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JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,756
South Central Los Angeles
I'll agree that his recent depictions of black people are on the "wtf are you doing, stop it" level but Bengus has such a long history of exploring and mastering different art styles over literal decades (drawing plenty of black people well over the years) that it seems more like a particular stylization style that failed.

He's making a choice to portray black characters in ways he doesn't portray other characters. Yeah, his style has changed, but that stylistic change doesn't explain the sambofied/otherized black characters and all other characters not being racist caricatures.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Lol. Racist? Have you been to japan or familiar with their culture at all? Most commonly they view black people as caricatures.

These particular racist caricatures may be endemic to Japanese media, but sentiment similar to "can't expect Japanese people to know/do better," unfairly glosses over Japanese people/companies that actually know & do better, and indirectly excuses and downplays the times it does happen.
 

Grifter

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,573
They got rid of the Tasty Steve commentary entirely based on the survey responses, not to mention other changes they've made along the way. Regardless, it's an official way to have our voices heard.
They just yanked him off their rotation? Based plainly on the performance feedback?

Edit: NM, caught up. Been gone and thought I missed some scandal.
 
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Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
This is more on Capcom than Bengus, debating over how intentional or not this is useless here when this should never get past a huge company with a big wester market focus like Capcom in the first place. No way no one in the chain of command that led to this making it into the game knew it's offensive and if that's the case, this has to change.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,912
He's making a choice to portray black characters in ways he doesn't portray other characters. Yeah, his style has changed, but that stylistic change doesn't explain the sambofied/otherized black characters and all other characters not being racist caricatures.

In general art terms, when you're going for a more stylized style you go for "caricatures" meaning you emphasize traits in order to make them more noticeable or unique. Lots of people around the world, particularly in Japan, will stylize black characters with giant lips. A non-racist person who hasnt been made aware or made to understand the problematic nature of doing that will make that mistake just as much as a racist person whos doing it on purpose … and that sucks for all involved. In highly insular countries like Japan this is even more prevalent.

In my view that "explains" the situation but, like I said, doesnt excuse it. If I had access to Bengus Id be more than happy to explain it to him, but thats not likely to happen. In my own art team I have had the chance to correct that behavior in some of my artists and I can tell you this was a complete shock to them as they had no idea.
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,756
South Central Los Angeles
In general art terms, when you're going for a more stylized style you go for "caricatures" meaning you emphasize traits in order to make them more noticeable or unique. Lots of people around the world, particularly in Japan, will stylize black characters with giant lips. A non-racist person who hasnt been made aware or made to understand the problematic nature of doing that will make that mistake just as much as a racist person whos doing it on purpose … and that sucks for all involved. In highly insular countries like Japan this is even more prevalent.

In my view that "explains" the situation but, like I said, doesnt excuse it. If I had access to Bengus Id be more than happy to explain it to him, but thats not likely to happen. In my own art team I have had the chance to correct that behavior in some of my artists and I can tell you this was a complete shock to them as they had no idea.

He doesn't caricaturize anybody else this way. Just black people, black male characters in particular. The rest of his characters are pretty much consistently stylized. I'm not buying it as some innocent stylistic choice with no bias attached.

And I'm aware people around the world stylize black people with giant lips. People around the world be wildly antiblack. There's no excuse for this shit in 2021.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,912
He doesn't caricaturize anybody else this way. Just black people, black male characters in particular. The rest of his characters are pretty much consistently stylized. I'm not buying it as some innocent stylistic choice with no bias attached.

And I'm aware people around the world stylize black people with giant lips. People around the world be wildly antiblack. There's no excuse for this shit in 2021.
Im just giving you a possible explanation, whether you think its plausible or not is up to you and of course I don't know whats in the mans head. He shouldnt do it, full stop.

Like I said, not an excuse, but a possible explanation. I will say the "in 2021" thing is VERY country and/or culture dependent. Not everybody is up on the internet interacting with people of other races and cultures and we know that in Japan the chances of learning this irl are close to zero.
 

Fukuzatsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,323
Got curious and tried to visualize the ethnic diversity of the Street Fighter cast a bit. I'm definitely fudging things, but it seems like over time Japanese and other nonwhite characters have gotten less prominent in the roster while white characters are getting more prominent.


1:
Japanese 4 - 33% (Ryu, Ken, Retsu, Geki)
White: 2 - 17% (Joe, Eagle)
Nonwhite: 6 - 50% (Mike, Lee, Gen, Birdie, Adon, Sagat)

2:
Japanese: 2 - 14% (Akuma, E. Honda)
White: 4 - 29% (Cammy, Guile, Vega, Zangief)
Nonwhite: 8 - 57% (Balrog, Blanka, Chun Li, Dee Jay, Dhalsim, Fei Long, M. Bison, T. Hawk)

Alpha:
Japanese: 5 - 45% (Dan, Guy, Sakura, Karin, R. Mika)
White: 6 - 55% (Charlie, Rolento, Rose, Sodom, Cody, Juli, Juni)
Nonwhite: 0

3:
Japanese: 3 - 19% (Ibuki, Oro, Makoto)
White: 7 - 44% (Alex, Gill, Necro, Hugo, Urien, Q, Remy)
Nonwhite: 5 - 31% (Dudley, Elena, Sean, Yun, Yang)
N/A: 1 - 6% (Twelve)

4:
Japanese: 1 - 10% (Gouken)
White: 6 - 60% (Abel, C. Viper, Decapre, Hakan, Poison, Rufus)
Nonwhite: 2 - 20% (El Fuerte, Juri)
N/A: 1 - 10% (Seth)

5:
Japanese: 2 - 13% (Akira, Zeku)
White: 7 - 47% (Abigail, Ed, Falke, G, Kolin, Lucia, Luke)
Nonwhite: 5 - 33% (F.A.N.G., Laura, Menat, Necalli, Rashid)
N/A: 1 - 7% (Eleven)

I get what you're trying to convey here, but at least as far as SFIII is concerned it probably doesn't make sense to say that these characters are "white":
67f61783b4ac7c6c05b23e7af9b196ce.jpg
urien-3rd.jpg
q-3rd.jpg
BpWfC027peZOQlXkeN3HRH6Hp0zoM0ELuYtEqfe9GEv2I_42xYTjJdg_3Ah1sNJiGrb3dtkOLuM339a6cIVHFR50aaPL10CqmZa-10eNqArWxvf1E-eMZAe4lAPNJ4BJEw9-WLF1m-JoAnO-


As for SFIV, while the stylisation of Hakan is a bit much for an ostensibly non-mythical character, Hakan is very decidedly also not white:
image
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,663
I get what you're trying to convey here, but at least as far as SFIII is concerned it probably doesn't make sense to say that these characters are "white":
67f61783b4ac7c6c05b23e7af9b196ce.jpg
urien-3rd.jpg
q-3rd.jpg
BpWfC027peZOQlXkeN3HRH6Hp0zoM0ELuYtEqfe9GEv2I_42xYTjJdg_3Ah1sNJiGrb3dtkOLuM339a6cIVHFR50aaPL10CqmZa-10eNqArWxvf1E-eMZAe4lAPNJ4BJEw9-WLF1m-JoAnO-


As for SFIV, while the stylisation of Hakan is a bit much for an ostensibly non-mythical character, Hakan is very decidedly also not white:
image

Necro I could see as white since he's from Russia, which is overwhelmingly Caucasian.

But I agree that the others shouldn't be. Even Gill with his blonde locks, since he is also Urien's brother and from the Mediterranean.
 

JusDoIt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,756
South Central Los Angeles
I will say the "in 2021" thing is VERY country and/or culture dependent. Not everybody is up on the internet interacting with people of other races and cultures and we know that in Japan the chances of learning this irl are close to zero.

As others in this thread have mentioned, while there are many in the Japanese gaming industry who are as culturally insensitive as Bengus, there are plenty who are not. This is particularly made clear when others artists working on SFV can render the same character in a completely unoffensive way while Bengus makes them into a sambo.

Most notably Balrog, who looks like this in game
250

Dope!

And like this when Bengus draws him for promo art
balrog-sfv-bengus.png
 
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Im just giving you a possible explanation, whether you think its plausible or not is up to you and of course I don't know whats in the mans head. He shouldnt do it, full stop.

Like I said, not an excuse, but a possible explanation. I will say the "in 2021" thing is VERY country and/or culture dependent. Not everybody is up on the internet interacting with people of other races and cultures and we know that in Japan the chances of learning this irl are close to zero.

youtu.be

What do you mean by that? - Druski meme

#Meme #DruskiTwitter, Insta, TikTok: @DFlxres
 

Fukuzatsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,323
Necro I could see as white since he's from Russia, which is overwhelmingly Caucasian.

But I agree that the others shouldn't be. Even Gill with his blonde locks, since he is also Urien's brother and from the Mediterranean.
Well right, ethnically we assume that Necro was originally white, as he has a kind of Australian (?) accent in-game and fights in Russia, but he's a bit like Blanka in that he's a "monster". He certainly doesn't resemble that anymore, though.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,045
Necro and Q are counted as white in 3? Come on
Q I made an assumption, but Necro's just a Russian guy who has had experiments done on him.
I get what you're trying to convey here, but at least as far as SFIII is concerned it probably doesn't make sense to say that these characters are "white":
67f61783b4ac7c6c05b23e7af9b196ce.jpg
urien-3rd.jpg
q-3rd.jpg
BpWfC027peZOQlXkeN3HRH6Hp0zoM0ELuYtEqfe9GEv2I_42xYTjJdg_3Ah1sNJiGrb3dtkOLuM339a6cIVHFR50aaPL10CqmZa-10eNqArWxvf1E-eMZAe4lAPNJ4BJEw9-WLF1m-JoAnO-


As for SFIV, while the stylisation of Hakan is a bit much for an ostensibly non-mythical character, Hakan is very decidedly also not white:
image
Q I made an assumption based on G, so I'll give you that one. Necro's explicitly just a Russian guy who has had experiments on him. Urien's dark skin is a result of his superpowers - you actually can see him transforming from paler skin before a fight in 3 - and both he and Gill are based on ancient Greek wrestlers. Hakan's just a caricatured Turkish guy; Turkey's a bit weird to discuss in terms of the nebulous idea of whiteness since it's both in Europe and the Middle East and has influence on and in both, but I went with white here since it's a country that's long been in consideration to join the European Union and Turkish people are often considered to be white from a US or European perspective.

Even if you're going purely by skin colour, I'm not sure if I'd give Street Fighter diversity points for this:

urien-street-fighter08jv1.gif
 

Fukuzatsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,323
Q I made an assumption, but Necro's just a Russian guy who has had experiments done on him.

Q I made an assumption based on G, so I'll give you that one. Necro's explicitly just a Russian guy who has had experiments on him. Urien's dark skin is a result of his superpowers - you actually can see him transforming from paler skin before a fight in 3 - and both he and Gill are based on ancient Greek wrestlers. Hakan's just a caricatured Turkish guy; Turkey's a bit weird to discuss in terms of the nebulous idea of whiteness since it's both in Europe and the Middle East and has influence on and in both, but I went with white here since it's a country that's long been in consideration to join the European Union and Turkish people are often considered to be white from a US or European perspective.

Even if you're going purely by skin colour, I'm not sure if I'd give Street Fighter diversity points for this:

urien-street-fighter08jv1.gif
That appearance of Urien as light-skinned is only in this sprite animation, and is notably absent from Street Fighter V; if anything the implication is that his dark-skinned appearance is the "true" one. His arcade mode ending shows that he was dark-skinned as a kid as well, in the distant past with Gill, where Gill is light-skinned (though re: Gill this has never been depicted until SFV):
urien-ending.png


Now, again, if you're just defining everything from Ireland to Turkey as "white" regardless of how the character looks, then by that definition characters from the mediterranean and near east are "white", yes. For the purposes of representation, I just don't think it's worthwhile to try to adjudicate the background of characters who are "mystic" or otherwise unknown, like Q. If you take G and Q to be different characters, G is definitely white, however (he's basically blond Abraham Lincoln and speaks with a southern drawl).
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,045
That appearance of Urien as light-skinned is only in this sprite animation, and is notably absent from Street Fighter V; if anything the implication is that his dark-skinned appearance is the "true" one. His arcade mode ending shows that he was dark-skinned as a kid as well, in the distant past with Gill, where Gill is light-skinned (though re: Gill this has never been depicted until SFV):
urien-ending.png


Now, again, if you're just defining everything from Ireland to Turkey as "white" regardless of how the character looks, then by that definition characters from the mediterranean and near east are "white", yes. For the purposes of representation, I just don't think it's worthwhile to try to adjudicate the background of characters who are "mystic" or otherwise unknown, like Q. If you take G and Q to be different characters, G is definitely white, however (he's basically blond Abraham Lincoln and speaks with a southern drawl).
The thing is that there are no real-world mystical people to represent, so I'm not really concerned for the purpose of this discussion that a character is mystical if they're otherwise pointing towards a real world place.
 

Dali

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,184
That's a racist caricature alright. Japan seems to love it and see nothing wrong with it as evidenced by numerous examples in internationally consumed media.

In general art terms, when you're going for a more stylized style you go for "caricatures" meaning you emphasize traits in order to make them more noticeable or unique. Lots of people around the world, particularly in Japan, will stylize black characters with giant lips. A non-racist person who hasnt been made aware or made to understand the problematic nature of doing that will make that mistake just as much as a racist person whos doing it on purpose … and that sucks for all involved. In highly insular countries like Japan this is even more prevalent.

In my view that "explains" the situation but, like I said, doesnt excuse it. If I had access to Bengus Id be more than happy to explain it to him, but thats not likely to happen. In my own art team I have had the chance to correct that behavior in some of my artists and I can tell you this was a complete shock to them as they had no idea.

The problem with your "not an excuse" is it keeps coming up in relation to Japan time and time again. Capcom isn't a small, 2-person, operation, and Street Fighter isn't some indy that's getting shown off at comiket. There's no excuse and it's really hard to use the naive buffoon excuse over and over again.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,912
As others in this thread have mentioned, while there are many in the Japanese gaming industry who are as culturally insensitive as Bengus, there are plenty who are not. This is particularly made clear when others artists working on SFV can render the same character in a completely unoffensive way while Bengus makes them into a sambo.

Most notably Balrog, who looks like this in game
250

Dope!

And like this when Bengus draws him for promo art
balrog-sfv-bengus.png

yeah no disagreements there, I do know that a bunch of the models are outsourced outside of Japan which at least helps
That's a racist caricature alright. Japan seems to love it and see nothing wrong with it as evidenced by numerous examples in internationally consumed media.

The problem with your "not an excuse" is it keeps coming up in relation to Japan time and time again. Capcom isn't a small, 2-person, operation, and Street Fighter isn't some indy that's getting shown off at comiket. There's no excuse and it's really hard to use the naive buffoon excuse over and over again.

Fair enough but its something I can draw on based of my own experience, having also worked for big companies and dealing with artists that had no idea about any of this until I taught them otherwise and they were pretty crushed to learn they had been doing something racist all their lives.
 
OP
OP
Neoxon

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
85,379
Houston, TX
That's a racist caricature alright. Japan seems to love it and see nothing wrong with it as evidenced by numerous examples in internationally consumed media.



The problem with your "not an excuse" is it keeps coming up in relation to Japan time and time again. Capcom isn't a small, 2-person, operation, and Street Fighter isn't some indy that's getting shown off at comiket. There's no excuse and it's really hard to use the naive buffoon excuse over and over again.
As I said…
The Japanese gaming industry isn't a monolith, especially considering that plenty have been stepping up their game regarding how they depict Black folks. Even Nintendo EPD are starting to get with the program, though they sadly didn't extend said memo their contact workers (this is in reference to the racist stereotypes found in some of Smash's spirit battles).
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,379
Hakan's just a caricatured Turkish guy; Turkey's a bit weird to discuss in terms of the nebulous idea of whiteness since it's both in Europe and the Middle East and has influence on and in both, but I went with white here since it's a country that's long been in consideration to join the European Union and Turkish people are often considered to be white from a US or European perspective.
Whiteness is definitely a nebulous label, but I don't think you can lump Turkey indiscriminately into that. Like, Turkic peoples in general - of which the Turks are, unsurprisingly, the best known - have been conceived of as the fundamental Other to Europe for literal millennia. Just by virtue of being a Muslim-majority country it's going to hit against some fundamental assumptions about what whiteness is.

I can see Turks being white-passing, as individuals, but you'd have to ignore a LOT of history to uncontroversially sort them with Europe at large in that way.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
As others in this thread have mentioned, while there are many in the Japanese gaming industry who are as culturally insensitive as Bengus, there are plenty who are not. This is particularly made clear when others artists working on SFV can render the same character in a completely unoffensive way while Bengus makes them into a sambo.

Most notably Balrog, who looks like this in game
250

Dope!

And like this when Bengus draws him for promo art
balrog-sfv-bengus.png

It's honestly weird to see so many people in this thread go with the "that's just the norm for Japanese media" excuse when it's somewhat moved away from overtly racist depictions in modern times. Even anime has substantially improved here (see the Banana Fish remake as a good example )

Not saying it still doesn't happen (because it absolutely does), but it's absolutely no longer the overwhelming norm. Which is what makes Bengus' art particularly super galling.
 

EntelechyFuff

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Nov 19, 2019
10,221
The Birdie thing reminds me of the theory that Dudley was South Asian rather than Black
I'd buy that people thought Dudley was white before birdie. But no one is confused about that in here for some reason.

I never even played SF Alpha, but I always interpreted birdie to not only be black, but also borderline racist due to that one keyart of him wielding a shiv.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,576
The Birdie thing reminds me of the theory that Dudley was South Asian rather than Black
I can sort of buy this due to the Freddie Mercury references and England's history of colonialism in the subcontinent. I figure Capcom would've said something about it by now if this was the case though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Really hoping Capcom will take notes. The fact it went so far like this is embarrassing.

Like I said before, Bengus should retire from SF. His art in 5 is terrible. He also has an issue with lightening black or brown characters.

Remember that time he portrayed Menat as white? I wasn't sure if people were wrong or not but if you guys look at E honda story mode you can see. While we are on that topic, the sexualization in that story just shows that he really needs to go. Almost every woman he draws looks awful.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,121
Dudley is straight up just Legally Distinct Chris Eubank Sr.

Just to make my point:

unknown.png

youtu.be

CHRIS EUBANK FUNNY MOMENTS

Boxing legend Chris Eubanks best moments in a compilation of his best bitsif I hit 1k subs, I'll release a part 2 - https://youtu.be/X953zZWStX4CREDIT TO @No...

Chris Eubank Sr said:
"What is more cool than being able to beat men then, outside of the ring, I'm gentle?"
 
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Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
I'm not a fan of them lightening Sean's skin color in SFV. I hope whenever he returns he has his original complexion.
 

Witch of Miracles

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 13, 2019
2,752
United Kingdom
The old is Dudley black or Indian discourse was pure cancer, always leading to Dudley can't be black because he doesn't have big ass lips. I'm glad that for the most part its in the past. People not realising Birdie is black is a new one for me though, like bloody hell how??

Anywho Bengus needs to go.
 

Scrappy-Fan92

Member
Jan 14, 2021
8,918
It's honestly weird to see so many people in this thread go with the "that's just the norm for Japanese media" excuse when it's somewhat moved away from overtly racist depictions in modern times. Even anime has substantially improved here (see the Banana Fish remake as a good example )

Not saying it still doesn't happen (because it absolutely does), but it's absolutely no longer the overwhelming norm. Which is what makes Bengus' art particularly super galling.
Thank you for sharing the Tweet.

j8jyf.jpg

The kid on the right is adorable.
 

hqqttjiang

Banned
Oct 8, 2018
98
User Banned (Permanent): Complaining about political correctness in a thread regarding racist stereotypes of Black people
this Fucking PC will destroy all movie and games!! Fuck it