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SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,542
This should be the standard platform of all progressive candidates. Currently, the US will do it's best to hold the likes of Chelsea Manning in prison in perpetuity and it's abhorrent, and is done to discourage further whistleblowers, not punish individuals for their 'crimes'.

Good shit, Bernie.

I mean Manning leaked things without any regard for security or for people's safety. She deserved to be jailed for that, and then she refused to answer a grand jury in a seperate investigation into Wikileaks, if I recall correctly, and got jailed for that. She has definitely committed more than her fair share of crimes.
 

kambaybolongo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,028
???

You don't think that person is a whistleblower or deserve to receive whistleblower protection?
I think calling the Ukraine phone call guy a whistleblower but not Snowden is a sick joke. They obviously both are but what Snowden uncovered was far more important and scandalous.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is being a partisan hack imo
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
He's implying there is no plan and it's just empty words for populist "brownie points"...

He's explained how his team have costed their M4A and student debt forgiveness plans many, many times.
Seriously, he even did that Fox town hall where he said nothing was free and of course taxes would go up. No-one means "free" when they say free health care or whatever.

If anything it's Warren who's been flaky or the cost for M4A, not that I care because the line if questioning on taxes and M4A are disingenuous meant to give a soundbite where a politician is forced to say they'll raise your taxes without any of the relevant context of no more premiums, no more deductible, yadda yadda.
 

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
I mean Manning leaked things without any regard for security or for people's safety. She deserved to be jailed for that, and then she refused to answer a grand jury in a seperate investigation into Wikileaks, if I recall correctly, and got jailed for that. She has definitely committed more than her fair share of crimes.
the US intelligence community, which is obviously biased against manning, admitted multiple times that her leaks did not end up getting anyone killed. she did not deserve prison and certainly didn't deserve the extended periods of solitary confinement (torture) she had to endure.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,269
My favorite thing about the Sanders campaign is how effectively it has exposed people who masquerade as progressive as not being anywhere nearly as Leftist as they like to posture as.
 

Horns

Member
Dec 7, 2018
2,513
Maybe not the most popular opinion, but Snowden is a criminal and coward who fled to Russia. He's not a whistleblower. He deserves to spend some time in prison for his actions.
 

konpeki

Member
Jun 13, 2019
4
I mean Manning leaked things without any regard for security or for people's safety. […]

Manning didn't simply release the documents into the wild. She gave them to Wikileaks, so they could review them and choose what to release.

Wikileaks invited the US State Department and Department of Defense to review the leaks prior to release, which both departments declined. Either being able to blame a whistleblower with endangerment of their personnel was more important than the actual safety of their personnel, or there wasn't that much danger to begin with.

btw Wikileaks withheld some documents to protect informants and agents based on their own review.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
the US intelligence community, which is obviously biased against manning, admitted multiple times that her leaks did not end up getting anyone killed. she did not deserve prison and certainly didn't deserve the extended periods of solitary confinement (torture) she had to endure.
Oh, she definitely deserved prison, she just did a giant data dump and sent it off to get looked through, whether it endangered anyone's lives or not is secondary, and honestly was just luck as she didn't know what she was leaking at the time anyways.
Why are you assuming all he should have done was get what he found? It's the CIA. The place that's supposed to be doing all sorts of dirty shit, did he bother looking for something, anything worthy of whistleblowing on? What did he think of what the CIA and the government was doing while Bush was president? Was he ok with Guanatamo?
Who cares? Maybe he was ok with torturing enemy combatants and not spying willy nilly on all Americans? Maybe he didn't get access to anything juicy at the start of his career, or are we assuming the CIA just runs down a list of all their top secret illegal shit at the newcomers orientation?
Then explain why he only found this patriotic fervour while the US had a Democrat president. Did he bother trying to do this at the CIA back then? Snowden going to Ron Paul for an interview and going on about the Deep State is what concerns me, why doesn't concern you? Why did it take all that time to muster up that courage to blow the whistle when he was in the lion's den for years before a Democrat won the presidency. I'm not asking you to believe me, I'm asking you to question things and not take anyone at their word just because they did something you liked once.
Again, who cares? If it's fact, it's fact. This is like going after the current leaker because s/he is a registered Democrat. At some point you gotta accept that there'll be people of all political and social stripes working in government and all of them will have different tipping points over what constitutes wrong doing, regardless, if they're dropping facts the motive is irrelevant.
 

lacer

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,693
Snowden worked at Langley itself, you think he couldn't find shit to whistleblow on if he wanted to? It was a slight insinuation, since how I framed it was correct. He didn't do anything until Obama was president and in later posts I addressed other motives since it's known he wasn't a Democrat. Did he disagree with what the CIA was doing while Bush was in office?
lol yeah Snowden is a traitor because he didn't infiltrate the CIA with the explicit intent of exposing their war crimes, but instead exposed the most widespread domestic surveillance program in history after becoming aware of it. that would have been totally possible too because the CIA is so incompetent that a 22 year old can walk in and penetrate the most monolithic intelligence agency on the planet. galaxy brain shit right here
 

oledome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,907
lacer Snowden joined the CIA to uncover illegal doings, was sitting on a trove of intel at his induction but decided to hold off, to own Obama
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,862
I like how Kirblar and other 'Snowden is a racist POS' chanters are completely ignoring Morrigan's post as they have no answer to it, and they cannot stand being wrong and have their little bubbles burst.

Snowden was still associating with libertarian figures as late as 2017. But, regardless, If Snowden has disavowed his far-right past, then, fantastic. It's great for someone to admit they're wrong.

It's just fundamentally bizarre for what should be the lukewarm progressive take of "Snowden did a good thing, and whistleblowers should be protected, but making heroes out of problematic or right-wing figures is, in itself, an issue" is being treated as controversial.

I'm not one for gatekeeping, but I'm side-eyeing a lot of alleged progressives in this thread for being angry that their fave is problematic.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,332
I mean it's possible to think Snowden is a shitty person while acknowledging he did a great thing for the US and the world at great cost to himself, and also that the Espionage Act and it's use against government whistle blowers is completely fucked. All these things are sitting comfortably in my head right now and I'm not having a major malfunction.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
good stuff from bernie and the sidest of side eyes for anyone who has a problem with this
Chelsea has been and continues to be tortured, the fact that she had to fight like hell for years to get HRT is only a part of the shit she has had to go through.

I could even understand the people that think that she should be in jail for ignoring a subpoena!

But solitary confinement while being drained of her entire resources? Are you fucking nuts? Are these people completely blind to the fact that she had multiple suicide attempts while in prison?

If your defense of her being treated like shit is "but thats the system" then the system is trash, pure and simple.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,862
Again, who cares? If it's fact, it's fact. This is like going after the current leaker because s/he is a registered Democrat. At some point you gotta accept that there'll be people of all political and social stripes working in government and all of them will have different tipping points over what constitutes wrong doing, regardless, if they're dropping facts the motive is irrelevant.

- It is relevant if people are arguing he should lionized, treated as a hero, of that progressives should care about his endorsement.

- It is not relevant in regards to his whistleblower status, the facts that he brought to light, or whether whistleblowers should be protected (they should).

Both these things can be true.
 

Deleted member 8644

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
975
User banned (1 day): inflammatory generalization and accusation against the community
I like how Ichthyosaurus is making up some fantasy scenario about Snowden walking in the cia and finding out immediately all the illegal shit they've done.

Plus even if he did see all that stuff not caring about what the US does to people abroad would put him on par with about 90% of dems on this forum
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Consistently trash. Chelsea Manning was tortured for the goverment for bringing war crimes to light. Maybe show some fucking respect.
What happened during her imprisonment is awful and completely justified her early release.

Shee was jailed justifiably because she didnt just whistleblow, she shit documents out into the open like a malfunctioning ATM working with what we now know was a hostile foreign intelligence front. And when she was freed she decided the best use of her time was to party with Nazis and refuse to testify against said hostile intelligence front. So no, she will never have my respect because she does not deserve it.
 

AdrianG4

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
565
User banned (2 weeks): personal attacks and highly inflammatory accusations against another member + recent similar infractions
"I like how Ichthyosaurus is making up some fantasy scenario about Snowden walking in the cia and finding out immediately all the illegal shit they've done.

Plus even if he did see all that stuff not caring about what the US does to people abroad would put him on par with about 90% of dems on this forum"

And look at the posters he aligns himself with. All in bed with fantasies of anti-muslim, anti Chinese pro Middle eastern genocidal policies.

Would be surprised If they ever even had a passport before or if traveling to a neighboring state would be considered the same to them as traveling abroad.

Edit: Sorry I meant to quote Rael. Internet a bit slow in rural Myanmar.
 
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hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,399
The line need to be drawn for what is a government secret (military, technology, etc) and what is a violation of any number of international acts. One is a legit act of espionage and the other is making information public to out wrongdoings.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,862
And look at the posters he aligns himself with. All in bed with fantasies of anti-muslim, anti Chinese pro Middle eastern genocidal policies.

Would be surprised If they ever even had a passport before or if traveling to a neighboring state would be considered the same to them as traveling abroad.

I – what?
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,305
I'm still not convinced Snowden revealed anything that wasn't written in post 9/11 legislation (ex. PATRIOT act) or what civil right orgs were fighting the government on about transparency and surveillance.
If the information Snowden revealed wasn't game-changing, he wouldn't have to literally flee the country

I mean, I think Morrigan is fundamentally wrong on her read of him. We're not going to agree on this. I don't see a "young kid being stupid" when there's only a year or two gap here and stuff like UBI is very much compatible with libertarian views, as we're so frequently reminded.
Wat? Libertarians are for social safety nets now? Read his quote again. Jesus.

And really, "rational discussion?" Are you suddenly Ben Shapiro or something?
...Excuse me?

You know what, nevermind.

Snowden exposed mass, illegal, surveillance of innocent US citizens. I don't get the hate that boils from small sections of Era at all, his actions came at great personal cost, there is zero evidence that the information he disseminated through news outlets endangered anyone, the release of that information was handled by them. It started a conversation and opened the public's eyes to what extent the government was capable and willing to just soak up all the data it could without any consideration for an individual's right to privacy.

Middleman I want to understand where your line of thinking (and some others) comes from. To describe him as reckless doesn't line up with how he released the information, to describe him as a traitor rejects that he is a whistleblower when he is the very definition of one. Do you disagree that Snowden demonstrated the US government acted illegally, unethically and at a cost to you (I'm going to assume you're from the US)?

Snowden's politics as a US libertarian are irrelevant in a discussion about his actions as a whistleblower in 2013 and what should happen to him now. Snowden deserves protection and should be allowed back into his country.
lol yeah Snowden is a traitor because he didn't infiltrate the CIA with the explicit intent of exposing their war crimes, but instead exposed the most widespread domestic surveillance program in history after becoming aware of it. that would have been totally possible too because the CIA is so incompetent that a 22 year old can walk in and penetrate the most monolithic intelligence agency on the planet. galaxy brain shit right here
Thank you~

Did Snowden ever say why he didn't do anything like this doing George W Bush administration? Whistleblowing is necessary for any party who breaks the law, but Snowden's only doing it when a black Democrat in office deserves a side eye. It's not like Bush wasn't doing bad shit in office.
Snowden didn't start working as a subcontractor for the NSA until 2009.
Snowden became a whistleblower once he found out the NSA was spying on US citizens and James Clapper lied to Congress and said they weren't.

He wouldn't have been in a position to blow the whistle on any of that when he was at the CIA since the CIA largely operates outside the USA.
Oops. Pesky facts getting in the way of the narrative again.

Snowden was still associating with libertarian figures as late as 2017. But, regardless, If Snowden has disavowed his far-right past, then, fantastic. It's great for someone to admit they're wrong.

It's just fundamentally bizarre for what should be the lukewarm progressive take of "Snowden did a good thing, and whistleblowers should be protected, but making heroes out of problematic or right-wing figures is, in itself, an issue" is being treated as controversial.

I'm not one for gatekeeping, but I'm side-eyeing a lot of alleged progressives in this thread for being angry that their fave is problematic.
You didn't say "problematic", you wrote "far-right". You know there's a serious difference between "problematic" and "far-right", yes? Even when he was a libertarian moron, there was no evidence of him being far-right, and there certainly is no evidence of him being far-right today.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Wat? Libertarians are for social safety nets now? Read his quote again. Jesus.

...Excuse me?

You know what, nevermind.
Andrew Yang's UBI program involves explicitly giving up every other social safety net in the process. UBI comiung from libertarians is very much a thing and why many lefties have (understandably) a knee-jerk negative reaction to the concept because of people coming from it from that angle. You called me irrational- I don't understand how what I've written justifies that.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
12,862
You didn't say "problematic", you wrote "far-right". You know there's a serious difference between "problematic" and "far-right", yes? Even when he was a libertarian moron, there was no evidence of him being far-right

The American libertarian movement is far-right. It became one of the main precursors to the modern alt-right. If you don't think donating money and vocalizing support for a white supremacist homophobe who courted neo-nazis and the Alex Jones crowd isn't at least some evidence, then I totally disagree.

and there certainly is no evidence of him being far-right today.

Dude was spouting alt-right talking points about the deep state with Ron Paul as far back as 2017. There's no strong evidence either way that he's completely disavowed his former beliefs.
 

Hellwarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,078
Good.

Snowden should be able to come home.

BTW, Obama hated whisleblowers, and if you're more angry at Snowden than him, take a hike.
 

Bryo4321

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,511
Andrew Yang's UBI program involves explicitly giving up every other social safety net in the process. UBI comiung from libertarians is very much a thing and why many lefties have (understandably) a knee-jerk negative reaction to the concept because of people coming from it from that angle. You called me irrational- I don't understand how what I've written justifies that.
This is not even true. You can keep your current social safety nets, the freedom dovidend is an opt in system, and he is still for Medicare for all. Are you sure you are familiar with his proposed policy? Who are these UBI libertarians? I'm really curious where your information comes from because this doesn't line up with anything I'm familiar with. (This is a genuine question, I'm not trying to be snarky or anything!)

IMO Snowden did a great service to this country, he is not a traitor or reckless, he exposed how our own country is betraying us and our public officials are abusing their power and lying to us about it.
 

Snowy

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,399
"Snowden is actually a cryptoracist who only did what he did to fuck with the first black President" is galaxy brain shit that I don't believe anybody actually thinks, but if you do, you have brain worms heretofore uncatalogued by even the most devoted entomologist and are thoroughly useless to any kind of actual effort to make the US anything other than the Mecca of capitalistic imperialism.

And, news flash: a hero can have bad politics! Heroism is not about the totality of a person's character, it's about whether you are willing to take on enormous personal risk for the benefit of others. History will undoubtedly look on Snowden as a true patriot and hero, someone who exposed widespread misdeeds and abuse by the most powerful government on the planet, and they won't care what his politics are because, in all likelihood, his politics as they relate to the contemporary landscape will be irrelevant to a world that is a minimum of 1.5 C warmer and labored upon primarily by robots and software. You can either get on board with the obvious, or you can be a contrarian goober.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
This is not even true. You can keep your current social safety nets, the freedom dovidend is an opt in system, and he is still for Medicare for all. Why not actually read up on his policy? Who are this UBI libertarians? You're grasping at straws here.

Snowden did a great service to this country, he is not a traitor or reckless, he exposed how our own country is betraying us and our public officials are abusing their power and lying to us about it.
UBI with libertarians is largely about dismantling the existing social safety net and replacing it with a "universal" one that's just straight up worse. Examples of this here, here and here. You cannot keep your current social safety nets and get UBI under Yang's proposal, which completely negates the point of why you should be doing it - it's a handout to people who don't currently make large use out of existing social safety nets. I have read up on the damn policies as we've had this issue come up for years when it's been discussed here and the old place and it made me understand why it would get a negative reaction in some quarters, because of the reason it was being pushed by some on the opposite end of the spectrum.
 

sangreal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,890
Snowden became a whistleblower once he found out the NSA was spying on US citizens and James Clapper lied to Congress and said they weren't.

He wouldn't have been in a position to blow the whistle on any of that when he was at the CIA since the CIA largely operates outside the USA.

Sure, he likes to say that but it defies reality considering that 1) The reason why Clapper was even asked is because the NSA's domestic spying was blown open in 2005, 2) Snowden's desire to leak information began during his time at the CIA, by his own account, and 3) he stole most of the documents before Clapper's testimony
 

Venomgxt

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
88
Good on Bernie Sanders. He is my second candidate behind Andrew Yang.

And yes, people with shitty far right views can be considered heroes as well. You dont have to like the guy but chill folks.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,089
Sydney
Sure, he likes to say that but it defies reality considering that 1) The reason why Clapper was even asked is because the NSA's domestic spying was blown open in 2005, 2) Snowden's desire to leak information began during his time at the CIA, by his own account, and 3) he stole most of the documents before Clapper's testimony

Yes but Clapper's testimony is in 2013. It works perfectly fine as a timeline for Snowden he was motivated to became a whistleblower and then stole the documents between his time as an NSA subcontractor in 2009-2013, all during the Obama years.