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Bill Maher on Fat Shaming and James Corden's Response
- Thread starter Khaos Prime
- Start date
I feel like most of this argument is due to the ambiguity of what the term shaming connotes and people zeroeing in on the extremes. Isn't it just a classic language confusion?
Shaming in the sense of bullying is always bad. Yes overweight people usually have low self-esteem over their weight already and getting bullied for it can make self-efficacy hit rock bottom, or even the desire to become more healthy as giving in to the bullies. Fat-shaming taken to mean this sort of bullying is counter productive and simply mean.
But calling overeating bad in itself is also a form of shaming, because it's predicated on doing something against the societal norms. There are societal norms to fitness and these can I would argue sometimes be good for people. What is a societally acceptable figure is based on peer evaluation, and so some societies (or even individual towns) have a much bigger obesity problem than nearby others based on what is perceived to be the normal in that society. Culture and subsequently other people's opinions are a factor in the way we deal with food. Analogously to this argument, there's that well known research that people who drink alcohol a few times per week tend to live longer than people who don't drink at all. For some time the working hypothesis has been that this is not really due to beneficial health effects of alcohol (which there probably aren't any), but that drinkers tend to have more social groups and can admonish each other when they're becoming unhealthy. Peer-group admonishment can help in battling obesity.
Basically it kind of depends how strong the shaming is and where it comes from. Though people rationalizing their meanness for "it's really good for the obese people" should rethink the genuineness of their empathy. Given his history, I would rather lump Maher in with the latter.
Shaming in the sense of bullying is always bad. Yes overweight people usually have low self-esteem over their weight already and getting bullied for it can make self-efficacy hit rock bottom, or even the desire to become more healthy as giving in to the bullies. Fat-shaming taken to mean this sort of bullying is counter productive and simply mean.
But calling overeating bad in itself is also a form of shaming, because it's predicated on doing something against the societal norms. There are societal norms to fitness and these can I would argue sometimes be good for people. What is a societally acceptable figure is based on peer evaluation, and so some societies (or even individual towns) have a much bigger obesity problem than nearby others based on what is perceived to be the normal in that society. Culture and subsequently other people's opinions are a factor in the way we deal with food. Analogously to this argument, there's that well known research that people who drink alcohol a few times per week tend to live longer than people who don't drink at all. For some time the working hypothesis has been that this is not really due to beneficial health effects of alcohol (which there probably aren't any), but that drinkers tend to have more social groups and can admonish each other when they're becoming unhealthy. Peer-group admonishment can help in battling obesity.
Basically it kind of depends how strong the shaming is and where it comes from. Though people rationalizing their meanness for "it's really good for the obese people" should rethink the genuineness of their empathy. Given his history, I would rather lump Maher in with the latter.
You seem to be indulging in a spot of self victimisation. But we know that in 1976 the English used to eat more calories than they do now, yet obesity was not a issue as it is today for England.
So here's the first big surprise: we ate more in 1976. According to government figures, we currently consume an average of 2,130 kilocalories a day, a figure that appears to include sweets and alcohol. But in 1976, we consumed 2,280 kcal excluding alcohol and sweets, or 2,590 kcal when they're included. I have found no reason to disbelieve the figures.
It seems the issue is more about what we're eating, or more correctly what is being sold to us to eat. Note the Guardian story points out children exercise for the same amount of time "today" as 50 years ago.
Saying it's a personal issue is all very well and good, but obesity and it's increasing incidence is society wide and actully seem's to have been engendered by that very society.
I kinda agree with what Maher is saying and no, I don't think he's being serious with "fat shaming needs to make a comeback". If anything, this whole segment would have been better without that sentence.
There is a debate to be had about how helpful the "body positivity" movement is though and that was my big takeaway from the segment, not that "it's time to start fat-shaming people again".
There is a debate to be had about how helpful the "body positivity" movement is though and that was my big takeaway from the segment, not that "it's time to start fat-shaming people again".
User Banned (1 Day): Body Shaming
I understand and agree with you, but as I said celebrating obesity is not good (in the same way that celebrating being skeletal is not healthy). That's all I'm saying.
Example:
I've heard he's a giant piece of shit. I can agree with him here, though.
Eh, I wish I had been fat shamed 10 years ago.
I gained 40 lbs from high school through the end of college and through the first few years of marriage. Sure, I knew my clothes stopped fitting, but I never really saw myself as overweight or even noticed a difference in the mirror. Then I saw one specific picture of me that I couldn't believe, and compared it to where I had been years ago, and I pretty much made a lifestyle change on the spot. 6 months to a year later and I was back to my high school weight.
The problem was, I really had no idea. Even just a few jabs at being chubby would have been enough to kick me in gear.
Not advocating for fat shaming across the board, just sharing an anecdote.
I gained 40 lbs from high school through the end of college and through the first few years of marriage. Sure, I knew my clothes stopped fitting, but I never really saw myself as overweight or even noticed a difference in the mirror. Then I saw one specific picture of me that I couldn't believe, and compared it to where I had been years ago, and I pretty much made a lifestyle change on the spot. 6 months to a year later and I was back to my high school weight.
The problem was, I really had no idea. Even just a few jabs at being chubby would have been enough to kick me in gear.
Not advocating for fat shaming across the board, just sharing an anecdote.
Assuming you're financially set and not in poverty you can still pick what to eat.
I understand and agree with you, but as I said celebrating obesity is not good (in the same way that celebrating being skeletal is not healthy). That's all I'm saying.
Example:
So, a fat person existing is 'celebrating obesity'? As far as I am aware, the magazine did not have a piece on why you should try to be fatter.
Where is Tess Holliday allowed to be seen? Should she be pixelated if she's in the audience of a televised event?
Fat people exist.
Ok. I don't want to argue. Fat shaming is terrible, no doubt about it, but so is ignoring the problem and stroking egos... It's not healthy.
Being underweight is worse for your health then being overweight, yet I doubt you go round posting magazine covers of underweight women which are the norm like 99% of the time. But you did chose to pick a picture of an overweight women when it's a lot rarer because "unhealthy". Overweight people are not dumb , they know why they get treated differently then underweight people and why their phots being promenient bother people, and hey know damn well it has fuck all to do with health
So fuck the poor right... You should read the story it covers this, the writer does argue for changes in society so even the poor's can enjoy obesity free society ala 70s as opposed to defaulting to "only losers are fatties" and "make better choices simpletons."
Maybe forcing food manufactures to stop adding so much sugar to chips, bread, and drinks may help, much like how taxing tobacco, killing their ability to advertise, and banning smoking indoors has actully resulted in better health out comes for societies.
No it's not and it is impossible for some. Food deserts are growing and under-reported. Just a few weeks ago, they identified several new food deserts in the capital city of the state I live in. Main reason is store closures and distance to the next store. Affects thousands of people. Mostly black and most of them had to walk.
They are set to fail.
This is why fat shaming doesn't work. It's also why the "pie in the sky, everyone should be vegan" nonsense doesn't work either. Over 38 million Americans are in or near a food deserts and don't have access to fresh, affordable foods. And the number is growing.
Read my comment:
"I understand and agree with you, but as I said celebrating obesity is not good (in the same way that celebrating being skeletal is not healthy)."
It's not skeletal, it's underweight.
And again, I doubt you bring up the covers of women in magazines normally which are underweight even if they don't look skeletal.
You are referring to a woman existing in a swimsuit ( you know, that thing you need to wear for exercise which is healthy?) as promoting unhealthiness but you have no evidence it actually does. Plus sized women exist and they should be encouraged that they can go out in public and be seen as human, especially since there's studies that suggest girls drop off doing exercise and sport a lot earlier than boys because of self esteem issues due to their bodies. If you wanted to promote healthy behaviour, an overweight women in a swimsuit being seen as normal is actually a good thing- how do you expect overweight people to lose weight if they are too ashamed to actually go out and be active?
Not an official study of course, but here's a video I was actually watching just yesterday about this very subject:
He does so constantly. "Corn subsidies should not be a thing" etc etc.
the gist of what you are saying is fat people cannot and should not be successful because they will then have celebrity and be celebrated... That model built a career being who she is.
I caught that as well... Lots of "ummm... okay?" applauds...
Apparently people need to be reminded that print is dead. Particularly magazines:
Print fashion mag covergirls don't make anybody depressed and in particular aren't entering the orbit a teenage girl's attention. If someone is self conscious about their body, it's likely their skinny popular friend's Snapchat posts or a YouTube influencer nobody ever heard of.
Print fashion mag covergirls don't make anybody depressed and in particular aren't entering the orbit a teenage girl's attention. If someone is self conscious about their body, it's likely their skinny popular friend's Snapchat posts or a YouTube influencer nobody ever heard of.
You read way to into that. I want to end food deserts and increase access to fresh produce and meats for that can be affordable for people. Soda taxes are a good thing. But business will keep trying to get around whatever we regulate. In the meantime, if you can afford it, they can't add sugar to fresh produce.
Apparently people need to be reminded that print is dead. Particularly magazines:
Print fashion mag covergirls don't make anybody depressed and in particular aren't entering the orbit a teenage girl's attention. If someone is self conscious about their body, it's likely their skinny popular friend's Snapchat posts or a YouTube influencer nobody ever heard of.
This is disingenuous. If you're saying what I think you are. Because you downplay how prevalent it is.
We are bombarded with unrealistic beautiful women just as much as we ever were. I mean just look at the popular influencers like Kendal Jenner who has made a billion selling products and walking runways. Unrealistic beauty surrounding us never went anywhere and never will.
Those teenage girls are bombarded with just as much as they ever were. They're just getting it all over the internet.
And those magazine covers are at every aisle at checkouts. Enough for those girls to see them.
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The point I was making, that print is dead and doesn't influence anyone BUT that the internet does - was pretty clear.
Also, periodicals are not at every aisle. Particularly self checkout.
When you say "but" you kind of negate everything that came before it. It was a good thing you don't want people to be shamed, but when you say "but it shouldn't be normalized", I mean I guess I should have made a more substantial reply but now other people have explained it- not only is it not normalized in our society, but also the goal of mormalizing is just to treat people as normal and well, not to advocate for people being unhealthy.
That is celebrating an individual, not celebrating obesity. Do you thin fat people just shouldn't have any confidence, they shouldn't put themselves put there?I understand and agree with you, but as I said celebrating obesity is not good (in the same way that celebrating being skeletal is not healthy). That's all I'm saying.
Example:
Our society shouldn't put high fructose corn syrup in everything. Making smart choices as to what we sell will help everyone.
Pointing your finger and shaming or bullying people with mental issues is not ok.
It's that simple. We can help everyone by making a collective choice to sell better options.
It will never happen though.
Bill mahr's argument is weak and cold hearted.
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That's an interesting observation, I never realized it had been studied? I stopped doing swim team when I was like 10 because I felt like I was too fat and have been embarrassed to be in a swimsuit ever since even though I'm not actually that fat.
It has been a real while since I read the article - it was how the focus on getting kids into sports after 2012 Olympics in the UK hadn't really worked for girls, I don't know if I'd be able to find it. But there is defo a large difference in the no. of boys that do regular exercise/sport and girls, and it defo starts around puberty. From surveys I think they found a common thread of girls being insecure about their bodies. It matches my experience down to a T, mine would be similar to yours in when I was young I used to love to swim and do sports but as I went into the teens I felt way to insecure and fat. Any exercise I did was at home in private, and was more due to me feeling particularly fat and a binge period of wanting to lose weight (it was in no way sustainable) then any desire for healthiness. This thinking has followed me into adulthood and I still struggle with this thinking. I have started going to the gym but while I feel better after exercising, I still put it off as I feel fat and ridiculous while exercising.
I'm a fat fuck and don't care that I'm fat or how people view me, I like eating food that is bad for me.
Also, why do Americans like James Cordon, I can't figure it out?
Also, why do Americans like James Cordon, I can't figure it out?
Because as a society needs more and more healthcare the entire industry gets more expensive. So you either pay a higher premium if you are on a private provider or taxes have to go up for the increasing required budget. Businesses also have to spend money on accessibility modifications.
Imagine thinking that acknowledging an overweight human being do not deserve to be shunned if they're fat as ego stroking.
Even the guy his writers stole the bit from was pissed at the mention of bullying and he's a massive bully.
I don't like Maher but I agree with the undercurrent of his rant, it's when he starts saying we should start shaming people rather than helping them is where he goes way off target.
The fat acceptance movement is a serious threat to people's health and is going to fuck so many people over. At least big pharma, the fashion industry and the fast food industry can make more money off those who are at extreme risk under the pretence of progression.
I don't like Maher but I agree with the undercurrent of his rant, it's when he starts saying we should start shaming people rather than helping them is where he goes way off target.
The fat acceptance movement is a serious threat to people's health and is going to fuck so many people over. At least big pharma, the fashion industry and the fast food industry can make more money off those who are at extreme risk under the pretence of progression.
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I might as well mention that ERA's favorite asshole, Milo Yiannoupolis, made the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT about 3 years ago.
Every obesity thread on this board goes the same way. We see a headline about obesity, people make any suggestion on how to combat obesity, and those people get scolded for fat shaming and post about how easy it is to become obese in western countries (which is true) and how its basically impossible to be healthy (which is not true) and any other interpretation or suggestion is wrong and not welcome.
Have been bullied about this whole my childhood, mainly by the closest ones, no I am fit, thanks to liver transplant, because it was contributing factor for drinking my liver off. I lot 40kgs and I need to exercise, because I was basically muscle-less. And I don't gain weight, even though, I eat far more, maybe it was my liver which were fucked from the beginning. Maybe...because I only drank for 4 years. Abstinent before and never was into fast-foods and junk food, sweet drinks. Like soda or something like that.
So technically, it works, with lots of •••••••••
So technically, it works, with lots of •••••••••
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To serve their own agenda, people like Corden are misrepresenting what Maher was saying by focusing on his punchlines instead of his points.
Maher is not actually advocating for bullying. He's calling for a rejection of across-the-board body positivity.
He's saying that in the name of political correctness, our society has twisted itself into refusing to admit that being fat is bad. Not bad like morally wrong, but bad like it makes you sick.
Corden and his ilk want to make out that Maher is calling obesity an aesthetic crisis, but Maher is saying it's a medical crisis.
Maher is not actually advocating for bullying. He's calling for a rejection of across-the-board body positivity.
He's saying that in the name of political correctness, our society has twisted itself into refusing to admit that being fat is bad. Not bad like morally wrong, but bad like it makes you sick.
Corden and his ilk want to make out that Maher is calling obesity an aesthetic crisis, but Maher is saying it's a medical crisis.
Can you link anything mainstream that says being fat isn't bad?
Even then, healthy food is widely available and cheap. A lb of frozen peas costs $1.
I am going to keep shaming people (in my head or to my partner) for unethical consumption like fast food eaters whether they are fat and unhealthy or not. Everytime I pass by my local McDonalds there is a large line of SUVs that I just don't understand. It's not fast, cheap, or good. I am also going to shame you for driving way too big of a car, driving short distances and/or not using mass transit, living in a McMansion, buying too much plastic shit you don't need at Costco, or for over-fertilizing your lawn among many other things I find inconsiderate.
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Then shouldn't we go after the food industry for its usage of massive amounts of sugar?