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HiLife

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
39,687
P5R is the best turn-based dungeon(palace?) crawling RPG. I'm not a fan of random encounters, it's part of the reason why I dislike walking in grass when playing Pokémon. As for your second point, you nailed everything I enjoy. A good dungeon needs a great OST, unique level design and an easy to navigate map. As well as unique enemies in said dungeon. I don't want navigating to be a metroidvania, in fact I'm a fan of more streamlined dungeons. The easier I can navigate the map, while picking and choosing who I want to engage with, the quicker I get to the boss and progress the story.

Also, please keep the puzzles to a minimum. I really don't care for them unless I'm specifically playing a puzzle game like The Witness.
 
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diablogg

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,269
Oh snaps, thanks for the shoutout :)

No problem, the game is great. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't salty you guys were working on a LoL game that looks exactly like this instead of the sequel. Hope it does well for you (it will probably do bonkers if it's simply Nightwar with a LoL skin.) As a general hater of MOBAs from a salty Warcraft 3 fan that's about the friendliest sentiments I can give you =p
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,969
South Carolina
I'm increasingly of the opinion that turn-based RPGs shouldn't have random battles or trash mobs at all -- that all battles in these games should be hand-placed and that there be a pre-determined finite number of them, each one unique.

Otherwise they become repetitive. This is fine in real-time games because the time investment for each individual fight is extremely little, but in turn-based games transitioning in and out of dozens of fights with identical trash mobs very quickly becomes tiring, no matter how easy they are. Auto-battle and speed-up are just admissions that your combat system isn't fun enough to sustain a high frequency of encounters.

Mind you I haven't played hardcore turn-based dungeon crawlers like Etrian Odyssey or MegaTen games outside some Persona games. I don't know how they all do it. Games like Persona 3 and 4 have way too many of the same encounters over and over again. Persona 5's non-random dungeons are better but battles themselves can still get repetitive.

Jeremy Parrish once spoke wisdom about how the tools of a Dungeon Crawler that is testing your decision making in delving deeper, making decisions when encountering new things, and the concept of making it TO the boss being part of the boss fight, etc...once the reason they're in there in the first place is gone, they're useless beyond mere pacing mechanism measuring out time before the only thing of value at the end (boss fight/story bits) and NO ONE wants that in a long dungeon.

Once we see this, evolutional traits over the decades make sense.

(I pivot off of that and say an easy dungeon crawler is a boring dungeon crawler.)
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,603
Golden Sun and Lufia 2, of course, but shout-out to Crosscode. Admittedly, they can occasionally feel like puzzle gauntlets with the occasional bit of combat thrown in, but I had a blast moving through them.

Interestingly, ALL of these games have a top-down 2-D approach, which allows for the player being able to trivially ascertain a room's layout, objectives, and goals. 3-D titles with more dynamic camera angles can make things more difficult in this regard, I think. Of course we still have games like Talos Principle, but would that sort of layout really work with enemy encounters? I'm unsure.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,064
Jeremy Parrish once spoke wisdom about how the tools of a Dungeon Crawler that is testing your decision making in delving deeper, making decisions when encountering new things, and the concept of making it TO the boss being part of the boss fight, etc...once the reason they're in there in the first place is gone, they're useless beyond mere pacing mechanism measuring out time before the only thing of value at the end (boss fight/story bits) and NO ONE wants that in a long dungeon.
I get the idea of making the whole dungeon gauntlet a complete challenge, but if anything that signifies even more that a dungeon should be designed as a cohesive whole, including its enemy encounters. Real-time dungeon crawlers and action RPGs like Diablo or a Souls game essentially do this, having groups of enemies specifically placed.

Random encounters and even random occurrences of enemies on the field that transition into turn-based battles feel less like hand-placed challenge and more like filler. And in turn-based games there are only a certain amount of possible unique groups of enemies, usually only a few per area, and once you've done them all you just end up repeating the same battles over and over. Even if you've figured out how to get through them with efficient use of resources you're still repeating the same battle plan over and over, and if that involves constantly transitioning in and out of a turn-based battle zone, that just gets grating after a while.

I don't think turn-based old-school dungeon crawlers do that though. Again, I've only briefly played a few, but I understand the ones with grid-based movement have dungeon exploration and combat in the same gameplay space, so there's no transition happening. In a sense that's just as seamless as in a real-time game. The same goes for SRPGs that have dungeon-like events -- the whole gameplay is turn-based and obstacles are specifically placed so I don't have that problem with repetitive battle transitions.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,969
South Carolina
I get the idea of making the whole dungeon gauntlet a complete challenge, but if anything that signifies even more that a dungeon should be designed as a cohesive whole, including its enemy encounters. Real-time dungeon crawlers and action RPGs like Diablo or a Souls game essentially do this, having groups of enemies specifically placed.

Random encounters and even random occurrences of enemies on the field that transition into turn-based battles feel less like hand-placed challenge and more like filler. And in turn-based games there are only a certain amount of possible unique groups of enemies, usually only a few per area, and once you've done them all you just end up repeating the same battles over and over. Even if you've figured out how to get through them with efficient use of resources you're still repeating the same battle plan over and over, and if that involves constantly transitioning in and out of a turn-based battle zone, that just gets grating after a while.

I don't think turn-based old-school dungeon crawlers do that though. Again, I've only briefly played a few, but I understand the ones with grid-based movement have dungeon exploration and combat in the same gameplay space, so there's no transition happening. In a sense that's just as seamless as in a real-time game. The same goes for SRPGs that have dungeon-like events -- the whole gameplay is turn-based and obstacles are specifically placed so I don't have that problem with repetitive battle transitions.

Once you see why they do this (especially EO's delicious mixing of the two), it'll make sense both ways (or again, like EO, BOTH ways).
 

Evilisk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,360
Note: since I don't play much of WRPG's, I'm gonna be exclusively talking about Japanese RPG's and DRPG's

Are you asking for good dungeons in RPGs? Or good DRPGs? Because both are different questions. In general, I've found DRPG's to have such thoughtful dungeon design that the exploration feels as important as the random encounters. DRPG's also feel more focused on resource management, since you're always considering whether you have the resources to get out of a dungeon too. Not to say JRPG's don't have resource management, some do. But most JRPG's haven't made me thinking about it to the level of DRPG's.


On the specific questions:

Random encounters: I can deal with any encounter system... so long as the battles are done quickly. I'm not saying the game should be a breeze (I absolutely expect boss battles to present a challenge) but battles shouldn't be me spending 10 seconds deciding what to do and then me waiting 50 seconds waiting for it to play out on screen. Make the battle animations quick and snappy. This really makes a difference. Even games with good battle systems get dragged down by long attack animations.

Now, while I just said I'm okay with any encounter system. I think more games just need to straight up copy the encounter system from Labyrinth of Touhou 2. LoT2's encounter system is genius. It gives you a visible encounter rate bar that goes from 0 to 100%. Every step makes it randomly go up by a small value and as you might expect, the more steps you take = the higher chance of you running into a fight. This system is so good because you're never in fear of taking 3 or 4 steps before immediately running into another battle. And if you ever need to grind, there's a solution for that too: there's a button that lets you instantly set the bar to 200%.

04.png

(You can see the encounter rate bar on the top right, under the mini-map)

It's a good random encounter system that's, honestly, kind of wasted in LoT2 since the game is a DRPG with maze like floor layouts. Now in a regular JRPG, where dungeons are rather streamlined, it'd work way better since you'd have the dynamic of "sticking to the main path and having less enemies to fight" vs "going for optional goodies that will almost definitely make me fight more enemies"

Seriously, more games need to steal this mechanic. It's a much better way of doing random encounters than most JRPG's.


Extra Stuff: I don't tend to care about optional stuff, but if you're going to make me farm materials, there should be some multiplier/bonus that help makes grinding less annoying. To bring up Labyrinth of Touhou 2 again, that game has both: systems that reward you for consecutive fights (e.g. you get a multiplier the more fights you complete in a dungeon; it also has a challenge system letting you get rare loot with a 100% drop rate if you do a boss at a specific challenge level) and characters that help with the tedium of grinding (e.g. some characters have passives that increase rewards after battle, other characters have skills that work like "if you kill this enemy with this skill, you multiply the exp/gold/drop rate")


Good Dungeons: I'm gonna be honest, I don't like most dungeons in RPG's. I'm struggling to think of any dungeons I actually like; most I've run into are boring or straight up bad. I dunno if OP is doing research because they're making a game but if they are: please add maps that actually give you information. I recently played two RPGs with awful in-game maps (one was Okage: Shadow King which, doesn't explain landmarks, and is functionally useless for any dungeons with maze-like layouts) and having maps that don't work is honestly worse than no maps at all. Make sure your maps are actually useful.


The best comparison I can come up with is strategy RPGs where you essentially never fight the same battle twice. I just don't know how those kinds of games work with dungeons.

The Arc the Lad series is an SRPG with dungeons. In Arc 1 there is only 1 dungeon and enemies respawn immediately after leaving a floor. Yes, that means to get out, you have to fight your way through all the floors you've cleared. The game also does the usual SRPG thing of "battles are replayable for grinding reasons" but there's technically only 1 proper dungeon. Arc 2, which is a proper JRPG just with an SRPG combat system, has fixed encounters in dungeons. These also always respawn (unless it's a story important dungeon that disappears once it's completed). I have never played Arc 3, but Arc 4, which is a 3D SRPG, just straight up has random encounters
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,064
I have no idea how EO does it or what systems it combines. I played a little bit of Grimrock which is a western DRPG with grid-based dungeons. Movement and combat are both turn-based and the enemies are just right there in the dungeons instead of being in separate encounter zones.
 

decoyplatypus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,614
Brooklyn
- What do you think about random battles in dungeons, do they interfere with the flow of the game or do you like them? And, on a general level, do you prefer to see the enemies roaming around the map and decide whether to fight or dodge them or do you prefer them to appear suddenly?

- Beyond combat, what additional value do you think a dungeon should provide: material gathering, development of side quests and NPC plots, getting companions/creatures only available in those dungeons?

- What should a good turn-based combat RPG dungeon have?

I think this felipepepe essay from last year does a good job of framing the design principles discussion. Specific tools available to designers will vary a lot depending on the game's perspective, movement, rules, etc. Even "turn-based" doesn't actually give us all that much information. For an EO-style megadungeon that players will be revisiting, good design might mean carefully-placed sub-objectives (so the player feels he/she has accomplished something before returning to town) or refreshing content in previously-explored regions. For a classic FF-style game, good design might focus more on art direction and set pieces -- you're only coming through once, after all (Ultimecia's Castle's combination of dramatic art and unique--initially shocking--mechanics tends to stick in players' memory).

The same principle applies to your questions. What do I think of random battles? Well, it depends on the game. I think random encounters work quite well in many traditional jRPGs (e.g., DQ, SMT) where uncertainty about when you'll hit an encounter and what enemies you'll face shapes the player's decisions around exploration and even what resources to use in combat. But they're not going to be well-suited to a game that wants to have persistent enemies or a tactical element where you can set traps for enemies or try to avoid them.