Belief in God in U.S. dips to 81%, a new low

[Royalan]

See, but this means he intended it to happen from the start. Because you literally can't say an omnipotent god has to do anythin, because that inherently violates the claims of omnipotence. If god doesn't have a choice, then they're not omnipotent

Click to shrink...

He did! LOL - again this is not a gotcha. There is literally a passage in the Bible where God the Father has a conversation with God the Son about how he knows everything he's setting in motion is going to require Jesus to go down to earth and sacrifice himself to create a pathway for humans to enter heaven.

 

[PixelatedDonut]

It's largely because folks don't know what happens after death. Why would rebirth take away from the beauty of nature?

Click to shrink...

Well I just explained what happens after something dies, things are dying around us constantly. You would call a tardigrade swimming in water alive, when it is eaten or dies, it becomes fuel for other life.

 

[MeBecomingI]

If God was real, God should just show up and prove it's existence to the remaining 19% and be done with it.

But God isn't real.

Also, that number is insanely high.

 

[Thordinson]

Well I just explained what happens after something dies, things ad re dying around us constantly. You woulcall a tardigrade swimming in water alive, when it is eaten or dies, it becomes fuel for other life.

Click to shrink...

Folks don't know if consciousness ends at death or if there is another plane of existence, etc. Even if things are dying around us constantly, this doesn't inherently mean things can't be reborn.

 

[MasterYoshi]

Rebirth is cool but this planet and life in this universe is finite. Oblivion will still await us all, even if there were such thing as reincarnation

 

[Deleted member 25606]

I apologize.

Click to shrink...

Thank you and and I actually think your a good poster so just trying to point it out and try to correct it. If you were a scumbag I would have just reported and moved on.

 

[Aaronrules380]

He did! LOL - again this is not a gotcha. There is literally a passage in the Bible where God the Father has a conversation with God the Son about how he knows everything he's setting in motion is going to require Jesus to go down to earth and sacrifice himself to create a pathway for humans to enter heaven.

Click to shrink...

I mean yeah, so god is an asshole who inflicts suffering because he explicitly doesn't care that it happens then and thus fails the omnibenevolent metric (or really even the generally benevolent metric if we're being honest)

 

[Royalan]

I mean yeah, so god is an asshole who inflicts suffering because he explicitly doesn't care that it happens then and thus fails the omnibenevolent metric (or really even the generally benevolent metric if we're being honest)

Click to shrink...

Yes! Yes, you're getting it!

 

[Thorn]

God gave us free will but if you worship the wrong religion you burn in agony for eternity.

Great system.

 

[PixelatedDonut]

Folks don't know if consciousness ends at death or if there is another plane of existence, etc. Even if things are dying around us constantly, this doesn't inherently mean things can't be reborn.

Click to shrink...

But that's the inherent problem with the discussion, I didn't say that consciousness ends at death. But I don't have any factual reason to believe that there's some spacial importance placed on "consciousness" that allows you to live forever, but also forget your past. Are being that have it placed on a higher pedestal than others. Like humans aren't the only animals on earth with consciousness. Do they get to be rebirthed and lose all their memories of there past self?

 

[Aaronrules380]

Yes! Yes, you're getting it!

Click to shrink...

I mean I never really argued the idea of a tyrant god was impossible. Or even that an unbiased read on the Bible really paints god as a huge tyrannical asshole if you go in without presupposing god is good

 

[Aaronrules380]

God gave us free will but if you worship the wrong religion you burn in agony for eternity.

Great system.

Click to shrink...

God gave us free will so we could be his equals and not just puppets but also God's will is absolute and anyone arguing against him is evil and going to hell and this is a totally equal and balanced relationship

 

[Man God]

I mean I never really argued the idea of a tyrant god was impossible. Or even that an unbiased read on the Bible really paints god as a huge tyrannical asshole if you go in without presupposing god is good

Click to shrink...

A lot of Christians will clap back by saying that God changed his mind and Jesus was a completely cool dude and when you take an unbiased read of the new testament you find that he is also a bit of a bell end too.

 

[Thordinson]

But that's the inherent problem with the discussion, I didn't say that consciousness ends at death. But I don't have any factual reason to believe that there's some spacial importance placed on "consciousness" that allows you to live forever, but also forget your past. Are being that have it placed on a higher pedestal than others. Like humans aren't the only animals on earth with consciousness. Do they get to be rebirthed and lose all their memories of there past self?

Click to shrink...

Depends on one's beliefs in reincarnation or rebirth. In Buddhism, all conscious beings can be reborn.

 

[Man God]

God gave us free will so we could be his equals and not just puppets but also God's will is absolute and anyone arguing against him is evil and going to hell and this is a totally equal and balanced relationship

Click to shrink...

Free will leads man to do evil things and is what separates man from the angels but angels also rebelled because... Also does that mean people in heaven completely lack free will or can evil still occur in heaven?

 

[Aaronrules380]

A lot of Christians will clap back by saying that God changed his mind and Jesus was a completely cool dude and when you take an unbiased read of the new testament you find that he is also a bit of a bell end too.

Click to shrink...

Honestly I do really wonder what the results would be if we had an experiment where tons of Christian's read the Bible but with names switched out and maybe a few famous quotes subtly altered to keep the meaning but change the exact wording and see what their impressions of the characters are.

 

[Thordinson]

Free will leads man to do evil things and is what separates man from the angels but angels also rebelled because... Also does that mean people in heaven completely lack free will or can evil still occur in heaven?

Click to shrink...

Angels do have free will as well in most Christian beliefs.

 

[Aaronrules380]

A lot of Christians will clap back by saying that God changed his mind and Jesus was a completely cool dude and when you take an unbiased read of the new testament you find that he is also a bit of a bell end too.

Click to shrink...

God doesn't make mistakes, he just changes his mind despite being totally right the first time but also completely right afterward despite being completely diametric viewpoints.

 

[PixelatedDonut]

Depends on one's beliefs in reincarnation or rebirth. In Buddhism, all conscious beings can be reborn.

Click to shrink...

That sounds cool, I'm not as studied with Buddhism tbh. Growing up as a Black American Christianity and Islam where religions I have been super accustomed to. So that a big part that makes me skeptical about any religion. I like discussing this with people becajse lots of religious people just try to shut you down when it gets a little heated.

I just think the answers are so above me, like we are soooooooo fucking small. We're apes that can't even get together and live in peace. So it's become hard for me to accept these grand beliefs without some proof.

 

[Stranger Things]

i believe in a higher power, like some kind of energy form that created everything. but this form doesn't "look down" on human beings or anything like that. it's this infinite energy that surrounds us and basically is part of us. like this invisible electricity that binds all the planets and galaxies and black holes together. if that's god, cool, i'm comfortable with that. but i feel like human culture has pushed the idea of the god into this fantastical overlord who will punish you in hell or grant you heaven. it just seems absurd to me. people think they're the center of the universe and they're above all other lifeforms on this planet, like god is only focusing on their actions, sins and deeds. it just seems small minded and a low vibration idea to me.

but people are free to believe in whatever they want. i grew up in a religious household and still attend prayers and other gatherings when i'm close proximity to my parents/siblings/family. I believe in the "force" and I don't think "praying" to the force will save me from COVID, for example (got covid recently lol). the higher power isn't perfect, it's been making mistakes for billions of years, and we just may be an absolute fluke. But if i'm around my group of childhood friends I'm just going to keep my mouth shut and go with the flow. you can't change people's minds, they have to raise their awareness/consciousness and understandings of the physical universe themselves. I do think there is some good stuff to be learned from books like the Quran or Bible, like family values and comprehending pain/suffering, and being good to your fellow man, woman and child. Moral, values, etc. I feel like ever since COVID hit people's morales have been low and their beliefs have been slipping.

 

[Thordinson]

That sounds cool, I'm not as studied with Buddhism tbh. Growing up as a Black American Christianity and Islam where religions I have been super accustomed to. So that a big part that makes me skeptical about any religion. I like discussing this with people becajse lots of religious people just try to shut you down when it gets a little heated.

I just think the answers are so above me, like we are soooooooo fucking small. We're apes that can't even get together and live in peace. So it's become hard for me to accept these grand beliefs without some proof.

Click to shrink...

I think that's completely fine if one is skeptical about any and all religions. I don't think there is anything wrong with it.

 

[Antrax]

The answer is yes, but doing so would inherently be cedeing their omnipotence. They could also create a task they can't complete but include some caveat that would let them regain their omnipotence at will. Or they could create a task they don't want to complete, and because they'd never do something they don't want to they functionally can't even if it's theoretically possible. They could also redefine "can't" as a concept so that it applies without breaking omnipotence.

Click to shrink...

All of these except the last one just mean the entity isn't omnipotent.

The last one is actually where a lot of theologians land. The concepts of "omnipotent" and "can't" and "powerful" and so on need to be rigorously defined, and it's maybe not possible to do that completely. At least to humans.

Which of course means that the whole "how are you good if you're all powerful?" argument is easily refuted and way too simplistic. You can right entire collections of philosophical works on how to define these words.

 

[LossAversion]

What defines belief? What if I'm firmly in the "maybe" category? No real evidence for, no real evidence against.

Click to shrink...

Regarding Atheism & Agnosticism...

I'm sure this topic will seem unnecessary to a lot of posters but I see a lot of misinformation being spread whenever the topic of religion comes up on ERA. I hope this will come across as purely educational. I just want people to have a better understanding of the differences between atheism...

www.resetera.com

 

[Aaronrules380]

All of these except the last one just mean the entity isn't omnipotent.

The last one is actually where a lot of theologians land. The concepts of "omnipotent" and "can't" and "powerful" and so on need to be rigorously defined, and it's maybe not possible to do that completely. At least to humans.

Which of course means that the whole "how are you good if you're all powerful?" argument is easily refuted and way too simplistic. You can right entire collections of philosophical works on how to define these words.

Click to shrink...

I mean yeah, removing omnipotence is one way to solve the issue. I never once denied that. It's also a solution I only very rarely see self-professed Christians ever use, even when I've literally offered it to their faces.

 

[Clefargle]

Free will.

Click to shrink...

Do you mind telling me what free will has to do with stillbirths and cancer?

I agree but that doesn't mean that a benevolent god must be benevolent to everyone.

Click to shrink...

I said "anyone" not "everyone". A benevolent god who created cancer and watches as any infants are born with it isn't benevolent in any sense of the word.

 

[Sanctuary]

Folks don't know if consciousness ends at death or if there is another plane of existence, etc.

Click to shrink...

Well first you'd need to show that consciousness actually can exist outside of the physical self in the first place, which so far neuroscience seems to very much doubt.
This is also one reason I don't believe in any of the "consciousness uploading" sci-fi that's so popular right now as far as "immortality" is concerned. Even if you were able to map everything about a person's brain, and it was able to be transferred in such a way that whatever system is being used could make a perfect facsimile, that's all it would be. The person who was mapped would still be dead when they die, and the copy would just be a copy for those who are still alive.

Even if things are dying around us constantly, this doesn't inherently mean things can't be reborn.

Click to shrink...

I don't believe in reincarnation in the same way a Hindu might believe in the cycle of samsara, or the way a Buddhist does with kamma, but I do believe that it is very possible, or even likely that we might end up being born again as something, somewhere at any point after death. I don't believe that it means we all have "past lives" though that can be recalled at all, but it's more of an on/off/reset switch. You're something, then you're not, then you're something new. Disregarding a previous consciousness entirely. Meaning, without some kind of soul transmigration.

Then again, it could just be that a black nothingness is all we are aware of after death, but I'd think that we wouldn't actually have any feelings about it at that point anyway.

Rebirth is cool but this planet and life in this universe is finite. Oblivion will still await us all, even if there were such thing as reincarnation

Click to shrink...

What's stopping you from being born in a different one out of the infinite possible ones?

 

[Fodder Aplenty]

81%?? Holy crap thats high. Google says for comparisons sake in the UK

Click to shrink...

Sorry if this has already been answered, but what's the explanation for the uptick in believers in the 16-24 demographic?

 

[roguebubble]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but what's the explanation for the uptick in believers in the 16-24 demographic?

Click to shrink...

There are many factors, I would guess a main reason would be 2nd/3rd gen immigrants since immigrants tend to have a strong religious backgrounds and have larger families so you get an uptick in younger generations. I'm pretty sure I've read articles where the Church of England is on the decline but other religious denominations are growing which would correlate with that. Other than that you could point to 25-39 being the demographic that most influenced during the peak years of Richard Dawkins and edgy atheists like Ricky Gervais but their social clout has since diminished. Or in a world that increasing looking chaotic and fragmented young people are turning to stability and community offered by religion.

 

[Thordinson]

Do you mind telling me what free will has to do with stillbirths and cancer?

I said "anyone" not "everyone". A benevolent god who created cancer and watches as any infants are born with it isn't benevolent in any sense of the word.

Click to shrink...

My mistake, friend. I read it wrong.

I believe the Christian argument is not that God created cancer. It is simply a condition of life that He created.

Well first you'd need to show that consciousness actually can exist outside of the physical self in the first place, which so far neuroscience seems to very much doubt.
This is also one reason I don't believe in any of the "consciousness uploading" sci-fi that's so popular right now as far as "immortality" is concerned. Even if you were able to map everything about a person's brain, and it was able to be transferred in such a way that whatever system is being used could make a perfect facsimile, that's all it would be. The person who was mapped would still be dead when they die, and the copy would just be a copy for those who are still alive.

Click to shrink...

Depends on how one defines consciousness, yes? Though, one doesn't have to show anything for folks to believe something haha.

 

[EndlessSummer]

That's the new low?That's still extremely high, imo.

 

[strudelkuchen]

Jesus Christ.

 

[Slacker247]

That's higher than I thought. Thought everyone was a God bashing person lately, but I guess that's just Era and other similar pockets of the web like it.

Also, I love God myself and am a firm believer.

 

[CKDexterHaven]

Needs to be lower.

 

[NekoNeko]

That's insanely higher than I thought it'd be.

Click to shrink...

yeah wtf.

 

[Kazooie]

if god (as Christians conceive of him) exists I want somebody to explain the state of the world right now

Click to shrink...

The guy who killed almost all living beings out of spite, tortured the Egyptians an killed first borns for disobediance that he caused himself, demands gays to be stoned, sets prices for slaves and demands the are obedient, who lets y a young woman be raped to satisfy crazy people in order to have a good time playing a traveller? If Yahweh existed, our world would probably be inexplicably too good.

81% as an all time low is terrible to be honest.

 

[Man God]

1/5 is pretty good all things considered. America was founded by a whooole lot of religious zealots after all.

 

[Baji Boxer]

That's the new low?That's still extremely high, imo.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, though I think there's a fair number that just say it with little thought, lie to be part of the in group, or their concept of god is so vague as to be meaningless. A lot of people would probably behave a bit differently if they actually thought there was an omnipotent omnipresent perfect being watching their every move.

 

[nekkid]

I'm not arrogant enough to say I know one way or the other. Where's my option for that?

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

My belief in Bongo the God of Gravity remains as steadfast now as in the past.

 

[Garp TXB]

My belief in Bongo the God of Gravity remains as steadfast now as in the past.

Click to shrink...

How does one go about defying Bongo?

 

[AlgusUnderdunk]

How does one go about defying Bongo?

Click to shrink...

Levity.

 

[Kazooie]

It doesn't relate to this article, but it does relate to the inevitability of this topic becoming another "atheists and religious people argue about the scientific and philosophic possibilities of an omnipotent and loving god using arguments that are at most found in first/second year undergraduate theology/philosophy classes" topic that have plagued the off topic sections of geek space forums since the goddamn 90s.

Click to shrink...

The existence of a god is not a theological matter; theology has no proper methods to proof anything whatsoever. It is pretty clearly a matter natural sciences (physics, and if a god were to exist, possibly a new branch of biology). The argument brought forth regarding the omnipotency I think is in principle sound, but of course this does not prove or disprove the existence of a god or Yahweh in particular. Besides the arguments brought forth already, there are other options that are probably more applicable:
- omnipotent does not mean "can do everything imaginable" but "can do everything that can in principle be done according to e.g. natural laws that may themselves be immutable
- Yahweh has a different opinion of what is good
- There may be a notion of entertainment involved. An absolutely perfect world may be boring to a creator of such world. Having his creatures fight and suffer may make the whole venture worthwhile in the first place. Just think of how people go aboiut when they make up stories; rarely is it just a perfect utopia.

Neither of those points have any connection to the question of whether Yahweh exists.

 

[Kazooie]

I'm not arrogant enough to say I know one way or the other. Where's my option for that?

Click to shrink...

It's called agnostic and your issue comes down to the matter of distinction between the following two questions:
1. Do you believe in the existence of a god?
2. Do you believe no god exists?
Possible answer combinations are:
(yes, no), (no, yes) and (no, no). You are an atheist, specifically an agnostic if your answer to the first question is no. For instance, my position is:
(no, yes*) with * meaning: It is in principle possible that a higher being exists. The specific gods invented by humans such as Yahweh, Zeus or Thor do almost certainly not exist though.

 

[Josh5890]

I voted yes. I have plenty of issues with regards to organized religion, and I absolutely hate how the right has weaponized most Christian sectors in this country (although to be fair they did that to themselves), but I truly believe that a higher power exists and I identify as Catholic.

I wished that everyone would respect someone's choice as to whether or not the believe in God or practice a religion, but history has shown us that often is not the case.

 

[deadman322]

im pretty sure im god, so i selected yes.

 

[SpaceCrystal]

I used to believe in that bullshit. Not anymore, & especially not the cruel, "Christian" God from the Bible.

When I was in my mid-30's, I started having doubts & started feeling uneasy about going to church. Then about three years later, I started doing research about

• The Bible,
• Christianity,
• Religion in general,
• Religion's awful past history of violence of wars, genocide, etc. & physically abusing, molesting & raping children,
• Learning & studying about the Big Bang, Science & Evolution,

All of these have contributed to me despising Christianity, churches & religion entirely. I wasn't even a strong Christian in the first place. The Bible, Quran, religion, churches, are entirely manipulative. They don't want anyone to develop critical thinking or be open-minded. Since then, I stopped with the following:

• Praying before I eat meals,
• Stopped reading the Bible,
• Stopped attending churches,
• Stopped listening to Christian &/or Gospel music (which is emotionally manipulative in itself), &
• Refused to take part in Bible Studies in which my mother & aunt does whenever my 1st cousin & her husband has it every Tuesday night.

Also, the Bible, Quran, God, Satan, Heaven, Hell, Sin, Angels, Demons, Souls/Spirits, etc.? They're man-made concepts & copouts designed by men to indoctrinate, control & manipulate children & gullible people. They're all imaginary, fantasy, fiction. They're as real as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny & the Tooth Fairy are.

The reasons that church & youth leaders & televangelists do this, is to have their congregations stay inside of their churches or wherever so that church leaders, etc. can continue to grift their congregations of their money in order to continue to fund their lavish lifestyles, especially megachurches & televangelists. Churches are nothing more than businesses. Church leaders, youth leaders & televangelists don't give a damn about anyone but two things: Children & money.

Technically, biologically & scientifically, we're all animals in whom we had originated from Africa 300,000 years ago, before we've migrated onto other countries. That's how we all came to be. Google either "Human Evolution," "Homo Sapiens" or "Where did humans come from?".

And what happens to animals when they die? They cease to exist. And since all of us human beings are animals as well, the same will happen to all of us, too. We are all made of atoms, cells, energy, molecules, etc. We never had consciousness, etc. before we were all born, & we won't have them after we die. As much as I like to believe in reincarnation &/or rebirth, most signs are pointing to what I'm saying.

That is why everyone here on this planet must live their lives to the fullest, like it's your last day, & not let anyone control & manipulate you with such BS.

 

[Nakenorm]

That's way higher than I thought

 

[SinnyIndonesian]

Joking aside, I do have one question. This is not a gotcha or anything, I genuinely want to know: How do Christians justify the fact that the Bible that they know of has been heavily revised and reedited over time? I assume they don't all believe that the "Word of God" were given as is somehow. I know they definitely have an answer for that(they always do), but I just never actually come across this.

 

[SpaceCrystal]

Edited.

 

[Laughing Banana]

There are some uses for religion, yeah. I know for a fact that many people are only "good" because they believe in religion, karma, and all that. Take that belief away, and who knows what kind of monsters they'd become?

Click to shrink...

Holy *shit* dude that is incredibly judgmental of you, like you are seeing these people from a position that you consider yourself sitting in the high abode above theirs.

You know *for a fact* that *many* religious people are secretly *monsters"? Like damn. Good for you for not being secretly a monster, I guess?