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Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,812
England
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Multiplayer - definitely For Honor. Both mechanically (feinting, parrying, multi-target defence system) and visually (motion matching was stunning, and those execution animations...). I also love that they built cheese options into the game, like ledges, pitfalls, spike traps, and the ability to gang up on other players, and the playerbase has this tacit honor code surrounding their use of those options.

Single player - my vote goes to Sekiro.
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,274
Best combat doesn't necessarily mean deep or complex for me. I find something like classic Mega Man's combat to be incredibly satisfying and that's basically just point and shoot.

That said, I also loved Grandia's combat system.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,134
My Vote for a less mentioned one is

Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy



Nioh still reigns supreme.
Honestly I think my vote might be here. I didn't get drawn into the game like I do souls games for a variety of reason, and overall I'd say the game is just O.K. But the combat is incredible.

That being said the weight and simplicity, yet difficult mastery of Souls combat is still something I absolutely love.
 

Chromie

Member
Dec 4, 2017
5,236
Washington
Divinity Original Sin 2. Less AP than the first game means I can do everything I want. I like the magic/physical armor system. Elements that react to spell affects and creating new effects ex: cast ice on the ground to make a slippery path + fireball to melt it = vapor in the air then use an electric ability to make a thunder cloud to prevent people walking directly towards you and if they go through it, lowers their AP as well as defensive capability. What a fantastic game.


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Baldur's Gate 2. I'm more of a 5e person but playing this as kid. Damn was it amazing. Challenging, colorful and spells looked incredible. I'll always prefer true turn based combat but Baldur's Gate's combat in general is just so much fun.

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Vagrant Story basically had Fallout's VATS but this being a JRPG, I'm sure Era would like it. Great game, attacking certain parts had different effects also to this day has the BEST DAMN CRAFTING SYSTEM ever.

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Firmament1

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,287
God of War (PS4) combat is more focused and better than the quite repetitive combat of GoW3.
Gotta disagree here. God of War PS4 is riddled with problems, from the fact that basically all your cool tricks work only on standard Draugr (In 3, you can fucking launch Minotaurs and Gorgons, and can parry basically any monster too), the camera and the indicators, the RPG elements, etc.
 

GeekyDad

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,689
USA
Hard to pick a best, as we've been blessed with a lot great games over the years, but what comes immediately to mind for me is the SMT series in general. I just enjoy how the games tend to be tough as nails unless you take advantage of enemy weaknesses. The reward feeling in those games is just great. I think they did particularly well and it was particularly fun in SMTIV. Played the hell out of that game (five playthroughs in a row!)
 

Sky87

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,862
Given by how many times other games have copied it, the Batman games combat system. It just works, looks great and is really fluent.

Don't understand why people list the Souls games, Sekiro has them beat easily and even The Surge had better combat.
 

Nephilim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,274
Devil May Cry 5
Monster Hunter World
Doom 2016
God of War 2018
Dark Souls 3
Astral Chain
Bayonetta 1+2
God of War 3
The Witcher 3 (i really like it)
Sekiro
Assassins Creed Origins
Xenoblade Chronicles X

and many others.
My personal pick is God of War 2018.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,844
Gotta disagree here. God of War PS4 is riddled with problems, from the fact that basically all your cool tricks work only on standard Draugr (In 3, you can fucking launch Minotaurs and Gorgons, and can parry basically any monster too), the camera and the indicators, the RPG elements, etc.
Maybe there are problems. But I loved almost every combats in God of War (except the last QTE heavy boss), even the easiest ones, while I found most combats in old God of War games really boring and repetitive, and I was glad to see the end of those games (because of the combats, I actually preferred the exploration in the old GoW).

In GoW 4 you have so many tools that you can chose from so you can vary a lot the encounters (but yeah, you need to try the new tools so it's more RPG than the previous games indeed). I loved the camera near Kratos and the indicators were a great way to see the incoming threats (maybe not perfect but I don't see a better way). And I platinumed the game so there was quite a lot of grinding involved, but those were never boring, for me at least. It really reminded me Bloodborne combat.

Let's just agree to disagree here ;-)
 

Aske

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,572
Canadia
It's undoubtedly DMC 5, but I need to talk about Dark Sector. No other game feels like it: the sensation and feedback you get from the glaive is utterly unique. Remember active reload? Dark Sector has this, but the window is during a charged throw. Get it right, you fire off a power throw for quad damage, and it feels fantastic. I haven't enjoyed a game with similarly punchy sound design, either. Best sounding guns to grace my speakers.

The game had a terrible colour palette, and people didn't love the level design, but it was unfairly dismissed because it didn't look anywhere near as good as Gears of War, and they were very similar games. But the stuff Dark Sector does well, it does magnificently, and what it does well is its core combat mechanics. Most underrated game of last gen, and one of the most underrated ever, in my opinion. I would kill for a current gen re-release.
 
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Firmament1

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,287
Maybe there are problems. But I loved almost every combats in God of War (except the last QTE heavy boss), even the easiest ones, while I found most combats in old God of War games really boring and repetitive, and I was glad to see the end of those games (because of the combats, I actually preferred the exploration in the old GoW).

In GoW 4 you have so many tools that you can chose from so you can vary a lot the encounters (but yeah, you need to try the new tools so it's more RPG than the previous games indeed). I loved the camera near Kratos and the indicators were a great way to see the incoming threats (maybe not perfect but I don't see a better way). And I platinumed the game so there was quite a lot of grinding involved, but those were never boring, for me at least. It really reminded me Bloodborne combat.

Let's just agree to disagree here ;-)
It's okay that you think this, but here are my thoughts.

> Lots of tools to vary the encounters
The problem is that there aren't many enemies to use these tools on, and the game also further restricts the use of those tools. You can onlyuse launchers/trippers/freeze and kick on the standard Draugr, as opposed to, as I said, in God of War 3 where you could parry anything, and could launch minotaurs and gorgons.

> Camera near Kratos and Indicators
I honestly can't think of any good reason to put it there. It cuts off your field of view, and restricts the directions you can attack in. Yeah, there are indicators, but wouldn't the better idea be just to pull the camera back in combat so I could see around myself, and thus actually have to read enemy animations?
 

Duffking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,695
Care to elaborate? I would agree that NGB is the better game overall, but I think I prefer the combat in 2 to pretty much any game ever made.

Cool thread by the way, there are so many good combat systems in games.

It's kind of a sarcastic comment just because NG2 was a letdown for me. But in a nutshell, NGB becomes a better game as you turn up the difficulty, and NG2 becomes a worse one. NGB works in a way that actively prevents and punishes you from using cheese tactics like flying swallow spam and makes you utilise a wide range of moves and weapons (on landing UT spam aside).

NG2's design kind of forces you to do the opposite, it's extremely limiting in what's actually worth using because of the Obliteration Technique system. On harder difficulties you need to be killing things as quickly as possible because NG2 is a very, very spammy game which is full to the brim of cheap shots (I can go on all day about how much I hate NG2's encounter design, but for now I'll leave it at exploding projectiles fired from 100m off screen and attacks which count as having hit you from frame 1 of their animation effectively making them undodgeable).

Because the game wants you to use the OTs a lot, enemies have really high health. It's generally not viable to be fighting enemies without focusing on dismembering then finishing. Therefore the way to do manage the crowds in MN is to abuse moves and techniques which 1) have an enourmous number of invincibility frames so you can circumnavigate the 12 explosive shurikens thrown at you per second, and 2) have an extremely high chance of dismembering enemies, putting them into a state where they can be instantly OT'd.

NG2 has this awesome selection of weaponry but then designs itself into a corner where it's not really viable on higher difficulties to use the vast majority of it. Even among the stuff that is useful, only a handful of moves can really be used because everything else just leaves you too open to the extraordinary amount of projectile spam and cheap shot attacks. I beat MN on NG2 using basically only the Flying Swallow -> Izuna Drop on the Talons, the ->YYYY combo on the Talons because it always dismembered and auto triggered an OT, and sometimes Scythe air attack spam. It was those moves, over and over for the whole game combined with the wind run jump since it had a lot of iframes. And it felt like I had to play it that way. In NGB, every weapon is viable in basically every fight.

Perhaps it's more a design issue but NG2's combat is just an enourmous step back for me. There's a lot of potential there with weapons and combos, but it just doesn't come together at all, and I think the core of the issue is in no small part the introduction of OTs. If you chuck 10 enemies at me at once, all spamming explosive projectiles and there's 3 guys in the background firing explosive arrows at me and they all have high health pools which can be circumvented by using the same 2-3 combos over and over, then I know what my strategy's gonna be.
 

Geobros

Member
Dec 31, 2018
670
I liked Final Fantsy X-2 and Final Fantasy XII system. As for Xenoblade Chronicles 2, I think it is the best RPG system of all time!!
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,434
It's kind of a sarcastic comment just because NG2 was a letdown for me. But in a nutshell, NGB becomes a better game as you turn up the difficulty, and NG2 becomes a worse one. NGB works in a way that actively prevents and punishes you from using cheese tactics like flying swallow spam and makes you utilise a wide range of moves and weapons (on landing UT spam aside).

NG2's design kind of forces you to do the opposite, it's extremely limiting in what's actually worth using because of the Obliteration Technique system. On harder difficulties you need to be killing things as quickly as possible because NG2 is a very, very spammy game which is full to the brim of cheap shots (I can go on all day about how much I hate NG2's encounter design, but for now I'll leave it at exploding projectiles fired from 100m off screen and attacks which count as having hit you from frame 1 of their animation effectively making them undodgeable).

Because the game wants you to use the OTs a lot, enemies have really high health. It's generally not viable to be fighting enemies without focusing on dismembering then finishing. Therefore the way to do manage the crowds in MN is to abuse moves and techniques which 1) have an enourmous number of invincibility frames so you can circumnavigate the 12 explosive shurikens thrown at you per second, and 2) have an extremely high chance of dismembering enemies, putting them into a state where they can be instantly OT'd.

NG2 has this awesome selection of weaponry but then designs itself into a corner where it's not really viable on higher difficulties to use the vast majority of it. Even among the stuff that is useful, only a handful of moves can really be used because everything else just leaves you too open to the extraordinary amount of projectile spam and cheap shot attacks. I beat MN on NG2 using basically only then Flying Swallow -> Izuna Drop on the Talons, the ->YYYY combo on the Talons because it always dismembered and auto triggered an OT, and sometimes Scythe air attack spam. It was those moves, over and over for the whole game combined with the wind run jump since it had a lot of iframes. And it felt like I had to play it that way. In NGB, every weapon is viable in basically every fight.

Perhaps it's more a design issue but NG2's combat is just an enourmous step back for me. There's a lot of potential there with weapons and combos, but it just doesn't come together at all, and I think the core of the issue is in no small part the introduction of OTs. If you chuck 10 enemies at me at once, all spamming explosive projectiles and there's 3 guys in the background firing explosive arrows at me and they all have high health pools which can be circumvented by using the same 2-3 combos over and over, then I know what my strategy's gonna be.

Fair enough. I adore the combat system and weapons, but I agree the encounter design is a step back.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
All answers here so far are great but I'd like to at least give Batman Arkham's Freeflow combat system a honorable mention.

The way it made Batman move from one enemy to another was absolutely impressive and seamless.
My answer as a designer, and definitely captures why so many games were inspired by it.

It's extremely accessible and doesn't have nearly the same skill ceiling as other games mentioned, but absolutely succeeds at making everyone who plays that game feel like a badass, which most of the other games fail to do unless the player gets past a substantial skill floor.
 

Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,511
Original Doom 2: Great Level Design allied to different types of enemies + different weapons creates some really rewarding battle sequences and makes tactical decisions decisive for the player's survival.

Dark Souls series + Bloodborne: Another examples of what a simple combat design combined with a strong level design can do.

Turn-Based:

FFXIII: One of my favorites battle systems of any RPG. Paradigm Shift is a really well thought system and knowing how to use it well rewards a lot the player, especially for the late-game fights.

Chrono Cross: Loved the elemental system and how you can choose between different types of physical attacks.
 

Elyian

Member
Feb 7, 2018
2,424
Ouf, this is a doozy for sure. For action titles, it's a toss up between Nioh, Ninja Gaiden, Sekiro, and Devil May Cry(maybe even Dragon's Dogma and Kingdom Hearts 2 Final Mix). Then there are the fighters like Smash Ultimate, Guilty Gear, Blazblue, and Under Night Inbirth. I'd also like to make a shout out to Call of Duty and Titanfall(I fuggin love the advanced movement in these games).

I don't know, there really is just too much for me to choose from to give a definitive answer, but those are probably my picks of quality contenders.
 
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Firmament1

Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,287
It's kind of a sarcastic comment just because NG2 was a letdown for me. But in a nutshell, NGB becomes a better game as you turn up the difficulty, and NG2 becomes a worse one. NGB works in a way that actively prevents and punishes you from using cheese tactics like flying swallow spam and makes you utilise a wide range of moves and weapons (on landing UT spam aside).

NG2's design kind of forces you to do the opposite, it's extremely limiting in what's actually worth using because of the Obliteration Technique system. On harder difficulties you need to be killing things as quickly as possible because NG2 is a very, very spammy game which is full to the brim of cheap shots (I can go on all day about how much I hate NG2's encounter design, but for now I'll leave it at exploding projectiles fired from 100m off screen and attacks which count as having hit you from frame 1 of their animation effectively making them undodgeable).

Because the game wants you to use the OTs a lot, enemies have really high health. It's generally not viable to be fighting enemies without focusing on dismembering then finishing. Therefore the way to do manage the crowds in MN is to abuse moves and techniques which 1) have an enourmous number of invincibility frames so you can circumnavigate the 12 explosive shurikens thrown at you per second, and 2) have an extremely high chance of dismembering enemies, putting them into a state where they can be instantly OT'd.

NG2 has this awesome selection of weaponry but then designs itself into a corner where it's not really viable on higher difficulties to use the vast majority of it. Even among the stuff that is useful, only a handful of moves can really be used because everything else just leaves you too open to the extraordinary amount of projectile spam and cheap shot attacks. I beat MN on NG2 using basically only the Flying Swallow -> Izuna Drop on the Talons, the ->YYYY combo on the Talons because it always dismembered and auto triggered an OT, and sometimes Scythe air attack spam. It was those moves, over and over for the whole game combined with the wind run jump since it had a lot of iframes. And it felt like I had to play it that way. In NGB, every weapon is viable in basically every fight.

Perhaps it's more a design issue but NG2's combat is just an enourmous step back for me. There's a lot of potential there with weapons and combos, but it just doesn't come together at all, and I think the core of the issue is in no small part the introduction of OTs. If you chuck 10 enemies at me at once, all spamming explosive projectiles and there's 3 guys in the background firing explosive arrows at me and they all have high health pools which can be circumvented by using the same 2-3 combos over and over, then I know what my strategy's gonna be.
Curious, what were your thoughts on Razor's Edge? Since I'm on PS3, Master Ninja and above is completely unplayable, due to the massive input lag and slowdown. I hear playing it on the One X fixes those problems.
 

Matzpxl

Member
Jun 4, 2019
1,494
Brasília, Brazil
For melee/close quarters combat: Sekiro, GoW 2018, Metal Gear Rising and The Witcher 3 (yes).

FPS/TPS/gunplay: Destiny, MGSV, DOOM (both classics and 2016 reboot).
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,558
For turn based: Divinity Original Sin 2 easy. No game allows for even close to as much creativity or complexity the system here has built in. It, far, *far* more than any other turn based game I've played, requires players to think about natural cause and effect and push those systems to the limit, and what a far limit that is. That Larian made this off the back of just setting stuff into place and seeing where the chips fall makes it even more impressive.

Action RPG: Valkyrie Profile 2. I'm surprised no one else said this [that I saw]. Feels like a fighting game in a lot of ways, and the "stop/move" mechanic, combined with the dodge, the occasional arena mixup, and the "target enemy leader" stuff all work together perfectly, and it doesn't feel like I'm playing a watered down version of a non-RPG action game.

Melee Action Game: Honestly, DMC3 (with style switch). While DMC5 has more characters, with weapons which have more moves on them, the weapons and styles in 3 all feel more unique (nothing like Nevan at all, for instance) and like they have more depth to each individual move or tier (ie, something like Trickster lvl 3)...albeit with fewer constituent parts. As I was playing through 5 I was constantly wishing I could do some moves from 3 - like where's my Free Ride? No wallrunning? Shame.

Shooting Action Game: Controversial pick, but BF4. Now, no, the specific weapon handling is worse than something like any of the CoDs, it's less fluid than either of the Titanfalls, and it lacks the momentum loops of either Doom 2016 or any of the Halos. Yet, as a system, which is to say, a combat group of all the constituent parts to be used on enemies, this is untouchable thanks to the vehicles and customization. It's organic to an incredible degree, enough to have its own brand of Moments, and invokes a sense of being on a true combined arms warzone unlike anything else.
Honorable mention: Bujingai.
Wow, and I thought I was the only one who ever played Bujingai.
 
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Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,585
Ninja Gaiden, DMCV, FFX-2, Bravely Default, and Bloodborne are the first games to come to mind.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,404
As much as I love action games, fighting games takes this free. Even in something like DMC5 where you're given more tools most fighting games character has, the interactions you could have with them are way simpler, where as in a fighting game, every opponent you face is built with all the tools and mechanics in mind.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,306
First ones that popped in my mind were Divinity: OS2 or XCOM 2.

I'd also throw the recent Hitman 1 & 2 titles in there for the sheer adaptability and possibility on offer.
 

Bugalugs214

Banned
Nov 26, 2017
1,686
Halo for fps, simple yet hard to master.
Destiny/2 second cos it just feels so good.

Gears of war for Third person shooters.

Dark souls/ Bloodborne for third person action games.