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Battlefield fans are upset you play as a regretful Nazi soldier in the new War Story
- Thread starter CenturionNami
- Start date
You are right when we talk about the Wehrmacht as an entity. To do that you have to look at statistics and trends rather than personal views. It's one way to depict history. Anecdotal evidence and personal histories serve to better define that, but those accounts don't override the overwhelming trends.
Just because the far right desperately wants to steal people's personal histories by portraying them as the norm doesn't mean you have to do the same by outright dismissing every personal experience in favour of your argument. You only cheapen what you want to say. Nuance is important. Learning from dissent can open up exciting new perspectives on historic research.
Care to explain, you sound like the type that thinks Mein Kampf needs to be read in school
I like playing like the evil whatever (Monster, Nazi, murderer, dictator, etc.) in every game that offers me to do so :-/
But I also do enjoy seeing those people so stirred about this, so I'll just take a step back and keep enjoying their loser tears. Fuck nazis.
Also, I've found the war stories to be really, really bad so far so I don't get why they are so mad about them. On the other hand, classic multiplayer modes are great.
You'd do yourself a favor just to dip out, because you're making yourself sound even more foolish now.
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory whataboutism, History of serious infractions
Not to nitpick or anything, but I think it is fucking disrespectful to broadly claim that all Germans are (were) Nazis. I think it is mostly a problem with the US people, Europeans remember that there was a fuckton of civilians and ordinary people fighting for and against Germany.
It is so sad to see that peeps continue this broad generalisation to this day.
If you have a German campaign, it doesn't mean that you have to play as actual Nazis. There were many, many people in Wehrmacht etc. who were soldiers loyal to their country, not the ideology. Talking about the leaders, ordinary soldiers went where they were told to go. Of course there were lots of people who were on board with Nazi ideology too, but that's hardly damning in those times, since like half the population of Europe had sympathies with Nazis (until it became clear that Germany will lose, then they jumped the ship and loudly condemned the nazi atrocities).
Situation in Germany was never black and white regarding the Nazi ideology. Of course it is simpler to say that German=Evil, kill them all. Luckily some countries teach critical thinking in schools, and even young people understand that nothing is never as simple as that (we have our glue sniffing turdlets too, of course, but everyone demographic has those, be it a country or a group of friends, there's always someone utterly stupid).
And lol at people who say that it was Germans only who were doing the whole genocide... Polish were pretty in with getting rid of the Jews too, and in most of the European countries race hygienic thinking was pretty hot. US continued that well after that, and some could argue that they are continueing it to this day (when you look what they are doing to minorities etc.).
And some people whining about playing as Germans, grow up. I think it is great to see a story like that. We need more movies from the Axis view point, preferably as historically accurate as possible. That helps even the stupid ones (you know, those who can barely read, and need a dub for their movies since they can't be arsed to read subs) understand the reality back then.
There is a reason far right is getting foothold among the less educated, they use simple language. People opposing far right get way too poetic in their waxing, or they just punch the far right people. It is not working, it only creates more hate among the hateful. We went that road once already (the revenge mentality of the Germans after being shat from a great altitude after WW1), did it work?
We need to educate the masses. We need to show the results of concentration camps in school (if your country isn't already doing that, we were shown that stuff when I was like 15-16), we need to use easy-to-understand messaging. And movies are good at that. Not movies glorifying war (like US WW2 movies tend to be blatant pro-US military propaganda), but movies showing what it was really about. It was pain and suffering, men going crazy under the pressure, people fighting for their lives because they had no choice (The Pacific was good at this, better than Band of Brother even though BoB is the finest WW2 story about US soldiers ever done).
The new Unknown Soldier is a harrowing movie, and it tells a story from a non-Allied side (Finnish movie). I cried so much during that movie, partly because of a group of elderly people who sat behind me. They remembered it all, I heard them cry and shout throughout the movie, they lived it all again (I think that they were from Karelia and driven out from their homes when Soviets came).
That reminds me, German soldiers stationed in Finland didn't have anything against Jewish people. They even fought side to side, Jews had their synagogues and all in the front and (most of the) Germans didn't have any problems with that. Some Germans made good friends with Jewish, if I remember right there was either a SS officer or regular officer who became like best buds with one Jewish man. There is a book about Jewish in Winter and Continuation War, written by a Jewish person. Some of the Jewish did face racism, even from Finnish officers, mainly stuff like not getting a promotion to higher ranks etc. but those seem to been individual aggressors.
That above alone tells me that not all of the Germans were Nazis, even though some people even here like to say so. I try to fish the name of the book and edit it here, it was a small book in my local library.
EDIT.
I didn't find the book name, but here's something about Jewish in Finnish army in Winter and Continuation War:
Jewish veteran who was a translator Fin to Ger
"
– Minä en ole SS. Minä en ole SA, siis natsi. Ich bin Wehrmacht, kuulun armeijaan, Altschuler kertoo upseerin vastanneen.
– Henkilökohtaisesti minulla ei koskaan ole ollut minkäänlaista juutalaisvihaa. Olen ammatiltani insinööri ja toimistossa minulla oli juutalaisia kavereita. En siedä noita mustapukuisia. Ne eivät ole mitään sotilaita.
"
Rough translation:
"
– I am not SS. I am not SA, meaning Nazi. Ich bin Wehrmacht, I belong to army, Altschuler (the Finnish veteran) tells officer's answer.
– Personally I have never had any kind of hatred towards Jewish. I am an engineer by profession and I had Jewish friends at the office. I can't stand those dressed in black uniform. They are not soldiers. "
And an overview about Jewish in Finnish army:
Juutalaiset sotilaat taistelivat saksalaisten rinnalla Suomen itsenäisyyden puolesta
3 Jewish even got an Iron Cross from Germany, none of them took it.
Here one of the veterans say that there was antisemitism in Finland before Winter War, but that went away because Jewish fought alongside other Finnish, defending their country.
Sholem Bolotowsky vahtivuorolla Syvärillä. Mahdoton sota -kirjan kuvitusta.John Simon: Mahdoton sota.
Picture from a book by John Simon. He is Jewish, from New York. He wrote a book that combines fiction and fact (he made up a Jewish family and tells their story in Finland during the wars or something). That pic seems to be from IRL though, and it shows how the Suomi-KP should be in the game (drum magazine, that is the iconic look for the gun).
Here is the link to YLE article about the book/author, in Finnish once again.
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9864223
All of the links are in Finnish, but use translator or something. The main point is that German troops in Finland treated Jewish normally, by and large. Some were not as friendly as others, but that's life.
It is so sad to see that peeps continue this broad generalisation to this day.
If you have a German campaign, it doesn't mean that you have to play as actual Nazis. There were many, many people in Wehrmacht etc. who were soldiers loyal to their country, not the ideology. Talking about the leaders, ordinary soldiers went where they were told to go. Of course there were lots of people who were on board with Nazi ideology too, but that's hardly damning in those times, since like half the population of Europe had sympathies with Nazis (until it became clear that Germany will lose, then they jumped the ship and loudly condemned the nazi atrocities).
Situation in Germany was never black and white regarding the Nazi ideology. Of course it is simpler to say that German=Evil, kill them all. Luckily some countries teach critical thinking in schools, and even young people understand that nothing is never as simple as that (we have our glue sniffing turdlets too, of course, but everyone demographic has those, be it a country or a group of friends, there's always someone utterly stupid).
And lol at people who say that it was Germans only who were doing the whole genocide... Polish were pretty in with getting rid of the Jews too, and in most of the European countries race hygienic thinking was pretty hot. US continued that well after that, and some could argue that they are continueing it to this day (when you look what they are doing to minorities etc.).
And some people whining about playing as Germans, grow up. I think it is great to see a story like that. We need more movies from the Axis view point, preferably as historically accurate as possible. That helps even the stupid ones (you know, those who can barely read, and need a dub for their movies since they can't be arsed to read subs) understand the reality back then.
There is a reason far right is getting foothold among the less educated, they use simple language. People opposing far right get way too poetic in their waxing, or they just punch the far right people. It is not working, it only creates more hate among the hateful. We went that road once already (the revenge mentality of the Germans after being shat from a great altitude after WW1), did it work?
We need to educate the masses. We need to show the results of concentration camps in school (if your country isn't already doing that, we were shown that stuff when I was like 15-16), we need to use easy-to-understand messaging. And movies are good at that. Not movies glorifying war (like US WW2 movies tend to be blatant pro-US military propaganda), but movies showing what it was really about. It was pain and suffering, men going crazy under the pressure, people fighting for their lives because they had no choice (The Pacific was good at this, better than Band of Brother even though BoB is the finest WW2 story about US soldiers ever done).
The new Unknown Soldier is a harrowing movie, and it tells a story from a non-Allied side (Finnish movie). I cried so much during that movie, partly because of a group of elderly people who sat behind me. They remembered it all, I heard them cry and shout throughout the movie, they lived it all again (I think that they were from Karelia and driven out from their homes when Soviets came).
That reminds me, German soldiers stationed in Finland didn't have anything against Jewish people. They even fought side to side, Jews had their synagogues and all in the front and (most of the) Germans didn't have any problems with that. Some Germans made good friends with Jewish, if I remember right there was either a SS officer or regular officer who became like best buds with one Jewish man. There is a book about Jewish in Winter and Continuation War, written by a Jewish person. Some of the Jewish did face racism, even from Finnish officers, mainly stuff like not getting a promotion to higher ranks etc. but those seem to been individual aggressors.
That above alone tells me that not all of the Germans were Nazis, even though some people even here like to say so. I try to fish the name of the book and edit it here, it was a small book in my local library.
People from US have no place in telling us Europeans what we should feel about WW2 or anything remotely concerning that. You have always lived in your bubble there, you have your own problems with constitutional racism and the heritage of slavery we don't have here. It really annoys me when Americans try to say that it is all the same. No the fuck it isn't we didn't keep slaves. We didn't think that other humans are animals and you can abuse them as much as you want. We don't introduce drugs to our minorities on purpose, to keep them from rising. Even our far right is like middle in your politic system, and our actual neo-nazis are emulating US nazis, not German or anyone else (they have those silly stupid Southern flags etc., tells how stupid they are, and they have picked everything from American TV shows).
EDIT.
I didn't find the book name, but here's something about Jewish in Finnish army in Winter and Continuation War:
Jewish veteran who was a translator Fin to Ger
"
– Minä en ole SS. Minä en ole SA, siis natsi. Ich bin Wehrmacht, kuulun armeijaan, Altschuler kertoo upseerin vastanneen.
– Henkilökohtaisesti minulla ei koskaan ole ollut minkäänlaista juutalaisvihaa. Olen ammatiltani insinööri ja toimistossa minulla oli juutalaisia kavereita. En siedä noita mustapukuisia. Ne eivät ole mitään sotilaita.
"
Rough translation:
"
– I am not SS. I am not SA, meaning Nazi. Ich bin Wehrmacht, I belong to army, Altschuler (the Finnish veteran) tells officer's answer.
– Personally I have never had any kind of hatred towards Jewish. I am an engineer by profession and I had Jewish friends at the office. I can't stand those dressed in black uniform. They are not soldiers. "
And an overview about Jewish in Finnish army:
Juutalaiset sotilaat taistelivat saksalaisten rinnalla Suomen itsenäisyyden puolesta
3 Jewish even got an Iron Cross from Germany, none of them took it.
Here one of the veterans say that there was antisemitism in Finland before Winter War, but that went away because Jewish fought alongside other Finnish, defending their country.
Sholem Bolotowsky vahtivuorolla Syvärillä. Mahdoton sota -kirjan kuvitusta.John Simon: Mahdoton sota.
Picture from a book by John Simon. He is Jewish, from New York. He wrote a book that combines fiction and fact (he made up a Jewish family and tells their story in Finland during the wars or something). That pic seems to be from IRL though, and it shows how the Suomi-KP should be in the game (drum magazine, that is the iconic look for the gun).
Here is the link to YLE article about the book/author, in Finnish once again.
https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9864223
All of the links are in Finnish, but use translator or something. The main point is that German troops in Finland treated Jewish normally, by and large. Some were not as friendly as others, but that's life.
Last edited:
Oh, You're cool.
Fuck Nazis and Nazism, don't really care about what you think
This, thank you.
It's scary reading some of the posts here in this what I usually consider a better-than-average informed forum.
Yes, the war was more complicated than just evil or not evil, but all this stuff about "they were just soldiers", "we didn't know, what was happening behind the front" etc is sickening.
These are lies a whole generation told themselves collectively so they would be able to face themselves in the mirror again.
On topic
What do these people expect from a German campaign? We're soldiers fighting in Russia defending our glorious regime and making sure the German race has enough place to expand in the future?
And the game is supposed to present this without questioning as a valid point of view?
Glad to see a post like this among all the Wehraboo shit I've seen posted.
Could you elaborate on what exactly you are talking about here? Because I don't get it. The Red Army certainly weren't angels during their invasion of Germany in '44/'45 but it doesn't even compare to what the Wehrmacht has done during their invasion of Russia and more so during their retreat (Rape, murder, burning down everything...).
I thought these guys were outraged that they're playing an apologetic Nazi, and not one that is full-on Nazi that's shooting up Jews like they fantasize themselves doing.
While I agree with you, present day Russia provides countless examples of rewriting history, often outrageously (for example, the occupation of Czechoslovakia of '68 was celebrated as liberation by a documentary on Russian state television). So I think they shouldn't be too salty if they're subjected to a little rewrite, too.
The Red Army were "no angels", you say?
Wikipedia says the following about the fall of Berlin:
"The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million.[7][8][9][10] According to historian William Hitchcock, in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[11] At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[9] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath.[12] Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.[1][13] Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", and has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone."
(source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany )
actually the war story that has me the most interested since no one has the balls to have a playable german campaign in ww2.
that being said I fully expect a SWBF2 moment and if done well wont bother me.
that being said I fully expect a SWBF2 moment and if done well wont bother me.
I think the real issue we have discovered here is DICE are replacing the Red Army with the Americans in the Fall of Berlin.
That is some next level bullshit. Don't make the campaign if you can't maintain authenticity, this isn't some random multiplayer match.
That is some next level bullshit. Don't make the campaign if you can't maintain authenticity, this isn't some random multiplayer match.
Imagine posting this:
"No the fuck it isn't we didn't keep slaves. We didn't think that other humans are animals and you can abuse them as much as you want. We don't introduce drugs to our minorities on purpose, to keep them from rising."
...in a thread about the Nazis.
I love that they are trying to make your play in almost all sides featured in the game. The story isn't about one person or country. It's about few characters from different backgrounds. I can't wait to play this one
How many people play those single player campaigns in BF anyway? I personally think they are all terrible (played the first two). There are so many other games out that I could play for story reasons. I bet most people complaining about this new chapter don't even play the single player.
My point is that the atrocities perpetrated by the Red Army, particularly in Germany (although other "liberated" countries rarely fared much better) were comparable or even worse than what Nazis did during their Russian campaign.
Well this is a hell of a post.
Starts off with Clean Wehrmacht and immediately jumps to just "following orders". Then swerves into a pretty insane whataboutIsm! Now it jumps back in with a "poor Germany" was picked on too much with Versailles.
Not finished gotta get back in with a #notallwehramacht and even that's not enough throwing in a possible #notallSS.
Then finishes off strong with more whataboutism.
You want a game to show something that never happened to dispel a "myth"? Not sure about that.
There is an interesting (if perhaps OT) debate opening up here. How far does responsibility spread to the wider people of Japan and Germany at the time for their atrocities during WW2?
It is a very tricky thing to consider. Certainly there are many stories of individuals who did not believe in what they were asked to do but still carried their orders out. How culpable are they? Then how does that translate to modern democracy - given neither Japan or Germany were democracies. How responsible are we for the actions of our nations?
It is a very tricky thing to consider. Certainly there are many stories of individuals who did not believe in what they were asked to do but still carried their orders out. How culpable are they? Then how does that translate to modern democracy - given neither Japan or Germany were democracies. How responsible are we for the actions of our nations?
What the Red Army did to the eastern European states is horrendous. BUT shouldn't be accounted in the same way as what they did when they capturerd eastern Germany. No other country's civilian populatian suffered as much under Germany as Russia, same goes for the military. It's certainly not my intend to support rape as an legimate act of warfare, but what the Red Army did in Gemany (and I single out Germany here) is in a way understandable (and I only use this because of the lack of a better word on my side) when you look at what the Wehrmacht did to russian villages, russian civilians and russian women over the span of three years.
Your point is also brought up often by german Neo-Nazis in the same way they call the Dresden bombing at the end of the war the "Bomb-Holocaust". It's victim reversal. The german civilian population brought that war on themselves by supporting it in the first place.
Not all of them. And would an extension of that argument not mean saying those young British men who supported their country in WW1 and volunteered (often lying about their age to get through) to be ordered to walk in front of machine gun fire brought it on themselves......
I'm surprised it took this long for this kind of discussion in a WWII game but I guess the online commenting community has opened up considerably from the last FPS go around on WWII.
There is so much nuance to the overall history of WWII and there are a multitude of perspectives here that comes into play.
Yes. It's entitely reasonable that there are sympathetic Nazis. Look up John Rabe, the Nazi stationed in China that witnessed the horrors of genocide the Japanese was doing to the Chinese.
It also goes to say that not all Nazis were aware of Hitlers own genocidal plans. I mean, it's not many, but they exist. While most of the nation was indoctrinated and swollen with blind, national pride, they all still have souls.
I saw some comments here as well about sympathy for the Japan side of the war, which, the two bombs against the civilians are absolutely a heinous crime, but at the same, America saw no other way to put a prompt end to the war.
The American view on the Japanese side is also insanely nuanced. Where they were intense with sentencing war crimes for German soldiers, they were completely lax when it came to the Japanese.
One of the most notorious medical regimes of Japan during WWII, unit 571 (don't look it up if you've never heard of it) were mostly spared due to the US taking in their medical findings for their own benefit.
But there's also the perspective of, "well, Americans put Japanese Americans into camps and then also dropped two nuclear bombs on two of their cities, killing countless civilians... we should take it easy of them."
However, to this day, Chinese and Koreans look at the Japanese with just as much general disdain as a typical American would at the Nazis during WWII. Yes, the bombs were absolutely awful but it was an extremely unfortunate circumstance of war.
This is further compounded by the fact that Japan as a nation refuses to address their dark period during WWII within their textbooks so future generations will have no idea of what transpired. They've even gone so far as to outlaw and ban documentaries that walk about it that's made within their own nation.
And then you look at Germany, which has made it a point as a nation to never forget their role in the war.
So, yea, like most forms of media covering a topic like WWII, and especially in game form, it's going to be extremely tough tackling the nuance.
There is so much nuance to the overall history of WWII and there are a multitude of perspectives here that comes into play.
Yes. It's entitely reasonable that there are sympathetic Nazis. Look up John Rabe, the Nazi stationed in China that witnessed the horrors of genocide the Japanese was doing to the Chinese.
It also goes to say that not all Nazis were aware of Hitlers own genocidal plans. I mean, it's not many, but they exist. While most of the nation was indoctrinated and swollen with blind, national pride, they all still have souls.
I saw some comments here as well about sympathy for the Japan side of the war, which, the two bombs against the civilians are absolutely a heinous crime, but at the same, America saw no other way to put a prompt end to the war.
The American view on the Japanese side is also insanely nuanced. Where they were intense with sentencing war crimes for German soldiers, they were completely lax when it came to the Japanese.
One of the most notorious medical regimes of Japan during WWII, unit 571 (don't look it up if you've never heard of it) were mostly spared due to the US taking in their medical findings for their own benefit.
But there's also the perspective of, "well, Americans put Japanese Americans into camps and then also dropped two nuclear bombs on two of their cities, killing countless civilians... we should take it easy of them."
However, to this day, Chinese and Koreans look at the Japanese with just as much general disdain as a typical American would at the Nazis during WWII. Yes, the bombs were absolutely awful but it was an extremely unfortunate circumstance of war.
This is further compounded by the fact that Japan as a nation refuses to address their dark period during WWII within their textbooks so future generations will have no idea of what transpired. They've even gone so far as to outlaw and ban documentaries that walk about it that's made within their own nation.
And then you look at Germany, which has made it a point as a nation to never forget their role in the war.
So, yea, like most forms of media covering a topic like WWII, and especially in game form, it's going to be extremely tough tackling the nuance.
Miss me with that "understandable" shit k?
The Russians raped, pillaged and murdered their way through my country as well, and we were also occupied by the Germans.
And are you really, really saying that GERMAN POPULATION BROUGHT IT ON THEMSELVES? Disgusting.
Not all of whome and what?
And what has the high number of volunteers in all european countries at the start of WW1 in 1914 has to do with anything here
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory false equivalencies surrounding bigotry and hate, history of severe infractions.
Of course that I am against the nazism, but if you can play awful games like GTA and Read Dead Redemption, so there is no excuse to permit this, after all, this is a game, an escapism, right? The same excuse that a lot here used to justify playing things like GTA.
Hate speech (and fake indignation) against a group that you do not like is also hate speech. You are in the same level as them. I reported you.
Hate speech (and fake indignation) against a group that you do not like is also hate speech. You are in the same level as them. I reported you.
On one hand, it's extremely predictable and imo lazy writing (because of how predictable it is).
On the other hand, I really wouldn't feel comfortable playing an actual Nazi that believes in this shit.
They should have went with a german deserter who tries to sabotage the wehrmacht from the beginning, that would be awesome.
On the other hand, I really wouldn't feel comfortable playing an actual Nazi that believes in this shit.
They should have went with a german deserter who tries to sabotage the wehrmacht from the beginning, that would be awesome.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. They supported the war with enthusiasm until it came back to them in '43 and even then they kept fighting until the very end. Meanwhile they not only knew about but helped organizing and executed the holocaust. They deserved what they got and then some. Jesus, why is this even a point that has to be adressed.
I agree with this. I think that the Japanese atrocities during WW2 are largely overlooked for reasons that are often not really clear to me. Their treatment of PoWs for example is arguably (not that arguable really) the worst in modern history. They haven't ever properly apologised for it either to my knowledge.
Not every German citizen in the late 30's and early 40's supported the war. The idea you can airbrush a society like that is IMO somewhat dangerous.
You could say the same about ISIS and most other terrorist organisations. The West played a big role in creating the conditions for their existence.
And if you look at how many civilians got killed by western nations in the middle east over the last decades, all done by elected governments, it is totally reasonable that they kill civilians. /s
If you rape and murder, nothing absolves you frome that or makes that ok.