When I played Bayonetta 1 and 2 on Wii U, I preferred each game for different reasons. I felt what you described, OP, and the general feel of more...polish? refinement?...is something I preferred about Bayonetta 2.
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Bayonetta 1 - janky and not as good as I remember
- Thread starter SpokkX
- Start date
You literally posted a video with the cutscenes. You can find out for yourself by watching the 40 minutes worth of cutscenes in the first few segments of the game! Problem solved. Isn't that grand?!
Jank is probably a more fitting term for something like a Bethesda game, not Bayonetta
That cutscene before Father Balder was pretty long, so maybe that's it. Don't see the issue tho since it's skipable.
It's pretty rough, yeah. Tons of cutscenes, an unwieldy camera (moreso in exploration than in combat, to be fair), ridiculous QTEs and some really bad telegraphing of enemy attacks and how to deal with certain scenarios really drag it down for me. Bayo 2 isn't perfect, but it's much better for me.
Yup, for a new IP, the game was great and tried to throw in some variety with the bike and set pieces. Bayo 2 was even more polished and focused, but it felt more like a guided boss rush and I missed the lack of exploration and smaller enemies.
In combat yes, but let's not kid ourselves, it has a lot jank in non-combat level design and execution. Which seems to be a genre stable in both Bayonetta and Devil May Cry type of games.
If Bayo 3 can give me the weightier oomph of 1's combat, more varied stage scenarios and bosses.
Alongside 2's more pleasing streamlining approaches (no random arse turret sections here and even its genre switches pan out a lot better)
Then that'll be GRAVY.
Bayo 1 and 2 to me are wound together by each fixing the others flaws but missing that one complete package version. In general I find two way more playable but I think one remains actually better, there's something to be said for the way Bayonetta 2 sand off the rough edges of the original, but then kept going and you end up with that later game turning into a linear series of circular battle arenas.
Alongside 2's more pleasing streamlining approaches (no random arse turret sections here and even its genre switches pan out a lot better)
Then that'll be GRAVY.
Bayo 1 and 2 to me are wound together by each fixing the others flaws but missing that one complete package version. In general I find two way more playable but I think one remains actually better, there's something to be said for the way Bayonetta 2 sand off the rough edges of the original, but then kept going and you end up with that later game turning into a linear series of circular battle arenas.
Playing 1 for the first time (played a little on 360, but not much). I'm surprised at how Well it holds up. Feels amazing to play. Kind of surprised at the Bayonetta dislike in here, because imo it's still amazing.
Bayo 1 a bunch of well documented flaws (QTEs, genre shifts, pacing), but even in the core gameplay I prefer 2. Maybe 1 has a bigger skill ceiling, but I'm replaying it right now, and it feels off. Dodging doesn't feel like it works half the time, the camera doesn't let me see what's coming way too often, and while still fun to play, it often doesn't feel very satisfying to beat up enemies. Just relief that they're gone. When I finished 1 I was glad it was over. When I finished 2 I did want to master the combat and see how far my skill could take me. Higher skill ceiling doesn't mean much when the game isn't very inviting to even try and master it.
If you play through one part (and theres really only one part where that comes to mind) and claim that it happens multiple times then it is indeed a hyperbolic statement. Not having examples stresses that even more.
I mean, I can kinda understand where you're c coming from if you just came off of Bayonetta 2 since it just controls better but it's still an incredible game and one of my favorites.
Route 666's car hopping is jank. It's not a lot, but in combat being so polished it stands out
Bayonetta 3 has to fix a lot of things IMO
- Less cutscene
- Get rid of the QTEs and the rank after one battle, they should follow the DMC style, with one unique rank at the end of the mission
- Don't lock weapons behind collectibles
- A better camera and pacing
The combat and the flow is "ok", it's nothing near the complexity and the movesets of DMC4SE but it's really enjoyable.
- Less cutscene
- Get rid of the QTEs and the rank after one battle, they should follow the DMC style, with one unique rank at the end of the mission
- Don't lock weapons behind collectibles
- A better camera and pacing
The combat and the flow is "ok", it's nothing near the complexity and the movesets of DMC4SE but it's really enjoyable.
The Space Harrier/Afterburner stage in Bayonetta 1 is so bad. It's amazing that anyone thought that should stay in. Someone over there REALLY wanted to pad that game time.
This pretty much nails it. I've played bayo 1 on everything, ps3, 360, wiiu, xbox X. Great game, but Bayo 2 does is far better. The QTE's should've been patched out for the Switch version of Bayo 1, honestly who likes these? Pacing is mediocre too. Bayo 2 is the better one for sure.
I agree with most of your points (not the camera or the game speed, but I don't deny the rest).
That said, it's still my favorite game of all time. The tone is constantly on-point, and the combat is perfection. I fully agree that Bayonetta doesn't have a great new-player experience, but once you learn the QTEs (which are mostly in the early levels) and start replaying it and getting better, the experience is unsurpassed.
That said, it's still my favorite game of all time. The tone is constantly on-point, and the combat is perfection. I fully agree that Bayonetta doesn't have a great new-player experience, but once you learn the QTEs (which are mostly in the early levels) and start replaying it and getting better, the experience is unsurpassed.
I think platinum need to rethink their ranking systems full stop.
The whole wacky way of doing things now feels overly convoluted for if someone decides they want to get a pure plat on a chapter, gotta make sure you perfect every verse in one run including hidden verses you'll need a guide to find and repeating completed alfheims, make one mistake? better reload the entire game to make sure it doesn't scupper you with an autosave!
Really reaches a head in W101 which plays by the same rules except with even more genre switches and harder to find hidden combat encounters.
I somewhat agree OP.
I've played the game for the first time last year with the PC version. I went in with sky high expectations being a huge fan of the genre and I was pretty dissapointed.
It has fantastic combat, encounter design but that's about it.
The story and cutscenes are garbage, the pacing is mediocre, boss battle except Jeanne and the last one are damage sponges worthless behemoths with no persoanity, QTEs, turret sections and one of the worst levels that I've played in a characters action games and Jeanne 3 is locked behind it. (Kamiya needs to stop shoving BS into his games)
Except the combat and weapons, Bayo 2 is a much better game and solves almost all the problems the first has.
I've played the game for the first time last year with the PC version. I went in with sky high expectations being a huge fan of the genre and I was pretty dissapointed.
It has fantastic combat, encounter design but that's about it.
The story and cutscenes are garbage, the pacing is mediocre, boss battle except Jeanne and the last one are damage sponges worthless behemoths with no persoanity, QTEs, turret sections and one of the worst levels that I've played in a characters action games and Jeanne 3 is locked behind it. (Kamiya needs to stop shoving BS into his games)
Except the combat and weapons, Bayo 2 is a much better game and solves almost all the problems the first has.
Problem is, for every awesomely animated over the top scene, you got a bunch of sloooow exposition ones or the ol' sliding still image reels.
This goes for both games, the cutscenes have like a double whammy of pacing issues, their placement interrupting the game's flow as well as some just being long in themselves.
I agree but its an acquired taste, not everyone is going to enjoy watching Bayo slaying angel ass :(
The sequel being so uneven doesn't help things
"If someone wants the highest, perfect rank they must play with perfection."
Yes. Pure Platinum is earned, not given.
That being said, a "Retry Verse" option in the menu would be great.
I'm glad I'm finally not alone on this. I remember feeling this way in 2009 when it came out on 360, distinct conversations where I compared it to Devil May Cry and God of War and friends thought I was crazy for not liking it.
When it came to Wii U, I tried to give it another shake to see if I'd been wrong all those years but no—still had the same reservations. Skipped straight to 2 and it was nothing but bliss.
When it came to Wii U, I tried to give it another shake to see if I'd been wrong all those years but no—still had the same reservations. Skipped straight to 2 and it was nothing but bliss.
I mean while I get your point, the way the game stores the records of your verses individually only to then make the last one for the chapter a very specific one run culmination comes across as an oddity.
That and with the whole retrying verses via loading in and out, well then it's not being played to perfection by most anyway really.
Just to elaborate on this more, it seems like a kinda needless extra step for someone whose proved they can perfect each verse to then have to go and do it all again in one run for the game to consider the full chapter, feels more like an extra slice of busywork for someone who basically already met the goal.
Ultimately it doesn't matter so much to me here because I ain't getting anywhere near that anyway (i'll be fortunate to ever finish hard mode on 1 with stones), I just find when I hear tales of the hoops some people jump through to "perfect" an action game, that those extra hoops are kinda superfluous.
....I just realised I'm revisiting my Yoshi's Island "100" gripe in Bayonetta form, guess I just don't like that approach to completion full stop, it's my personal little bugbear.
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My man.
Bayo games are fine but they never did anything to my DMC thrist. Can't wait to play DMC3 again next month.
Bayonetta has a solid core. Regular enemy battles are a whole heap of fun. Overall, 70% of the game is top-tier gameplay.
Then there's that 30% that is so bad...
My problems with the game stem from chapters XIV, XV and the Epilogue mostly, because there is some absolutely ROUGH shit in there, that pretty much stands out as the epitome of all the bad and infuriating aspects of the game.
XIV's rail-shooter sequence is god awful. It's so god awful, it makes me wish that I was redoing the penis-ship segments from Kingdom Hearts. Thankfully, it's easy as all hell. But the inverted controls are an absolute pain, not to mention it just goes on, and on, and on, and on. Then it moves to the boss fight which is one of the best fights in the game, but I was completely soured by the whole segment right before it.
Then you go into XV, which is a great level, you face almost every enemy in the game, until you reach that fucking turret segment. That turret segment has all of the problems with the rail-shooter segment from XIV with less fun and without the same "easy" difficulty. It's a pain in the goddamn ass and will cause ragequits, I guarantee it. Ruined such a good level otherwise. All of the enemy fights in the level were great. I love fighting the regular enemies, that's the fun part of Bayonetta. Then it opens into this platfomer section which was...meh, but I was kind of lost for the most part. I finally got to where I was supposed to go, but it felt like I stumbled upon it by accident. Oh well. Also, the golem boss is not a fun boss. Seriously.
But then the game redeems itself with the boss fight in XVI, such a damn good fight. Probably the best boss in the game.
And then proceeds to go downhill with the worst boss in the entire game in the epilogue. The ice/fire segments are fine, that was a whole heap of fun. But when you get back into the space orb, that is when Bayonetta is at its worst. Lengthy "wait for the boss to do the move" sequences, where Witch Time simply doesn't last long enough, an instakill move, 3 health bars, a move which is almost impossible to dodge without the flying mode, and a camera that just doesn't work. The second you have to dodge attacks based entirely on audio cues with zero help from the visuals on screen is a bad, bad thing in a character action game. This fight is a slog. Either you luck out and it does the ice/fire ball spam where you can atleast get a Wicked Weave combo off, or you have to try and dodge that 3rd punch which is a really annoying move to get the timing down for. You spend 99% of the time actually running away from the black hole rather than actually fighting anything. It's awful.
PlatinumGames' boss fights, in any game, have always been at their best when it's a simple 1v1 with quick moving enemies with movesets that are similar to yours, not these colossal monsters with a glowing red orb you have to try and hit. It's why Metal Gear Rising Revengeance is so, so far ahead of Bayonetta, it's not even funny, but it does make sense as they definitely did learn from their mistakes. Hell, even Vanquish learned from Bayonetta's mistakes.
From what it looks like, Bayonetta was PlatinumGames throwing shit at the wall to see what stuck. Everything that didn't, they left it behind. It's interesting looking at it now, but it's a rough experience to play through, especially if you've played their other titles first.
Then there's that 30% that is so bad...
My problems with the game stem from chapters XIV, XV and the Epilogue mostly, because there is some absolutely ROUGH shit in there, that pretty much stands out as the epitome of all the bad and infuriating aspects of the game.
XIV's rail-shooter sequence is god awful. It's so god awful, it makes me wish that I was redoing the penis-ship segments from Kingdom Hearts. Thankfully, it's easy as all hell. But the inverted controls are an absolute pain, not to mention it just goes on, and on, and on, and on. Then it moves to the boss fight which is one of the best fights in the game, but I was completely soured by the whole segment right before it.
Then you go into XV, which is a great level, you face almost every enemy in the game, until you reach that fucking turret segment. That turret segment has all of the problems with the rail-shooter segment from XIV with less fun and without the same "easy" difficulty. It's a pain in the goddamn ass and will cause ragequits, I guarantee it. Ruined such a good level otherwise. All of the enemy fights in the level were great. I love fighting the regular enemies, that's the fun part of Bayonetta. Then it opens into this platfomer section which was...meh, but I was kind of lost for the most part. I finally got to where I was supposed to go, but it felt like I stumbled upon it by accident. Oh well. Also, the golem boss is not a fun boss. Seriously.
But then the game redeems itself with the boss fight in XVI, such a damn good fight. Probably the best boss in the game.
And then proceeds to go downhill with the worst boss in the entire game in the epilogue. The ice/fire segments are fine, that was a whole heap of fun. But when you get back into the space orb, that is when Bayonetta is at its worst. Lengthy "wait for the boss to do the move" sequences, where Witch Time simply doesn't last long enough, an instakill move, 3 health bars, a move which is almost impossible to dodge without the flying mode, and a camera that just doesn't work. The second you have to dodge attacks based entirely on audio cues with zero help from the visuals on screen is a bad, bad thing in a character action game. This fight is a slog. Either you luck out and it does the ice/fire ball spam where you can atleast get a Wicked Weave combo off, or you have to try and dodge that 3rd punch which is a really annoying move to get the timing down for. You spend 99% of the time actually running away from the black hole rather than actually fighting anything. It's awful.
PlatinumGames' boss fights, in any game, have always been at their best when it's a simple 1v1 with quick moving enemies with movesets that are similar to yours, not these colossal monsters with a glowing red orb you have to try and hit. It's why Metal Gear Rising Revengeance is so, so far ahead of Bayonetta, it's not even funny, but it does make sense as they definitely did learn from their mistakes. Hell, even Vanquish learned from Bayonetta's mistakes.
From what it looks like, Bayonetta was PlatinumGames throwing shit at the wall to see what stuck. Everything that didn't, they left it behind. It's interesting looking at it now, but it's a rough experience to play through, especially if you've played their other titles first.
I'm picking up the DMC collection for the first time on PS4 because of my love for Bayo.
Hopefully the combat is just as good, I want to play more games like Bayo. I love God Of War, but find Bayo's combat far superior
You're in for one hell of a ride. Enjoy and make sure to skip DMC2!
The insta death QTEs are awful, so are the motorbike and turret section near the end. Bayo 2 is way better
I'll probably get around to it again on Switch, but it be rough after Bayo 2, which feels more refined and better paced, along with not having crappy QTE heh. Also has ugly colors, but least that can be fixed with reshader on PC.
The only thing I really dislike getting back to Bayo1 are the instant-death QTEs.
Everything else is still as awesome as it was back then.
EDIT: Oh and I also dislike the "next-gen" filter. Washed-out colors and constant tones of brown and yellow. It's clearly and obviously a game of its time.
Thankfully Bayo2 abandoned both the instant-death QTEs and next-gen filter and gave Bayonetta herself an infinitely superior design.
Everything else is still as awesome as it was back then.
EDIT: Oh and I also dislike the "next-gen" filter. Washed-out colors and constant tones of brown and yellow. It's clearly and obviously a game of its time.
Thankfully Bayo2 abandoned both the instant-death QTEs and next-gen filter and gave Bayonetta herself an infinitely superior design.
I bought this in a spot of weakness the other day, well, the retail two pack. I think I'm going to return it before I open it after reading these impressions. I'm not big on the genre, really, but I wanted to play it since I never have but I will wait for a price drop. I've made a few bad purchases on my Switch so far letting mass hype for a game in a genre I don't really enjoy lure me in (Celeste and Bayonetta recently).
Newcomer to the series. 4 or 5 hours into bayo 1 so far and having a lot of fun. I get the complaints i suppose but the combat is just so satisfying. Really looking forward to comparing and contrasting bayo 2 once i finish 1.
The story and characters are interesting at the very least if not exactly good. Enemy design is also pretty awesome.
The story and characters are interesting at the very least if not exactly good. Enemy design is also pretty awesome.
If you want to look at poor use of scale, Bayonetta 2 is worse. The flying automates so much.
To be fair, the PS3 version of Bayonetta is complete shit compared to every other version
Bayonetta 1 is still a great with what many would consider arguably a better combat system that too. There'a also a metric ton of content within the game and reason why the series is so beloved among core gaming communities so I certainly wouldn't skip it. It's generally a game that far surpasses it's flaws.