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Black level confusion LG OLED C9

NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
Hello Era,

I need advice here. I connected my gamer laptop via HDMI to my C9 OLED.

Question is, what Black Level do I use?
If I use high/full, I get banding, if i use limited/limited black looks fine.

Other question, what black level do I use on Switch and PS4 ? Which RGB range?

This is hella confusing.
 
Patitoloco

Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,614
NovumVeritas said:
Hello Era,

I need advice here. I connected my gamer laptop via HDMI to my C9 OLED.

Question is, what Black Level do I use?
If I use high/full, I get banding, if i use limited/limited black looks fine.

Other question, what black level do I use on Switch and PS4 ? Which RGB range?

This is hella confusing.
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Whatever you choose, make sure the level is THE SAME in the TV and the console. A Limited TV/Full range console will look crushed, while the opposite will wash the colors.

My recomendation is that you use Limited in both of them, I feel like it's what it's intended. On the PS4 you can do it in the RGB Range setting.
 
ToD_

ToD_

Member
Oct 27, 2017
405
NovumVeritas said:
Hello Era,

I need advice here. I connected my gamer laptop via HDMI to my C9 OLED.

Question is, what Black Level do I use?
If I use high/full, I get banding, if i use limited/limited black looks fine.

Other question, what black level do I use on Switch and PS4 ? Which RGB range?

This is hella confusing.
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Click to shrink...
Like others mentioned, it should be set to the same on both ends. One thing specifically about the LG OLEDs is that PC mode has more pronounced banding than other modes. On my C7 it is indeed true that when using PC mode the banding is much more severe in high/full, and limited is much better (though still not as good as other inputs).
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
But why does it look greyish when I use Full/ high or limited/limited?

If i use Low/Full black looks way better contrast wise.
 
dstarMDA

dstarMDA

Member
Dec 22, 2017
4,289
NovumVeritas said:
But why does it look greyish when I use Full/ high or limited/limited?

If i use Low/Full black looks way better contrast wise.
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A higher contrast does not mean a better image. Prefering a less precise image is absolutely valid though if you like it better with some crushed blacks.

I would advise you to play a bit with limited/limited without comparing every two seconds and let your eyes adjust before making a definite decision.
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
Seems I was to adjusted to black crush all these years. That is probably why it looks so odd to me. I put everything to low/limited now.

PC
Switch and PS4.

I use the game mode btw. Not the PC mode because of the horrible banding I have read about.
 
DiscoThunder

DiscoThunder

Member
May 7, 2019
641
Changing from crushed blacks to the correct settings can make the picture look grey-ish at once, but your eyes will adjust.

Doing limited/full will kill a lot of detail in dark scenes.
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
Another question. My laptop has a RTX 2060, and the C9 has GSync, my TV has the newest firmware. I cannot choose GSYNC in Nvidia CP though, why is that? I have the HDMI directly connected to HDMI 1.

Got the newest drivers as well. From yesterday.
 
eXistor

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,275
NovumVeritas said:
Another question. My laptop has a RTX 2060, and the C9 has GSync, my TV has the newest firmware. I cannot choose GSYNC in Nvidia CP though, why is that? I have the HDMI directly connected to HDMI 1.

Got the newest drivers as well. From yesterday.
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Works only at 1080p.

/edit: actually, I can choose it at any resolution, but you can only choose 120hz at 1080p.
 
ToD_

ToD_

Member
Oct 27, 2017
405
Probably stating the obvious here, but when setting to limited/limited (or full/full) blacks should, of course, still be black. If actual black content looks gray now, something is wrong.

If you're used to a setup where details were crushed before, this probably does look less punchy, however. This is a good thing, and you're obviously still getting infinite contrast with the OLED's perfect black levels.
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
ToD_ said:
Probably stating the obvious here, but when setting to limited/limited (or full/full) blacks should, of course, still be black. If actual black content looks gray now, something is wrong.

If you're used to a setup where details were crushed before, this probably does look less punchy, however. This is a good thing, and you're obviously still getting infinite contrast with the OLED's perfect black levels.
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The content is still black, but not deep black. The deep black is probably the crushed one.
 
Firebrand

Firebrand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,709
I suggest just setting everything to Limited unless you're having issues. Even a PC might default to Limited if it thinks the display is a TV.

Hopefully your TV's setting is not as confusing as my Samsung monitor where Normal actually means Auto-detect on signal and Low means adjusting it.
 
ToD_

ToD_

Member
Oct 27, 2017
405
NovumVeritas said:
The content is still black, but not deep black. The deep black is probably the crushed one.
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Black should be black. As in, your pixels should literally be turned off when displaying black content. I am not sure what you mean about the difference between black and deep black.

Go to the website below and see how many of the squares are visible. The background should be as black as it can get, but the first row of gray squares should be visible. The ones labeled with a 1 or 2 may be hard to see (highly depending on the ambient light). If the background is not black or the first rows are not visible, something is wrong.

Black level - Lagom LCD test

www.lagom.nl www.lagom.nl
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
ToD_ said:
Black should be black. As in, your pixels should literally be turned off when displaying black content. I am not sure what you mean about the difference between black and deep black.

Go to the website below and see how many of the squares are visible. The background should be as black as it can get, but the first row of gray squares should be visible. The ones labeled with a 1 or 2 may be hard to see. If the background is not black or the first rows are not visible, something is wrong.

Black level - Lagom LCD test

www.lagom.nl www.lagom.nl
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Thank you for the link. I will test it.

Well when I have Nvidia CP on limited and my black level on low I get this when I open the HP Omen Command Center I got color banding. The HP Omen Command center has a black background.
 
hob982

hob982

Member
Oct 27, 2017
321
If set to PC, the HDMI will be preset in "auto" and that means black level full. I set it in nvidia control panel to switch, since by default it's limited.
 
ToD_

ToD_

Member
Oct 27, 2017
405
NovumVeritas said:
Thank you for the link. I will test it.

Well when I have Nvidia CP on limited and my black level on low I get this when I open the HP Omen Command Center I got color banding. The HP Omen Command center has a black background.
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I am not familiar with HP Omen Command Center. It sounds like you have your TV and PC set correctly, however.

I am not sure what could be causing the color banding. Maybe worth seeing if it's a problem in real content.
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
ToD_ said:
I am not familiar with HP Omen Command Center. It sounds like you have your TV and PC set correctly, however.

I am not sure what could be causing the color banding. Maybe worth seeing if it's a problem in real content.
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Funny thing is the banding is only when both are identical. This is really headscratching worthy.
 
zeomax

zeomax

Member
Oct 28, 2017
187
Firebrand said:
I suggest just setting everything to Limited unless you're having issues. Even a PC might default to Limited if it thinks the display is a TV.
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It depends what connection you are using. If you use HDMI the default setting is limited. If connected throught Displayport the default setting is full.
 
ToD_

ToD_

Member
Oct 27, 2017
405
NovumVeritas said:
Funny thing is the banding is only when both are identical. This is really headscratching worthy.
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Indeed, I'm not sure what's happening here either. Also, just to make sure, on my C7 in the Black Level menu limited is called Low, and full is called High. So when set to limited in the Nvidia CP, the TV should be set to Low, and at full it should be set to High. Not sure if the same wording is used on the C9, but the menus are very similar between the LG OLED TVs.
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
ToD_ said:
Indeed, I'm not sure what's happening here either. Also, just to make sure, on my C7 in the Black Level menu limited is called Low, and full is called High. So when set to limited in the Nvidia CP, the TV should be set to Low, and at full it should be set to High. Not sure if the same wording is used on the C9, but the menus are very similar between the LG OLED TVs.
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This is what I did. Limited/low. The menu on the C9 is the same.
 
Pargon

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,996
I'll quote an older post of mine that has examples:
Pargon said:
The important thing with video levels is that the output and display levels match.
  • Full range is 0-255
  • Limited range is 16-235
Full out/limited display = clipped shadows and highlights, overly dark/contrasted image:
levels-clipped-j5jgb.jpg


Limited out/full display = washed-out image:
levels-washed-5kjd7.jpg


Limited out/display limited = perfect image.
Full out/display full = perfect image.

levels-good-53kgs.jpg


The main reason the different ranges exist is that PC has always used the full 0-255 8-bit signal for video output, while video intentionally used a limited 16-235 range because it allows for "below-black" and "above white" information to be present in the signal.
Technically you have the potential for smoother gradation with full out/display full, because you have 256 steps of gradation in use vs 220 and are avoiding a conversion step if using a PC/Console (internally rendering full-range) but it's probably not going to even be visible on most displays.*

Many video devices have problems passing through full range signals and will automatically clip/convert the signal as it passes through. This can result in an image with crushed shadow/highlight detail, but one which does not have the typical overly-contrasted appearance you might expect:
levels-crushed-jck1b.jpg


It's generally a lot easier to stick with a limited output on every device where possible - especially when you now have devices doing things like switching between SDR and HDR outputs on the same display input.
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NovumVeritas said:
Thank you for the link. I will test it.
Well when I have Nvidia CP on limited and my black level on low I get this when I open the HP Omen Command Center I got color banding. The HP Omen Command center has a black background.
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That's probably due to the way that NVIDIA GPUs handle color conversions more than anything else. * This is the one exception to the rule above.
If you are using an 8-bit output you should never use anything other than RGB Full from the GPU or else there will be color banding.
Don't use color profiles for display calibration or tools like f.lux either. All of that will cause there to be color banding.
This is because NVIDIA don't dither their conversions for some stupid reason.

If the output is 10-bit or higher, it should be less of a problem, but is still going to happen because it's still not dithered.
AMD do this correctly and dither the conversions, so you don't get that color banding.

I've been complaining to NVIDIA about this for years to no avail. Maybe they'll eventually add these options like they did with integer scaling.
 

Alo81

Member
Oct 27, 2017
547
What game are you playing, and what is your TV's brightness setting at? Keep in mind that for the LG oleds, backlight and brightness are separate. Brightness should generally be at 50. Higher doesn't create a brighter picture (additional light output) it simply shifts the colors brighter (more white than black).

If I am playing a game where I don't like how low contrast it is, I will sometimes manually drop the brightness a bit to shit down into black. Animal Crossing is a recent example. In your house, the surroundings are a dark grey background. I lower my brightness to ~44, until the gray becomes absolute black thus taking advantage of the OLED.
 
Pargon

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,996
Alo81 said:
If I am playing a game where I don't like how low contrast it is, I will sometimes manually drop the brightness a bit to shit down into black. Animal Crossing is a recent example. In your house, the surroundings are a dark grey background. I lower my brightness to ~44, until the gray becomes absolute black thus taking advantage of the OLED.
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You should be adjusting gamma for this, not brightness.
Contrast sets the white level and brightness sets the black level, while gamma adjusts the tone of the image in-between those two points.
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
Damn this topic is pretty complex as I see.

So I should use RGB Full in the NVidia CP and High in black level on the OLED?

I only have the option of 8 bpc and 32 bit. I use game mode, 1080p @ 120 hz. OLED light is 60, brightness at 50. Sharpness at zero.
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
Monster Zero said:
Something is wrong then. Are you using an old HDMI cable? Are you very familiar with Nvidia control panel? The only option available in the Hz toggle box is 30hz?
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Jup exactly. I had a guess the HDMI cable is to old somehow. It is a High Speed HDMI cable, maybe I should get a new one. Any recommendation? Are the one from Amazon Basic good?
 
APizzaPie

APizzaPie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
833
Amazon Basics should be fine. Just a heads up though, I ordered 3-4 Amazon Basic cables a few weeks ago and once of the cables in the batch was not capable of full speeds. One more suggestion if the cable isn't an issue, is Instant Game Response turned on in the picture settings for HDMI 1?
 
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NovumVeritas

NovumVeritas

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,131
Berlin
SoulClap said:
Amazon Basics should be fine. Just a heads up though, I ordered 3-4 Amazon Basic cables a few weeks ago and once of the cables in the batch was not capable of full speeds. One more suggestion if the cable isn't an issue, is Instant Game Response turned on in the picture settings for HDMI 1?
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Instant Game Response is on. On HDMI 1 as well. The funny thing is HDMI Ultra HD Deep Color if on brings me no picture at all.

Monster Zero said:
Is 2560 x 1440 your first option under the PC resolutions list? Is the TVs firmware up to date?
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I can use different resolutions in the Nvdia CP. C9 Firmware is the newest available.
 
Blackthorn

Blackthorn

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,315
London
Alo81 said:
What game are you playing, and what is your TV's brightness setting at? Keep in mind that for the LG oleds, backlight and brightness are separate. Brightness should generally be at 50. Higher doesn't create a brighter picture (additional light output) it simply shifts the colors brighter (more white than black).

If I am playing a game where I don't like how low contrast it is, I will sometimes manually drop the brightness a bit to shit down into black. Animal Crossing is a recent example. In your house, the surroundings are a dark grey background. I lower my brightness to ~44, until the gray becomes absolute black thus taking advantage of the OLED.
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The background of the house is supposed to be dark grey. If you adjust your picture to make that black, everything else will be way off.
 

Alo81

Member
Oct 27, 2017
547
Blackthorn said:
The background of the house is supposed to be dark grey. If you adjust your picture to make that black, everything else will be way off.
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Yep, understood, i did so intentionally. Animal Crossing isnt a game that plays much with dark colors, so nothing felt lost lowering the brightness to provide that full black surrounding.
 
Tarnpanzer

Tarnpanzer

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
286
Germany
Sry to bring this thread back up, but whats the consensus with console gaming?

I always read "use Limited on consoles" and "Black Level Low on the LG OLED TV".

Why not set it to Full on consoles and black level high on the TV?
 
EvilBoris

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,680
Tarnpanzer said:
Sry to bring this thread back up, but whats the consensus with console gaming?

I always read "use Limited on consoles" and "Black Level Low on the LG OLED TV".

Why not set it to Full on consoles and black level high on the TV?
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You can, but you'll need to set it to low for the HDR mode as it's always limited range there.
 
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