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mindsale

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,911
I'm playing Ghost of Tsushima and I was really adoring it but by the time I had unlocked the second act I was completely bored of its combat mechanics and the game became a slog. I had very little need for resources and it became a mad dash from Main quest mission to Main quest mission.

Which open world games meter out your abilities throughout or otherwise stay fresh until the end? How?

Which open world games overstay their welcome and become stale before the campaign is done? Why?
 

Cloud-Strife

Alt-Account
Banned
Sep 27, 2019
3,140
Pacing on open world games.. even some more linear games can give you the option to just dash through the Main Story and ignore the side activities/collectibles.

This thread is a weird take.
 

Pancracio17

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,779
Honestly, to me, bad pacing is just an issue with open world games, as the player decides the pacing on their own
Sorta, but not completely. A game like MGSV is slow and disjointed no matter how you play it, while in BotW I was constantly engaged with the world. There is some element of open world design in there.
 

Kurt Russell

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,504
After beating Death Stranding this week, I'd say that's one of the best examples of great pacing. It kept adding things in a good way, and even though it was a 60 hours game for me, I didn't feel like it overstayed its welcome.
 

Deleted member 5593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,635
If we're talking straight gameplay...

Worst: Red Dead Redemption 2

Best for me was Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
 

Bessy67

Member
Oct 29, 2017
11,583
Honestly, to me, bad pacing is just an issue with open world games, as the player decides the pacing on their own
Yeah, most open world games you can go as fast or slow as you want through the story. Games like AC Odyssey and the Witcher 3 can seem slow paced but I feel that's mostly due to the player getting sidetracked with the (over)abundance of side content.
 
OP
OP
mindsale

mindsale

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,911
Most open world games let you choose your own pacing, so this is kinda hard to tell.

Which games overstayed their welcome? Which did you rush through because the content had ceased to be engaging? Which did you luxuriate in and complete all the side content as or before you completed story objectives? Which did you simply abandon?
 

Deleted member 69573

User requested account closure
Banned
May 17, 2020
1,320
Melbourne, Australia
Best is Skyrim and Breath of the Wild, in that the pace is almost entirely up to the player with excellent variety in Skyrims case, and excellent micro moments in Breath of the Wilds.

Worst is honestly everything else. I have not enjoyed any other open world game outside of those 2.

Edit: Yonder: The Cloud Catcher Chronicles is also up there for me. It's a to the point open world game that has a handful of mechanics solely for enhancing the exploration of the world.
 

Low3rL3vel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
87
State of Decay 2 for the most part is the same start to finish. Like Greywaren said, you control the pace really.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,852
After beating Death Stranding this week, I'd say that's one of the best examples of great pacing. It kept adding things in a good way, and even though it was a 60 hours game for me, I didn't feel like it overstayed its welcome.

Hard disagree, DS was particularly bad at this.
 

Doggg

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 17, 2017
14,455
It's true that you choose what to do in open world games. I'd say that some are better than others at giving you other things to do when you get tired of doing something, which is one thing BOTW is good at.
 

Chromie

Member
Dec 4, 2017
5,243
Washington
Dark Souls was really great about it I feel. I didn't feel REALLY strong until only a few bosses were left and even then, the DLC really challenged me. I haven't started the other two so I don't if the pacing/challenge is the same.

Does it count as open? You're given a lot of freedom to explore.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
Almost all of them are bad, I have given up on them. So many meanglingless sidequests and busy work.
I remember playing about 1/3 of the way through Witcher 3 on PC back in 2015 and just losing interest and giving up. The bad battle mechanics didn't help.

Skyrim and BOTW just feels right, the wonder of exploring new places and interactions with the world was perfect. I think being leaders in the genre has that effect, too many other open world games are just ticking checkboxes.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Best:

GTA San Andreas. The whole game you get new stuff all the time. New cities with their own county sides, missions are really varied, new vehicles that are unique, arcs feel really different and fresh. It was engaging from start to finish.

I really like Ghost of Tsushima as well. I loved exploring and being rewarded all the time with new abilities, outfits and new missions. The game's side activities are really chill at times so you can change things up depending on your mood. Want to go around killing people? The camps and side missions are there to be done. Want to explore, pet foxes or write poems? Do that. And of course, you can focus on the story missions and get by without issue.

Agree with people saying Death Stranding. It was really fun and enjoyable to get new equipments to help make things easier (especially because the more you get close to the beach, the harder the enviorments and enemies become. The new enviorments all the way through also made things fresh.
 

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
13,707
a Socialist Utopia
Most of them are fine. I can do as much or as little as I like and play at my own pace. I'm currently into Act III of Ghost of Tsushima and I'm still loving every moment of this magnificent game.

The only one I ever quit was AC: Odyssey, I ain't got time for that bloated mess + level gating.
 

Ubik

Member
Nov 13, 2018
2,492
Canada
Pacing isn't really a thing for open world games. They are un-paced by definition almost. There are just open world games that are fun to fuck around in and have good missions and open world games that aren't fun to fuck around in and don't have good missions.

Maybe you can make a case for games with level gates having bad pacing, but I would call that more of a bad design choice you don't like rather than "pacing".

"Pacing" is also just a smarter way of saying "some of it I liked and some of it I didn't like" without actually calling out what you didn't like and putting forth effort in your criticism. It's like the equivalent of saying a movie should have cut out 15 minutes without further elaborating what you would cut out and why. One of my biggest pet peeves in fan criticism.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,981
After beating Death Stranding this week, I'd say that's one of the best examples of great pacing. It kept adding things in a good way, and even though it was a 60 hours game for me, I didn't feel like it overstayed its welcome.
For sure. Where open world games usually fail is when they're trying to make the same loop last 50+ hours. In Death Stranding you're basically playing a different game at hour 1, 15, 30 and 45.
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
17,279
Midgar, With Love
I think I'll go crazy with this and list a bunch of open world games that I've played, worst to best, strictly in terms of pacing. (Meaning, the list may not correlate with how I'd rank the games overall.) Now, when I think "open world pacing," I get the same idea that a few of you have already cited. Pacing is going to be an issue in the genre regardless, but how engaged do I feel on a moment-to-moment basis? I can at times consider lonely wanderings as totally engaging -- provided the atmosphere is great -- because I'm into that kind of thing. But more broadly speaking, this list has a lot to do with content variety, emotional beats, and main storyline compulsion.

It's likely that not every game I list will agree with everyone's standards of what constitutes an open world game. Double whoops.



15.) The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall
There was never a single moment in which I felt engaged in exploration.

14.) Assassin's Creed II
Cool representations of a nifty historical period. Felt like a chore to me, anyway.

13.) The Legend of Zelda
It's got some neat tricks to it and I'm a sucker for the series. But it hasn't aged well enough that I'd care to go back.

12.) Digimon World: Next Order
I like the combat and it's fun wandering around with Digimon partners, but the environments are aesthetically subpar.

11.) The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
It's Elder Scrolls post-Daggerfall, so fun and unexpected things happen in a vast world. Only, they're often rather same-y and don't happen often enough for my liking.

10.) Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag
Sailing the open seas is a gem. An absolute gem. I'd do it forever in a game of global exploration if I could. But once I made landfall, I never cared nearly as much about anything.

09.) Final Fantasy XV
The story suffered hard for it, but I quite like driving around the Lucian continent. Running around on chocobos rarely gets old, and the best part is all those optional dungeons that make me feel like I'm playing a gorgeous rendition of the very first Final Fantasy. Too bad the rest of the game isn't so well-crafted to say the least.

08.) Fallout 4
Another case where the story just fails to take off, although at least in Final Fantasy XV's case there are still a few moments where I could feel a tear coming on and a handful of characters worth giving a damn about. Yet Fallout 4 outranks FFXV on this kind of list because Bethesda pulled a Bethesda; the world is a treat to traipse across. Unfortunately, most of the quests don't earn their keep by comparison.

07.) Dragon Age: Inquisition
Yes, many of the zones (which arguably disqualify the game from "open world" status, I know) needed a lot more engaging content. But I think the issue can be overstated at times. There are a few zones that successfully rope me in with clever quests galore. Crestwood is a good example. But even in those places where it's fetch after fetch after nothing whatsoever, the Dragon Age team made a beautiful, beautiful game with Frostbite, so all is forgiven. Except for the Forbidden Oasis. Fuck the Forbidden Oasis.

06.) Final Fantasy XII
You'd be forgiven for wondering why I'd rank XII so high (again, if it even qualifies) when almost everything revolves around battling. It's true, there isn't a lot of variety in that regard. Not even relative to many prior Final Fantasies (and even XV). Like Dragon Age: Inquisition, though, I have a lovely time wandering around anyway. FFXII, for those of whom it clicks with, can be a charming continental tour with excellent music and sometimes enough storyline momentum to carry it. It'd rank higher if that momentum didn't fall apart at times, especially for a vast chunk of the second act.

05.) Fallout 3
Some would scoff at me for this, but I prefer Inon Zur's moody, post-apocalyptic tunes to the staple Americana jingles everyone always seems to have blasting through their Pip-Boy. I'll turn those on every now and then, but wandering across the ruins of a world gone by, in the middle of the night both in-game and outside of it, isn't complete without the right minimalist sounds to complement all that moodiness. That's why I love best about Fallout 3, but it has enough engaging quests and dialogue romps scattered throughout that the pacing comes out looking clean.

04.) The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
That's going to be a recurring note for most of the remainder of this list -- clean pacing. Morrowind features smarter writing than Fallout 3, too, and while I'm not quite as enchanted with the alien game world as some, I still quite appreciate it. There are some bizarre beauties to be seen; sunsets over purple dunes; the moon rising over giant mushroom things. This is a game that has to be experienced firsthand to be understood.

03.) Fallout: New Vegas
Ever-cleverer writing holds New Vegas up so high, creating a terrific sense of pacing out of a world which just doesn't interest me as much as several others here in terms of active exploration. In other sorts of lists, New Vegas would place lower. If I were simply ranking open worlds from an aesthetic perspective, hot damn, this wouldn't be it. But there's no dearth of things to do -- damn near ever -- as you encounter all kinds of memorable characters seemingly at every turn.

02.) The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Overall, Skyrim's writing isn't as great as a fair few of these other games. There are blatantly missed opportunities to make things feel more urgent, and to make me care more about the extended cast. I'd still take the writing here over Oblivion's, mind you, but Morrowind's is on another level. So what gets Skyrim so far? Hundreds of hours in, and I still can't get enough of its titular realm. There's a majesty about it, and a sense of bitter loss and primal courage, that still shines nine years in and will continue to shine for many years to come. And though there are far too many instances of dead people in caves and bandit ambushes you saw coming from kilometers away, there are also enough heartfelt questlines (especially in the DLCs!) to mostly make up for that problem. Bethesda knocked it out of the park with this game.

01.) The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
What can I say that hasn't been said? I could link you my LTTP for it, but it's already been read plenty, and there are folks who have penned better tributes besides. All I can tell you is that I can understand why Breath of the Wild doesn't work for some, but I am part of the majority here who thinks it's more than justified as a critical darling and sales evergreen. "But you hardly even do anything," some will argue. Maybe. But I was stunned by how many towns there were strewn throughout, and each town's population drew me in, made me care, and gave me a sense of heroism that cannot be rivaled. What matters more is everything in-between those towns; Hyrule is the leading character in Breath of the Wild, and it's a Hyrule so vast and yet so perfectly handcrafted that I "worry" we'll never see anything quite like it again. I don't need hundreds of intricate dialogue-centric quests in every game I play; I want that on the regular from certain other developers, because it's their bread and butter, but for Zelda I want to be set free and ride a horse across a mystical land filled with charm. I got so much more than that here.
 

hydruxo

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,432
Huh. I don't agree about Ghost of Tsushima's combat being a slog or getting stale at all. They do a great job of adding new stances, techniques, and tools at a nice pace throughout the entire game. I also thought the mission pacing was excellent too. Nearly all of the tales are like 5-15 min each and divvied up into individual ones so you don't end up going on long multi-part 20-30+ min missions like most open world games. Only a few major main story missions are long but I'd say there are maybe 3 like that, and one of them is near the end of the game and gives you a warning that it's long. Not to mention the blazing quick fast travel and load times. The game respects your time and I liked that about it. Definitely one of the better open world games when it comes to that.
 

Kurt Russell

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,504
Hard disagree, DS was particularly bad at this.
I'm guessing it's a very subjective thing then, since my experience couldn't be further from yours (and the game is very vivid in my memory, since I just beat it this week). This is not to say that your experience is invalid.

For sure. Where open world games usually fail is when they're trying to make the same loop last 50+ hours. In Death Stranding you're basically playing a different game at hour 1, 15, 30 and 45.

Yup! Every upgrade was meaningful, and there was always a new challenge.
 
OP
OP
mindsale

mindsale

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,911
Huh. I don't agree about Ghost of Tsushima's combat being a slog or getting stale at all. They do a great job of adding new stances, techniques, and tools at a nice pace throughout the entire game. I also thought the mission pacing was excellent too. Nearly all of the tales are like 5-15 min each and divvied up into individual ones so you don't end up going on long multi-part 20-30+ min missions like most open world games. Only a few major main story missions are long but I'd say there are maybe 3 like that, and one of them is near the end of the game and gives you a warning that it's long. Not to mention the blazing quick fast travel and load times. The game respects your time and I liked that about it. Definitely one of the better open world games when it comes to that.

It's totally possible I sidequested and explored myself into catatonic boredom, but by the time the game was like "now retake these areas," I felt seriously burnt out.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,438
RDR 2, I enjoyed the epilogue more on replay, but it was distracting the first time guessing when it would end.
 

ThatWasAJoke

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,373
I think I'll go crazy with this and list a bunch of open world games that I've played, worst to best, strictly in terms of pacing. (Meaning, the list may not correlate with how I'd rank the games overall.) Now, when I think "open world pacing," I get the same idea that a few of you have already cited. Pacing is going to be an issue in the genre regardless, but how engaged do I feel on a moment-to-moment basis? I can at times consider lonely wanderings as totally engaging -- provided the atmosphere is great -- because I'm into that kind of thing. But more broadly speaking, this list has a lot to do with content variety, emotional beats, and main storyline compulsion.

It's likely that not every game I list will agree with everyone's standards of what constitutes an open world game. Double whoops.



15.) The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall
There was never a single moment in which I felt engaged in exploration.

14.) Assassin's Creed II
Cool representations of a nifty historical period. Felt like a chore to me, anyway.

13.) The Legend of Zelda
It's got some neat tricks to it and I'm a sucker for the series. But it hasn't aged well enough that I'd care to go back.

12.) Digimon World: Next Order
I like the combat and it's fun wandering around with Digimon partners, but the environments are aesthetically subpar.

11.) The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
It's Elder Scrolls post-Daggerfall, so fun and unexpected things happen in a vast world. Only, they're often rather same-y and don't happen often enough for my liking.

10.) Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag
Sailing the open seas is a gem. An absolute gem. I'd do it forever in a game of global exploration if I could. But once I made landfall, I never cared nearly as much about anything.

09.) Final Fantasy XV
The story suffered hard for it, but I quite like driving around the Lucian continent. Running around on chocobos rarely gets old, and the best part is all those optional dungeons that make me feel like I'm playing a gorgeous rendition of the very first Final Fantasy. Too bad the rest of the game isn't so well-crafted to say the least.

08.) Fallout 4
Another case where the story just fails to take off, although at least in Final Fantasy XV's case there are still a few moments where I could feel a tear coming on and a handful of characters worth giving a damn about. Yet Fallout 4 outranks FFXV on this kind of list because Bethesda pulled a Bethesda; the world is a treat to traipse across. Unfortunately, most of the quests don't earn their keep by comparison.

07.) Dragon Age: Inquisition
Yes, many of the zones (which arguably disqualify the game from "open world" status, I know) needed a lot more engaging content. But I think the issue can be overstated at times. There are a few zones that successfully rope me in with clever quests galore. Crestwood is a good example. But even in those places where it's fetch after fetch after nothing whatsoever, the Dragon Age team made a beautiful, beautiful game with Frostbite, so all is forgiven. Except for the Forbidden Oasis. Fuck the Forbidden Oasis.

06.) Final Fantasy XII
You'd be forgiven for wondering why I'd rank XII so high (again, if it even qualifies) when almost everything revolves around battling. It's true, there isn't a lot of variety in that regard. Not even relative to many prior Final Fantasies (and even XV). Like Dragon Age: Inquisition, though, I have a lovely time wandering around anyway. FFXII, for those of whom it clicks with, can be a charming continental tour with excellent music and sometimes enough storyline momentum to carry it. It'd rank higher if that momentum didn't fall apart at times, especially for a vast chunk of the second act.

05.) Fallout 3
Some would scoff at me for this, but I prefer Inon Zur's moody, post-apocalyptic tunes to the staple Americana jingles everyone always seems to have blasting through their Pip-Boy. I'll turn those on every now and then, but wandering across the ruins of a world gone by, in the middle of the night both in-game and outside of it, isn't complete without the right minimalist sounds to complement all that moodiness. That's why I love best about Fallout 3, but it has enough engaging quests and dialogue romps scattered throughout that the pacing comes out looking clean.

04.) The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
That's going to be a recurring note for most of the remainder of this list -- clean pacing. Morrowind features smarter writing than Fallout 3, too, and while I'm not quite as enchanted with the alien game world as some, I still quite appreciate it. There are some bizarre beauties to be seen; sunsets over purple dunes; the moon rising over giant mushroom things. This is a game that has to be experienced firsthand to be understood.

03.) Fallout: New Vegas
Ever-cleverer writing holds New Vegas up so high, creating a terrific sense of pacing out of a world which just doesn't interest me as much as several others here in terms of active exploration. In other sorts of lists, New Vegas would place lower. If I were simply ranking open worlds from an aesthetic perspective, hot damn, this wouldn't be it. But there's no dearth of things to do -- damn near ever -- as you encounter all kinds of memorable characters seemingly at every turn.

02.) The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Overall, Skyrim's writing isn't as great as a fair few of these other games. There are blatantly missed opportunities to make things feel more urgent, and to make me care more about the extended cast. I'd still take the writing here over Oblivion's, mind you, but Morrowind's is on another level. So what gets Skyrim so far? Hundreds of hours in, and I still can't get enough of its titular realm. There's a majesty about it, and a sense of bitter loss and primal courage, that still shines nine years in and will continue to shine for many years to come. And though there are far too many instances of dead people in caves and bandit ambushes you saw coming from kilometers away, there are also enough heartfelt questlines (especially in the DLCs!) to mostly make up for that problem. Bethesda knocked it out of the park with this game.

01.) The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
What can I say that hasn't been said? I could link you my LTTP for it, but it's already been read plenty, and there are folks who have penned better tributes besides. All I can tell you is that I can understand why Breath of the Wild doesn't work for some, but I am part of the majority here who thinks it's more than justified as a critical darling and sales evergreen. "But you hardly even do anything," some will argue. Maybe. But I was stunned by how many towns there were strewn throughout, and each town's population drew me in, made me care, and gave me a sense of heroism that cannot be rivaled. What matters more is everything in-between those towns; Hyrule is the leading character in Breath of the Wild, and it's a Hyrule so vast and yet so perfectly handcrafted that I "worry" we'll never see anything quite like it again. I don't need hundreds of intricate dialogue-centric quests in every game I play; I want that on the regular from certain other developers, because it's their bread and butter, but for Zelda I want to be set free and ride a horse across a mystical land filled with charm. I got so much more than that here.

Out of interest why haven't you played Witcher 3, working for RPG focused website and all..?
 

Quinton

Specialist at TheGamer / Reviewer at RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
17,279
Midgar, With Love
Out of interest why haven't you played Witcher 3, working for RPG focused website and all..?

Valid question! I'm working my way through the books and then I plan on playing the games in order. I'm excited. The books have been kind of "eh" at times regarding a few social issues, but otherwise they're quite enjoyable.
 

ThatWasAJoke

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,373
Valid question! I'm working my way through the books and then I plan on playing the games in order. I'm excited. The books have been kind of "eh" at times regarding a few social issues, but otherwise they're quite enjoyable.
Enjoy! The things I would do to play Witcher 3 again for the first time!
 

AGoodODST

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,480
Honestly? Nearly all of them. Off the top of my head only ones I can think of that get it right are Bethesda games like Skyrim/Fallout and Breath of the Wild because the pace is determined by the player and the story isn't really that important.

A recent one I guess would be Xenoblade. On a rush to save the world, but let's spend an hour doing useless bullshit before you can continue the story.

I really think any open world game where the story is a huge focus has pacing issues.
 

Wesker

Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,877
To me AC: Odyssey was the worst thus far. Origins was far better paced imo.

Breath of the Wild was the best paced open-world game I have played in a long time.

Spider-Man is up there.

Crap, that's right. Spider-Man was the best. I actually forgot about that.
 
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Patitoloco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,689
I subscribe the idea that AC Odyssey is badly paced, the leveling is a disaster in that game, specially given how it's artificial. You will still fight the same scrawny soldiers in the next regions, they just suddenly can one hit kill you. Artificial padding. Origins did it SO MUCH BETTER, sounds like Valhalla will thankfully go back to Origins more than Odyssey.

AC 2, which has been named here as well, is really weirdly paced towards the end. The DLC, which is integrated in the PC version, destroys any kind of momentum the story had at that point, and to reach the ending you need to do all the Assassins Tombs, which were optional up until that point. It's weird, and I say that absolutely loving the game.

Otherwise, I can only think of how the story is paced to reflect how the "open world" is paced, if that makes sense. I feel in stories like GTAV or Spider-Man there's no real downtime, your doing crazy stuff in the story constantly, and how you use the open world is up to you.
Infamous 1 and 2 have the problem of the second island (which ends up being the second act) being bad lol (it happens in Ghost of Tsushima as well, where the second part of the map is the weakest, but luckily the story is pretty good there).

I would say Watch Dogs 2 has a really great balance in the story, world, activities and just pure sandboxy things to do. It's really hard to be bored playing that game.
 

snesiscool

Member
Feb 15, 2018
299
Elite: Dangerous is the worst paced game I and many others still enjoy. Early and mid-game incomes are quite fine, and it's incredibly satisfying to find a particularly high-paying mission or trade route. But once you have a few billion credits in your account, all of a sudden payouts become inadequate. Mission reward and trade profit amounts max out at a few tens of millions of credits, and for all but a few types of minerals, mining is near worthless. Exploration pays OK, but it takes months of play to match the payout of mining the most valuable minerals, which you can do in a few days. And don't get me started on combat! The best ways to make money in this game, especially at the endgame, are almost exploit level tricks, such as the much vaunted triple Low Temperature Diamond hotspot mining rush (which was nerfed hard in the past few months). Supposedly, the game was supposed to have all its activities pay similarly for the effort put in (I think this was mentioned in the game's Kickstarter campaign videos), but now the safest professions (mining, exploration) pay way more than the riskiest (combat).

It would help immensely if activities were actually fun to do, and they are, at first. "A mile wide, an inch deep" is a common criticism leveled at this game, and for good reason. At the surface level, activities are well-designed. But once you start doing an activity, you've seen everything there is of it, aside from maybe getting better ships and modules and fighting harder opponents. Really, the only endgame activity is fighting Thargoid ships, which doesn't pay enough like all other combat activites, but at least it's different enough from fighting normal NPCs. The shallowness of each activity at least encourages players to diversify what they do, since if you get bored of one activity, you can always switch to another. The game is still playable and fun enough that the playerbase is still quite active, and like me, many of them love this game, warts and all.