I think there are alot of people that don't know this. Just assuming Bethesda makes all these games when they don't. I keep seeing them praised for Doom.
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Bethesda Is Officially Obsolete (The Jimquisition)
- Thread starter It’s Time To Go
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DOOM is literally all they have for me now. Fallout/TES/Starfield need modernization other then just not having bugs.
Tried it multiple times and strongly dislike it personally. I think it was a large step back from the previous games and visually unappealing. Skyrim was more than enjoyable enough, but fallout 4 was very meh for me. I prefer 3 and even then I find that very weak compared to new Vegas. Morrowind was a mess on the original Xbox, but a damn fine game.
As gaming progresses in general, it gets harder for me to excuse the overall technical quality of their releases as well.
I do think Bethesda has gotten comfortable and slipped into mediocrity, regardless of your feelings about the individual titles. I think, aside from Skyrim, each of their titles since Morrowind has underdelivered on expectations, and even in that case there was a lot of debate about if Skyrim met them or not.
The Outer Worlds is definitely Obsidian throwing down the gauntlet, though. It does so much right. I look forward to seeing how Bethesda responds to them and CDPR.
The Outer Worlds is definitely Obsidian throwing down the gauntlet, though. It does so much right. I look forward to seeing how Bethesda responds to them and CDPR.
They aren't the dev on Doom.
The lack of bugs makes that very clear but they publish it so tthas what I meant since they touch it. Also Ghostwire seems cool. Publishers still have more power then devs.
Considering Witcher 3 launched a few months before Fallout 4 when it came out it felt like such a slap in the face, what a average as hell game I never bothered finishing.
I hate the setting is fallout games, that retro future stuff makes me gag yet I fount sneaking around with my dog taking fools out with a pistol was more then enough to keep me entertained the entire game (much prefer Skyrim setting to fallout).
The Corporation are evil future is almost as dull to me but without that core sneaky gameplay that Bethesda had I've given up on Outer Worlds. A poster suggested you can get to that kind of gameplay in Outer Worlds if you stick with it long enough but I don't want to play for 10+ hours to do something that took me 15 mins to do in Fallout. If 10hrs I want to be in the face of a bad guy and him not know that I'm there lol.
If the story was more interesting to me I'd prob push through but yeah couldn't care less about space corporations.
The Corporation are evil future is almost as dull to me but without that core sneaky gameplay that Bethesda had I've given up on Outer Worlds. A poster suggested you can get to that kind of gameplay in Outer Worlds if you stick with it long enough but I don't want to play for 10+ hours to do something that took me 15 mins to do in Fallout. If 10hrs I want to be in the face of a bad guy and him not know that I'm there lol.
If the story was more interesting to me I'd prob push through but yeah couldn't care less about space corporations.
Fallout 1 is my favorite game of all time.
Fallout 4 is a VERY different game than 1. I completely recognize how different they are (dialogue, quests, lore, role playing options, fov, perspective, etc.)
HOWEVER.
I still played 4 for over 300 hours. Art direction was great, sense of exploring was well done and in general the ability of the game of allowing me to role play as a "vault dweller coming out to a very different future" was very appreciated.
I really "role" played in Fallout 4, as myself, and every single minute of it felt great.
Product wise is an average 7.5/10 but it was a 9/10 experience for me.
I get the Fallout 76 jokes and comparison but Fallout 4 was not a bad game.
Fallout 4 is a VERY different game than 1. I completely recognize how different they are (dialogue, quests, lore, role playing options, fov, perspective, etc.)
HOWEVER.
I still played 4 for over 300 hours. Art direction was great, sense of exploring was well done and in general the ability of the game of allowing me to role play as a "vault dweller coming out to a very different future" was very appreciated.
I really "role" played in Fallout 4, as myself, and every single minute of it felt great.
Product wise is an average 7.5/10 but it was a 9/10 experience for me.
I get the Fallout 76 jokes and comparison but Fallout 4 was not a bad game.
We'll see once Starfield comes out. Even then, I'm gonna be holding out hope for TESVI. Bethesda still has fantastic environmental artists and level designers. They just need to get better writers and hire a creative director that understands the concept of moderation. We don't need dozens of Oblivion Gates, infinitely spawning dragons, or settlements to manage across the entire map. They come up with a cool concept, get it working, and then get WAY too overzealous with its implementation.
Exploring Bethesda's worlds is still a joy but they need to spend their time more wisely. Fallout 4 had a lot going for it but instead of spending their time making dozens of settlements, they should have made a few major settlements and a handful of smaller settlements while filling the rest of the world with interesting side quests and NPCs. Most of those settlements should have been new areas to explore with interesting things to do in them. Even the places that should have had unique quests attached to them... didn't. Here's a fight pit! Can you fight in it? Nope. Here's a robot race track! Can you bet on the races? Nope. Just kill everyone, everywhere you go.
And then there's this obsession with telling a "compelling" story. People don't play Bethesda games to find their missing son or to become some legendary dragonborn. They want to role play as anything they want to be. Obsidian does a MUCH better job at setting up an open ended backstory for the player character. It allows for more freedom, which is what everyone wants. Bethesda says that they want to give the player freedom but then they always seem to limit that freedom right out of the gate with their hamfisted main quest.
Exploring Bethesda's worlds is still a joy but they need to spend their time more wisely. Fallout 4 had a lot going for it but instead of spending their time making dozens of settlements, they should have made a few major settlements and a handful of smaller settlements while filling the rest of the world with interesting side quests and NPCs. Most of those settlements should have been new areas to explore with interesting things to do in them. Even the places that should have had unique quests attached to them... didn't. Here's a fight pit! Can you fight in it? Nope. Here's a robot race track! Can you bet on the races? Nope. Just kill everyone, everywhere you go.
And then there's this obsession with telling a "compelling" story. People don't play Bethesda games to find their missing son or to become some legendary dragonborn. They want to role play as anything they want to be. Obsidian does a MUCH better job at setting up an open ended backstory for the player character. It allows for more freedom, which is what everyone wants. Bethesda says that they want to give the player freedom but then they always seem to limit that freedom right out of the gate with their hamfisted main quest.
The difference is that many, many different NPCs said the same dialog, and they repeated it whenever you were near. It made the game feel like some kind of robust animatronic show (the character models only furthered that sensation).
I mean... it isn't. We are both right, you know. Unless you want to live in a world where literally the only truths are based on your own perceptions, at which point I would say you are on the precipice of delusion.
I guess you could claim that truth, in regards to art criticism, is based on popular opinion. But that is formally a logical fallacy (the appeal to popularity fallacy). So, that doesn't really work.
But the writing in F4 isn't good. There's parts that shine through, like Nick Valentine. But for the most part it's just blatantly awful. Like, that first conversation with Sturges and Preston in Lexington, or any conversation with Mama Murphy. Strong as a character (who's character arc doesn't even have a conclusion). The Institute and all of the lore/motivations behind them. It's just bad.
Skyrim was decent despite its writing. There was so much handcrafted content in the game that you could sort of forgive its shortcomings. But the Commonwealth is a fourth of the size of Skyrim, and a third of that is water. Most of the quests are randomly generated dungeon clearing tasks. At least Skyrim had two main quest lines and four faction quest lines. Not to mention five unique cities ( out of like 8 total), tons of daedric quests, way more combat options, etc.
My issue with Fallout 4 isn't just that it fails at being a Fallout rpg, it also fails at being a bgs open world title. It manages to be a step back from New Vegas and Skyrim at the same time
It's bad when compared to its contemporaries. Skyrim beats it if you're just looking for a BGS style open world, New Vegas and now TOW beat it if you're looking for a first person roleplaying experience. Witcher 3 and even Assassins Creed beat it now when it comes to adventure games with light rpg mechanics. Not to mention it's buggier than pretty much any open world title on the market.
It's truly surprising how few practice this; you don't need to study critical theory to recognize subjectivity, it should be common sense. Everything we're discussing here is subjective, and when someone starts by saying oh this game is "objectively" a bad RPG, I immediately lose any interest in having a conversation with them.
Fair.
I just don't think you could ever defend Fallout 4 as an rpg just like I couldn't defend the Michael Bay Transformers movies as high art
And I wouldn't want to because I don't particularly like Fallout 4, but I try to avoid making hyperbolic statements (and I also fail to do that at times).
I don't particularly care for him Jim but I agree with the second part Skyrim was gotg last gen.
Also, is anyone going to tell him 2k doesn't own the IP?
It took me until 76 to see it (because of how much dna the two games share). But Fallout 4 isn't really that great of a game. It's an enjoyable game, but a hollow and poorly designed one.
The critical beat down 76 received made me realize how lucky BGS was that F4 released when it did. The biggest difference between the two games is the lack of npcs. In terms of quest design, combat, enemy ai, etc. they're very similar. They've just been surpassed in everything outside of world persistence.
It's true that Beth has spent all the goodwill I had for them so far. It's funny that I trust them more as a publisher than a developer nowadays
Pretty much. Fallout 4 is a mediocre game unmodded and actually pretty damn decent modded, but without those mods, it didn't do much for me.
I didn't say Fallout 4 was great. I have so many complaints about the title, but I still liked playing it and would still call it a good game (as did most critics).
You are way underselling how shitty an overall experience F76 has been. They're similar bc they are part of the Fallout franchise.
Yes but at the same time if you can't climb up ladders or have moving objects on top of moving objects (like crewmen on boats) then there's still too much Gamebryo underneath it all.
When I climbed my first ladder in Outer Worlds my first thought was literally, "Well we now have proof this ain't a Bethesda game."
Ladders, Bethesda's greatest nemesis since 2002.
I've put a ton of hours into both games across both PS4 and Xb1. Fallout 76 is buggier than Fallout 4 (which itself is very buggy) but until you encounter those bugs, they feel quite similar moment to moment. Outside of introducing some animation lag, the multiplayer in 76 is pretty inconsequential to the overall gameplay loop. Explore->kill->loot->craft->repeat. There are npcs in Fallout 4, but the stuff they tell you to do is usually just dungeon clearing like the quests in 76. The two games look the same, the gunplay is the same, the enemy AI is basically the same. The menus, the exploration, the overall "flow" and "feel" of the games are all the same. I'm looking forward to npcs in 76 because it'll give me more to do, not because it'll fundamentally change the game or make it much better.
Like, when I sit down for an extended play session of unmodded survival mode in Fallout 4 or play 76 I get the exact same feeling.
A comment that gets it right. Bethesda's been iterating on crap for years and it's long overdue that they get called out on it.
Whether that will change with a new animation system is not really knowable but I would hope so.
Elder Scrolls VI is still day one.
Actually.. I won't underestimate their ability to try to charge consumers 150 dollars for all of the content.
Actually.. I won't underestimate their ability to try to charge consumers 150 dollars for all of the content.
I looove doom 2016 and funny enough for me, DOOM Ethernal is a huge miss for me. From what I saw they turned it into a bleepy colorful arcade fest and I am not interested at all in it. All they had to do was to make more DOOM 2016.
I thought FO4 was incredibly rote, looked dated at release, and the world felt like an afterthought wrt exploration compared to the other 3d Fallouts. That said it still sold like crazy, Bethesda knows how to market their in house developed single player titles very well and unless they suddenly forget how to keep doing that they'll continue to be relevant. So no, very far from obsolete.
That said, they still need to really bring it next gen and give a massive reworking/facelift to the Creation Engine if they want to remotely compete with what the other third and first parties will be bringing to the table for open world titles. Witcher 3 and BOTW already stomps all over their typical formula for world building they've been doing since Oblivion. What I'd like to see is a return to Morrowind's philosophy of world building, exploration and quest lines need to feel more organic and less grindy. I know a certain amount of grind is unavoidable in these 100+ hr titles, but you can at least make the world more appealing.
I'm somewhat hopeful given Todd's cryptic line about waiting for hardware to catch up for the tech they want to implement for the future titles. He may have just been discussing the next Elder Scrolls not including Starfield can't recall if he was that specific. If I were to guess it's some next level procedural generation, fleshing out levels of detail in an open world game we haven't seen before. I'd be ecstatic to see a new cutting edge sp open world game from them again, this used to be the studio friends and I would upgrade our rigs for their new releases. Looks like CDPR has taken that mantle for the time being.
That said, they still need to really bring it next gen and give a massive reworking/facelift to the Creation Engine if they want to remotely compete with what the other third and first parties will be bringing to the table for open world titles. Witcher 3 and BOTW already stomps all over their typical formula for world building they've been doing since Oblivion. What I'd like to see is a return to Morrowind's philosophy of world building, exploration and quest lines need to feel more organic and less grindy. I know a certain amount of grind is unavoidable in these 100+ hr titles, but you can at least make the world more appealing.
I'm somewhat hopeful given Todd's cryptic line about waiting for hardware to catch up for the tech they want to implement for the future titles. He may have just been discussing the next Elder Scrolls not including Starfield can't recall if he was that specific. If I were to guess it's some next level procedural generation, fleshing out levels of detail in an open world game we haven't seen before. I'd be ecstatic to see a new cutting edge sp open world game from them again, this used to be the studio friends and I would upgrade our rigs for their new releases. Looks like CDPR has taken that mantle for the time being.
Considering how much smaller in scope it is, I have to say this isnt really true. I'm getting very similar issues to Bethesda releases like Skyrim and F4. Bad optimization, stuttering, and occasionally a companion walking half inside the ground.
I wouldnt give TOW any praise of having proven that these games dont need to be buggy. Because it's not a good example for that.
First time ive seen this opinion. DOOM Eternal just looks like a better more improved version of DOOM 2016 also DOOM 1/2 are colorful arcade fests so I dont know what you mean. Do you want Doom 3 again?
Great video but Jim is a few years late. All 3 BGS Fallout games have been mediocre and they've torpedo'd my interest in the Fallout brand into the ground. Their decisions with Fallout 4 has also made me disinterested in their future titles because they are straying from the RPG path.
Obsidian, Larian, and CDPR all make BGS' games obsolete for me.
Obsidian, Larian, and CDPR all make BGS' games obsolete for me.
I'm always conflicted on how I feel about Bethesda, on one hand, they just keep spiraling downwards into mediocrity and beyond, broken on launch, more and more dumbing down of RPG elements, bland stories and boring characters/dialogue, not really keeping up with the rest of the industry tech wise...
On the other though... I do play all of their games quite a lot, even if a big chunk of their games disappoint me I still find myself playing 100+ hours, even with 76, part of that is just that their IP's are great, I love the Elder Scrolls and Fallout lore, NV proved that maybe they would be better served in the hands of other devs...
Outer Worlds really is amazing though, literally everything I wanted out of New Vegas 2 (with a dash of mass effect).
How Starfield and TES VI turn out may be the breaking point, 76 really was an awful mess that nearly broke me.
On the other though... I do play all of their games quite a lot, even if a big chunk of their games disappoint me I still find myself playing 100+ hours, even with 76, part of that is just that their IP's are great, I love the Elder Scrolls and Fallout lore, NV proved that maybe they would be better served in the hands of other devs...
Outer Worlds really is amazing though, literally everything I wanted out of New Vegas 2 (with a dash of mass effect).
How Starfield and TES VI turn out may be the breaking point, 76 really was an awful mess that nearly broke me.
the worst part about the outer worlds is reactivating the bethesda don't make rpgs discourse
it was boring when new vegas was still new, it's tedious at best now
it was boring when new vegas was still new, it's tedious at best now
Well I do think he went a little overboard with this one, although he does also make some very valid points - which mostly illustrate why people love The Outer Worlds so much (me included).
It's also an interesting topic because of the quality debate you can see in here as well. Now I guess nobody could really argue that Fallout 76 was a hot mess, but Fallout 4 was released to commercial and critical acclaim.
But somehow it just seems to have aged badly (within a single console generation). Somehow a lot of people don't seem to look back at it fondly - me included. I finished it and then I kinda forgot about it... I'd say looking back it was an underwhelming experience. And I feel that plays into the bad rap Bethesda is getting these days. Because other than Fallout 76 what have they really messed up so badly?
It's also an interesting topic because of the quality debate you can see in here as well. Now I guess nobody could really argue that Fallout 76 was a hot mess, but Fallout 4 was released to commercial and critical acclaim.
But somehow it just seems to have aged badly (within a single console generation). Somehow a lot of people don't seem to look back at it fondly - me included. I finished it and then I kinda forgot about it... I'd say looking back it was an underwhelming experience. And I feel that plays into the bad rap Bethesda is getting these days. Because other than Fallout 76 what have they really messed up so badly?
Bethesda has made one bad game console game in decades (no comment on the mobile games), but the depths to which they've fallen with Fallout 76 has been sad to see.
They were my favorite developer, and now the onus is on them to repair their reputation with Starfield. I hope they can do it. I know Bethesda Softworks had to do something with the BattleCry team, but turning them into BGS-Austin and having them use the Creation Engine to make a multiplayer game was probably not a good idea. A venerable IP has been damaged as a result.
Meanwhile, it's great to see Obsidian succeeding with their take on the BGS-style RPG. It's a winning game formula. Hopefully their unannounced AAA RPG is of the same mold.
They were my favorite developer, and now the onus is on them to repair their reputation with Starfield. I hope they can do it. I know Bethesda Softworks had to do something with the BattleCry team, but turning them into BGS-Austin and having them use the Creation Engine to make a multiplayer game was probably not a good idea. A venerable IP has been damaged as a result.
Meanwhile, it's great to see Obsidian succeeding with their take on the BGS-style RPG. It's a winning game formula. Hopefully their unannounced AAA RPG is of the same mold.
And I don't get the same feel what so ever. F76 is a complete abysmal disappointment. Playing it was a chore and not rewarding. At no point in F4 did I have the lows that I experienced in F76.
I don't get this at all. How is the settlement system in F4 not one giant chore? It barely works and is poorly designed (why can't I pull/push objects?), contains no unique quests, only a select few unique npcs (that don't do anything unique), is filled with busywork radiant quests, discourages multiple characters, etc.
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But...Jim has a job. And looking at this, I'm really wondering what kind of job this fellow has lmao. Man, some people...