You're saying this in the context of literal fascists ruling the US trying right now to have a war with Iran, foiled only by the incompetence and cowardice of the boss fascist.
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BBC: Iran 'seizes British-flagged oil tanker' [Ongoing Situation] (update: MoD says also reports of second vessel, Liberian flag but UK-owned)
- Thread starter ElectricBlanketFire
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You're saying this in the context of literal fascists ruling the US trying right now to have a war with Iran, foiled only by the incompetence and cowardice of the boss fascist.
Also if you dont think non-whites have the capability to be as selfish, self-serving, nationalist and racist as a white person, I should introduce you to my mother. The faster you realize that, the better.
I have to imagine the people playing up Iran's military power are the same people who would have been raving about Sadam's million-man army right before the Gulf War.
User Banned (3 Days): Hostility Towards Other Users, Similar Past Infraction
Sigh. Trump is not a fascist. I AM SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE WITH NO SENSE WHATSOEVER LABELLING AMERICA FASCIST.
I am so sick of people acting like motherfucking Adolf Hitler fucking came to power. I'm sick of it, I'm sick of everyone just acting like the world is falling in, that all hope is lost, when it's GETTING BETTER. WHEN ITS BEEN BETTER SINCE ANY POINT PREVIOUSLY IN HISTORY. EVEN WITH DUMBASS TRUMP.
Sigh. Look, I know you feel like shit is fucked up, but honest to God, it's not that bad. It's not rise of Hitler bad. Acting like it is just simply irresponsible. Let me lay out Weimar Germany. The Great Depression was in full swing, and every economy was suffering and every country was desperately trying to preserve what they had. The unemployment rate in Germany was 30%. The radicalization of society was proceeding under complete disillusion of democracy, liberalism, and the Republic itself barely was democratic.
Compare that to the U.S today. The unemployment rate is 9%. The great recession was ten years ago. We literally just had a Democratic President 4 years ago. The rule of law is firm, the belief in the Constitution is firm, Democrats are elected and hold office peacefully. Like wtf man...you sound as crazy as a Republican arguing the camps are fine. They aren't, but....everyone....man comparing Weimar Germany to the U.S is just absurd. Go look at the Wikipedia article I'm not spending a hour trying to teach you the U.S is fucked. It's far from it.
To be utterly fair, it was only in the aftermath of the Gulf War that the new technological paradigm of warfare came to fore.
Posting operations to beat their chest in the current climate isn't a good look, reeks of insecurity to me.
And yes I'd be saying the same if X country posted an operation against Iran.
The card says moops.
Hopefully y'all know better and ignore this user. Not worth anyones time.
Yeah, like others have said, fascism not the same as nazism. If you want to be pedantic, you can replace the word with "racist ultranationalist totalitarians". Also, you put quite a focus on economic strife and earlier used China as bogeyman. So absorb one lesson about China: you can be quite comfortable living in a totalitarian state. It just means you're part of the privileged classes.
[at The Onion]
Remembering the mixture of fear and surprise they felt during the dark time in their past, a group of Holocaust survivors recalled the exact day that the Holocaust started right out of the blue, sources confirmed Tuesday. "You'd think there would've been some warning signs, but nope—everything was going along just fine until the Holocaust just up and started out of nowhere," said Esther Herzfeld, 94, who added how scared and baffled she was when she and her family had to go abruptly into hiding after hearing that Jewish people were being rounded up by something called the Gestapo. "We were just minding our own business and everything was totally normal, with no curfew or persecutions or any limits on our rights, and all of a sudden, poof—the Holocaust was in full swing. No one could figure out how the Nazis randomly decided to go after Jews and the disabled and Roma and gay people, but by nightfall people were being grabbed off the street and sent to concentration camps, which had all been built over the previous 24 hours. It was crazy—no one had any clue anything bad was going to happen."
On the contrary. They post this video to show to other nations that they are capable too and that they are not powerless.
They want the sanctions gone. And they have no problem to talk (and they want the others to hold to the deal, but the others can't do that because the US can block everything) but the others must understand that they are all on equal footing and otherwise Iran can play tough too.
And they don't want to talk to the US for now because they find that the US must screw the sanctions back first before there can be talks. Which is understandable of course because Trump got out of the agreement.
Absolutely. I mean, how can the Iranian regime be unreasenable when it's just funding and arming terrorists, supporting Assad's mass slaughter, taking hostages, killing EU citizens, threatening international shipping and launching suicide bombings in European countries? That's just fascist talk by the white men right?
I mean, are you using that video to conclude that their military is ineffective? That's a rather poor way of coming to that conclusion.
Look, Iran's military is not up to scratch, they know it and the world knows it. However their military does not need to be a modern one to inflict immense casualties on anyone that decides to fight it.
No one is capable of going toe to toe with the US, that's why most militaries that have the US as an enemy set themselves up to inflict maximum casualties.
Russia is the second strongest military in the world, yet they are incapable of duking it out on equal footing with the US, so they set up their military for near abroad defence.
Iran at this point in time is a war the US cannot begin to hope to win (depending on what you consider winning). Geography, Iran's capabilities to inflict great amounts of casualties, potential for the US to loose most of its bases in the region, US allies coming under attack, the very real possibility of the war engulfing the whole region are all reasons it is a terrible idea to go to war with Iran.
Iran has decent A2/AD (downing of the drone shows it) that means that operating fighters or bombers over the country becomes very tricky. If the US commits to an air and ground war however, then you are looking at a war that would make Vietnam seem tame. No one is pretending that the US cannot 'win' , but at what cost will that win come.
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This description almost exactly matches the United States. It's a regime that funds and arms violent insurgencies against governments it doesn't like, supports regimes that commit ethnic violence, takes permanent captives to black sites, assassinates citizens of foreign nations, threatens international shipping by seizing ships, and performs drone bombings in other countries.
So yes, there's a racist element to how the Iranian regime is portrayed as exceptionally despicable for engaging in conduct that is shrugged off as realpolitik when western powers do it.
This is a joke, right?
Iran isn't Afghanistan. They actually have a military, including (old but upgraded) American fighters and upgraded American and modern locally produced SAMs and AShMs. It's not like fighting the Taliban aka farmers with AKs where the only antiair you have to worry about is a post-WW2 autocannon aimed by hand or some MANPADS.
Hell, the only kills attributed to the much lauded but highly overrated AIM54 Phoenix long range AAM were supposedly made by Iranian pilots during the Iran-Iraq War.
Haven't seen this posted yet, via The Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...t-freeze-iran-assets-taunts-uk-seized-tanker/
Froyo Love said it really welll, the west and western backed states (hello Saudi Arabia) do things just as bad but that gets waved away.
And on this particular shipping incident, the UK seizing an Iranian ship first has received little scrutiny. Like I said earlier, it's not EU policy enforce EU sanctions on third parties. The UK acted on its own, or as seems probable, as a US proxy.
And in general can I just laugh at the idea of brexit tories acting on behalf of the EU in good faith.
Just off the top of my head I can think of Imperial Japan in the 1930s. Japan's history is littered with heinous acts.
People who hold the notion that white people have some sole exceptional claim to nationalistic and racist crimes are ignorant to history.
I hope nobody seriously thinks it'll be a cakewlk. Iran is way bigger than Iraq, hilly and mountainous unlike Iraq and the population isn't exactly 5 people in a tent.
You say that IRI's actions almost exactly matches the actions of the US, yet you don't name actions that matches those of the IRI. And no, I'm not saying that the US did/does not do horrible unnecessary things, but you seem to think their treatment of foreign and Iranian citizens on foreign or Iranian soil matches those of the US. I suggest you should read a book about the Islamic Republic's history, or visit the country or the region. You might understand then why the IRI is even more unpopular than the US, even with all that shit you named above.
We're not talking about a relatively harmless dictatorship as Cuba or Venezuela, we're talking about the Iranian regime. I can perfectly call them exceptionally despicable when they have a rich history of deliberately blowing up civilians in Europe.
Actually, it is EU policy to enforce EU sanctions on third parties when they are making use of European infrastructure or territory. And that's what happened here.
Fascism is a much broader term than nazism. Spain, Argentina, Italy etc. were fascists state once. Many people who voted for Trump have a deep-rooted desire for a 'leader'. Many people do not want democracy as long as democracy can mean that 'those there' sometimes get their way. In the US, that has spread to some sort of neo-fascism with many republicans and evangelicals. Some of the classic ingredients and characteristics are there:
- Conspiracies against us
- "Those there" are both dangerous and inferior.
- Opposition is treason
- Renewal or supposed renewal and change must be distrusted and/or prevented.
- Contempt for the weak. Obsession with 'the strong'.
- Soft Power and diplomacy are signs of weakness.
And yeah, there are some major differences like the rule of law that still functions okayish, or the fact that this administration can be voted out. It doesn't make the comparison completely wrong imo.
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That link also says that Spain contradicts the UK version and says the US requested the seizure.
Carl Bildt agrees with Spain's assessment:
Summa summarum, the UK's explanation is merely a fig leaf.
The Gibraltar supreme court confirmed the ship was in Gibraltarian territorial waters, according to the Gibraltarian government for a technical stop. That means that the ship was transiting through EU waters while they were violating European law. That means that, even if it's true the US requested it's seizure, it was legal to stop this ship. Also, the ship is free to go when it can guarantee it's not heading to Syria. That includes an EU country.
Iran has hoisted their flag on the ship
Also pretty pathetic that the UK has yet to respond besides some angry shouting.
Also pretty pathetic that the UK has yet to respond besides some angry shouting.
That doesn't contradict what I said, that it's a fig leaf. Someone found a way to to escalate against Iran, while doing it within the confines of EU law. But it doesn't change the underlying argument: The UK acted on its own, under US request most likely (though AFAIK they haven't denied so...), and it's not EU policy to do what they did.
edit: and concerning the narrative, you can see it at work in this thread. Posters already wishing for further escalation, because the situation for them feels like the UK have been wronged without provocation.
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I thought it was just my country (U.S.A.), and not "The West". Did other nations break the deal?
What do you want us to do? Nobody is going to go to war over a single tanker.
Sanctions, a bigger deployment to the Strait, yoinking one in retaliation, something.
I'm basically asking if the U.K. reneged on the deal too. I lost track of what other nations were doing on that front. Though they do seem to act as a vasal state from time to time on military maters, depending on who's in charge.
If it doesn't get resolved soon then sanctions will likely come next, the move by Iran was pretty much a desperation act to get some sort of action to stop the squeeze on their economy, it's pretty much all they have left but there's every chance that the UK will just push for reintroducing sanctions against Iran from the EU side too. A bigger deployment from multiple countries to the Strait will almost certainly happen now too.
We already have one of their tankers, it's why they pulled this stunt. We are sending a type 45 destroyer to the area as well. Nobody wants to fuck with one of those.
Still, would be nice to have a few more ships in the Royal navy. Bloody tories.
The UK, along with the other powers involved except the US, have not backed out of the deal and indeed still support it fully. We have even been trying to come up with ways for Iran to bypass US sanctions on their trade.
I really doubt that the EU isn't enforcing this policy when a foreign country or company is making use of it's infrastructure and/or territory. First, it would make evading sanctions far too easy and secondly I know of several other examples when it was enforced.
Not that surprising since, in Khamenei's world, apparently a tanker delivering illegal oil to support Assad's butchery equals a tanker delivering legal oil to support international consumers.
If you have examples, please elaborate.
Also, the oil was quite legal under Iranian legislation, which intrinsically is worth just as much as EU law. On moral grounds I can get behind sanctions. But unfortunately it's evident that moral grounds is not the reason why the Iran situation is going downhill.
There is nothing illegal in Iran law or International law about selling oil to Assad. UK is entitled to the capture since they were in UK waters but that doesn't make the oil illegal from Iran perspective.
You made it very clear that you think the type of Iran's conduct is morally outrageous. Now you're walking that back to say it's the scale of their conduct that is outrageous. That doesn't really fly with BabyMurloc's original point that there's a narrative wrongly portraying Iran as uniquely depraved by looking at all their actions in a vacuum.
I don't think there's anything wrong with, on the level of personal analysis, thinking Iran is an awful geopolitical actor. But this very thread demonstrates that a slanted narrative is present. The U.K. seizing an Iranian ship? Barely a headline, business as usual. Iran seizing a U.K. ship? An inflammatory international incident. Western media seems more scandalized by a lesser nation exercising power against the west than the deed itself. That's racist.
Some clarification:
It would be great if I could travel to another country, then violate the country's law without consequences, just because it's legal in my own country. So no, it's still a tanker delivering illegal oil to Assad.
Actually the 'brown people' I talked to were more talking about type not scale. Or are they suddenly wrong now? I think scale would probably do it as well, but that's my own judgement.
The U.K. seizing of an Iranian ship was a big headline here. Even if it wasn't, the U.K. seizing an Iranian ship carrying illegal oil through it's own waters, and bringing it to support a butcher, doesn't match illegally capturing a U.K. tanker in Omani waters that's delivering legal oil to consumers. Nothing racist or slanted about it, in both law and morality the Islamic Republic is not a victim in this case.
I do apologize for necroing the post but I got banned for a bit due to it so I couldn't respond back.
So the fun thing is right after I did that post I heard about Trump retweeting that British lady who is without a doubt a white nationalist/fascist, alt-right etc etc. And right after I made the post I started down the path of separating Trump and the administration that while he controls, does have its own mind and divisions, and the gist is.....yeah, Trump is a fascist, who loves authoritarianism and power and being top dog and etc. I guess what I did was take offensive at this idea the world is entering a dark age and negativity breeds negativity and i dont know.....
I find negativity to be bad at producing results. Calling Trump not a fascist was the wrong way to try to produce positivity through.
UK has thrown the towel and will release the Iranian ship, probably to secure the release of this British ship https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49362182
Sends a nice message to the rest of the world: if the UK takes something of yours just take something from them as well and they'll just trade you for it. And obviously this tanker is heading to Syria, if it was heading to any other country that country would have claimed so long ago.
Sends a nice message to the rest of the world: if the UK takes something of yours just take something from them as well and they'll just trade you for it. And obviously this tanker is heading to Syria, if it was heading to any other country that country would have claimed so long ago.
US wants to seize the released Iranian ship: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/unse...ek-seizure-oil-tanker-grace-1-unlawful-use-us