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Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
My only experience with bird owners have been people like my parents that owned parrots. I've never seen a full time caged parrot but they really seem to prefer sitting on top of their cages as opposed to wondering around too much. It's kinda like they recognize that their cage is their "home" and seem to feel safe there.

One time our parrot got outside somehow and immediately started waddling back to the door like it was going "nope nope nope". Definitely didn't like being outside.

The thing with parrots though is that they need lots and lots of attention and affection to be at their best. It's a very demanding time commitment.

Absolutely no clue about smaller birds.
Well yeah cause the parrot has everything it needs within a few feet of it at all times.


I think people are missing the point of why birds fly so much; they have to do things like migration and fly around hunting for food for survival. If a human is providing food, all season shelter, and companionship...the bird really doesn't need to fly very far.

Wing clipping and having a bird always caged seems pretty cruel to me, but otherwise I think responsible, caring bird ownership is probably fine.
 
OP
OP
Combo

Combo

Banned
Jan 8, 2019
2,437
Prey-catching behavior is called a prey drive. Dogs can't responsibly be allowed to act out their prey drive because it leads to mauling other pets. Cats (who aren't working cats performing pest control) can't responsibly be allowed to act out their prey drive because it's ecologically harmful (and it's quite bad for the lifespan of cats to be allowed to roam). You can substitute with toys and play, but providing a limited facsimile of a natural behavior is exactly why you're saying confining birds is evil.
I have no knowledge about the ecological harm. I can't comment about it. But I did live in Africa as a kid and pet cats there used to hunt cockroaches in the house!

Anyhow if people want to argue that keeping cats and dogs is bad, it doesn't justify doing even worse with caged birds.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
I have no knowledge about the ecological harm. I can't comment about it. But I did live in Africa as a kid and pet cats there used to hunt cockroaches in the house!

Anyhow if people want to argue that keeping cats and dogs is bad, it doesn't justify doing even worse with caged birds.
Why is it worse? You call it a no-brainer but you haven't actually explained a reason in this thread why keeping a bird in a cage or a house is evil.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
I guess I'm not so sure. The main reason birds fly so much is for food and making/finding shelter right? Those are provided for. Like I have lots of smaller birds in my neighborhood that probably don't stray all that far from my house because I give them bird seed (and so do a lot of other people).

Is bird seed bad?

I don't have birds and I'd never keep like a large bird. But I've thought about having a couple parakeets and yeah I'd let them hang out in the house outside the cage.

When I was a kid we had some and they seemed happy.
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
Lots of birds kept as pets, especially parrots, crave social contact and form extremely close bonds with their owners, and being away from them causes distress. While the conversation on the ethics of owning animals is an important one, we need to also consider that our conceptions of freedom can't always be neatly projected onto these animals.
 

Alric

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,947
Avid Avian owner here, I'm not here to change your mind but I have several rescues that I love and give all the attention in the world to. Birds shouldn't be kept constantly in cages but they should have a nice sized one with lots of things to keep them occupied in. Birds like wandering said are very social animals and crave interactions with others more so than cats or dogs. Luckily my wife works from home and we have settled completely into the role of never taking a vacation away from our house now that we have them.
We take them out with us either in their cage or with a flight harness to get some good outside sun. They eat an amazing variety of foods (seed, peelets, fruits, vegetables, sprouts, and birdie bread). Bird as pets / companions absolutely need lots of time out of their cage and as much interaction with you as possible.

Seriously, if there is anyone in this thread thinking about it every state / country has so many avian rescues with birds that need a forever home and someone that is willing to dedicate the rest of their lives with them. They absolutely deserve only the best.

Poogie our Cockatiel that suffers from a form of Rickets and severe egg binding that has led us to give her Lupron Implants to reduce her horomones that have absolutely saved her life.

61147566_2681454761883121_2735560890974732288_o.jpg

Mochi a 1 legged Parrotlet that we rescued and unfortunately passed last year. He spent the first few years in a cage never being handled until we adopted him and gave him so much love until he passed at home with us.

27983055_1980351031993501_8202089120067009366_o.jpg


And several more that spend each day enjoying the comforts of our home with us.

66601328_2766738016688128_2358119740527869952_n.jpg
 

SixPointEight

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,285
Sorry you feel that way about me OP

but my bird goes where the fuck he wants so long as it's inside the house. Which is no different than humans right now so *shrug*
 

Wood Man

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,449
For me I just don't like birds in general. I'd never want to have one as a pet. Every pet bird I've come into contact with were mean little fuckers who bite the hell out of me. Ex girlfriend had a bird and that thing hated me. But I hear that's how some birds are, they love one person and hate everyone else.

I have a neighbor who has a couple birds. They're constantly squawking.
 
For me I just don't like birds in general. I'd never want to have one as a pet. Every pet bird I've come into contact with were mean little fuckers who bite the hell out of me. Ex girlfriend had a bird and that thing hated me. But I hear that's how some birds are, they love one person and hate everyone else.

I have a neighbor who has a couple birds. They're constantly squawking.
I mean you where mating with his lifemate so.... lol
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,847
We let my bird hang out in the house from time to time. While he was out we left his cage door open and tied a cloth thing around the bottom so he could get back in.

As long as you kept track of him, kept the doors/windows closed, and made sure he didn't shit on absolutely everything it was was fine.
 

Svearik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
190
Atlanta
We let my bird hang out in the house from time to time. While he was out we left his cage door open and tied a cloth thing around the bottom so he could get back in.

As long as you kept track of him, kept the doors/windows closed, and made sure he didn't shit on absolutely everything it was was fine.

I've always been curious about this. Don't they shit like constantly? Wouldn't you have bird shit all over your house?
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,847
I've always been curious about this. Don't they shit like constantly? Wouldn't you have bird shit all over your house?
Depends on the bird. My parakeet preferred to stay in/around his cage so if he shat it was in that general area and it wasn't that hard to clean. He didn't go unwatched while out and about though so it's not like I had to worry about getting randomly shat on.
 

2PiR

alt account
Banned
Aug 28, 2019
978
I agree with you OP except if you think about it dogs/cats or basically keeping any pet is kind of selfish. But people just draw the moral line where its convenient for them. Like you did, where birds are not okay but dogs, cats are fine. Why is that? you are separating a puppy from their siblings, parents, just so you can have it for yourself. You leave them alone at home during workdays, you can't take them everywhere with you. They are not allowed to go anywhere without you. They are technically just there for your amusement.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,298
new jersey
If you give your cat a bell and aren't anywhere near a forest/protected park, is it that bad?
Personally, I'm anti-outdoor cat. I prefer to keep my cats inside because I get super paranoid about what may happen to them. I don't trust my cat to go outside of the house alone. Someone might run it over, kill it, or the area I'm in, a wild animal may harm him. Also indoor cats tend to live much longer.
 

R0b1n

Member
Jun 29, 2018
7,787
When my birds get outside they don't fly much, they usually land on one tree or a random balcony nearby and fly back after they get bored. I have tried free-flight training and the results are the same. Still, if you keep your bird caged the majority of the time you shouldn't own one

Kinda related, but you can quite easily tell if a bird is unhappy/bored, even the small ones

I guess I'm not so sure. The main reason birds fly so much is for food and making/finding shelter right? Those are provided for. Like I have lots of smaller birds in my neighborhood that probably don't stray all that far from my house because I give them bird seed (and so do a lot of other people).

Is bird seed bad?

I don't have birds and I'd never keep like a large bird. But I've thought about having a couple parakeets and yeah I'd let them hang out in the house outside the cage.

When I was a kid we had some and they seemed happy.
Seeds are absolutely terrible for birds as a main diet, but if they're wild most don't live long enough to get stuff like fatty liver disease in the long run anyway.
 
This is sort of an end-user versus supplier issue (separate from the issue of general quality of life for pet birds), but anybody who finds a bird for sale in a pet store and wants to buy it and give it a good home isn't imprisoning the thing. A domesticated bird cannot be released into the wild, at that point it needs somebody to look after it.
 

StallionDan

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,705
People with bird pets tend to let them out the cage a lot. In the evening they usually need a cover over the cage to sleep, they not getting that being 'free' in the house.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,698
Why is it worse? You call it a no-brainer but you haven't actually explained a reason in this thread why keeping a bird in a cage or a house is evil.

I'd assume its much worse because they don't get to do what most birds do, which is fly, as well as being a much much smaller enclosure than cats and dogs are generally afforded.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
I'm not a fan of any pets, but I don't understand you "fighting the urge not to think less of someone"? that seems a bigger issue than having a parrot.
 

RisingStar

Banned
Oct 8, 2019
4,849
Most bird owners let them out of their cage to move about but the notion of freedom = flying everywhere is such a human perspective imo. Birds often fly to migrate and to hunt or find shelter. If all those components are provided for them, they don't need to spread their wings as much. It's kind of like us during quarantine, we realized there are quite a few derivative activities we can live without or minimize.

That being said, there are stories of wing clipping which is awful. On another note about cats, I'm definitely anti outdoor cat as I lost my cat due to her being addicted to going out. She definitely didn't just stay in our area, one time she did make it back was when she was spotted 40 minutes away by walk from my place and my friend called me to let me know where she was. We tried to limit her outings but eventually she would sneak out whenever she wanted and at some point, just never came back home.

I've heard cats are horrible for local fauna and tend to live happier and longer indoors if you care for them. I guess our mistake was giving it too much freedom and not training her enough. It wasn't like she was a kitten either, 5 years of this for loads of pain.
 

AnansiThePersona

Started a revolution but the mic was unplugged
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,682
Just imagine all the birds are serial killers who were reincarnated to become birds who have to be caged the rest of their lives. That might help
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,588
So are dogs the only non-problematic pet then?
Dogs kill livestock and will maul other animals for fun, they can also attack people. I remember reading a horrific news story about a couple dogs that got loose and broke into somebody's back yard with a big rabbit hutch. By the tme they were done with their fun the yard was covered in bloody bits from a half dozen bunnies.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,698
Dogs kill livestock and will maul other animals for fun, they can also attack people. I remember reading a horrific news story about a couple dogs that got loose and broke into somebody's back yard with a big rabbit hutch. By the tme they were done with their fun the yard was covered in bloody bits from a half dozen bunnies.

My sisters pet rabbit died to our neighbors dog and its one of the most traumatic experiences she can recall.
 

hobblygobbly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,572
NORDFRIESLAND, DEUTSCHLAND
caged birds are cruelty, agreed

and so are "house cats" and "house dogs".

the bunch of shit people have cooked up to justify it like "genetics" is bullshit. people also get this notion because it's an observation of a result from conditioning. no bird, cat, or dog have genetic characteristics to being "house" animals that "need to maintain human contact all the time". It's conditioning. people conflate genetic characteristics like loyalty of for example a labrador or retriever to this bullshit as well.

it's animal abuse.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
7,484

Interestingly, here in the UK the RSPB state that while cats do of course kill lots a birds (and other prey animals) there is no real evidence that this causes bird populations to decline. They suggest it's more down to habitat loss and that cat predation is only likely a factor in a declining bird population if you and your cat live near a scarce habitat where a specific type of bird can be found.

Activities

Activities

I don't agree with keeping birds in cages (as per OP), but tangentially I also don't really believe in keeping an obviously outdoor animal like a cat shut away in a flat or house. I don't really get on with the idea of an indoor only cat.
 

Deleted member 31133

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
4,155
caged birds are cruelty, agreed

and so are "house cats" and "house dogs".

the bunch of shit people have cooked up to justify it like "genetics" is bullshit. people also get this notion because it's an observation of a result from conditioning. no bird, cat, or dog have genetic characteristics to being "house" animals that "need to maintain human contact all the time". It's conditioning. people conflate genetic characteristics like loyalty of for example a labrador or retriever to this bullshit as well.

it's animal abuse.

When you say "house" cats and dogs, are you referring to people who own cats and dogs and don't let them outside, or just people who own these animals in general?
 

Kaswa101

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,748
As someone who follows the "birb" scene quite closely, there is a shockingly large number of people in this thread who are clearly uneducated about the care of birds.

Also, anyone who acts as a caregiver to a rescued animal is a hero in my books :)
 

hobblygobbly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,572
NORDFRIESLAND, DEUTSCHLAND
When you say "house" cats and dogs, are you referring to people who own cats and dogs and don't let them outside, or just people who own these animals in general?
people who don't let them out. i have heard and known people that keep for e.g. cats indoors and make the effort that their home is secured that they can never get outside, and they can maybe count on one hand how many times they've been outside. also dogs who live in apartments all day alone, and get walked once a day (if lucky) for 30 minutes to an hour isn't enough at all either, some people don't do it for days, especially smaller dogs like mops
 

HeavenlyOne

The Fallen
Nov 30, 2017
2,358
Your heart
I never liked the idea of keeping animals that could fly caged up, thinking it was cruel, but then I took ownership of my sisters canary when she moved away (just like she did when his original owners moved).

I bought him a much larger cage that sits next to my bedroom window. I open the cage in the mornings when I take off his cover, and close it again when he puts himself to when when the sun goes down. During the day he has free reign of both my bedroom and office, but he still spends much of the day in (or on) his cage. Canaries don't care for human contact, but he likes to stay close and keep an eye on what I'm up to when I', doing his weekly cage clean.

Cruelty would be to release him outside only to have him immediately killed by any of the much larger local birds. Giving him his "freedom" would be strictly for my benefit, not his.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,513
Isn't a Klingon in Starfleet a caged bird in a way?
 

Flandy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,445
Avid Avian owner here, I'm not here to change your mind but I have several rescues that I love and give all the attention in the world to. Birds shouldn't be kept constantly in cages but they should have a nice sized one with lots of things to keep them occupied in. Birds like wandering said are very social animals and crave interactions with others more so than cats or dogs. Luckily my wife works from home and we have settled completely into the role of never taking a vacation away from our house now that we have them.
We take them out with us either in their cage or with a flight harness to get some good outside sun. They eat an amazing variety of foods (seed, peelets, fruits, vegetables, sprouts, and birdie bread). Bird as pets / companions absolutely need lots of time out of their cage and as much interaction with you as possible.

Seriously, if there is anyone in this thread thinking about it every state / country has so many avian rescues with birds that need a forever home and someone that is willing to dedicate the rest of their lives with them. They absolutely deserve only the best.

Poogie our Cockatiel that suffers from a form of Rickets and severe egg binding that has led us to give her Lupron Implants to reduce her horomones that have absolutely saved her life.

61147566_2681454761883121_2735560890974732288_o.jpg

Mochi a 1 legged Parrotlet that we rescued and unfortunately passed last year. He spent the first few years in a cage never being handled until we adopted him and gave him so much love until he passed at home with us.

27983055_1980351031993501_8202089120067009366_o.jpg


And several more that spend each day enjoying the comforts of our home with us.

66601328_2766738016688128_2358119740527869952_n.jpg

That second photo is really wholesome
 
Mar 23, 2018
2,654
Our family got some birds that arrived flying to our home.

We put it on notice, but nobody replied/wanted the bird. Then, we informed ourselves and found out that these species could were not made to, well, be freed in the city so we just kept it. Then, another one came by and we had to keep it, too; this new bird was flying during almost a whole week, coming and "stealing" our bird's food and sleeping on a tree near by, so we catched it, as we were moving and it wouldn't have food. It turns out that some are better off living at home than flying around the city, so both are still with us. And if another one comes by... I guess we'll just have to make room or look for someone who can keep it.

agapornis-juntos.jpg
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
It's a bit different though. Cats you can let outside (and they'll tend to stay in a very small area) dogs you can take for walks.
What's a "small" area to you? Some cats have a range of a kilometer, which while not huge is way bigger than the average home. Walking a dog is good but I'm sure most people take them on walks that are far smaller than a wild dog's range.

I really want to become a falconer and have an owl but like you have trouble reconciling the idea of taking a flying animal and, kinda keeping them from flying. But that's partly me assigning a higher value of majesty to flight than walking, when in reality an animals mode of transportation is somewhat irrelevant, swim, slither, fly, walk, in the end it's kinda all the same shit, different means to occur the same end. One shouldn't be more special than another.

I imagine if we flew flying wouldn't have any special meaning to us.

So I dunno. I guess I'm of the mind that there really isn't a right answer. I don't know if people are cruel or not to these animals, I see lots of people with dogs, cats or even owls and other birds that have very good relationships. I find it hard to really find anything wrong with an animal that finds a person and decides to stay with that person by chance so I guess the real ick factor is with buying and breeding to me?

I think many birds don't need to fly large distances once you remove food and safety from the equation, much like a cat or dog, so I assume it's as ethical, or unethical, as having a cat or dog.
 

Edge

A King's Landing
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,012
Celle, Germany
It's all about how something, or someone even, grows up.

If the bird in this case always only had his cage and living room to fly around then he doesn't know anything else and doesn't miss anything else.
 

THEVOID

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
22,861
Aren't bells dangerous to cats? They cause anxiety or something.

Yes, would you want a bell on you 24/7? Bells has never proven to be effective in stopping Cats from killing prey. Cats work around the noise anyways. In most cases I've seen is Cat owners put a bell on them because it's cute, it's not.
 

Seirith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,311
Don't parrots live for a long time? Putting any animal in a cage is fucked up, even more so for 50 plus years.

My parents inheritied my grandmother's African Gray which can live for up to 75 years in captivity. In reality, he could possibly outlive my parents and even me. He does have a cage and he loves being in it and playing with all his toys but if my parents are home, he is out and with them on one of his two massive play stands. He has one in the kitchen and one in their office where both my parents use the computer and have an eBay business. He can fly but never does and is given attention all day long. If he is not on his play stand, he is on his cage with the door open and he can go in and out as he pleases. He is only in his cage if my parents are gone for long periods of time which does not happen often as they are retired and at night to sleep.
 

Seirith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,311
caged birds are cruelty, agreed

and so are "house cats" and "house dogs".

the bunch of shit people have cooked up to justify it like "genetics" is bullshit. people also get this notion because it's an observation of a result from conditioning. no bird, cat, or dog have genetic characteristics to being "house" animals that "need to maintain human contact all the time". It's conditioning. people conflate genetic characteristics like loyalty of for example a labrador or retriever to this bullshit as well.

it's animal abuse.

Keeping a cat/cat inside where it is safe from larger/wild animals, getting hit by a car, getting in a fight with other animals etc is animal abuse?
 

JLP101

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,745
I grew up with a budgie for 18 years :P. We couldn't keep him in his cage, he loved to fly all over the house. I miss that guy.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,855
My friend has a bird from before she went vegan. Once she realised how much it must suck for the bird she basically let it take over her house and now it has free reign. It once escaped but the friend managed to coax it back home so it mustn't be too bad living in the house.

Now the owl cafés and similar in Japan can all go fuck themselves.
 
OP
OP
Combo

Combo

Banned
Jan 8, 2019
2,437

It's not like I don't have some of the concerns that you highlighted, but I didn't want to make this thread about that. How are you going to convince people not to put birds in cages if you say keeping all pets is cruelty? I don't doubt that there is less ambiguity and uncertainty over the former. People can argue that a dog doesn't feel the same amount of happiness with its owner than it does with its own kind. Others may disagree with them. But it's hard to contend that a bird in a cage is not cruel.

This thread wasn't even about trying to argue about the cruelty of caged birds, rather I wanted to know if I was being over judgmental.