Batman vs Superman writer's inteview tells us all thats wrong with DCEU

[AuthenticM]

i mean i get that,but why anyone would have thought people wanted to watch that shit in a movie?

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Lots of people want their movies to be more than mindless fun vehicles, including superhero movies. There shouldn't be a preclusion on deeper or intellectual stories featuring existing superheroes.

If only we had gotten someone better than Snyder to attempt to tell such a story.

 

[Slayven]

Agreed. So many people are obsessed with subverting or complicating a pretty damn simple hero, they forgot how he usually functions.

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Forgot or never knew in the first place. Reminds me of this

 

[Dalek]

You do plan on having likable heroes in your likable heroes movie, right?

 

[greengr]

Lots of people want their movies to be more than mindless fun vehicles, including superhero movies. There shouldn't be a preclusion on deeper or intellectual stories featuring existing superheroes.

If only we had gotten someone better than Snyder to attempt to tell such a story.

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I am the first to say theres variations between Reeves Superman and Knightmare Superman you could do,but the character had so many interpretations over the years that people think a dark,edgy,"too deep for you" Superman is the way to go.The character is not Homelander or Tony Stark.Hopefully Micheal B Jordan's Superman would get it right.

 

[gholas]

I mean in The Dark Knight Returns, Supes is a stooge for the US government doing all kinds of heinous shit for Ronald Reagan. I don't think its that odd for them to at least address that idea in a movie very, very loosely based off of that comic. I won't defend its execution, but to suggest it has no place in a Superman story is a little much.

 

[modoversus]

Just like all of the other edgier themes introduced in these movies, the parallel of Superman as an U.S. weapon is featured and then nothing interesting is done with it—they ask these hard questions, and then give no answers of any sort. It just exists as edgy set dressing, just like with batman killing people. They present these characters as heroes by the end when they don't actually overcome, reconcile, or work through any of these flaws

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100% Agreed.

That's it, it's not that it's edgy, is that it does not do anything with it and is not justified in any way.

 

[8byte]

Sounds like they were trying to address the same things that Marvel did in Captain America: Civil War (obviously they didn't copy each other), but with much less success because they don't grapple with the consequences on screen (or maybe they did, it's been years since I've seen it and I've forgotten plenty of it). There's no conflict resolution with the characters, so those scenes just come across as cheap shock action scenes.

It could have worked, but I think they had the wrong people driving the story telling.

 

[MegaManTrigger]

And then consider Snyder was obsessed with Watchmen, Dr. Manhattan was somewhat of a Superman criticism, then it makes sense how he got that idea

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That's why the argument of "Snyder did Watchmen, he understands comic books!!!" was incredibly silly. The thing is that just bc you (or rather Moore) deconstructed the characters in Watchmen, doesn't mean the same applies to Batman/Superman/etc. Especially since Dr. Manhattan is a figure devoid of human emotion in ways that Superman is not. Rorschach is deranged and angry in ways that Batman is not (although some liken Batman to Owlman).

If the goal was to do something different with Superman, then why not establish his ability to be incorruptible? That would play into the whole "God vs. Man" themes, and also allow Superman to be an inspirational (as opposed to cynical) figure.

 

[Parch]

You do plan on having likable heroes in your likable heroes movie, right?

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That's where they went wrong. BvS was a hot mess. People HATED the characters, and the movie was loudly criticized for having unlikeable heroes.

These characters have been in comics so long that there's always going to be a variety of interpretations they can chose from. Some writer is always going to have an edgy version. But overall the hero character is rarely going to be considered unlikeable. I absolutely hated what they did to Batman. There was a lot wrong with the movie, but their choice of how to portray the characters was a very bad choice.

 

[Yams]

Marvel has mostly stayed true to it's source material. DC has not. I think that has a lot to do with the success of the movies.

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I know people like to say this but it's not true. Just look at what they did to Spidey. They striped him of everything that made him the friendly neighborhood hero and made him a globe trotting Iron Man jr. Erased his main motivation for being a hero by acting like Uncle Ben is just gone. Then there's Thor, Hawkeye, and characters like Thanos. Characters that are nothing like their comic counterpart

 

[UnpopularBlargh]

I don't have a problem with a different interpretation of characters. My issue is most of Zack Snyder's films are made up of good ideas executed badly.

 

[El Bombastico]

I know people like to say this but it's not true. Just look at what they did to Spidey. They striped him of everything that made him the friendly neighborhood hero and made him a globe trotting Iron Man jr. Erased his main motivation for being a hero by acting like Uncle Ben is just gone. Then there's Thor, Hawkeye, and characters like Thanos. Characters that are nothing like their comic counterpart

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Thanos went from a psycho creep who literally wanted to fuck Death to someone with who (in his own sick, twisted mind) wants to help bring peace the universe.

You can change characters from their comic counterparts. But the change has to actually be well though-out and, well, GOOD.../

 

[AuthenticM]

I am the first to say theres variations between Reeves Superman and Knightmare Superman you could do,but the character had so many interpretations over the years that people think a dark,edgy,"too deep for you" Superman is the way to go.

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okay, but your post wasn't that. The post you responded to quoted the writer talking about using Superman to comment on American interventionism. In the scene in question, Superman isn't the evil Knightmare Superman who does Evil Things; he's doing his standard Superman routine of saving people in need. He simply does so outside of America. There's nothing edgy about wanting to use that fact to comment on American interventionism; it's pretty standard storytelling.

The character is not Homelander or Tony Stark.

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What equivalency are you trying to establish between Tony Stark and Homelander?

In any case, you seem to be taking issue, like many do, with taking an existing character and telling a different kind of story with them. Something that isn't standard fare. I find this mindset, fairly common in comics circles, to be very disappointing, if not reprehensible.

Comicbook characters, with their superpowers and fantastical realities, are ripe for stories using allegories, parallels and other figurative devices to say something about the real world. In the case of Superman, I would understand people taking umbrage with a movie not sticking to the character's roots if said movie was the first movie made on him. But Man of Steel or BvS weren't the first. Before Man of Steel, there had already been five live-action Superman movies, including one released not even ten years before. After so many movies, at some point, it's time to tell a different story by taking the character in a new direction.

But like I said, Snyder was not able to fully grasp the ideas he was playing with. It's a shame.

 

[Bonefish]

I know people like to say this but it's not true. Just look at what they did to Spidey. They striped him of everything that made him the friendly neighborhood hero and made him a globe trotting Iron Man jr. Erased his main motivation for being a hero by acting like Uncle Ben is just gone. Then there's Thor, Hawkeye, and characters like Thanos. Characters that are nothing like their comic counterpart

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MCU Thor is so bad. Maybe one day there will be a good Thor movie, but it clearly won't happen any time soon.

 

[MillionIII]

There are other movies of Superman saving cats from trees, I think that version of him is boring. Drone strike superman is at least something different...

 

[Billfisto]

It's possible to include real-world parallels or actually delve into the fallout of having a state-sponsored superhero while still keeping a character authentic to his source material. See: MCU Captain America.

The Snyderverse has a veneer of having something to say, but it never actually says it. (Apart from the Superman is Jesus stuff, which it repeatedly gets in your face and shouts about).

 

[blueredandgold]

Came for the shitposting, stayed for the contrast and comparisons with other comic book adaptations.

Probably time to accept that Superman's 'chance to go rogue' is as much a character trait to explore now as much as the spaceship that brought him here is.

 

[JayCB64]

I mean, that's one of a billion things so far.

 

[Parch]

Probably time to accept that Superman's 'chance to go rogue' is as much a character trait to explore now as much as the spaceship that brought him here is.

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Maybe if it works and the movie is successful. When it doesn't work and people scream at how terrible the movie is, then it was not a good choice.

 

[Tavernade]

Superman is an impervious sentient being with x-ray vision and super hearing, I don't really understand how drone strike metaphors actually work with him unless you remove everything likeable about the character. He's also not supposed to kill anyone. He doesn't have to kill anyone. He could zoom in, find the target, then fly them away to jail without injuring anyone. The optics you can jump on is 'Superman corrupted by the reality of America' where maybe the people he's grabbing for the government aren't actually terrorists, or maybe the people giving him the intel are doing far worse and how dare he not deal with them instead.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Release the Snyder Cut of BvS

 

[Rayman not Ray]

Everyone who thinks Superman is boring should go read a Superman comic. And no, not one of the ones that's a self-conscious response to people's criticism of the character like What's so Funny About Truth Justice and the American Way or Injustice or whatever. Just a straight forward good Superman story. Pick any era. How about that goofy silver age story where he turns into a lion? Or All Star Superman? Superman Smashes the Klan?

 

[Dalek]

Release the Snyder Cut of BvS

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Keep releasing cuts one right after the other until the movie is slightly better than it's current awful state.

I'm so happy we're done with this Synderverse nonsense. Let's get some real movies in this universe for a change, please.

I don't have a problem with a different interpretation of characters. My issue is most of Zack Snyder's films are made up of good ideas executed badly.

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Exactly. It's fine to do a different interpretation if it's an Elseworlds project. But for your mainline films at least try to make the characters resemble what made them beloved and successful in the first place.

 

[Buckle]

Agreed. So many people are obsessed with subverting or complicating a pretty damn simple hero, they forgot how he usually functions.

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Its been mentioned before but I think the contrast between MCU Cap and DCEU Superman really shows how easily Snyder fucks up what should be an easy homerun.

Marvel's depiction of Captain America is perfect, he's just Captain America. Pure heroism and hope, iconic.

They don't feel obsessed to spend two fucking hours trying to deconstruct him or turn him into a tortured asshole deprived of the qualities that have made a character like this endure for decades upon decades.

 

[RedVejigante]

Glanced over the title and initially read it as; "BvS writer tells us all that's wrong with DCAU" and nearly blew a blood vessel.

 

[Dalek]

Its been mentioned before but I think the contrast between MCU Cap and DCEU Superman really shows how easily Snyder fucks up what should be an easy homerun.

Marvel's depiction of Captain America is perfect, he's just Captain America. Pure heroism and hope, iconic.

They don't feel obsessed to spend two fucking hours trying to deconstruct him or turn him into a tortured asshole.

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Snyder is the type of guy who would read Mark Millar's The Ultimates and said "Now THIS is my Captain America!!"

 

[Zedelima]

The problem is that is way too serious and dark
When people goes to see Superman on the movies, they expect something happy and positive.
Same with cap america (it was the right tone for him and something similar would be perfect to supes)
We got a hero that looks like a robot, moves like a robot and you cant fell a lot of simpathy with him.
Now i think they almost nailed batman

 

[imbarkus]

I was in yesterday's thread.

Chris Terrio Wrecks the Internet would have been a better article title, turns out.

For what it's worth, my thoughts are that BvS makes a better Batman story than it does a Superman story, by far.
But it's not Chris Terrio's or Zack Snyder's fault WB was in an all-fired-up get-us-those-Avengers-billlions scheduling hurry.

We needed that second Superman movie.

 

[lorddarkflare]

I think it is fine to want to have complex and gritty takes on classic characters, but maybe produce a recognizable version of them first?

 

[Parch]

Snyder is the type of guy who would read Mark Millar's The Ultimates and said "Now THIS is my Captain America!!"

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Exactly the bad Cap I thought of. 99% of Captain America is the iconic hero and hope version, but there's always a writer who does something different. Nothing wrong with that. It's good mix up. But when you're making a movie, it's not a good idea to use the 1% version and ignore the 99% version of the character.

 

[smashballTaz]

Another gem in this interview thats not on the writer but on WB



WB wanted the movie to end with Batman learning nothing

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Wow the higher-ups at Warner Brothers really seem to be TERRIBLE at knowing how to tell a good story. It's almost as if they have got really lucky that they happened to have employed directors and writers that have succeeded under them despite their attempts at sabotage.

 

[Infcabbage]

People don't really want to focus on the human side of Superman's character or what his impact has on global politics do they, despite that being a pretty important part of the character for decades. JLU in the DCAU even had pretty big sections of its plot dedicated to these concepts, but as soon as you put those types of storylines on the big screen it's suddenly sacrilege, because we just want to see the big blue boyscout who can do no wrong, and not want to think what it must be like to be a Superman in a world of cardboard, whose people either hate you or revere you as a god, while you're just trying to do the right thing and be accepted as a person.

 

[greengr]

Exactly the bad Cap I thought of. 99% of Captain America is the iconic hero and hope version, but there's always a writer who does something different. Nothing wrong with that. It's good mix up. But when you're making a movie, it's not a good idea to use the 1% version and ignore the 99% version of the character.

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I have seen comparisons between Supes and Captain America itt,but even in Winter Soldier in the beginning when Cap was basically a black ops operative or a "US Agent"(wink wink) he did what he thought was right,questioned his orders from his superiors and when he saw things were morally wrong from his perspective he stood his ground.

 

[Deleted member 10560]

People don't really want to focus on the human side of Superman's character or what his impact has on global politics do they, despite that being a pretty important part of the character for decades. JLU in the DCAU even had pretty big sections of its plot dedicated to these concepts, but as soon as you put those types of storylines on the big screen it's suddenly sacrilege, because we just want to see the big blue boyscout who can do no wrong, and not want to think what it must be like to be a Superman in a world of cardboard, whose people either hate you or revere you as a god, while you're just trying to do the right thing and be accepted as a person.

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This describes my thoughts exactly.

 

[Khanimus]

I was in yesterday's thread.

Chris Terrio Wrecks the Internet would have been a better article title, turns out.

For what it's worth, my thoughts are that BvS makes a better Batman story than it does a Superman story, by far.
But it's not Chris Terrio's or Zack Snyder's fault WB was in an all-fired-up get-us-those-Avengers-billlions scheduling hurry.

We needed that second Superman movie.

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I think it's perfectly reasonable for the follow-up movie to MoS to be Batman's perspective as an on-the-ground witness, and basically humanity's fury against a terrifying event. Bruce running into the dust cloud as people run away is still an incredible moment.

But BvS doesn't give the time to develop these characters as people. We don't get insight into what noble intentions Batman fell from, instead he's just a violent asshole. We don't get insight into why Superman continues to do this or what he believes himself to be. Instead, everyone else gets to monologue about what Superman means and he sits there looking sad until he needs to threaten to kill someone. And both characters have to be these easily manipulated rubes because the plot demands they fight for the dumbest reasons.

 

[BWoog]

Ah yes, the truly brilliant moment where Superman is framed for murder thanks to BULLET WOUNDS!!

 

[excelsiorlef]

It seems some people just want Superman to be the Boy Scout that does no wrong and saves the day. I mean neither way is wrong but it's crazy how some people hate the idea that he's not perfect

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I think there's a genuine desire for a wholesome hero.

 

[Khanimus]

I think there's a genuine desire for a wholesome hero.

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And it's not like you can't have "wholesome hero Superman" in a complicated world. Hence the Superman & Lois show on TV right now.

 

[Deleted member 10560]

Ah yes, the truly brilliant moment where Superman is framed for murder thanks to BULLET WOUNDS!!

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No. Luther's men piled them up and took a flame thrower to the bodies to make it look like Superman burned them up.

 

[Sanka]

No idea what the movie actually does with it. But something that looks critical at the rather conservative genre that are superheroes sounds interesting to me in isolation.

 

[imbarkus]

Ah yes, the truly brilliant moment where Superman is framed for murder thanks to BULLET WOUNDS!!

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The real vexing thing about this that LexCorp laser guns would have both made more sense AND been more PG-13 friendly.

Of course, without the Ultimate Edition cut you don't even see the bodies burned after being shot...

 

[BWoog]

No. Luther's men piled them up and took a flame thrower to the bodies to make it look like Superman burned them up.

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Yes. After shooting them.

 

[Khanimus]

No idea what the movie actually does with it. But something that looks critical at the rather conservative genre that are superheroes sounds interesting to me in isolation.

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but it still needs to work in execution

 

[Kazoku_]

Superman is literally an american icon who intervenes from the sky it's a really simple metaphor and one that comics have made multiple times? Even putting the specifics drones aside, superheroes as a metaphor for american state power is entrenched in the genre and has been for decades. This isn't a ridiculous thing to say.

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I'm just gonna post this and leave. Snyder's/Terrio's take on Superman is irresponsible and they got the response they deserved.

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[Deleted member 10560]

Yes. After shooting them.

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I don't think the narrative was worried about forensics. Lol. Come on now.

 

[Buckle]

I think there's a genuine desire for a wholesome hero.

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I fundamentally disagree.

In the bleak dark times we live in, we don't need escapism or heroes to inspire us, we need edgelord Superman and Batman out there abusing their power, snapping necks, shooting guns and stabbing people on the big screen.

What we really need is to just strip away the boring stuff and just make superheroes as miserable as everything else.

 

[RedVejigante]

It seems some people just want Superman to be the Boy Scout that does no wrong and saves the day. I mean neither way is wrong but it's crazy how some people hate the idea that he's not perfect

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Personally I've got no problem with a character like Superman dealing with difficult issues and showing his shortcomings. But you need to narratively build up to that in order to show a contrast and conflict. Having the very first Superman movie of a new franchise start with his killing of Zod does nothing but establish that he's okay with killing, right out of the gate. And, on another level, popular media is absolutely drowning in protagonists who are murderous anti-heroes, I feel like their should be room for stories about heroes who are hopeful and optimistic. And what is Superman if not that?

 

[Deleted member 10560]

I'm just gonna post this and leave. Snyder's/Terrio's take on Superman is irresponsible and they got the response they deserved.

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The Batman side of this is pretty much Bruce's speech at the end of BvS, talking to Diana at the cemetery. ZSJL then shows how Superman inspired Bruce to have hope again after his 'Frank Miller's stage. It took time but it was getting there.

 

[Parch]

I've always wondered just how much input DC comics has in the movies. Stan Lee was an executive producer and other Marvel creators were heavily involved in the MCU. If a filmmaker said he wanted to make a main hero character into a killer douchebag, Marvel would never allow it.

 

[Dalek]

I'm just gonna post this and leave. Snyder's/Terrio's take on Superman is irresponsible and they got the response they deserved.

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You know I wasn't a fan of Tom King's plodding run on Batman-but this particular story was masterful.