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Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,782
It's not half a vaccination.

You are vaccinated after one shot, to a higher percent than some flu vaccines offer. Your second vaccine gives you even more protection, but the first shot is still a vaccination.
Yes, but the second vaccination gets you to 95%. by getting the body to aggressively produce lingering antibodies.. The first does gets the body to recognize the virus and plan to respond in the future. One dose may not provide enough coverage for immunocompromised populations.
 

cyba89

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,628
This was also discussed in Germany but so far adviced against by some experts. The problem is there is very little data about how effective the vaccine really is after the first dose and how long you can delay the second dose.
 

Foltzie

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,782
Yeah, just generalizing. I just feel like some states aren't even prepared for more doses, it's crazy. I wish there was some kind of universal system in place, sign up here, it feeds to the state which lets you know where and when it is your turn. Seems like 9 months was long enough for them to have organized something like that :(
It was, the administration chose to pass the buck to the states.
 

Tremorah

Member
Dec 3, 2018
4,951
Isnt it like 60% proof with one and 95% with two with the two step vaccines?

Better than 0%

Its a new virus to us so having some protection is better than a lot i guess
 

Megabreath

Member
Oct 25, 2018
2,663
Sounds the same as what is happening in the UK.

I think I heard on BBC, that even if you do contract the virus after only having one dose it still offers some protection and prevents serious symptoms, although the problem there is you can still spread it to other people.
 

Nigel Tufnel

Member
Mar 5, 2019
3,146
We have a pretty big vaccine distribution infrastructure challenges that will need a lot of work before simply releasing the doses, too. Like, mobilizing the guard kind of escalation, I think.
 

plagiarize

Eating crackers
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,511
Cape Cod, MA
Yes, but the second vaccination gets you to 95%. by getting the body to aggressively produce lingering antibodies.. The first does gets the body to recognize the virus and plan to respond in the future. One dose may not provide enough coverage for immunocompromised populations.
If we only had a vaccine that offered 70% protection, we could still make that work. Fortunately, we have something even better.
 

piratepwnsninja

Lead Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,811
I have a Type-1 Diabetic friend, whose wife is also a medical care professional. His wife doesn't fall into 1A, but both of them fall into 1B. What I've learned from them having called around to various facilities the past two weeks is that each vial contains a certain number of doses, but, the doses also have limited shelf life (maybe once opened? it wasn't totally clear). Most places instructed them to call back at the end of the day to see if they had any doses that they needed to use, and they both got their vaccine on Tuesday.

I guess the theory employed by Biden's team here is that having even half-efficacy is better than nothing, and with them coordinating better distribution and potentially enabling faster production, the rolling availability will still roughly match up with guidelines for secondary doses, due to how they need to be used.
 

Tagg

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,717
This is what the UK is doing and it has been advised against by all the drug companies.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,804
It makes perfect sense in the interim while production ramps up. We need to get over the hump to control the outbreak.
 

cyba89

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,628
If we only had a vaccine that offered 70% protection, we could still make that work. Fortunately, we have something even better.

According to Biontech there's currently no data about how long protection remains after the first dose as this was not studied in their trials.

You can't say just something like "70% is still better than your regular flu shot" as that's not how this vaccine was researched and tested.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,975
I posted this in an edit to my earlier post, but generally, this is the direction that major advisors are suggesting, that vaccine deployment will be much more effective the more people get that initial shot, versus the more people who get both shots. Getting more people initially vaccinated can flatten the curve quicker than getting fewer people completely vaccinated, because there's less community spread after that initial vaccination.

here's some articles that go into this:

www.theglobeandmail.com

New data favour administering COVID-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserving doses

Yet some provinces – including Ontario – are planning to keep half of their initial shipments in the freezer in case the vaccine supply chain breaks down

www.theatlantic.com

The Mutated Virus Is a Ticking Time Bomb

There is much we don’t know about the new COVID-19 variant—but everything we know so far suggests a huge danger.

www.wsj.com

U.K. Delays Second Covid-19 Vaccine Dose as Europe Ponders How to Speed Up Immunization

Scientists in Europe are debating whether vaccine recipients should receive one dose instead of two given the scarcity of shots, the difficulties in fending off a winter surge in infections and a rapidly mounting death toll.
 
Nov 6, 2017
1,949
As some have already stated, decent immunity for many is better than full immunity for some. This is more about controlling the spread and less about eliminating the virus. I would imagine the goal here is to mimic typical flu vaccine distribution to try and get numbers down to a reasonable (while still staggering) amount. This would help increase ICU availability, allow lockdowns to ease, etc.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
It's not half a vaccination.

You are vaccinated after one shot, to a higher percent than some flu vaccines offer. Your second vaccine gives you even more protection, but the first shot is still a vaccination.

I thought the makers of the drug refuted these conclusions saying that that's not how it worked, the study wasn't made to track that.

Ugh. Doesnt sound like the right move.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,136
This is how Kanban project management works. Biden is correct so long as more vaccines are definitely coming.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,136
Unsurprisingly no one on Era seems to know how production pipelines work.

If the vaccine supply chain is steady, this is what SHOULD be happening. Go read a book about the Japanese auto-industry and how they destroyed the US manufacturers back in the 70s. This is efficient supply chain management.

They aren't giving you one dose, they are giving double the number of people dose 1 and when dose 2 comes in from the manufacturer in 24-32 days those who got the first dose get the second dose. You can fully vaccinate twice as many people quickly with this system. And as production ramps up you can quickly deploy additional vaccines.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,975
Better to have 3 million people fully vaccinated than 6 million half vaccinated I guess.

Right now, health experts -- and the coming biden administration -- suggest the opposite. That it's better to have 6mil get the initial vaccination because that cuts community spread much faster, and saves hospitalizations and ultimately lives, than for 3mil people to be fully vaccinated.

Canada started doing this:

www.theglobeandmail.com

New data favour administering COVID-19 vaccines as fast as possible, not reserving doses

Yet some provinces – including Ontario – are planning to keep half of their initial shipments in the freezer in case the vaccine supply chain breaks down

that article is paywalled on subsequent visits, but this article in the Atlantic covers a lot of it too if you ctrl+f for "vaccine" about half way thru:

www.theatlantic.com

The Mutated Virus Is a Ticking Time Bomb

There is much we don’t know about the new COVID-19 variant—but everything we know so far suggests a huge danger.

The idea is that the supply pipeline can then provide subsequent vaccinations.

Obviously we're way behind on the vaccination schedule. The Trump Admin had said they intend for 20m vaccinations by Jan 1, and we were only at 2million. Now, we're up to about 6million which is accellerating and that's good, but for every person that gets vaccinated right now there's a "Second dose" which is sitting unused in a freezer... So if 20m got that first dose, there'd be anotheer 20m vaccines just sitting there as we count down a timer until they can get the 2nd dose ~3weeks later or w/e. In that time, 20million more people are potentially providing full community spread; where as, if all 40m doses are releasd and given, then those community spread numbers plummet as partially vaccinations still have a very strong efficacy rate... and seem to prevent the most serious conditions, which cuts down on hospitalizations, community spread, and ultimately death.
 

SpottieO

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,609
So long as the supply and production is in order then this is 100% fine and everyone will get fully vaccinated in a timely and appropriate manner.
 

hydruxo

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,409
This is a good thing, and it's weird people think it isn't. Obviously Biden has people who are advising him on this.
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,337
I think this is a bad idea tbh, just seems like such a gamble. Boris is doing similar if I'm understanding what this is.
 

Stooge

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,136
This is different I believe. Biden isn't trying to delay the second dose by 12 weeks, but the idea is that if we distribute all current vaccines then in 3-4 weeks we should enough second doses due to manufacturing of new doses.

yeah, I think a lot of people are :quell shock: not reading the OP. This isn't the British plan, its a distribution plan.
 

WindUp

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,396
From what I understand the thinking on this has shifted rapidly as the mutation first found in the UK has been confirmed basically around the country. If you look at the UK numbers over the past month, it's really scary.

EDIT: as pointed out above, this is not delaying the second dose, it's more believing the supply chain is secure enough to not physically hold onto second doses.
 

Tremorah

Member
Dec 3, 2018
4,951
Yeah but is it like taking only half your course of antibiotics ? Like you're not supposed to do that.

I dont know, cant remember the last time i took antibiotics

But i guess if a country is confident theyll get a steady stream of vaccines theres no point in hoarding them

Im honestly more concerned in people actually taking the fucking thing in the first place than there being enough of it to go around

Still if ive understood this situation correctly, its a new virus to us so having any protection to it is better than having none if you come in contact to it
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,975
Yeah even a 50 percent immunity rate is better than nothing, that's fewer people needing to be admitted to hospitals, which could mean the difference between your hospital system just about hanging on or collapsing. In the UK we've just had a Covid emergency announced for London which means the hospitals are close to being ovewhelmed if not already. There's no time left for perfect strategies.

Yep exactly this.

Esp. because the first dose of the vaccine -- acc. to the trials -- seems to dramatically reduce serious infection, so even if a smaller percentage of vaccinated people to get COVID-19, they tend to have mild symptoms, which tends to be associated with less spread, and then results in fewer hospitalizations. So, ultimately, hospitals have more capacity to treat the sickest patients and save lives.
 

Begaria

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,664
Joe "Listen to the science" Biden will in fact, not listen to the science.

Those first shots need a second shot, Biden.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,975
Yeah but is it like taking only half your course of antibiotics ? Like you're not supposed to do that.

No, you still get your second vaccination, but it's not been on reserve for you for 30 days... It gets delivered closer to on-demand to when you need it. It's not like you *never* get the second dose, you still do, it's just that the vaccine that was reserved for you has gone to some other qualified person in the meantime ... makign them, now, less likely to get sick and spread the illness to an unvaccinated person.
 

honavery

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,369
Phoenix, AZ
I mean, what is the point of releasing more when we can't administer what has been already sent out? Millions and millions of doses already out there waiting to be given to folks.
 

shem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,955
With hospitals levels critical and clear scientific results showing good immunization results from a single dose we really just need to be sticking needles in peoples arms as fast as fucking possible.
 
Nov 6, 2017
1,949
Please, everyone, don't make the mistake I made by not reading the OP and article. He IS listening to science.
 

Diablos

has a title.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,575
I don't think this is a smart idea. Especially when the virus is mutating and even more infectious than before.
 

Deleted member 9932

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,711
This is different I believe. Biden isn't trying to delay the second dose by 12 weeks, but the idea is that if we distribute all current vaccines then in 3-4 weeks we should enough second doses due to manufacturing of new doses.

There's been issues with the production. That's why it's being withheld everywhere for the second shot.