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Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Most polls on rejoining/staying out of the EU are still basically 50/50, often leaning towards staying out.

Obviously the most attention grabbing stories are those of 'Fisherman who voted leave now loses business' or other people directly negatively impacted by their own vote - but there is no sign that public opinion has changed significantly.
It's entirely possible that people still want to be out of the EU because of the dream they were sold for years and have convinced themselves is possibility, but now blame the government for not being able to deliver on it rather than selling it to them in the first place. The Murdoch and DMG press certainly aren't going to say that the dream itself was bullshit after selling it for years and calling opposition to it and examination of it tantamount to treachery at one point either.

I'm not trying to defend the position, but I feel for many the view is that 'if an extra 20p for my ham, egg and chips is the price to pay to own the Remainers, then it's a price worth paying'.
Yeah, I'm sure there's an element of clinging to a position people have been wedded to after a bitter, lengthy national argument too. That tenacity is understandable, even if it's cutting off their nose to spite their face. I do think at the moment it's a case of baseless optimism of 'this is a short term launch error, it will get better if we cling on and see it though!' though. As opposed to the realisation that a) small businesses are already flagging up the massive increased costs for any kind of trade with the dozens of our closest neighbours that sit on our only road link. B) multinationals started leaving years ago. C) The omnishambles that is the border's administration is not just teething errors, it's the result of visable incompetence and refusal to admit the consequences by government over a period of years, and D) the massive increased shipping costs on everything are not a short-term thing, they are the standard for being outside the trade body we sit next to the heart of and run much our commerce through, making it ridiculous to not be on it's management body. That's why Tories are now banging on about 'eat local', as if for a wealthy country in 2021, that's the same standard of living as other European countries that aren't being encouraged to only eat what's grown in their borders, but to trade freely and openly with their neighbours. None of these were unforseeable, or secrets only held by a liberal elite of remoaners so we could say 'I told you so' afterwards. This was common knowledge easily available to anyone that didn't only read the Tory press and PR. Plenty of people had blinkers on and still do.
 
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Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,322
Reminds me of thinking that less people engaging in Democratic process is better because it becomes more controllable and you can more easily get result(s) you need or want.

When answer should be education of voting populace with actual facts instead of hot steaming piles of pure bullshit amplified by media.
Good luck educating the general population on highly complex issues like international trade, inter governance and taxation schemes
 

Wubby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,857
Japan!
I wonder what car model it was he bought... If it was from Germany maybe a Revell kit?


There were some changes from January. I think overseas sellers are supposed to collect the VAT tax on behalf of the UK and submit it to the UK 4 times a year (!!!). Basically requiring overseas sellers to do the work of a british tax agent for free. Australia started it first and New Zealand does it too. Edit: seems the rule is for orders less than 135 pounds. Over that amount they will be collected as normal in the UK.

I know a few small companies who flat out refuse to sell to customers in the UK now because of this. One of them posted this to their site:

"Due to the recent decision in the UK to make shippers collect a 20% VAT tax for packages sent to the UK and pay it quarterly, we regret that we have no choice other than to suspend any further sales to the UK. Current open orders will be filled and shipped, and we hope for the best for their safe delivery. This is a very unfortunate decision by the UK, and we wish we had a way to avoid it. We have many great customers in the UK, and we will miss you all. If you are a citizen of the UK please plead with your lawmakers to change this unfair tax collection."
 
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Symphony

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,361
one of my coworker is Uk based. He's also a crazy sim racing player. He recently ordered a premium carbon paddle module for his Fanatec wheel. Unfortunately for him, if gaming wheels or similar are free of import taxes in UK, that's apparently very different for carbon made products with no electronics in it (might be classified as tools or something like that ?). Paddle cost 180e, he had 70£ of custom taxes + extra fees from UPS so in the end it almost double the cost (and of course it took 3 weeks to be delivered instead of a few days...).

He was 100% against brexit but wasn't at all aware about the level of import taxes this was going to cost (was expecting some, but not that high). He feels like he was fucked not once, but twice without his consent...
See, even though I'm very used to dealing with import fees already due to importing a fair amount of hobby stuff from Japan and the US, and I knew we'd be subject to an utterly miserable situation post-Brexit in terms of imports and exports, at worst I expected the same tariffs would apply as to the rest of the world. So your usual 20% VAT, then customs duty only if the total value is super high and the duty itself is over a certain amount (I forget the actual numbers as I've never paid duty), then the usual static courier handling fee shenanigans. Yet the way this has all panned out I'm seeing people reporting they are paying almost 50% of the value of the item in fees, because rather than 20% plus a static £8-12 fee everyone now gets slapped with some other scaling fee that literally nobody knows about. And it is impossible to find any clear info on government websites about the whole situation (because of course it is).

I don't have any sympathy for these people who are whining that the sellers didn't tell them or they didn't expect any of this, because it clearly shows they didn't put even the most minute amount of effort about finding out what Brexit would mean in reality before they put their X in the box. But I do feel bad for people who expected they'd be getting fees about the same as from other countries and yet the reality has ended up significantly worse, with no clear indication why.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,285
No matter what else, but this:

"There was no mention of it on the seller's site."

is almost certainly not true. There would have 100% been a mention somewhere in the small print during checkout process or in T&Cs that the buyer is responsible for import duties.

Leopards eating people's faces I guess.

This is true, but what people expected was a probably a readable, noticeable warning somewhere close to checkout/buying, and honestly, since this is a big and recent change to imports, stores should definitely try to warn customers before purchases.
 
OP
OP
NullPointerException
Oct 27, 2017
2,902
Scotland
I wonder what car model it was he bought... If it was from Germany maybe a Revell kit?

I'm no car model expert but the person does have a picture of a few cars in his collection in the BBC article.

_116617227_img_2550-002.jpg


Looks like retro collectibles. Are they Revell?
 

signal

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40,199
Is this also happening for items from the UK to Germany? I just paid 16€ fees for a shirt I got, guess that could explain it 🤔
 
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OP
OP
NullPointerException
Oct 27, 2017
2,902
Scotland
Is this also happening for items from the UK to Germany? I just paid 16€ fees for a shirt I got, guess that. could explain it 🤔

Yes. The article mentions one case similar to what you are going through. Although, given your item is low in price then it might be fine.

Jemima Brown ordered a £150 pair of boots from a UK company to be delivered to her home in Auvergne, France.
"A week later I received an email from La Poste telling me that when the parcel was delivered it would only be handed over if I paid the €88 [£78] import duty," she says.
The documentation said it was €43 for VAT, €30 for customs tariffs, and €15 handling fees.
She rang the company which said she could reject the delivery and receive a full refund.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
Common sense let alone broad facts would tell you this was going to happen. I don't have sympathy for people that voted for it, hits them personally is why it annoys them not that Brexit is a bad thing, they would gladly stil accept it all otherwise. You probably couldn't reverse it because that xenephobic, anti EU just because core belief will rear it's head every time. Stubbornness and hate will see people through and they'll probably vote the Tories again with their misplaced anger.
 

Mr Eric

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,141
Yes. The article mentions one case similar to what you are going through. Although, given your item is low in price then it might be fine.

yes, it works both ways. When browsing amazon.co.uk I can see a disclaimer on every product page (I'm in continental EU) :

Please Note:
P
rice shown includes UK VAT. If your shipping address is outside UK, VAT may vary or an import fee deposit may be collected at checkout.
Learn more about VAT here. Learn more about Import fee deposit here.
 

Vlodril

Member
Dec 18, 2017
280
Yea i am trying to buy a gift for my brother (oculus quest 2) and i can't find any in europe. Amazon.co.uk has it and pretty cheaply but on the end price there is a 72 euro import fee! Damn that is costly.
 

MarcelloF

Member
Dec 9, 2020
7,477
It sucks. I generally import my games from the UK to avoid the stupid USK symbol and often get slightly cheaper games.

There's probably not a single person suffering more than me right now :'(((
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,078
yes, it works both ways. When browsing amazon.co.uk I can see a disclaimer on every product page (I'm in continental EU) :

Yup, punishes UK retailers and consumers. :D

With a lesser effect on EU retailers/consumers (because they've still got a much bigger market to fall back on).
 

Rick44-4

Member
Oct 8, 2020
1,319
Most of these folks voted for the hypothetical "Britain keeps all the benefits that EU member states enjoy - i.e. Britains being free to travel and toll free trade - while also being able to restrict who (i.e which foreigners) enters Britain, and also - somehow - have reduced (or no) payments towards the EU"-deal BREXIT.

The "have your cake and eat it too" Brexit.
For all I slag off America, we have a lot of dumb people or their so malicious they have foreigners so much, they'll fuck the country to get rid of them.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,999
I have no sympathy for this. Not only a majority of voters voted for Brexit, but then again they doubled down on it by voting into power a government that would make sure the make the worst possible Brexit deal out of it.

So technically the British (mostly English) voters voted twice to make their own life worse.
 

Simon21

Member
Apr 25, 2018
1,134
I have no sympathy for this. Not only a majority of voters voted for Brexit, but then again they doubled down on it by voting into power a government that would make sure the make the worst possible Brexit deal out of it.

So technically the British (mostly English) voters voted twice to make their own life worse.

More people combined voted for Labour + SNP + Lib Dems + Greens than voted Tory + Brexit Party. Your issue seems to be more with FPTP than the voters.
 
Jun 20, 2018
1,269
In a selfish way, this was one of the things I felt would impact me most. Ordering from the US is a pain as you can quite easily end up paying double what an item costs. Brexit not only added loads of tax, and extra charges, but also tanked the pound which made things from other places more expensive to begin with. I know Brexit was about far more important things than this, but this was something I could easily see the way I'd be effected directly.
 

Kain

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
7,604
Most of these folks voted for the hypothetical "Britain keeps all the benefits that EU member states enjoy - i.e. Britains being free to travel and toll free trade - while also being able to restrict who (i.e which foreigners) enters Britain, and also - somehow - have reduced (or no) payments towards the EU"-deal BREXIT.

The "have your cake and eat it too" Brexit.

That's what happens when fake news and populism are so rampant. Any critical thinking person would know that's impossible.

I wish I could only blame those UKIP fuckers and the like, but disinformation goes both ways: the receiver has to be receptive to the bullshit.
 
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AlwaysSalty

The Fallen
Nov 12, 2017
1,442
Ah yes, the consequences of voting against your own best interests, no one could have seen this predictable problem happening.
Poor/non-white/woman/gay people vote Republican all the time in the US. Hell we voted a known thief and liar into office. Voting against your own interest seems to be something people all around the world do regularly.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,890
Columbia, SC
When answer should be education of voting populace with actual facts instead of hot steaming piles of pure bullshit amplified by media.

This is really always the answer. You can't bullshit an educated populace with some song and dance a few catchy soundbites. People are intentionally and systematically kept ignorant of how shit works time and time again. Folks who actually go out of their way to find out how things work get shouted down because the truth is rarely exciting and doesn't fit in a catch phrase nor does it always reflect how you might feel about a situation. Bullshit is like junk food, tailor made to get you to gobble it down.
 

Sovan Jedi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
452
Southampton, UK
Huh, I remember being in a model shop before Christmas picking things up for my dad and I overheard the owner lamenting about how much more expensive all his stock is going to be thanks to Brexit. Which is a fucking shame if his business was to suffer as model kit stuff is surprisingly difficult to get the exact items that I needed (even Amazon didn't have any of it and none of the other online shops had the things I needed) so if even more local shops like it close then I'll be very upset.

This is all par for the course preaching to the choir talk, but I wanted to weigh in anyway.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,969
You realise the majority of people who voted for Brexit see things like people having to pay more for designer handbags from Europe, and struggling with pet passports as very much part of their intention of voting for Brexit - not some sort of annoying unforeseen consequence?
Most people were replying with "project fear" whenever anyone told them this would happen, saying the government would work out a good deal due to English influence.

They didn't think this would happen to them.
 

SlickShoes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,770
I have no sympathy for this. Not only a majority of voters voted for Brexit, but then again they doubled down on it by voting into power a government that would make sure the make the worst possible Brexit deal out of it.

So technically the British (mostly English) voters voted twice to make their own life worse.

Fuck everyone else then eh!? 48% of the population voted remain, but fuck em for not trying harder and winning that election.

Once the brexit vote was gone, the labour party were already dead in the water so the tories were the only ones ever going to win the general elections at that point.
 

thetrin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,652
Atlanta, GA
Wait, why did they think this wouldn't happen? Brexit meant leaving the EU, which means that you're technically trading across international lines the minute you order into the country. What did you think was going to happen???
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,189
UK
Looking at research, it seems Leave voters were more middle class and Brexit being linked to working class is a myth. It's also not as simple that more educated folks voted Remain.

I don't know if it's ignorance or delusion that these people didn't expect this would happen.
 

StriderHiryu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
238
A lot of unsettling replies in this thread.

I agree. I didn't vote for Brexit either, but the fact is people that didn't vote for Brexit will get screwed as much as those that did. I don't get any joy from anyone having to overpay for what previously would have no or minimal charges on it, because those charges apply to all of us. A lot of those that voted for it will also have been massively manipulated into voting for it and yes there are plenty of people that aren't as educated to have known the implications of what they voted for.

I suppose it's possible that after a year of seeing all of these excess charges that it creates some sort of political movement around it, but I can't see that happening for decades. Labour aren't going to have a "we'll rejoin the EU" pledge as part of their manifesto for the next election for example given how badly they lost the last one. Maybe the Lib Dems will, but they aren't going to win a general election.

Thinking constructively we've somehow got to solve the rife xenophobism in this country, but that's something that again will take decades to fix, if at all.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,999
Fuck everyone else then eh!? 48% of the population voted remain, but fuck em for not trying harder and winning that election.

Once the brexit vote was gone, the labour party were already dead in the water so the tories were the only ones ever going to win the general elections at that point.

I mean, you can't have somebody from outside UK to fix this, no? That's how democracy works. And it's not like Labour tried too hard to fix it until it was too late, starting with voting for triggering the article 50 before there was any plan in place. Up until right before the election there were plenty of mixed messages about what should be the future deal.
 

GrantDaNasty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,001
What's the solution here?

We can't be disappointed by the people who voted without fully understanding the consequences of the vote (they were misled), we can't blame the government because it's 2 PMs ago (Cameron) where the vote was even agreed on, so how are we going to levy all the fault on the current administration that now needs to clean up?

Like I don't understand the people who are like "Oh EU, please go easy on them!" There are 27 countries the EU is formed from, if the UK gets to walk away and gets benefits and help from the EU regardless, then what's to stop everyone from leaving? The US should've just led the South Secede, I mean what's the harm right?

Actions have consequences, I hope every Leave voter sees what they have wrought. And for Remainers, I'm real sorry, this was democracy at work.
 

KingSnake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,999
More people combined voted for Labour + SNP + Lib Dems + Greens than voted Tory + Brexit Party. Your issue seems to be more with FPTP than the voters.

It's not like Labour + SNP + Lib Dems + Green had a commonly agreed future deal. Or even Labour in its entirety had a clear deal in their plans (beyond wishful thinking). Why not even add the people who didn't vote if we're here?
 

killuglypop

Member
Jan 9, 2020
980
Sounds like a year off the hobbies, think of the money we'll all save not being able to import anything /s. Jokes aside, this absolutely sucks and was completely avoidable
 

hiredhand

Member
Feb 6, 2019
3,151
This works also in the other direction and will be really bad for a lot smaller online stores based in the UK. The bigger ones can just open a side store in Ireland or Germany but for a lot of the smaller businesses that's not possible.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,567
Most of these folks voted for the hypothetical "Britain keeps all the benefits that EU member states enjoy - i.e. Britains being free to travel and toll free trade - while also being able to restrict who (i.e which foreigners) enters Britain, and also - somehow - have reduced (or no) payments towards the EU"-deal BREXIT.

The "have your cake and eat it too" Brexit.

I'm not from the UK, nor am I from the EU, and yet I understood that things will not be the same. I don't know why the average Brexit person didn't realise how things would end up becoming.
 

LetalisAmare

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,957
I am a little concerned my order from Puma is going to get hit with extra charges. Not because I didnt know this would happen when having things imported from the EU but because I didnt realise Puma ship from Germany.
 

Jokerman

Member
May 16, 2020
6,945
I was charged £25 for import charges / handling fees when receiving a parcel from the US in early January; as the parcel came via Germany.

Luckily the sender (a client of mine) had the budget to reimburse me.

You would have been hit by customs either way. If it arrived straight from the USA it would have been the same.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,635
Actually I think I see where he's coming from.

It's not that he's saying he expects tariffs to remain unchanged after Brexit without being in the EU. But rather that tariffs on goods like this would've been a thing only if there was a no deal Brexit, else what is the point of a "Brexit deal"?

It makes sense that someone would think that way if they didn't go through the deal, which most people wouldn't have, it just so happens that tariff free trade on goods like this is not part of the brexit deal.


Additionally, even I am not entirely sure on why UK customers have to pay EU VAT when the goods are leaving EU. For instance if an American buys something from UK then they don't pay UK VAT, as the goods are leaving UK, and when it reaches US the customer pays the state's local sales tax when applicable. And if we are to still pay EU VAT and then UK VAT on top of that then that's a shitty deal we have.
 
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