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OP
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Noodle

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
Yeah

We should have all games from stop being sold from the US considering how fucking terrible the government is in handling plenty of matters as we speak tbh

Straw man. Exactly what repercussions would companies face from the US government if they make a reference to any of those situations? What support for minority groups have companies chosen to censor in fear of US government backlash and maintain access to their market?
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Straw man. Exactly what repercussions would companies face from the US government if they make a reference to any of those situations? What support for minority groups have companies chosen to censor in fear of government backlash?
it's not about the companies, but pretty much on

Maybe those gamers should focus their ire on why their government is stopping them from playing a game because of a company Twitter icon.

Do you think people aren't trying to instigate change? Do you think some aren't annoyed and angry as much as you are about why Bethesda doesn't have a rainbow icon? Does that make them not being able to get the same things you have while at it?

This is your selfishness and privilege speaking. Generalising the gamers of those countries and blaming them for not being able to enact change, while wanting what other countries have. Makes me feel disgusted.
 

Mórríoghain

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,148
I work in PR in Pakistan.

If a single brand or business does open support of trans or LGBT rights, they'll have a fatwa declared on them. The same is for the middle east, turkey and Russia.

As bad as it is, these companies have to abide by religious and cultural laws too. Hence why the esrb and pegi exist. If Bethesda or any other brand forced their ME branch to change to the rainbow, you'd have people in that country boycott the brand.

In Pakistan we still treat trans people like crap, and the same goes for a lot of middle east countries where gay people are thrown in prison or beaten. Bethesda ME waiving a rainbow flag will only cause unnecessary trouble and they'll roll it back in a matter of hours.

From public pressure when the religious parties put a fatwa for their heads.

I know it sucks but no brand can force their regional offices to abide by blanket terms, especially something like the rainbow flag in countries where it's a literal death sentence to belong to any letter in the LGBT alphabet.

I am Turkish and you are wrong about Turkey. Homosexuality is legal here and some brands openly support the cause.
 

RedShift_

Member
Jul 24, 2018
507
My point is using a symbol of equality and support when it nets you positive PR but dropping it when it might actually matter is reprehensible. Ffs, the rainbow flag is a symbol of solidarity. Do you feel Bethesda is displaying solidarity here?

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I'm sure Bethesda would at least claim if asked that flying the pride flag is a morally good thing. So if you compromise your support of what is right and throw a vulnerable group under the bus just so you can stay in an oppressive regime's good graces so you can sell more products - that makes you complicit.

If you claim the issue at hand here is just keep selling stuff in the ME then you're still willingly ignoring that it's dangerous for companies to make this kind of statements in the ME. And, again, I'm not referring to sales, I'm referring to the actual wellbeing of its employees. I don't see any higher up at BE ME taking on the responsibility to put the whole division at risk of being targeted over a picture change. In some countries in the ME (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan [even if rarely enforced]) they have the freaking capital punishment for homosexuality. Hell, homosexuality is legal in Turkey and homophobia is as rampant as ever there.

That said, I honestly could've seen BE TR and BE RU changing it, but I guess the general state of things is much more dire than we know from the outside.
 

Mukrab

Member
Apr 19, 2020
7,510
I'm just curious about something. Even if bethesda wanted to do it in the middle east (not saying that they do). Wouldn't they be putting the lives of the people working there at risk by doing it?
 

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
it's not about the companies, but pretty much on



Do you think people aren't trying to instigate change? Do you think some aren't annoyed and angry as much as you are about why Bethesda doesn't have a rainbow icon? Does that make them not being able to get the same things you have while at it?

This is your selfishness and privilege speaking. Generalising the gamers of those countries and blaming them for not being able to enact change, while wanting what other countries have. Makes me feel disgusted.
This kind of rhetoric makes me feel uncomfortable too, for the same reason others have expressed in this thread. Especially as it obviously doesn't just relate to video games. Someone brought up sanctions earlier in the thread. LGBT+ people in these countries would surely be affected by this just as much as a bigot, with no guarantee the governments will actually change. And despite our own countries being involved in heinous actions including war crimes and illegal wars, none of us would want the same thing to be applied to us. I say this as a pansexual woman myself, but also someone who was a refugee and comes from a country where LGBT+ people are very much oppressed. I just think it isn't well thought out, even if well intentioned.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
Here's also something;

Having access to games, books, movies, that are made outside of my country certainly helped open my eyes to other experiences and values. Especially when it's very conservative in a lot of matters, with what we learnt since we were kids not being much either.
 
Last edited:

MoogleWizard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,691
Some of you seem really naive and have lived in a sheltered bubble all your lives. It's very easy to call something like this "spineless" when you're posting from a position of privilege in the safety behind your computer or phone screen 1000 miles away. There are, however, countries where publicly proclaiming LGBTQ support or simply being openly LGBTQ gets you thrown into a jail cell or much worse. Furthermore, yes, it needs repeating, corporations are not your friends, they don't support anything but their own bottom line. Everything they do and say is PR. In this case, it's both about PR and very likely the safety of their employees. Try thinking outside your bubble and you'll see the world is not black and white and showing support for sexual and gender minorities is not as easily done everywhere as inside your bubble, and can actually be dangerous. And saying they should stop doing business there is basically saying "fuck the people that live there".
 
Apr 16, 2020
27
There's never been an ounce of sincerity in corporate pride.

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This is the same logic we used to justify our economic entanglement with China: the idea that our money gives us leverage, and that leverage alone would be enough to make change happen. That the Chinese government would bend to us and our social stances in order to keep our business.

"As long as we capitalism hard enough, China will slowly liberalize itself!"

That didn't happen. Instead we got corporations like Blizzard caping for a brutally oppressive, organ-harvesting Chinese government as it violently swallows up the region's last flickering light of democracy. The leverage is imaginary; countries under the control of oppressive governments have all the power in this relationship because they can simply decide x company just doesn't get access to their market anymore if they ever step out of line.

They're influencing us. The "do business and eventually things will just get better" approach doesn't work. It is a lie.
What you write makes sense, but that wasn't really my point. Corporations won't liberate a country anyways, my point was that advertising liberal rights might cause actual harm.

If possible, one could retreat from the market, but again it is likely that a worse entity will fill the market, i.e. Russia with their games, and China with theirs.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,359
I'm just curious about something. Even if bethesda wanted to do it in the middle east (not saying that they do). Wouldn't they be putting the lives of the people working there at risk by doing it?

Only supporting a cause where it is "safe", only in the month where it has widespread attention, is the quintessential example of hollow support just for PR. That's what is criticized here.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
BethesdaRU, ME, TL PR most likely live in their own region and promoting LGBTQ can result in terrible things for these people and Bethesda can't risk their own employees.

In Russia case they even have a brand new office in the region, you don't want the russian government to storm in and detain all the employees working there.

Bethesda Softworks opens new Russia studio in Moscow

Bethesda Softworks announced today that it has opened a new studio in Moscow, Russia, which will focus on marketing and sales in that region.

BethesdaME twitter account was opened in January 2020, so they probably have plans in place to expand in the region.
Isn't it sort of wrong for Bethesda to open an office in that country when there has been much documented about how not only homophobic, but horrible in general the government is?
(In the interest of fairness, if they hadn't already had a U.S. office I would be fine with those same claims being lobbied towards the idea of them opening in the U.S.)