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Black Sheep you consider to be the best of their franchises

modsbox

modsbox

Member
Oct 28, 2017
655
Super Mario Sunshine.

Best 3D mario game imo. Obviously not as historically important as Super Mario 64. Critics adore Galaxy. People loved Odyssey.

And yet, I still think Sunshine is the best. Most difficult of them all to 120 star, most diverse gameplay and assortment of moves, great setting. Love it. And it absolutely gets enough hate to be considered a black sheep, no doubt about that.
 
shinobi602

shinobi602

Verified
Oct 24, 2017
8,330
Apollo said:
Dragon Age II is not only the best DA, it's the best BioWare game
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kubev

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,533
California
I don't know whether Secret of Evermore is or ever was considered to be related to Secret of Mana and the other games in that series, but I personally prefer Secret of Evermore to those other games.
 

Deleted member 79517

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 31, 2020
472
I used to say Majora's Mask, but I'm pretty sure that isn't a black sheep anymore.

And I think people like Pokemon BW now, too.

Sooooo...MGSV it is!
 

Manbig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,305
UnluckyKate said:
Tekken 4, I think gets more and more appreciation as time passes because looking back, it tried a lot of new things that got left behind because people didn't like it. It still looks and feels and plays like a Tekken game but you got to appreciate it when you compare to all the games before and after that really look and play the same with just incremental upgrades each episodes.

Its not a huge departure like from SF2 to 3 or the SF EX then to 4. It's more like its own thing but really within Tekken
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It definitely does not play like a Tekken game lol, but I agree that people look back very fondly on the general presentation and tone of the game. Outside of the gameplay mechanics, it did the best at everything else IMO.

My actual answer for this thread though is Mass Effect 1. I really didn't like how 2 and 3 turned into pretty generic Gears clones with space magic. Thought they could have just expanded and improved on the gameplay ideas from part 1 and it probably would've become my favorite series of all time.
 
Kupo Kupopo

Kupo Kupopo

Member
Jul 6, 2019
2,959
most recently, watch dogs legion. for me, lots more fun than the other 2 games (never finished the first, played & finished wd2 after finishing legion). i lucked out with getting a great, entertaining main character (a 40-something black cockney dominatrix), & loved dystopian london (tho i really missed not having some kinda max headroom cameo)...
 
Protome

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,677
Dragon Ball Z Budokai 2 (excluding the Tenkaichi games as their own series.)
It had that fun board game mode for the campaign (think the DBZ Fighterz story mode but good) and had all the crazy fusions and stuff.

They didn't even put it in the HD Remaster last gen, I was genuinely super bummed by that.
 
CrichtonKicks

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,183
Mass Effect 3. Yeah the ending sucked but several of the segments earlier in the game are absolute franchise peaks and the combat system is easily the best in the trilogy.
 
Damn Silly

Damn Silly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,188
I have tried many a Mario game, and they're all obviously a certain level of quality, but Sunshine is the only one I found fun/engaging/whatever enough to beat.

Oh, and Nuts and Bolts is easily my favourite of the three Banjo games. I get they probably had their place at release, but by the time I got to the original and Tooie, hoo boy. Straight up fell asleep during Tooie.
 
JustinH

JustinH

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,392
Splinter Cell: Conviction.
It feels great to play with less "trial-and-error runs," the controls are way better than the more-liked Blacklist (in my opinion), and despite you needing to kill some people every now and then, it still feels really great getting through an area without killing, or alerting, any of the enemies.

forgive the run-on

I wouldn't call the game from where my avatar comes "the best" or "my favorite" Zelda, but it's my 2nd favorite Zelda. I think now more than ever, that the criticism that it isn't "enough like a Zelda game" really stupid. Even more so back when it came out and until Link to the Past was released.
 
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ghibli99

ghibli99

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,723
Ikarus said:
DmC
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Agreed. I don't know if it's due to whatever changes they made to the DE (that's when I played it), but I really enjoyed it. I played it after Bayo 1 & 2, and I thought there were some things NT did with DmC that were better than Platinum's games. I've never quite been able to get into Capcom's DMC games for some reason, even 3 and 5, which I think are generally considered the best ones.
 
theosmeo

theosmeo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
773
majoras, metroid prime 2, and mgs2. I understand that a lot of people have really come around on these three in recent years though so maybe they arent black sheep anymore
 
carl_sandland

carl_sandland

Member
May 31, 2019
372
Interesting so many of these are the "difficult second album" type titles. Probably something to do with people really being passionate about the original and having preconceptions about the sequel to a great game. As with music, eventually people start to really love the second one. Then with the 3rd/4th title there is enough 'distance' from the original again for open minded reception. Creating magic is fragging hard and people just want the same thing over and over again. Notable counter example is Diablo 2 being the best damn sequel ever :)
 
Gunstar Legend

Gunstar Legend

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,239
Don't know if it's my overall favorite Bomberman game, but Bomberman Max is very close to it.

It doesn't have traditional multiplayer, which is obviously a big minus, but it easily has the most interesting twist on single-player Bomberman within the 2D games, if not the entire series.
 
skeezx

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,131
thing with the black sheep label is it eventually gets its own cult following

zelda 2 is a case example, i read so many posts "it was the black sheep but man is it oh so good"... and i'm like wtf are you talking about in 1988 zelda 2 was some hot shit.
 
CaptainK

CaptainK

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,887
Canada
Super Paper Mario is a really fun, creative, puzzle platformer and has the best writing in the series. I'd be perfectly happy if the Paper Mario series didn't have turn-based battles at all. I loved the ring puzzles in Origami King, but then having to clear out enemies afterwards was kinda boring.
 
Richietto

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,964
North Carolina
skeezx said:
thing with the black sheep label is it eventually gets its own cult following

zelda 2 is a case example, i read so many posts "it was the black sheep but man is it oh so good"... and i'm like wtf are you talking about in 1988 zelda 2 was some hot shit.
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If they just spent like 6 more months on Zelda 2 it could have been a genuinely great game but man it's like all the ideas in it are half backed.
 
Squid Bunny

Squid Bunny

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 11, 2018
5,340
SleepyLion said:
Skyward Sword for sure, I doubt Nintendo will ever make another Zelda as good as that for me personally. Best story, some of the best dungeons, lovely soundtrack, great use of motion controls. It just delivered everything I expect/want from a Zelda game.
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Skyward Sword is probably a couple of Imprisioned fights removed from being my favorite Zelda game.
 
Starlatine

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,375
Final Fantasy II is my second favourite classic FF (behind V) and since i vastly prefer classic i guess it would be my second FF overall too

its broken, buggy, dumb, but i like it

Truant said:
I respect you and celebrate whatever differences we might have, but I straight up don't believe you actually mean this.
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maybe they just really REALLY like that one cave we spend the entire game going through over and over
 
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
Kind of a stock answer, but Majora's Mask. People didn't know what to make of it upon release but now it's one of the most popular titles in the series and often considered one of the greatest games of all time.

Hoa said:
I don't think it's the best of the entire Megaman series but Megaman Starforce 3 is an excellent excellent game that got overlooked due to the first 2 games just trying to find their legs. It's just as great as Megaman Battle Network 3 was for its series.

I guess this is more of the Starforce series being the black sheep rather than Starforce 3 in general though, it's definitely considered the best one as far as I know.
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Star Force 3 is fantastic and it's a shame that whole series got ignored.
 
woolyninja

woolyninja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,028
Resistance: Fall of Man - its still up there as one of my favorite games of all time but was panned by critics and fans. The same people went on to like Resistance 2 and love Resistance 3 but they never really felt as good as the first one to me.
 
StrappingYoungLance

StrappingYoungLance

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,390
Melbourne, Australia
Asbsand said:
I did feel Wind Waker was overall best with characters there. SS is big on emotion and character traits but I think the overall story to the characters is a bit too sappy and doesn't have the kind of doubt and conlfict I felt in people like the King of Red Lions or Tetra. It is better than TP though, in just about every way, characters, story and anything except some of the dungeon design.
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That's fair, there's not a whole lot to the characters despite their excellent characterisation. Groose is kind of the only main character with any personal development.

Zelda goes through a journey over the course of the game but we really don't get to see how she grapples with her destiny or the sacrifices she has to make, she just kind of does the thing.

Then there's an attempt at an emotional moment at the end with Fi that hit me but would have been so much better if we'd ever actually seen her relationship with Link change or grow over the course of the game - instead she's pretty much just the same relatively wooden "AI" throughout.

It's fair to say there's certainly more substance to Wind Waker's main characters.
 
Mekanos

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
I'll throw my hat in with Mario 3D World too if that counts. It's the worst selling 3D Mario and often maligned (wrongly) for being "3D Land in HD" but it's an utterly brilliant game and the encapsulation of what I fantasized a traditional Mario platformer would be like in 3D as a kid. It's definitely my favorite 3D Mario and I cannot wait for Bowser's Fury.
 
Apollo

Apollo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,090
Truant said:
I respect you and celebrate whatever differences we might have, but I straight up don't believe you actually mean this.
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I really fucking love DAII lol. Not in the "I think it's flawless" way, because it's obviously very flawed, but because what it does do right, it does so well. The way that game plays with the notion of the passage of time, and what it means to live in one city and grow and change alongside it and its people, really helps Kirkwall to develop a sense of place that it wouldn't otherwise have. The next best thing for me from BioWare is ME1, which also had incredible world building, but in a different and more expansive way. I do like that, but the personal nature of DAII's scale resonates with me more.
 
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