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Deleted member 36493

User requested account closure
Member
Dec 19, 2017
4,982
This video sold me on ray tracing, and it makes sense that Bioshock is the perfect game to showcase it. If I'm not mistaken, a new Bioshock game is in development for next-gen consoles. If so, I hope that it's set in Rapture again, because just the added ray tracing here makes this is a world I'd like to return to:



3522fm.gif
 

CypherSignal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,064
If you're sold on raytracing by such modifications that only operate on screen-space data you need to go back and look at some of the other titles that have shipped/will ship with proper ray-tracing that includes full scene information.

All of the "global illumination" in these mods is inconsistent, noisy, view-dependent, and not at all what proper implementations give: just look at the RT Debug View shots in that and look how much the areas of the screen change just because the lightning comes and goes on the left hand. That's not what proper full-scene ray-traced GI looks like.

Not to mention the direct-reflections also using, again, just screen-space information. When data in the reflection is being lost just because the player is looking away from the stuff being reflected, that masks the whole point behind actual full-scene ray-traced reflections. Heck, this stuff is worse than most shipping implementations of regular SSR, because it's even including the HUD in some of the reflections!

YsBpG1S.jpg


The screen-space reflections and such are better than a kick in the pants, sure, but please tell me this sort of thing isn't ACTUALLY what's selling you on ray-tracing as a graphical technique just because they're dialed up in a way that's unrealistically obvious or ultra-high-contrast, in the face of scores of way better implementations built into the game's runtime that has full information on the entire scene, and/or having art built around proper material definitions instead of what most games were using last generation.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
I've never been so underwhelmed by comparison videos as I am with Ray Tracing. I literally have to rewatch the same scene multiple times to spot the differences, and even then they're so subtle. We're dropping to 1080p for a reflection or a light slightly shining on a wall?
 

capitalCORN

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,436
Much like the 'maligned' virtual texturing, raytracing is an upheaval of a production pipeline. Don't expect the full results in mostly half step implementations you see today.
 

No_Style

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,795
Ottawa, Canada
The plasmids sign @ 1:50 was one of the more significant improvements to me.

These vids just remind me that some developers have been doing a fantastic job faking it for years.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,880
Columbia, SC
I've never been so underwhelmed by comparison videos as I am with Ray Tracing. I literally have to rewatch the same scene multiple times to spot the differences, and even then they're so subtle. We're dropping to 1080p for a reflection or a light slightly shining on a wall?

Its probably unimpressive because developers have gotten so good doing without it for so long. I don't notice shit in most of these comparison videos unless someone points it out to me or its something obvious like reflections in mirrors or water.
 

th1nk

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,265
Man, remakes like this will get all my money on PS5... I hope this becomes popular!
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 36493

User requested account closure
Member
Dec 19, 2017
4,982
If you're sold on raytracing by such modifications that only operate on screen-space data you need to go back and look at some of the other titles that have shipped/will ship with proper ray-tracing that includes full scene information.

All of the "global illumination" in these mods is inconsistent, noisy, view-dependent, and not at all what proper implementations give: just look at the RT Debug View shots in that and look how much the areas of the screen change just because the lightning comes and goes on the left hand. That's not what proper full-scene ray-traced GI looks like.

Not to mention the direct-reflections also using, again, just screen-space information. When data in the reflection is being lost just because the player is looking away from the stuff being reflected, that masks the whole point behind actual full-scene ray-traced reflections. Heck, this stuff is worse than most shipping implementations, because it's even including the HUD in some of the reflections!

YsBpG1S.jpg


The screen-space reflections and such are better than a kick in the pants, sure, but please tell me this sort of thing isn't ACTUALLY what's selling you on ray-tracing as a graphical technique just because they're dialed up in a way that's unrealistically obvious or ultra-high-contrast, in the face of scores of way better implementations built into the game's runtime that has full information on the entire scene, and/or having art built around proper material definitions instead of what most games were using last generation.
I didn't even notice the text being reflected. LOL that's hilarious!!

Do you have an example? Because out of all of the comparison videos I've seen, this is the one that impressed me the most. But if you have something that you think is more impressive, I'd like to see it.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,680
Much like the 'maligned' virtual texturing, raytracing is an upheaval of a production pipeline. Don't expect the full results in mostly half step implementations you see today.

Personally I don't even really see the major benefit being to real time rendering within videogames themselves, but the ability for better assets to be created during production, being easily able to see real time results of a low performance ray traced environment or asset vs a high performance close approximation.
This is what happens now, but the time it takes to render , even if it's only 30seconds is an age where you are making frequent tweaks and adjustments
 

Phellps

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,800
The reflections are great for all the wet surfaces the game has. If a bit overdone.
 

capitalCORN

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,436
Personally I don't even really see the major benefit being to real time rendering within videogames themselves, but the ability for better assets to be created during production, being easily able to see real time results of a low performance ray traced environment or asset vs a high performance close approximation.
This is what happens now, but the time it takes to render , even if it's only 30seconds is an age where you are making frequent tweaks and adjustments
It's hard to see into the future. But I also see it as a production tool, since games are only going to get more expensive. But I still see the prospect of a full fat GI implementation as a end-all be-all as well.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,819
I don't see a difference in the gif.
Same for me - if I put off my glasses. I use about 3 dioptre lenses on both eyes, so hard to ignore, but many people develop slight levels of myopia (or hyperopia ) without ever getting treatment (glasses or a laser operation) for it. If your insurance covers it, you might wanna get an examination of your effective eyesight. It could be a (pun intended) eye-opening experience.
 

BRSxIgnition

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,596
I don't understand how some people say RT isn't the next big thing.

Pathtraced global illumination makes current games look next gen when used - just look at Metro Exodus. The lighting there looks downright harsh and fake when compared to when it used RT Global Illumination.
 

scitek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,054
please tell me this sort of thing isn't ACTUALLY what's selling you on ray-tracing as a graphical technique just because they're dialed up in a way that's unrealistically obvious or ultra-high-contrast, in the face of scores of way better implementations built into the game's runtime that has full information on the entire scene, and/or having art built around proper material definitions instead of what most games were using last generation.

The benefits of full-on RT haven't really been shown off properly from what I've seen - I mean in marketing material and such that would explain to the layman exactly what it does. The best example out there right now is Quake 2 RTX, and neither Nvidia or Bethesda has really bothered to use it as a showcase for the technology. It's a shame, because as soon as you get into a dark room in Q2RTX, you understand exactly what a difference maker RT can be.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,680
It's hard to see into the future. But I also see it as a production tool, since games are only going to get more expensive. But I still see the prospect of a full fat GI implementation as a end-all be-all as well.

I think this is also why the results for gamers appear fairly underwhelming to many, especially in performance vs cards without RTX.
I honestly believe this technology has been made for the 3D industry, whether that is in a movie studio like Pixar or Dreamworks or whether it's in automotive marketing , the Ikea catalogue or ray tracing the megatextures I Doom at 200x the speed.
 

capitalCORN

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,436
I think this is also why the results for gamers appear fairly underwhelming to many, especially in performance vs cards without RTX.
I honestly believe this technology has been made for the 3D industry, whether that is in a movie studio like Pixar or Dreamworks or whether it's in automotive marketing , the Ikea catalogue or ray tracing the megatextures I Doom at 200x the speed.
All I'm saying is that the experimental mod shit that spawned after idTech 4 was a mile wide revelation beyond Doom 3 itself. Doom 3 was obviously a dead end, but RT sure as hell isn't.
 

Folie

Member
Dec 16, 2017
634
I don't understand how some people say RT isn't the next big thing.

Pathtraced global illumination makes current games look next gen when used - just look at Metro Exodus. The lighting there looks downright harsh and fake when compared to when it used RT Global Illumination.

Do you have any good example gifs of it? Ray tracing always makes me feel dumb when it gets brought up, struggle to see a difference that merits all the required power
 

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,706
Do you have any good example gifs of it? Ray tracing always makes me feel dumb when it gets brought up, struggle to see a difference that merits all the required power

That is the power of next gen. Barely noticeable difference at the cost of frame rate. The difference also can't be seen in a tiny gif. You gotta be 4K to even notice the difference.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
It doesn't look like much because you cant really patch it in like that. They are using the hardware but not quite in the way the designers had in mind.
 

GTAce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,163
Bonn, Germany
Damn, I tried for ages to get it working in BioShock 2....

EDIT: And of course people here don't understand the difference between a GI shader solution via ReShade and "real" ray tracing.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,090
I've never been so underwhelmed by comparison videos as I am with Ray Tracing. I literally have to rewatch the same scene multiple times to spot the differences, and even then they're so subtle. We're dropping to 1080p for a reflection or a light slightly shining on a wall?
I think it's a ridiculous thing to put any effort towards right now. A painting can be stunning despite imperfect representation of light and a photograph isn't automatically good just because it's maximally realistic.

The idea that this kind of rendering accuracy will have a significant subjective impact for a significant portion of gamers is fundamentally misguided IMO.

It's fun for rendering tech fetishists I guess, and it gives enthusiasts something to do with their $1000+ GPUs, but I truly hope next gen consoles don't try to make it a core feature bullet point.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,090
Having said what I did above, I do very much like the look of these Minecraft videos. But how much of that look can be closely approximated with far cheaper techniques?
 

GTAce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,163
Bonn, Germany
The idea that this kind of rendering accuracy will have a significant subjective impact for a significant portion of gamers is fundamentally misguided IMO.
Proper ray tracing will be the biggest graphical jump since years. You underestimate it because of the baby steps we see now. Just look at the Minecraft example, which is just a mod and not even properly utilizing all possibilities of the tech.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
If implementing RT is basically flipping a switch then that's a very good thing. Right now I don't think it's worth it on mainstream hardware. We need performance and image quality far more.
I think performance and IQ are there already with mainstream hardware. not everyone cares for such pristine IQ and framerate
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,090
Proper ray tracing will be the biggest graphical jump since years. You underestimate it because of the baby steps we see now. Just look at the Minecraft example, which is just a mod and not even properly utilizing all possibilities of the tech.
You're right, I should have been more clear that I meant right now, these first steps are very costly and unimpressive. I understand the eventual potential. I don't object to the option to use RT in PC games. I don't want to see this messing with console development, though, until the performance cost is less critical.
 

snail_maze

Member
Oct 27, 2017
974
There is a star wars force unleashed (2?) Vid on that channel which is pretty funny. It has carpets being as reflective as polished floors and the HUD was being reflected in the level too. Like adding it in after the fact is fun but pretty pointless all in all
 

AfropunkNyc

Member
Nov 15, 2017
3,958
Ray tracing personally doesn't do anything to improve gameplay for me. its a effect i might not even notice if i was playing a game.