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Bethesda shows its ass regarding Pride Awareness Month
- Thread starter Noodle
- Start date
Also note that Les Moonves is on their board of directors.
Same guy who oversaw a culture of "systemic racism, discrimination and sexual harassment" at CBS, before being fired in disgrace.
variety.com
Same guy who oversaw a culture of "systemic racism, discrimination and sexual harassment" at CBS, before being fired in disgrace.
‘CBS Has a White Problem’: Executive Blasts Toxic Culture at Network in Explosive Letter
Whitney Davis describes how the Les Moonves investigation prompted her to reconsider her nearly decade-and-a-half career at CBS.
variety.com
Fair point, though that also hits local players who may be supportive of LGBT rights. And, as cynical as this admittedly sounds- there would not be many places left to sell products in, for one reason or another. Even in the US, there are a lot of politicians who constantly and actively try to undermine human rights, and want to make it legal to discriminate against people. Starting from their president.
It's even easier to feign caring about lgbt people with moral grandstanding while only hurting people locally. This sanction mentality is western centric and harmful
My question is whether this is a US based HQ led decision that is trying to protect their misguided notion of "cultural sensibilities."
Because there is no way that a Turkish decision maker made that decision. No way. I can't comment on the other countries but it's unlikely someone Turkish who works at Bethesda made this decision.
Also homosexual and trans celebrities and fictional characters appear in mainstream media without a fuss.
Because there is no way that a Turkish decision maker made that decision. No way. I can't comment on the other countries but it's unlikely someone Turkish who works at Bethesda made this decision.
It's not true of Turkey. Turkey isn't perfect, but it shouldn't be grouped alongside Pakistan and the Middle East in this subject. For one thing homosexuality and transsexuality is not illegal.
Also homosexual and trans celebrities and fictional characters appear in mainstream media without a fuss.
Thanks, that was the one from among the mentioned regions was I was unsure about. That's good to hear.
I don't really think this thread is all that fair and takes no account of how different things are in those regions.
If you're using your platform to stand against oppression of LGBT people, do it everywhere, but especially in countries that imprison torture and kill their LGBT community. Or don't do it at all.
I'm not in Middle East or Russia, but my country is still very conservative when it comes to LGBT matters (just last month a transwoman were burned alive for alleged theft). I think vague 'awareness campaign' like putting rainbow flags on your profile picture doesn't even pass the low bar of 'slacktivism'. Do it like BLM, where you: (1) point out specific injustices that still happen and ignored/unpunished, (2) condemn them in the strongest term possible, and (3) donate to the cause and point readers to resources where they can also give their support to. Without those, just putting rainbow flags out there and leave it at that only put unneeded pressure to our LGBT communities from powerful bigots.
Let's fuck everyone who lives in these countries then? Jeez, that's not a great idea.
The truth is - corporations will use these things for PR, but they will not lead the change. The people will have to do that. You can't outsource civil rights fights to corporations.
Are you even comparing the two? Holiday wishes to showing solidarity with people who are executed in some countries? Who have to hide who theyare? And if you think no showing solidarity with LGBTQ people is "culture and religious values" -Well then, I think you need to rethink ho you view your religion or culture. This post is 100% disgusting.
It seems you have ignored every post above about the risks of doing it. Not just corporations but even NGOs who do actual work will have to be very careful in such countries skirting regulations and stuff. Just because you're sitting in an armchair thinking people can just do it everywhere doesn't mean so.
Imagine wanting to literally murder people for being attracted to people of the same sex or for supporting those people.
Man, when will these countries join the rest of us in the 21st century?
Yes, because ignoring the problem is the better option. How do you think gay rights changed in other countries? By magic?
I'm not sitting in an armchair being an internet warrior btw. For the best part of my life I've been hiding myself because of homophobia, and believe me when I say it changes you as a person. So before you make it personal, think.
Oh, I love western smugness, as if it's all peachy for queer people in the West?
Maybe don't rank the era countries belong to - I think the west tried to help countries move on to whatever century they thought they should be in quite enough, don't you think? You can criticize these countries without coming off so smug.
It was not by having corporations change their profile pic on Twitter, I'll tell that much.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory whataboutism.
Like America, where people are being murdered for being black, or UK where... well just look at the Eton boys running the country like its a bad ketamine trip.
What a messy statement to make this day and age.
Oh, America is completely fucked up in many ways too. I'm neither American nor Middle Eastern though, I'm Swedish. So I'm viewing these things from a Swedish perspective, and I'm pretty horrified by all of it.
There aren't harsh enough words for this fuckery going on in many countries. It's a shameful part of humanity, and I won't pretend I don't believe that. Maybe I do come off as smug, but yeah, I do think my country Sweden for example has come so much further with these things.
I really disagree whether European states are really that "21st century" as they should/could be. This imagining of Europe as a standard bearer is so problematic and led to so much racism as is.
We're certainly not perfect, all countries have issues. But the Nordic countries in particular are at the forefront in many ways when it comes to human rights and being modern and progressive in general.
That does not mean you can employ "us vs them" didactic. I am coming from Ireland where people tend to say "we are not as racist" - but what does that mean? It's still on the spectrum. We are not as homophobic as let's say Pakistan but it doesn't mean we are not homophobic full stop. And that washing hands away from problems of your immediate community is used en masse to excuse racism/homo/transphobia or gaslight its victims because "we are not that bad, look over there".
Arguing that these countries need to join "21st century" paints a picture of white countries as more "civilised" or "advanced", which is absolute bs.
User Banned (Permanent): Racist dogwhistling. Multiple prior bans related to transphobia, xenophobia and Islamophobia.
I might not have expressed myself in the best way, and I don't mean to make it sound like entire countries are garbage. Of course not. I just get really angry when I think or read of LGBTQ people (as well as POC, and just people in general) having their human rights taken away from them because of religious laws of whatever it might be. It's just such bullshit, and I hate it. In this respect I don't think those countries are particularly civilized, just like I don't think it's civilized to stone women to death for cheating on their husbands. But that doesn't mean I think entire countries are uncivilized. I was referring to this particular topic.
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Its a different risk being declared a member of lgbt in america then a member of lgbt in saudi arabia. If those companies have to/want to work there they have rules to follow. I doubt anyone in leadership is going to risk the life of employees in such a state where they can be punished harshly.
OP
OP
No, I am not knocked for six by this brand-new revelation, but it deserves to be criticised for the pink-washing it is rather than tacitly accepted.
I don't see what this smug cynicism of "ha, these naive people don't know how the world really works" is supposed to achieve? I know the hypocrisy behind it, that's why it's shit and should be called out.
Many things, whether it be sexual harassment, racism, homophobia, working conditions, or plain old financial fraud exist out side the gaming industry, but as a gaming-focused forum and consumer and oft-time advocate of their products - with even some employees as members here - I believe this is worth shining a light on.
If you're not going to support LGBT rights where they need the support the most, then you're not much of an ally (and before anyone knee-jerk posts that of course they're not an ally, it's a company doing it for easy goodwill points, that's kinda the point of this thread. See top of this post.)
Indeed. I feel like some people are missing the point of this thread entirely.
There's never been an ounce of sincerity in corporate pride.
This is the same logic we used to justify our economic entanglement with China: the idea that our money gives us leverage, and that leverage alone would be enough to make change happen. That the Chinese government would bend to us and our social stances in order to keep our business.
"As long as we capitalism hard enough, China will slowly liberalize itself!"
That didn't happen. Instead we got corporations like Blizzard caping for a brutally oppressive, organ-harvesting Chinese government as it violently swallows up the region's last flickering light of democracy. The leverage is imaginary; countries under the control of oppressive governments have all the power in this relationship because they can simply decide x company just doesn't get access to their market anymore if they ever step out of line.
They're influencing us. The "do business and eventually things will just get better" approach doesn't work. It is a lie.
This is the same logic we used to justify our economic entanglement with China: the idea that our money gives us leverage, and that leverage alone would be enough to make change happen. That the Chinese government would bend to us and our social stances in order to keep our business.
"As long as we capitalism hard enough, China will slowly liberalize itself!"
That didn't happen. Instead we got corporations like Blizzard caping for a brutally oppressive, organ-harvesting Chinese government as it violently swallows up the region's last flickering light of democracy. The leverage is imaginary; countries under the control of oppressive governments have all the power in this relationship because they can simply decide x company just doesn't get access to their market anymore if they ever step out of line.
They're influencing us. The "do business and eventually things will just get better" approach doesn't work. It is a lie.
I'm sorry for coming off as condescending, but you do have a valid point. The main thing I was pointing out is that corporations aren't anyone's friends; they're motivated purely by their financial well-being and will act accordingly no matter where or when.
I also noticed how they just posted a black square on their page, but release how many black employees y'all have in senior positions? Looking at the photos from the credits of Doom it's like y'all only got 1 black person on staff and when I went to y'alls office in person there was another one at the reception desk so like none probably and maybe 2 in total?
Precisely. Wasn't that difficult to imagine either.
Don't know what OP's point is, honestly. The situation there is more than well known, it has very little to do with bethesda being willing to change a picture or not. Doing it might put people's life at risk, not just the company's dividends.
I think these kinds of public shows of support (from companies) come into play when, at the very least, the very thing they're supporting is not considered illegal in those countries. And in most of those places, unfortunately, we're light years away from that...
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OP
OP
My point is using a symbol of equality and support when it nets you positive PR but dropping it when it might actually matter is reprehensible. Ffs, the rainbow flag is a symbol of solidarity. Do you feel Bethesda is displaying solidarity here?
I'm sure Bethesda would at least claim if asked that flying the pride flag is a morally good thing. So if you compromise your support of what is right and throw a vulnerable group under the bus just so you can stay in an oppressive regime's good graces so you can sell more products - that makes you complicit.
Didn't think we'd see a "Won't someone please think of the gamers missing out on fun" argument. Maybe those gamers should focus their ire on why their government is stopping them from playing a game because of a company Twitter icon. How could you possibly rank the fun they'd get from playing a certain video game as more important than acknowledging LGBT people exist?
Is it any different from this?
It's fairly easy to reconcile several ideas here. Companies aren't your friends and their activism can be insincere and just a means to further their own financial interests. At the same time, the people at said company can definitely be allies to your cause and some of them will even be directly or indirectly affected by several social issues like sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia and other forms of discrimination. This division between the company's interests and the people working at the company is important to keep in mind when engaging with these topics. I'm of the opinion that companies like Bethesda, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Apple and so on shouldn't be praised for gestures rather than actions. At the same time, their gestures should never come at the expense of the safety of their employees.
Given the strong reactions to LGBT people and companies that support them in their countries I'd say everyone is aware they exist. So I guess this means the route thought better is to deny a wide range of products to all persons in those countries, including those who are LGBT+? Remember, it's not just game companies that go in on pride month for social awareness points.
I'd also wonder, if that did start happening and it was made clear why how much worse it might become from backlash towards both LGBT+ and those that worked for the companies pulling out.
We're a shining beacon of shit right now TBH.
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These are countries still fighting for LGBTQ+ rights. It doesn't come as a surprise that companies will not be at the forefront of that fight because they ultimately don't care. Their support in countries that have already fought for those rights, like the US (ideally, anyway) is purely PR. What you're seeing of Bethesda not showing support in places like Russia, Turkey and the Middle East is your typical company in its natural state: Not giving a fuck, unless they feel obliged to by social norms for the sake of PR.
Yeah
We should have all games from stop being sold from the US considering how fucking terrible the government is in handling plenty of matters as we speak tbh