What does BOTW's open world do that you cannot do in TES games since Morrowind?
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Bethesda-styled open worlds are woefully under-used in gaming
- Thread starter Plum
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What does BOTW's open world do that you cannot do in TES games since Morrowind?
The main thing that sets Bethesda worlds apart from the rest is that in Bethesda games the world is the main character. In other games, they're "just" a setting.
In a Bethesda game, you are free and even encouraged to ignore the main quest (entirely if you want) and create your own story through a world packed with insanely long entirely optional questlines. That's what really sets them apart from the rest of the pack, even BotW. So while other worlds focus on traversal mechanics and gameplay variety and dungeon design to elevate their open world experiences, they still come nowhere close to capturing the love gamers have for Bethesda worlds, because they're consistently missing that ultimate sandbox ability to say "no thanks, main quest" and forge your own personal narrative.
In a Bethesda game, you are free and even encouraged to ignore the main quest (entirely if you want) and create your own story through a world packed with insanely long entirely optional questlines. That's what really sets them apart from the rest of the pack, even BotW. So while other worlds focus on traversal mechanics and gameplay variety and dungeon design to elevate their open world experiences, they still come nowhere close to capturing the love gamers have for Bethesda worlds, because they're consistently missing that ultimate sandbox ability to say "no thanks, main quest" and forge your own personal narrative.
This was a great thread OP as a fan of open world games.
The secret sauce is their experience and their Creation engine. I stare blanking at my screen every time someone suggests they use a different engine. No! That engine is part of the reason why they're alone making these awesome games.
The secret sauce is their experience and their Creation engine. I stare blanking at my screen every time someone suggests they use a different engine. No! That engine is part of the reason why they're alone making these awesome games.
I love exploration-based RPGs with little or no handholding.
If you are going to point the player directly towards the next objective what is even the fucking point of an open world? Just make a linear RPG then.
Fast travel, quest markers and mini maps are the work of the devil.
If you are going to point the player directly towards the next objective what is even the fucking point of an open world? Just make a linear RPG then.
Fast travel, quest markers and mini maps are the work of the devil.
One thing I really love about Bethesda games is the towns. They may be smaller and less populated than other games, but everything is there to be interacted with. Every NPC has a name and a voice. You can break into their homes and murder them in their sleep if you want. You have to go around talking to everyone to find quests. I find this type of design much more immersive than something like Witcher 3 where sure the towns are big and teeming with people, but it's all just window dressing that ultimately serves to make traversing from point A to point B take longer.
Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are probably all 3 in my top 10 most buggy games of all time. Looking back after the CDPR disaster, I would love to have my money back for each of these busted ass games. Skyrim on PS3 was especially a disgrace.
BOTW has great traversal and the act of exploration is great due to it and the map design. That said, what you actually find while exploring isn't very interesting compared to Bethesda games. I kind of stopped caring about exploring the world in BOTW and just rushed to finish it after 50 hours
Kingdom Come is the only game I've played thats not published by Bethesda that scratches that same itch their games/nv does. I also wish there were more games in their style. So much so in fact that I actually just redownloaded and modded up NV cause I want to play a game in that style again
I thought Outer World's was going to be this but it's not. There's very little choice and consequences and not too much agency. The world also felt dead as there were barely any NPC outside of town.
Edit: Yea Kingdom Come is the one game that will scratch the itch, though it's a bit too "real" for me.
Edit: Yea Kingdom Come is the one game that will scratch the itch, though it's a bit too "real" for me.
There's much more interactivity involved for one like how elements affect the environment and Link himself.
Each segment in the world is designed almost like a puzzle that you have to solve in your own way by using the wide range of tools at your disposal like the runes, climbing, gliding, etc. The world is open but its like they fit unique micro levels into it that blended naturally.
There is a lot different from Elder Scrolls with regards to the open world.
TES's last 2 major games felt like the world was just there to put distance and a sense of place between sidequests. There isn't really much to interact with and the only major form of traversal (that wasn't quick travel) was on horseback which would get really annoying in mountainous regions. The game would reward exploration not with the journey but with a sidequest or Interesting NPC at the end of the road.
I could go on about a lot more but I think spending just a few hours in both games back to back would give you a better idea maybe.
I'm not one of those people who think BoTW is perfect as i think it had a lot of problems with its combat, systems, and narrative but its world and exploration is incredible and easily the strongest aspect of the game.
edit: I guess in the case of what OP wants and other people that like Bethesda's games is the systematic, persistent connectivity of its NPCs and quests instead of the one off sidequest nature of a lot of modern RPGs.
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The big tragedy of open-world games is they ignored STALKER (because it didn't come out on consoles).
STALKER (at least Shadow of Chernobyl) isn't the same kind of big open-world and is actually more linear, but it solves a lot of the problems of mainstream open-world games and is systemic in ways they are not, even though it came out in 2007. The way it combines action and sandbox gameplay with RPG-style storytelling still hasn't been replicated.
I totally agree OP. No open world game has ever immersed me as much as Skyrim and Fallout 3 despite how much hand holding mechanics those games have. There's just this huge level of interactively that no other open world game has. I am unbelievably excited to see their open world design applied to a space setting with Starfield. That's dream game stuff right there.
That's one of the things people typically overlook when I occasionally hear the statement that other games do an "open world" better than The Elder Scrolls.
The Witcher 3 is brought up often for instance. For one thing there are a lot of background NPCs in The Witcher 3 that cannot even be interacted with and act as basically window dressing. Same for some buildings that cannot even be entered. The same cannot be said for most Elder Scrolls titles. Every NPC outside of guards has a unique name with their own dialog and background, every building can be entered, this isn't even getting into the clutter objects that don't really have some practical use but can still be picked up and willingly moved around, thrown, sold off, etc.
I love The Witcher 3 and it's a fantastic game with a strong storyline and great characters, but the experience one typically gets out of an Elder Scrolls game in that full interactivity with all NPCs and buildings and world objects is seldom replicated by other games.
The Witcher 3 is brought up often for instance. For one thing there are a lot of background NPCs in The Witcher 3 that cannot even be interacted with and act as basically window dressing. Same for some buildings that cannot even be entered. The same cannot be said for most Elder Scrolls titles. Every NPC outside of guards has a unique name with their own dialog and background, every building can be entered, this isn't even getting into the clutter objects that don't really have some practical use but can still be picked up and willingly moved around, thrown, sold off, etc.
I love The Witcher 3 and it's a fantastic game with a strong storyline and great characters, but the experience one typically gets out of an Elder Scrolls game in that full interactivity with all NPCs and buildings and world objects is seldom replicated by other games.
I've only recently started playing Witcher 3, and one of the things I was surprised and a bit disappointed to find was that from the start the map is full of question mark spots indicating "HEY THERE'S SOMETHING HERE". Traveling off the beaten path and finding something unexpected just isn't a thing.
IMHO Skyrim is still unrivaled in the open world "genre", although New Vegas still is the best game that used BGS design philosophy. Obsidian's own take on this philosophy while using the same engine and assets provided by Bethesda made one of the best games ever.
But I still think Skyrim is the best single player game where you can basically roleplay as whichever character you want.
But I still think Skyrim is the best single player game where you can basically roleplay as whichever character you want.
Wow, what a great post, OP.
I feel exactly the same and this is the reason why I love BGS games so much. The exploring part in their games is incredibly fun and way more satisfying than struggeling through all the trivial activities in other open world titles. Starfield can't come soon enough.
I feel exactly the same and this is the reason why I love BGS games so much. The exploring part in their games is incredibly fun and way more satisfying than struggeling through all the trivial activities in other open world titles. Starfield can't come soon enough.
Count me in the Bethesda makes the best open world games camp. Something about exploring their worlds is so addictive and immersive to me. I usually can't marathon games but I can play a new Fallout or Elderscrolls game all day from morning to night and never want to stop. It's the first person view, the music, the humor, the way the map and quests are laid out, their leveling systems etc.
I don't buy games on day 1 but Bethesda, "big" Nintendo franchises and Naughty Dog I make exceptions for.
I don't buy games on day 1 but Bethesda, "big" Nintendo franchises and Naughty Dog I make exceptions for.
That's why I enjoyed playing stuff like Outward and Conan Exiles recently.
My girlfriend and I have been playing both of those games in co-op and they're very free-form in their approach. They don't tell you where to go or what to do, or what you'll find when you get there. Sure that has it's ups and downs because sometimes it means you just stumble into an area that isn't all that interesting, or too tough for you to face at that point in time, but it's much more exciting.
Both of those games are pretty janky and feel low-budget, but I've been drawn to them because nothing else offers that type of map and game structure and co-operative play. I think the closest thing that gives me that feeling of exploration outside of Bethesda's games are actually survival games like Minecraft and Conan, or perhaps MMOs like FFXIV or Elder Scrolls Online.
Perhaps that's the thing. If you're going to make a huge scale open world game, then studios are looking at ways to reduce risk. Survival games are popular and can easily be monetised, MMOs too. So perhaps it's just the case that those larger scale more free-form open world games tend to adopt other genre staples as safer options. You have games like ELEX too which I think offer some of the design the OP wants here, but honestly ELEX just isn't very good, and even Bethesda's own titles in this space are quite spotty in quality. That doesn't lend confidence to studios looking to make a new game.
I think The Witcher 3 fits the bill too actually. Yes it presents exclamation markers on the map, but you can remove them, and you don't know what they are until you get there.
My girlfriend and I have been playing both of those games in co-op and they're very free-form in their approach. They don't tell you where to go or what to do, or what you'll find when you get there. Sure that has it's ups and downs because sometimes it means you just stumble into an area that isn't all that interesting, or too tough for you to face at that point in time, but it's much more exciting.
Both of those games are pretty janky and feel low-budget, but I've been drawn to them because nothing else offers that type of map and game structure and co-operative play. I think the closest thing that gives me that feeling of exploration outside of Bethesda's games are actually survival games like Minecraft and Conan, or perhaps MMOs like FFXIV or Elder Scrolls Online.
Perhaps that's the thing. If you're going to make a huge scale open world game, then studios are looking at ways to reduce risk. Survival games are popular and can easily be monetised, MMOs too. So perhaps it's just the case that those larger scale more free-form open world games tend to adopt other genre staples as safer options. You have games like ELEX too which I think offer some of the design the OP wants here, but honestly ELEX just isn't very good, and even Bethesda's own titles in this space are quite spotty in quality. That doesn't lend confidence to studios looking to make a new game.
I think The Witcher 3 fits the bill too actually. Yes it presents exclamation markers on the map, but you can remove them, and you don't know what they are until you get there.
I struggle to get into open world games often times, but not with Elder Scrolls. It hits my imagination in all of the right ways, and I think for all of the reasons you've pointed out, OP. Well done writeup, I really enjoyed it.
The elements, glider, and the climbing mechanic are intricate features of BOTW. They designed the open world around them and absolutely nailed the interactivity experience. The physics are spot on. However, in my 120+ hours playing BOTW I don't recall many instances of humans/living creatures/animals interacting with each other in the wilderness. I mean sure, I can chop down a tree a build/use it as a bridge but after a while I am looking for some interaction with other humans and creatures and BOTW's open world is lacking in that department.
A good example is like recent Fallout update, you have a simple quest to do, but the location you go to has a bunch of bodies, some gore, and while it has nothing to do with completion, you can walk around and find visual clues to what happened. It's totally optional and has no game play benefits, but those curious you can browse and find stuff, like some journal entries full of mundane day to day activities but there is a story to the area, which you can follow to find more information where you learn the story of the people and location. You find a note then that explains what happened. But then you also find a button you can try to open which reveals a secret of what actually happened, some creepy shit.
This is pure exploration and it gives the area lore and meaning. This is the kind of stuff that really sets them apart, as none of it is required, none of it pointed out to you, it leads to no quests or rewards, it just is pure world building that BES open world games are full of.
Even when theres random NPCs, they often don't just have canned dialogue like most games do, but have actual unique dialogue, if you just hang around an area you overhear unique stuff that explains setting or gives more background to the area you are in. These are not characters you can interact with really, but they are still unique and even interact with other NPCs in the area and have specialized dialogue. Unlike say Cyberpunk where NPCs just exists to talk sex or say "fuck you" if you try to interact.
This is pure exploration and it gives the area lore and meaning. This is the kind of stuff that really sets them apart, as none of it is required, none of it pointed out to you, it leads to no quests or rewards, it just is pure world building that BES open world games are full of.
Even when theres random NPCs, they often don't just have canned dialogue like most games do, but have actual unique dialogue, if you just hang around an area you overhear unique stuff that explains setting or gives more background to the area you are in. These are not characters you can interact with really, but they are still unique and even interact with other NPCs in the area and have specialized dialogue. Unlike say Cyberpunk where NPCs just exists to talk sex or say "fuck you" if you try to interact.
I agree about your different types of open worlds, with most falling into 'Ubisoft' style.
One thing I'd push back on is that Rockstar really pushed the boundaries of exploration with RDR2's open world.
I think this is true of GTAIII up through to GTAV, but not so much RDR2. Red Dead 2 has amazing, natural exploration. The bulk of exploration in the game is unmotivated ... there's no "Go explore the Tall Trees" or "Investigate the Noise," it's this silent narrative woven throughout the entire world that tells a cohesive story about the world. In RDR2, if anything visually grabs your attention from afar you'll usually be rewarded by riding out and investigating it, and it's amazing how much joy you get by the small little details they sneak all throughout the world. My favorite gameplay moments in the game are these ... unprompted discoveries, like, deciding to follow the Dakota River to it's source on the furthest, farthest reach of the map. I just rode out there, there's nothing prompting you to do it but you can't help but explore it... and along the way you can stumble upon all of these untold stories about the world... former camps that were abandoned, people that took to cannibalism, and a half dozen other little unprompted stories, and then if you do ride all the way out there you find "The Hermit Woman"
It's a woman who has become almost feral, she lives among her wild dogs who are hostile to you, in her house she has a unique gun, and also a fragment of a treasure map. You can discover this whole way of how she lives, what she eats, her motivations. And... the fragment of a treasure map leads you nowhere but it provokes your curiosity: Where is the other piece?
Well, the other piece is on almost the exact opposite side of the map, in a shack "owned by an angry isolationist." this one is more easily discovered, it's near a town and a side-mission takes place near it so it's hard to miss. You confront a man in a heavily armed shack, and rummaging through it provides the other piece of the map ... are these two related maybe? The map, when pieced together, shows a point of location that you can't even get to until after the end game, and it's a unique gun -- "Otis Miller's Revolver" -- who is one of the dozens (or hundreds) of dead/lore, lore characters in the game. Want to learn more about Otis Miller? Well, his name is carved into 'Register Rock' (a real thing reproduced in RDR2, people who moved west would carve their name/caravan into this famous rock), there's a cigarette card of him, and you can uncover other details about him throughout the game.
RDR2 weaves this narrative element around its open world. You're not explicitly encouraged to do anything, but because you're always rewarded by intriguing story elements and world-building lore, you want to explore, and then further exploration usually rewards you in small ways: A discovered treasure map (which is one of the most fun ambient side events that the game gives you, I *love* RDR's treasure maps), a unique pistol, or some other lost fragment or minor collectible... a small in-game reward for pulling on the threads of the open world.
Reinforcing all of this is how Arthur takes notes of all of these unique locations with interesting notes inscribed in your notebook, so you can go back and read them and be reminded of the unique locations.
(the notebook page for the Hermit woman, who Arthur describes "... might be a witch...")
(Register Rock, which has Otis Miller inscribed in it, you can discover his pistol by discovering both hermit houses, finding the map fragments in them which might link both hermits -- one being Miller's wife the other being a member of the Otis Miller gang.)
Or, if you explore just north east of Menito Glade (where the second Hermit lives), there's an ancient inscription in a large rock.
What does it translate to? "We arrived by boat. Beautiful land, gracious people. So we left them to live in peace"
These little mysteries are strewn throughout the world, there's nothing prompting you to discover them, but there's a handful of missions (like the serial killer ambient mission) that kinda suggests there's more to find in the world than just what you're called to explore. The serial killer ambient side quest is the first one that I was like "Jesus the care they put into this world is amazing..." and so it kinda nudges you, the player, to say ... "Hay, maybe I should explore all of these areas if these little secrets and stories are told throughout it..."
The serial killer ambient side story is probably the most well known one in the game. En route to the first town, in the wilderness, you might discover this grisly murder scene of a disembowled person hung up on a rock overlooking 'the new world.' There's a map fragment you can discover. As you go to the next town, nearby there is a similar murder scene of another murdered person with a bizarre note. Throughout the world you can find messages scratched or painted on walls which all seem to link together, before there's a third murder scene in a more remote portion of the map near a later camp. Newspaper clippings throughout the story hint towards a killer on the loose. Finally, if you stitch all the maps together you can find a key to a locked basement that you've probably passed a thousand times already and never thought much about ... and it brings you to the climax of that story. There's nothing guiding you to find these pieces, or map markers, or anything, you just discover them, and it's early enough in the game that it encourages discovery throughout all of it.
I *love* how Rockstar did this in RDR2. And there's hundreds of these little ambient stories woven throughout the whole game, and you only discover them by naturally exploring on your own. There's easily a dozen of them that are great -- the confederate soldier who runs off is another great one -- and so memorable. The biggest one that weaves in RDR2 lore and RDR1 lore is "The Strange Man." Note, this video has spoilers:
This YouTube channel is good, about ~70 videos of various mysteries in RDR2 and other Rockstar games (primarily RDR2 + RDR), but some of them are lamer than others and theyr'e all dressed up as spooky mysteries. This one is good though, especially if you played RDR1 & 2.
One thing I'd push back on is that Rockstar really pushed the boundaries of exploration with RDR2's open world.
Plum said:
I think this is true of GTAIII up through to GTAV, but not so much RDR2. Red Dead 2 has amazing, natural exploration. The bulk of exploration in the game is unmotivated ... there's no "Go explore the Tall Trees" or "Investigate the Noise," it's this silent narrative woven throughout the entire world that tells a cohesive story about the world. In RDR2, if anything visually grabs your attention from afar you'll usually be rewarded by riding out and investigating it, and it's amazing how much joy you get by the small little details they sneak all throughout the world. My favorite gameplay moments in the game are these ... unprompted discoveries, like, deciding to follow the Dakota River to it's source on the furthest, farthest reach of the map. I just rode out there, there's nothing prompting you to do it but you can't help but explore it... and along the way you can stumble upon all of these untold stories about the world... former camps that were abandoned, people that took to cannibalism, and a half dozen other little unprompted stories, and then if you do ride all the way out there you find "The Hermit Woman"
It's a woman who has become almost feral, she lives among her wild dogs who are hostile to you, in her house she has a unique gun, and also a fragment of a treasure map. You can discover this whole way of how she lives, what she eats, her motivations. And... the fragment of a treasure map leads you nowhere but it provokes your curiosity: Where is the other piece?
Well, the other piece is on almost the exact opposite side of the map, in a shack "owned by an angry isolationist." this one is more easily discovered, it's near a town and a side-mission takes place near it so it's hard to miss. You confront a man in a heavily armed shack, and rummaging through it provides the other piece of the map ... are these two related maybe? The map, when pieced together, shows a point of location that you can't even get to until after the end game, and it's a unique gun -- "Otis Miller's Revolver" -- who is one of the dozens (or hundreds) of dead/lore, lore characters in the game. Want to learn more about Otis Miller? Well, his name is carved into 'Register Rock' (a real thing reproduced in RDR2, people who moved west would carve their name/caravan into this famous rock), there's a cigarette card of him, and you can uncover other details about him throughout the game.
RDR2 weaves this narrative element around its open world. You're not explicitly encouraged to do anything, but because you're always rewarded by intriguing story elements and world-building lore, you want to explore, and then further exploration usually rewards you in small ways: A discovered treasure map (which is one of the most fun ambient side events that the game gives you, I *love* RDR's treasure maps), a unique pistol, or some other lost fragment or minor collectible... a small in-game reward for pulling on the threads of the open world.
Reinforcing all of this is how Arthur takes notes of all of these unique locations with interesting notes inscribed in your notebook, so you can go back and read them and be reminded of the unique locations.
(the notebook page for the Hermit woman, who Arthur describes "... might be a witch...")
(Register Rock, which has Otis Miller inscribed in it, you can discover his pistol by discovering both hermit houses, finding the map fragments in them which might link both hermits -- one being Miller's wife the other being a member of the Otis Miller gang.)
Or, if you explore just north east of Menito Glade (where the second Hermit lives), there's an ancient inscription in a large rock.
What does it translate to? "We arrived by boat. Beautiful land, gracious people. So we left them to live in peace"
These little mysteries are strewn throughout the world, there's nothing prompting you to discover them, but there's a handful of missions (like the serial killer ambient mission) that kinda suggests there's more to find in the world than just what you're called to explore. The serial killer ambient side quest is the first one that I was like "Jesus the care they put into this world is amazing..." and so it kinda nudges you, the player, to say ... "Hay, maybe I should explore all of these areas if these little secrets and stories are told throughout it..."
The serial killer ambient side story is probably the most well known one in the game. En route to the first town, in the wilderness, you might discover this grisly murder scene of a disembowled person hung up on a rock overlooking 'the new world.' There's a map fragment you can discover. As you go to the next town, nearby there is a similar murder scene of another murdered person with a bizarre note. Throughout the world you can find messages scratched or painted on walls which all seem to link together, before there's a third murder scene in a more remote portion of the map near a later camp. Newspaper clippings throughout the story hint towards a killer on the loose. Finally, if you stitch all the maps together you can find a key to a locked basement that you've probably passed a thousand times already and never thought much about ... and it brings you to the climax of that story. There's nothing guiding you to find these pieces, or map markers, or anything, you just discover them, and it's early enough in the game that it encourages discovery throughout all of it.
I *love* how Rockstar did this in RDR2. And there's hundreds of these little ambient stories woven throughout the whole game, and you only discover them by naturally exploring on your own. There's easily a dozen of them that are great -- the confederate soldier who runs off is another great one -- and so memorable. The biggest one that weaves in RDR2 lore and RDR1 lore is "The Strange Man." Note, this video has spoilers:
This YouTube channel is good, about ~70 videos of various mysteries in RDR2 and other Rockstar games (primarily RDR2 + RDR), but some of them are lamer than others and theyr'e all dressed up as spooky mysteries. This one is good though, especially if you played RDR1 & 2.
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While BoTW wasn't full of copy paste shrines and literally 90% of the enemies being moblins.
I think you're exactly right OP. A lot of other open world games sort of break their own illusion with a lot of places you can't enter and a bunch of unnamed NPCs. Like I can go up and talk to the guards or random people on the streets in a Bethesda game and ask them for rumors about town or whatever. It might be the closest game-style to recreating Dungeons and Dragons in a single-player video game which is like the Holy Grail of western RPGs.
I do see your point though. In an Elder Scrolls game or Fallout, a random townsperson has a schedule, has a house, has a place to sleep, and I can enter that house and interact with it. It really adds to the world.
I do see your point though. In an Elder Scrolls game or Fallout, a random townsperson has a schedule, has a house, has a place to sleep, and I can enter that house and interact with it. It really adds to the world.
I recommend turning off the question marks, the option is something like "undiscovered POIs." Then it feels more like exploration rather than working through a checklist.
Nothing is worse then the feeling of "this is all there is" - that the one location you've visited follows an identical formula that the other 50+ locations will follow. That no matter how much you explore you're never going to find a new town or village, a secret cave or mini dungeon, or a unique quest that's off the beaten track. I get that a lot of people complain that Skyrim's dungeons can be somewhat repetitive, but they still have far more variety in terms of theme and story telling then any shrine in Breath of the Wild - at no point in that game do you ever find a shrine at doesn't look identical to the hundred other ones, or one that has a unique story attached to it, or any other twist to the formula the game establishes within the first few hours.
Some of the favourite experiences playing Skyrim came from when I stumbled upon what seams like a generic dungeon or small settlement that ends up being anything but. Stuff like the Frostflow Lighthouse location for example.
OP
OP
Yeah, I think some people believe that I'm glorifying Bethesda's overall quest design. I'm really not lol; most of their games in recent memory are full of boring quests, somewhat mediocre dungeons/levels, and repetitive objectives. However, even in FO76 which is perhaps most exemplary of these faults, the world design still holds strong. You're still exploring actual places instead of 'bandit camp #19' or 'Traversal Challenge #03', for instance.
I agree about your different types of open worlds, with most falling into 'Ubisoft' style.
One thing I'd push back on is that Rockstar really pushed the boundaries of exploration with RDR2's open world.
I think this is true of GTAIII up through to GTAV, but not so much RDR2. Red Dead 2 has amazing, natural exploration. The bulk of exploration in the game is unmotivated ... there's no "Go explore the Tall Trees" or "Investigate the Noise," it's this silent narrative woven throughout the entire world that tells a cohesive story about the world. In RDR2, if anything visually grabs your attention from afar you'll usually be rewarded by riding out and investigating it, and it's amazing how much joy you get by the small little details they sneak all throughout the world. My favorite gameplay moments in the game are these ... unprompted discoveries, like, deciding to follow the Dakota River to it's source on the furthest, farthest reach of the map. I just rode out there, there's nothing prompting you to do it but you can't help but explore it... and along the way you can stumble upon all of these untold stories about the world... former camps that were abandoned, people that took to cannibalism, and a half dozen other little unprompted stories, and then if you do ride all the way out there you find "The Hermit Woman"
It's a woman who has become almost feral, she lives among her wild dogs who are hostile to you, in her house she has a unique gun, and also a fragment of a treasure map. You can discover this whole way of how she lives, what she eats, her motivations. And... the fragment of a treasure map leads you nowhere but it provokes your curiosity: Where is the other piece?
Well, the other piece is on almost the exact opposite side of the map, in a shack "owned by an angry isolationist." this one is more easily discovered, it's near a town and a side-mission takes place near it so it's hard to miss. You confront a man in a heavily armed shack, and rummaging through it provides the other piece of the map ... are these two related maybe? The map, when pieced together, shows a point of location that you can't even get to until after the end game, and it's a unique gun -- "Otis Miller's Revolver" -- who is one of the dozens (or hundreds) of dead/lore, lore characters in the game. Want to learn more about Otis Miller? Well, his name is carved into 'Register Rock' (a real thing reproduced in RDR2, people who moved west would carve their name/caravan into this famous rock), there's a cigarette card of him, and you can uncover other details about him throughout the game.
RDR2 weaves this narrative element around its open world. You're not explicitly encouraged to do anything, but because you're always rewarded by intriguing story elements and world-building lore, you want to explore, and then further exploration usually rewards you in small ways: A discovered treasure map (which is one of the most fun ambient side events that the game gives you, I *love* RDR's treasure maps), a unique pistol, or some other lost fragment or minor collectible... a small in-game reward for pulling on the threads of the open world.
Reinforcing all of this is how Arthur takes notes of all of these unique locations with interesting notes inscribed in your notebook, so you can go back and read them and be reminded of the unique locations.
(the notebook page for the Hermit woman, who Arthur describes "... might be a witch...")
(Register Rock, which has Otis Miller inscribed in it, you can discover his pistol by discovering both hermit houses, finding the map fragments in them which might link both hermits -- one being Miller's wife the other being a member of the Otis Miller gang.)
Or, if you explore just north east of Menito Glade (where the second Hermit lives), there's an ancient inscription in a large rock.
What does it translate to? "We arrived by boat. Beautiful land, gracious people. So we left them to live in peace"
These little mysteries are strewn throughout the world, there's nothing prompting you to discover them, but there's a handful of missions (like the serial killer ambient mission) that kinda suggests there's more to find in the world than just what you're called to explore. The serial killer ambient side quest is the first one that I was like "Jesus the care they put into this world is amazing..." and so it kinda nudges you, the player, to say ... "Hay, maybe I should explore all of these areas if these little secrets and stories are told throughout it..."
Great rebuttal, seriously! Personally, I felt that RDR2's overall movement systems and lack of any true 'progression' (as in, you're still at a similar power level in your first big shootout and your last big shootout) hampered my real desire to explore, but you are 100% right in that the world itself was definitely welcoming of exploration. I wouldn't call it a 'Bethesda Open World' for a number of other reasons (for instance exploration of the open world is not your primary method of interaction with it, and most of its chunks of gameplay are not contextualised by place), but it's definitely more than the kind of open world that GTAV and its predecessors offered.
Probably the best OP I have read during 2020. Thank you for your abstraction and structured comparisons, as well as for taking the time to provide context.
I agree completely.
You feel like you are really discovering/getting something out of each location you find, each place is its own REAL thing, instead of the feeling you get with"icons placed on top of a 3D map" like in the Ubisoft games and even Witcher 3.
I mean they're way harder to make, in a way where even the people who have been working on them for 15 years now can't make one that's not riddled with bugs. There's just an inherent messiness to that sort of ultra-dynamic design.
If anything, I'd say Bethesda's huge popularity is something of a historical fluke, in that they developed the very popular open-world formula early, but it turned out that most of the things that actually made the open-world concept popular are better delivered in the more controlled Ubisoft/Witcher 3 format.
Bethesda still delivers something really cool for the people who specifically like the dynamic, clockwork nature of their worlds, and are willing to put up with its inherent bugginess, but that turned out to be a very different thing than the just feel of openness and scale that most people were actually showing up for, and that ultimately Ubisoft distilled more effectively.
If anything, I'd say Bethesda's huge popularity is something of a historical fluke, in that they developed the very popular open-world formula early, but it turned out that most of the things that actually made the open-world concept popular are better delivered in the more controlled Ubisoft/Witcher 3 format.
Bethesda still delivers something really cool for the people who specifically like the dynamic, clockwork nature of their worlds, and are willing to put up with its inherent bugginess, but that turned out to be a very different thing than the just feel of openness and scale that most people were actually showing up for, and that ultimately Ubisoft distilled more effectively.
As far as I recall, their procedural generation approach is used for the initial baseline of the "big open map" and maybe for the "dungeon maps", but an artist then goes on top and customizes it.
Its not "this is just copy pasted assets arranged this way by an algorithm", its the baseline geometry/dimension/material types and then a real artist work on top of this "canvas" to create the end product.
yeah, I agree it's not really similar to "Bethesda Style." I love bethesda open worlds too, I love them much more than I like the actual games themselves.
Bethesda has been doing these "Ambient discoveries" in their open worlds since for ever. One of my favorites from Fallout 3 was this ... random hatch in the middle of nowhere, if I remember, it's up nearish to Raven Rock. You can be wandering and there's this hill, and on top of the hill is a manhole cover that I think has a high unlock/lockpick preventing you from getting in. If you unlock it, you find a sort of bomb shelter with a computer there, pretty normal, but if you hack the computer it unveils a secret room with a skeleton wearing chinese military officer's clothes and (IIRC) a unique/high power Chinese rifle, which just tells such a great story ... that Chinese spies were in America operating covertly. It doesn't beat you over the head with it, you can just ... piece it together yourself.
And I love that.
I think this is it:
Broadcast tower KT8
Broadcast tower KT8 is a broadcast tower in the Capital Wasteland in 2277. It is located north-northeast of Vault 87, south of Shalebridge. The exterior is not very notable. There are only a radio antenna and its generator (the latter's switch can be flipped to emit Signal Sierra Romeo). Quite a...
fallout.fandom.com
Back to RDR2, yeah lack of a real progression system and like "gameified" rewards for exploration (like the training books hidden around in Fallout 3/NV/4, etc) don't reward exploration the same way as it is in Fallout 3. The world is just so, so well designed to get lost in. It's still my go-to for late at night ,drinking some beers, riding around.
There's just a couple things I really, really wish they did differently and that's with the "Compendium" and the completionists stuff. In RDR2 there's a billion collectibles that are utterly meaningless, which I'm fine with, things like ... discovering all of the dinosaur bones, discovering the dream catchers, rock carvings, and then even things like filling out your animal compendium. I really love doing stupid stuff like that in games, but RDR2's enormous animal compendium of 200+ unique species of animals is amazing... I love how you can "study" the animal, kill the animal, and skin it to kinda like uncover everything about it, but ... there's no hints about what any of the animals are. here's an example:
That's some random compendium screenshot, mine is not nearly as full, but as you can see there's 2 animals missing from this player's page, and there's just no hint or indication what the animal is. I hate that. It basically forces you to go online and google "Compendium page 1" and then write down the animals your'e missing, google their locations, and go discover them. I wish that there was some in-game way to help you fill this out.
In RDR1, there was the "Explorers side mission" or whatever, where... the game gave you tasks: Kill 7 bears, find 5 cardinal flowers" or whatever, and it'd say "Bears can be found in Tall Trees," or "Cardinal Flowers can be found in swampy areas." That's in RDR2 a bit too with the outfit crafting stuff, but it's not done in the same way... And I wish that the compendium at least gave you a hint, "Undiscovered Bird #4" or something, or the faint outline of an undiscovered animal and maybe if you click into it says "Undiscover Snake #3, can be found around West Elizabeth." There's no point to any of this, but it's something I love doing in well crafted worlds.
With the dream catchers, dinosaur bones, etc., there's also just ... nothing suggesting where they are. No in game map, no hints, you're just lucky if you find all 10 or 20. It forces you to go online and use a guide, which is a bummer. While they do the legendary animals, legendary fish, treasure maps, and other ambient side quests so well, I wish they put a little more effort into those other collectibles strewn around the map. Red Dead Online is more sci-fi than RDR2, but even something like the metal detector and the ability to discover nearby collectibles (in RD Online, your controller shakes a bit and you hear a slight "ding" as you get closer to collectibles; later you can buy a metal detector that will alert you to nearby collectibles as you ride around) would be a nice unlock in the end-game portion.
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They're expensive and time consuming. Without major backing and time, especially with Bethesda's style of open worlds.
Agree with the limitations though some people have mentioned. I learned how fast travel worked in Morrowind recently and it sounds really rewarding and easy if you know what you're doing. Go back to that. Take influence from Ghost of Tsushima and tone down the map markers, find another way of doing it. How about that clairvoyance spell that nobody ever used in Skyrim because the map markers made it obsolete.
Agree with the limitations though some people have mentioned. I learned how fast travel worked in Morrowind recently and it sounds really rewarding and easy if you know what you're doing. Go back to that. Take influence from Ghost of Tsushima and tone down the map markers, find another way of doing it. How about that clairvoyance spell that nobody ever used in Skyrim because the map markers made it obsolete.
You put into words what I've been feeling about games for a long time. Great post! Bethesda games have always made me feel like I was truly going on an adventure of my own. I had hope cyberpunk would be like this but then I opened up the map for the first time and saw the Ubisoft bloat.
We get this kind of thread every now and then, and that's for a reason. This is easily the best articulated OP that did the better job than what I always wanted to write. Bethesda open world is one of a kind, and they're a highly talented and special studio. You can hardly get the same itch from other games.
QUOTE="Hero Prinny, post: 55045075, member: 807"]
Kingdom Come is the only game I've played thats not published by Bethesda that scratches that same itch their games/nv does. I also wish there were more games in their style. So much so in fact that I actually just redownloaded and modded up NV cause I want to play a game in that style again
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Also this. Too bad about the head of the studiom
QUOTE="Hero Prinny, post: 55045075, member: 807"]
Kingdom Come is the only game I've played thats not published by Bethesda that scratches that same itch their games/nv does. I also wish there were more games in their style. So much so in fact that I actually just redownloaded and modded up NV cause I want to play a game in that style again
[/QUOTE]
Also this. Too bad about the head of the studiom
OP
OP
I don't know; the fact that TES6 and Starfield are still so hyped despite coming from the shit-show that was FO76 should show that Bethesda's games are not flukes. There has to be something there to distinguish them from games with superior moment-to-moment gameplay, storytelling, etc; personally, I think that something is the way they design their open worlds.
I mean, what reason is there to go back to Skyrim in 2020? You're getting moment-to-moment gameplay that was dated in 2011, a hokey story that most people know isn't very satisfying, and a bunch of dungeons that don't really offer too much in the way of fun. But what you do get if you start a new character is a new opportunity to explore the land of Skyrim. You can be a mage and go straight to Winterhold, or be a Nord who wants nothing more than to learn shouts and usurp the Imperials, etc. There's also the opportunity to find stuff you had no idea about, because unlike 'checklist' games it's highly unlikely that many people have truly 'finished' all that Skyrim has to offer.
Meanwhile replaying Far Cry 3 in 2020 is very similar to replaying a linear game. You're doing pretty much exactly the same things all over again with practically no change in context. That can still be fun, mind you, but there's a reason people have lined up to buy Skyrim multiple times whilst Far Cry 3's current-gen port was glossed over by so many.
Ghost of Tshushima was a bit weird because, whilst it did technically tone down the map markers, it was still very much based around following them. They hyped up the 'follow the wind' thing, and stuff like birds flying to points of interest, but at the end of the day one was just a more diegetic map marker and the other wasn't needed due to all the map icons. Either way the game still contextualised most of its 'gameplay chunks' as nothing more than that; you were either doing a Shrine, or a Fox Den, or an enemy camp, and so on; you were never surprised whilst actually engaging with these things because you knew exactly what they offered as soon as you showed up.
That is one thing I hope to see Bethesda improve upon with their open worlds, yeah; whilst exploring without a quest is better than it is in any other game, simply going to do a quest is still just 'follow the marker'. However, I don't think the games need to necessarily tone down the map markers, because all they truly represent are places that the player can meaningfully explore; it's the space around them, and the way you find and interact with them, that could be improved.
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Bah. Ubisoft world's always feel so sterile. Even when I'm attracted to them at first, most Ubisoft games I'm sick of very quickly and they don't own not sick me in. Far cry 5 so far has been the one exception. Hell far cry 4 lasted me maybe an hour before I never came back. They pretty much took the soul out of a good open world game and just put in a checklist.
What pisses me off is their checklist approach is getting copied by everyone. You can see in in Witcher (which you can luckily turn off) hell, you can see it in fallout 76 to some extent (they at least put towers in the game. Go to the top of any forest lookout and there is a spot you can survey the map and it will reveal all the points of interest around me you). And you can even see a little of it in breath of the wild though they did towers right. Instead of telling you where there is interesting stuff the towers just give you a basic map.
Sure you can turn the poi's off but here is the difference. Turn a poi off I'm an Ubisoft game or witcher and nothing will point you to realize something is interestingly nearby if you happen to go near it. In bethesda games they have the compass so if you get near something it lets you know. But you have to explore to get near things so it still makes exploration awarding. Now if they let me turn poi's off in cyberpunk I'd actually give it kudos for that cause if you aren't in your car and go near somewhere interesting it will let you know.
But I still think bethesda's approach to finding quest givers superior where you have to talk to each npc to find out who has a quest rather than the game telling you this is the npc with a quest (this really annoyed me about quest givers for side quests in Witcher).
I suspect this will become Xbox's style across InXile, Obsidian, Bethesda, Zenimax Online and Playground, much like Sony has their own style for Open World games (which I would argue is a style in and of its own, halfway between Ubisoft and Rockstar).
You perfectly articulated what makes Bethesda games special.
You perfectly articulated what makes Bethesda games special.
Great OP, it articulates the reasoning behind why I like Elder Scrolls but otherwise generally don't care about the genre. This is why Bethesda can get away with re-releasing a 10 year old game to massive sales instead of releasing a new one, why they can release a buggy mess and get a free pass for it, their open world games still offer something no other developer seems to have any interest in developing - a world which feels alive instead of being nothing but a checklist of actitivies to teleport to, complete and never return to.
Sadly Ubisoft's checklist simulators are both the most popular and easiest to make of all the open world styles, so that's all we're going to continue getting.
Sadly Ubisoft's checklist simulators are both the most popular and easiest to make of all the open world styles, so that's all we're going to continue getting.
Kinda agree. I liked exploring Hyrule in BOTW, it is an exceptionally diverse map and the verticality adds to the experience. One of my problems with the game comes in when you see how underutilised the environment is to tell stories or to invoke this feeling of immersion Bethesda (and Obsidian with NV) are great at. The world does not feel lived in. There is of course a lore reason for that but in my opinion that would warrant to make the sporadic friendly NPCs you might run into even more special, interactive, and memorable.
For me, it puts BOTW somewhere between Ubisoft and Bethesda.
I agree about your different types of open worlds, with most falling into 'Ubisoft' style.
One thing I'd push back on is that Rockstar really pushed the boundaries of exploration with RDR2's open world.
I think this is true of GTAIII up through to GTAV, but not so much RDR2. Red Dead 2 has amazing, natural exploration. The bulk of exploration in the game is unmotivated ... there's no "Go explore the Tall Trees" or "Investigate the Noise," it's this silent narrative woven throughout the entire world that tells a cohesive story about the world. In RDR2, if anything visually grabs your attention from afar you'll usually be rewarded by riding out and investigating it, and it's amazing how much joy you get by the small little details they sneak all throughout the world. My favorite gameplay moments in the game are these ... unprompted discoveries, like, deciding to follow the Dakota River to it's source on the furthest, farthest reach of the map. I just rode out there, there's nothing prompting you to do it but you can't help but explore it... and along the way you can stumble upon all of these untold stories about the world... former camps that were abandoned, people that took to cannibalism, and a half dozen other little unprompted stories, and then if you do ride all the way out there you find "The Hermit Woman"
It's a woman who has become almost feral, she lives among her wild dogs who are hostile to you, in her house she has a unique gun, and also a fragment of a treasure map. You can discover this whole way of how she lives, what she eats, her motivations. And... the fragment of a treasure map leads you nowhere but it provokes your curiosity: Where is the other piece?
Well, the other piece is on almost the exact opposite side of the map, in a shack "owned by an angry isolationist." this one is more easily discovered, it's near a town and a side-mission takes place near it so it's hard to miss. You confront a man in a heavily armed shack, and rummaging through it provides the other piece of the map ... are these two related maybe? The map, when pieced together, shows a point of location that you can't even get to until after the end game, and it's a unique gun -- "Otis Miller's Revolver" -- who is one of the dozens (or hundreds) of dead/lore, lore characters in the game. Want to learn more about Otis Miller? Well, his name is carved into 'Register Rock' (a real thing reproduced in RDR2, people who moved west would carve their name/caravan into this famous rock), there's a cigarette card of him, and you can uncover other details about him throughout the game.
RDR2 weaves this narrative element around its open world. You're not explicitly encouraged to do anything, but because you're always rewarded by intriguing story elements and world-building lore, you want to explore, and then further exploration usually rewards you in small ways: A discovered treasure map (which is one of the most fun ambient side events that the game gives you, I *love* RDR's treasure maps), a unique pistol, or some other lost fragment or minor collectible... a small in-game reward for pulling on the threads of the open world.
Reinforcing all of this is how Arthur takes notes of all of these unique locations with interesting notes inscribed in your notebook, so you can go back and read them and be reminded of the unique locations.
(the notebook page for the Hermit woman, who Arthur describes "... might be a witch...")
(Register Rock, which has Otis Miller inscribed in it, you can discover his pistol by discovering both hermit houses, finding the map fragments in them which might link both hermits -- one being Miller's wife the other being a member of the Otis Miller gang.)
Or, if you explore just north east of Menito Glade (where the second Hermit lives), there's an ancient inscription in a large rock.
What does it translate to? "We arrived by boat. Beautiful land, gracious people. So we left them to live in peace"
These little mysteries are strewn throughout the world, there's nothing prompting you to discover them, but there's a handful of missions (like the serial killer ambient mission) that kinda suggests there's more to find in the world than just what you're called to explore. The serial killer ambient side quest is the first one that I was like "Jesus the care they put into this world is amazing..." and so it kinda nudges you, the player, to say ... "Hay, maybe I should explore all of these areas if these little secrets and stories are told throughout it..."
The serial killer ambient side story is probably the most well known one in the game. En route to the first town, in the wilderness, you might discover this grisly murder scene of a disembowled person hung up on a rock overlooking 'the new world.' There's a map fragment you can discover. As you go to the next town, nearby there is a similar murder scene of another murdered person with a bizarre note. Throughout the world you can find messages scratched or painted on walls which all seem to link together, before there's a third murder scene in a more remote portion of the map near a later camp. Newspaper clippings throughout the story hint towards a killer on the loose. Finally, if you stitch all the maps together you can find a key to a locked basement that you've probably passed a thousand times already and never thought much about ... and it brings you to the climax of that story. There's nothing guiding you to find these pieces, or map markers, or anything, you just discover them, and it's early enough in the game that it encourages discovery throughout all of it.
I *love* how Rockstar did this in RDR2. And there's hundreds of these little ambient stories woven throughout the whole game, and you only discover them by naturally exploring on your own. There's easily a dozen of them that are great -- the confederate soldier who runs off is another great one -- and so memorable. The biggest one that weaves in RDR2 lore and RDR1 lore is "The Strange Man." Note, this video has spoilers:
This YouTube channel is good, about ~70 videos of various mysteries in RDR2 and other Rockstar games (primarily RDR2 + RDR), but some of them are lamer than others and theyr'e all dressed up as spooky mysteries. This one is good though, especially if you played RDR1 & 2.
Just gotta say I appreciate this post and RDR2 is truly incredible.
Skyrim has more dungeon variety than Breath of the Wild. It would literally only need two tile sets for that to be true but it has Nedic, Caves, Imperial forts and dwarven ruins. So it goes above and beyond really. I love Breath of the Wild too but that's a strange criticism to make when comparing them side by side.
For me it all boils down giving people adequate drive to discover those locations...and for me Bethesda themselves fail at that more time than not. And when you're entire open world revolves around that discovery and that exploration, If you're not making a world that people want to explore then people aren't going to see most of your world...unlike the ubisoft method which basically makes you climb a tower and reveal a bunch of gameplay icons. You at least know exactly what's there and whether you want to interact with that content from the outset. People shit on this approach but it's a lot more immediate. So you can understand why it's become to the go-to open world approach for most Devs.
When Bethesda do it well it's great and I wish more games would do similar. But as I say, they don't always do it well. Fallout 4 was a boring world that I never had any inclination to explore... and so I didnt....And if bethesda, the guys who basically originated this style of open world can't make compelling world's to explore...I can kind of understand why other Devs might not be willing to try either.
I imagine developers want players to see all the content their games offer. Like, ideal world players would see and do everything...that's a harder thing to achieve when finding said content is entirely in the hands of the players themselves.
When Bethesda do it well it's great and I wish more games would do similar. But as I say, they don't always do it well. Fallout 4 was a boring world that I never had any inclination to explore... and so I didnt....And if bethesda, the guys who basically originated this style of open world can't make compelling world's to explore...I can kind of understand why other Devs might not be willing to try either.
I imagine developers want players to see all the content their games offer. Like, ideal world players would see and do everything...that's a harder thing to achieve when finding said content is entirely in the hands of the players themselves.
