective for me. Lots of vicarious discomfort for sure.

And the way Natasha cut him down to size later in the scene was well done.

Mike Works · Jul 13, 2021

I might have missed this, but why was David Harbour in prison? The head canon I made up for myself was that Ray Winstone buried him there because his widow program became more efficient once he got the mind control thing going.

JayCB64 · Jul 13, 2021

Mike Works said:
I might have missed this, but why was David Harbour in prison? The head canon I made up for myself was that Ray Winstone buried him there because his widow program became more efficient once he got the mind control thing going.

I think he says in the movie that he was thrown in jail because he told Dreykov he didn't like his haircut or something like that, lol. I'd imagine that would be more the case though, combination of being a liability and finding more efficient means with the more controlled Widows.

cognizant · Jul 13, 2021

JayCB said:
I think he says in the movie that he was thrown in jail because he told Dreykov he didn't like his haircut or something like that, lol. I'd imagine that would be more the case though, combination of being a liability and finding more efficient means with the more controlled Widows.

Authoritarians are notoriously thin skinned and can't take a joke. I actually believe RG lol.

Aprikurt · Jul 13, 2021

Mike Works said:
I might have missed this, but why was David Harbour in prison? The head canon I made up for myself was that Ray Winstone buried him there because his widow program became more efficient once he got the mind control thing going.

Yeah he makes pretty clear that as soon as he'd become of no use to Dreyvok he considered him a liability.

Callibretto · Jul 13, 2021

Mike Works said:
I might have missed this, but why was David Harbour in prison? The head canon I made up for myself was that Ray Winstone buried him there because his widow program became more efficient once he got the mind control thing going.

I think it's implied that RG want to do more fpr the country, maybe be active politically or something like that and he got thrown in jail

Ravelle · Jul 13, 2021

entremet said:
Do you guys think Natasha will come back?

yes, as Natasha The White (Widow)

But no, I hope not. Her sacrifice would be lessened.

She's been around for a long time and they never made her that interesting and were too late with giving her some character development, bringing her back would be meaningless if they continued going down the same route.

Sesha · Jul 13, 2021

jroc74 said:
Great movie.

I like the fake out from the trailers thinking Weisz was gonna have some fight scenes. I just saw The Mummy Returns again recently so....lol.

Would it be corny if the sister basically replaces Black Widow in The Avengers? Looking around, I know see some articles suggesting it as one possibility.

This was essentially a Yelena origin movie sandwiched into the Natasha send-off movie. We might get a Black Widow trilogy with Yelena. The possibility is there, at least. With Thunderbolts as her Avengers equivalent, unless she just fully joins the Avengers anyway.

Weltall Zero · Jul 13, 2021

Rendering... said:
This movie was so much better than I expected, holy shit. I thought it would be middling at best going by the trailer, but it's easily in the top quarter of Marvel films for me. Fantastic cast, chemistry, story, action, humor, music, and themes. They really nailed the hell out of it.

It felt like I was witnessing Marvel evolve in real time, with grittier action and weightier storytelling. The focus on women and women's issues actually had some tooth to it. Much more than I expected from Marvel under Disney, that's for sure.

They really let Florence Pugh describe a forced hysterectomy. They actually dared to have a full-on Weinstein surrogate as the villain. And they didn't play coy about how completely his power rested on the excellence of exploited women and the personal misogyny that caused him to view all women as disposable tools.

I thought I wanted a Black Widow espionage movie after Avengers 1, and that's still a cool idea, but I definitely wouldn't trade this film's pitch perfect family dynamics and gloves-off feminist themes for a more conventional spy flick.

Plus, the whole thing is just really damn entertaining on account of how well it's written, acted, and directed.

Yeah, pretty much my impressions as well; it was considerably better than I expected. They went pretty all in with the feminist and antipatriarchal subtext, I love it. The ending was a bit anticlimactic as there was no real big bad to have an epic showdown with (wisely, the Tasky-Natasha fight is rather short as the public would not cheer for Nat there). It also gets a bit slow and unnececessarily long after Taskmaster is freed, but everything else is top entertainment.

Speaking of Taskmaster, the explanation of her as a cyborg makes so much sense for her specific set of powers. I wish she had a bit more of a presence during the movie, but it's also true that this makes her all the more intimidating when she shows up. I wonder what the plans for her will be, moving forward; right now the inertial path for her would be retirement or becoming a hero (e.g. leading the effort in releasing the other widows), but it would not take a lot of wrangling to inch her closer to her comics, world-class-mercenary counterpart, especially given other recent face-heel (or face-neutral) turns.

luoapp · Jul 13, 2021

Rendering... said:
This movie was so much better than I expected, holy shit. I thought it would be middling at best going by the trailer

I have a bad feeling Shang-Chi will be this movie after watching the trailer. Prove me wrong, Chloe!

WrenchNinja · Jul 13, 2021

This was fine, some solid action scenes and the family drama was alright. Florence Pugh was definitely the best part. Taskmaster was extremely disappointing. Can't believe what they did to the character.

Deleted member 2145 · Jul 13, 2021

there's a veneer of ickiness to the prevalence of the "they fucked up taskmaster" takes that I can't quite articulate but considering what they did with the character and the movie it makes me uncomfortable tbh

WrenchNinja · Jul 13, 2021

They didn't have to make her a boring slave of the big bad, or they could have given her more fights that showed off her mimicry, and they didn't have to make this big predictable mystery with the loosest connection to Natasha, or have to give her another lame tragic backstory. She could have just been a gender flipped version of the comics, a jerkass mercenary and instructor.

The Artisan · Jul 13, 2021

is everyone in that prison dead because of the avalanche? I don't remember if there was any hint of survivors

cognizant · Jul 13, 2021

phanphare said:
there's a veneer of ickiness to the prevalence of the "they fucked up taskmaster" takes that I can't quite articulate but considering what they did with the character and the movie it makes me uncomfortable tbh

They literally robbed a woman of her voice, her agency, her personality, her physicality by casting a stuntman, and rendered Olga to one line of dialogue in the entire movie, and you have a problem with the critics?

Ghost in Ant-Man 2 has a similar tragic story of being brought up as an assassin and spends the movie a prisoner to a condition, but at least that movie gave her an actual presence, a character with an inner life and desires or her own. The Taskmaster of this movie was not a character, but a plot device.

They could have changed absolutely nothing about her backstory and predicament, but still gave her a voice and personality and the movie would have still worked. The fact that they didn't is a legitimate complaint to be had, so please cut it with the obnoxious "critics of Tasky are icky and probably incels" takes of your own.

odiin · Jul 13, 2021

luoapp said:
I have a bad feeling Shang-Chi will be this movie after watching the trailer. Prove me wrong, Chloe!

Who's Chloe?

luoapp · Jul 13, 2021

odiin said:
Who's Chloe?

Oops. Guess the Asian/Chinese element in the movie makes me think Chloe Zhao is the director. (She is directing Eternals.)

Destin Daniel Cretton is the director, but I never watched any of his movies. So, idk, but the trailer didn't give me much confidence.

davepoobond · Jul 13, 2021

TheKeyPit said:
Edit: Red Guardian could have used more/better fight scenes, because I can't remember a single move he pulled off, besides breaking that one guys hand in prison. A flashback scene where he was in his prime would have been neat.

or even like a "funny" flashback where it is obviously not real and its his fictional storytelling

cubistic · Jul 13, 2021

The Artisan said:
is everyone in that prison dead because of the avalanche? I don't remember if there was any hint of survivors

They ran back inside.

Chumunga64 · Jul 13, 2021

phanphare said:
there's a veneer of ickiness to the prevalence of the "they fucked up taskmaster" takes that I can't quite articulate but considering what they did with the character and the movie it makes me uncomfortable tbh

don't do the weird "idk maybe it's because they turned taskmaster into a woman" thing because Ghost became a woman and she was pretty damn popular despite the changes because she has plot relevance and...actual dialogue

besides, "they fucked up X villain" is such a common (and accurate) MCU complaint. we just haven't heard of it in a while since phase 3 mostly turned it around

The Artisan · Jul 13, 2021

cubistic said:
They ran back inside.

but they're buried under who knows how many tons of snow. we never see the prison again so I thought the implication was that they all died

Deleted member 2145 · Jul 13, 2021

Chumunga64 said:
don't do the weird "idk maybe it's because they turned taskmaster into a woman" thing because Ghost became a woman and she was pretty damn popular despite the changes because she has plot relevance and...actual dialogue

besides, "they fucked up X villain" is such a common (and accurate) MCU complaint. we just haven't heard of it in a while since phase 3 mostly turned it around

no it's more that they made her the victim of a powerful white male abuser and people are going on and on about how badly marvel fucked up and they wish they got the comic accurate version instead. just feels ehhhh but like I said I'm not the one who is going to be able to properly articulate this more than a broad "this feels kind of icky"

like, when she took her helmet off I was legitimately horrified. I feel like this movie is actually pretty well written so it's weird to see that so easily cast aside because people didn't get the specific comic book depiction that they wanted especially given what we actually got instead

Chumunga64 · Jul 13, 2021

phanphare said:
no it's more that they made her the victim of a powerful white male abuser and people are going on and on about how badly marvel fucked up and they wish they got the comic accurate version instead. just feels ehhhh but like I said I'm not the one who is going to be able to properly articulate this more than a broad "this feels kind of icky"

like, when she took her helmet off I was legitimately horrified. I feel like this movie is actually pretty well written so it's weird to see that so easily cast aside because people didn't get the specific comic book depiction that they wanted especially given what we actually got instead

this criticism still feels half baked since the both villains are half baked in terms of the story so it's not hard for me to understand the criticism. Hell, almost every professional critic dunked on how badly the villains were done and I'm pretty sure most critics aren't big fans of a D list marvel character

and it's hard for me to take a lot symbolism seriously when it took marvel like 11 years to give us a black widow movie after her death. Don't pat yourself on the back after finally giving your first heroine a movie after all this time

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