• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

SAINT_

Banned
Oct 4, 2020
460
The actress has been very active on Twitter these past couple days, blasting the Supreme Court for reversing Roe v. Wade -- mostly hitting out at Clarence Thomas, it seems -- and in the same breath ... she's speaking up on women's rights. Emphasis on that first part.

Interestingly, her comment piggybacks on a now-viral op-ed published in the NYT this weekend, titled "The Far Right And Far Left Agree on One Thing: Women Don't Count" ... in which the author makes similar arguments about cisgender women being "erased" on the extremes of both sides of the aisle ... either for inclusivity's sake, or outright oppression.

While some might agree, others say it's a false equivalency to compare trying to be sensitive to trans people/using mindful language to what the GOP seems to be doing (banning abortions) ... suggesting one is clearly a far more serious and dire threat than the other is.



www.tmz.com

Bette Midler Invokes Trans Argument to Speak on Abortion, Women's Right

Bette Midler made similar arguments about cisgender women's rights that a now-viral NYT opinion piece also laid out this weekend, which drew the ire of transgender people and their allies.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,111
Could maybe mention it's about trans people in the topic? The article you quote in TMZ does.
 

Pyccko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,871
my first thought was that it sounds like an old person caught up in the midst of a conservative war on women misunderstanding why those terms exist and not a specifically transphobic thing

but I'm fully prepared to be wrong, I don't trust anybody to be decent these days
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,629
I think there are people who aren't fond of these terms, but this matter in itself is a bit more of an intercommunity thing that could be worked out.

To miscategorize this internal affair as something both immutable and dehumanizing is classic TERF tactics and just plain spurious. Dunno if Bette is doing that deliberately or being mislead by the NYT article but either way, wrong.
 
OP
OP
SAINT_

SAINT_

Banned
Oct 4, 2020
460
User Banned (Permanent): Creating a thread in bad faith, downplaying transphobia, and inflammatory false equivalence; history and prior severe bans for dismissive behavior.
Who is using the terms "birthing people" and "menstruators"?
Democrats.

I think one interesting argument that I've been reading online is why are only women being given new inclusive labels?

I've never heard anyone refer to men as "ejaculators", "people who ejaculate", or "people with penises".
 

Canas Renvall

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,535
I'm reading the snippets and the tweet and I don't really understand what makes it transphobic? She seems to be pissed about the abortion ban, but I don't get what's transphobic about the tweet. Can someone clarify please?
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,616
Democrats.

I think one interesting argument that I've been reading online is why are only women being given new inclusive labels?

I've never heard anyone refer to men as "ejaculators", "people who ejaculate", or "people with penises".

I use "people with penises" sometimes, but will adopt ejaculators lol
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,704
Brazil
The saddest part is that one of the reasons people changed "women" to "people who menstruate" is because not all cis women menstruate, like the case of .... Bette Midler.

I've never heard anyone refer to men as "ejaculators", "people who ejaculate", or "people with penises".

Because transphobes who complain this can't complain about one type of trans people without thinking about all trans people unless it stop being "ah it makes sense" and instead goes "these minorities are going mad"

This has been happening the same.

Pc7Ys0w.png

Iy0ZX22.png

YtmcMPg.jpeg
 

pokeystaples

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,354
My first time hearing "people with vaginas," "birthing people" and "menstruators" as well. Learned something new today.
 

Stellares

Member
Oct 27, 2017
524
I'm reading the snippets and the tweet and I don't really understand what makes it transphobic? She seems to be pissed about the abortion ban, but I don't get what's transphobic about the tweet. Can someone clarify please?

She is arguing against trans inclusive language and arguing the use is just as bad as the abortion bans and is erasing the rights of cis women. Its absolutely transphobic.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,286
I'm reading the snippets and the tweet and I don't really understand what makes it transphobic? She seems to be pissed about the abortion ban, but I don't get what's transphobic about the tweet. Can someone clarify please?

transphobic shitheads talk a lot about trans folks "erasing women" because they view both trans women and trans men as men stealing things that belong to women and her tweet is very much serving that energy. even that specific tweet spends more time complaining about gender neutral language than it does the abortion ban.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,111
Sorry, I can't edit the title anymore for some reason :/

I reported the post to have staff change it. It's important that the title reflects that this is about trans people, given that we don't want to ironically erase trans people in the process too.

Who is using the terms "birthing people" and "menstruators"?

Trans men and those who have uteruses, for example. Such language is important because it allows them to receive care that they need without discrimination. If you explicitly say "women", then every transgender man and non-binary trans person with a uterus who tries to receive care gets outed immediately.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,704
Brazil
I'm reading the snippets and the tweet and I don't really understand what makes it transphobic? She seems to be pissed about the abortion ban, but I don't get what's transphobic about the tweet. Can someone clarify please?

1) people call women... women. The whole point of being inclusive to trans people IS to call trans women women and trans men men. So the main complain only makes sense if she wants to be transphobic.

2) "people who menstruate" is only used in things related 100% to ... menstruation. Like most of those stuff is medically related. So if you only want people who menstruate, if you use "women" you will not only missing girls, you will not want post-menopause women to go. You will also want to people who don't identify as women but mentruate, like trans men and non binary people, to come.

3) Inclusivity is not erasure. It is not pie, bringing more people means more people gets good stuff.
4) the timing of the NY article with the roe x wade and its repercutions (like denying abortion to 10 year olds) cannot be more hilarious as body autonomy is the nĀŗ1 priority of the trans movement, so attacking the trans movement RIGHT NOW is to completely loose focus of the battle.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,111
I'm reading the snippets and the tweet and I don't really understand what makes it transphobic? She seems to be pissed about the abortion ban, but I don't get what's transphobic about the tweet. Can someone clarify please?

Trans women are women too. Trans men and non-binary/agender trans folks can have uteruses as well. Not to mention the whole "We're being erased!" while also promptly erasing trans people is insanely transphobic. It's erasure that trans men especially have been a victim of all their lives.
 

Canas Renvall

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,535
transphobic shitheads talk a lot about trans folks "erasing women" because they view both trans women and trans men as men stealing things that belong to women and her tweet is very much serving that energy. even that specific tweet spends more time complaining about gender neutral language than it does the abortion ban.
Oh, I thought it was talking about stripping everything away from women because of the abortion ban, I didn't know the tweet referred to trans people "taking" the title of woman. Thanks for clearing that up.

Sad to see people still spreading completely unnecessary hate. Do better, Bette. :(

Edit: Alright everyone, thank you for clarifying. I didn't realize the language referred to trans folks, I thought she was tweeting about conservatives/the SC just reducing women to baby factories because of Roe being overturned. I get it now, thank you for helping me get there!
 

GuessMyUserName

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,178
Toronto
I'm reading the snippets and the tweet and I don't really understand what makes it transphobic? She seems to be pissed about the abortion ban, but I don't get what's transphobic about the tweet. Can someone clarify please?
... The tweet swerves off of abortion by the end of the very first sentence.

What do you think the second half of the tweet is? I'm seriously asking because I don't know how someone reads that part and doesn't understand what it's directly referencing.
 

Canas Renvall

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,535
... The tweet swerves off of abortion by the end of the very first sentence.

What do you think the second half of the tweet is? I'm seriously asking because I don't know how someone reads that part and doesn't understand what it's directly referencing.
Covered in an above edit. Thought it was her anger at the SC basically reducing women to be baby factories and nothing more.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,948
While they're wrong to be offended like this, I can't help but think doctors using these terms should have thought ahead and used "cis women and all who menstruate/breastfeed" style language, it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble given how predictable this reaction was
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,966
While they're wrong, I can't help but think doctors using these terms should have thought ahead and used "women and all who menstruate/breastfeed" style language, it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble

The people making a big deal about this now wouldn't have given a shit.

Come on now, y'all. It's 2022.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,111
While they're wrong to be offended like this, I can't help but think doctors using these terms should have thought ahead and used "cis women and all who menstruate/breastfeed" style language, it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble given how predictable this reaction was

That kind of language is just appeasement for a group that will find any reason to complain about trans people anyhow. It doesn't really help as a result. But such a wording separates trans men/gender nonconforming trans folks in an alleviating way. There's a reason why the terms that are in use were picked.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,708
New Orleans
My SO took "birthing people" as a way to dehumanize women after overturning RvW, though once I explained why the phrase is actually used, she was fully understanding. She was exposed to the term by a reactionary conservative, so understandably she assumed the worst.

It's a shame Bette Midler is falling for TERF nonsense.
 

Br3wnor

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,982
User Banned (Permanent): Concern trolling about transphobia, previous severe ban for xenophobia and nationalist rhetoric.
The reaction to her tweets helps ensure that older Democrats will never be on the right side of trans rights. Imagine being a woman in your 70's who has spent her whole life fighting for women's rights and then get thrown the 'birthing person' curveball and all people do is shit on you instead of trying to help you understand why you're misguided, that's what's happening right now all across America. I personally believe it's a big mistake to automatically just trash older people who have trouble understanding trans issues and why it's important to include trans men in convos about reproductive rights. We completely lack historical context in this country when trying to understand why older people react the way they do to some things.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,616
My SO took "birthing people" as a way to dehumanize women after overturning RvW, though once I explained why the phrase is actually used, she was fully understanding. She was exposed to the term by a reactionary conservative, so understandably she assumed the worst.

It's a shame Bette Midler is falling for TERF nonsense.

Feels like conservatives are trying to create internal fights by associating "birthing people" and other terms with abortion issues
 

GuessMyUserName

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,178
Toronto
While they're wrong to be offended like this, I can't help but think doctors using these terms should have thought ahead and used "cis women and all who menstruate/breastfeed" style language, it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble given how predictable this reaction was
You're just falling into a trap with this by accepting their false outrage culture that pretends this is an actual problem that exists.

The outrage isn't really about the words, it's about acknowledging the existence of trans people period and you'll find this every time you go down the rabbit hole of these responses always leading to "well only biological women can give birth" or "why do we have to accommodate such a small minority". Go along with their delusion just continues down the chain and you'll next be faced with idiots saying cis is a slur (yes, a thing people actually claim).
 

JoanneAlley

alt account
Banned
Jun 9, 2022
281
While they're wrong to be offended like this, I can't help but think doctors using these terms should have thought ahead and used "cis women and all who menstruate/breastfeed" style language, it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble given how predictable this reaction was
You'd be wrong, the latest TERF outrage is about NHS guidance that literally says exactly that.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,286
The reaction to her tweets helps ensure that older Democrats will never be on the right side of trans rights. Imagine being a woman in your 70's who has spent her whole life fighting for women's rights and then get thrown the 'birthing person' curveball and all people do is shit on you instead of trying to help you understand why you're misguided, that's what's happening right now all across America. I personally believe it's a big mistake to automatically just trash older people who have trouble understanding trans issues and why it's important to include trans men in convos about reproductive rights.

otoh "pregnant people" or "menstruating people" aren't actually confusing linguistic curve balls and people acting like it's a big deal aren't people who even use terms like "pregnant women" or "menstruating women" with any regularity
 

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,095
1) people call women... women. The whole point of being inclusive to trans people IS to call trans women women and trans men men. So the main complain only makes sense if she wants to be transphobic.

2) "people who menstruate" is only used in things related 100% to ... menstruation. Like most of those stuff is medically related. So if you only want people who menstruate, if you use "women" you will not only missing girls, you will not want post-menopause women to go. You will also want to people who don't identify as women but mentruate, like trans men and non binary people, to come.

3) Inclusivity is not erasure. It is not pie, bringing more people means more people gets good stuff.
4) the timing of the NY article with the roe x wade and its repercutions (like denying abortion to 10 year olds) cannot be more hilarious as body autonomy is the nĀŗ1 priority of the trans movement, so attacking the trans movement RIGHT NOW is to completely loose focus of the battle.
Thank you for this post. As someone who has never heard these terms I was extremely confused. It seemed as though the terms "people who menstruate" or "birthing people" were being used in place of "women" in everyday conversation, which makes absolutely no sense. But in conversations speciafically relating to menstruation or birth or medical issues relating to those things, it makes perfect sense .
 

EntelechyFuff

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Banned
Nov 19, 2019
10,228
Yeah these just aren't things that people are saying. A lot of us just need to get the fuck off the internet and social media because it's skewing our world views.

These just aren't terms people use.
It's happening.

The person on the street you're referring to isn't using it day to day, but I've heard these terms deployed in bog standard radio news.

I do think there's some inelegance here that chafes with a lot of preceding linguistic evolution: we just wrapped up years of reminding one another that "disabled person" is dehumanizing while "person with a disability" is a preferred term that centers the person, to then drop "birthing person" into news stories about Roe v. Wadeā€”and that doesn't even get into the alternative terms circulating around to refer to people who are able to bear children.

Kind of unavoidable as language evolves, but I wouldn't be surprised to see "birthing person" itself go through iterations too.
 

Xero grimlock

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,946
While they're wrong to be offended like this, I can't help but think doctors using these terms should have thought ahead and used "cis women and all who menstruate/breastfeed" style language, it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble given how predictable this reaction was
I agree, without hearing the reasoning behind the terms and in the wake of roe vs wade the terms do feel like they would be used to dehumanize women. Understanding where they come from makes the terms make sense to me though.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,111
Feels like conservatives are trying to create internal fights by associating "birthing people" and other terms with abortion issues

There's no "feels like" about it. They are. That's their goal.

They can make you angry about trans people, erase trans men, and get people who would otherwise be on the same side to fight each other all in one swoop. Heck, you can see it in this thread already and we're not even one page in!
 

Hecht

Blue light comes around
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,735
I reported the post to have staff change it. It's important that the title reflects that this is about trans people, given that we don't want to ironically erase trans people in the process too.



Trans men and those who have uteruses, for example. Such language is important because it allows them to receive care that they need without discrimination. If you explicitly say "women", then every transgender man and non-binary trans person with a uterus who tries to receive care gets outed immediately.
Edited
 

GuessMyUserName

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,178
Toronto
Thank you for this post. As someone who has never heard these terms I was extremely confused. It seemed as though the terms "people who menstruate" or "birthing people" were being used in place of "women" in everyday conversation, which makes absolutely no sense. But in conversations speciafically relating to menstruation or birth or medical issues relating to those things, it makes perfect sense .
This is the intentionally misleading uproar brought out by TERFs to trigger that kind of emotionally defensive response when that's just complete strawman insanity. Nobody in the world is going up to people and just describing themselves or others as menstruators or saying hi my name is Suzie I'm a birthing person. They're just specific words meant to be used in very specific contexts that most people won't even ever experience - most doctors guides even say it's totally fine to just refer to cis women as women and only to use terms like person when speaking with someone who is not a woman.
 

meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,667
I mean, the right, the media, TERFs, and foreign bad actors have all done an excellent job the past couple years blasting out their closely aligned message that, at the end of the day, the real villain in these attacks on women's rights are actually trans and GNC folks. They've successfully convinced a lot of people in the West--celebrity windbags not excluded--that society is toppling cuz we're daring to ask to be treated on an equal plane with the more historically advantaged folks.

This sort of shit coming from the likes of... *checks notes* ...Bette Midler of all people doesn't surprise me in the least. You can be sure that the supply of unwelcome hot takes on the subject has barely been tapped yet.

Anyone asked Babs Streisand her take on this pressing issue yet?
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
11,966
Bette Midler was just getting dragged for calling women "the new N-word" just a few years ago.

People should just accept she ain't got much going on up there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.