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Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,923
Canada
Re-reading the first issue:

I wonder if the Joker flashback on page eight is a flashback to Batman #1. It kinda looks like a construction site, and Joker's wearing basically the same outfit and just shooting Batman with a regular gun. Joker also looks really serious.

Criminal's pose on 32 as he's introduced is also directly out of Batman #1:

Batman+3.JPG


All the Jokers also meet up at an old run-down house, which (coincidentally?) is where Robin tracks Joker back to in Batman #1.
 

B.K.

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,021
I remember hearing about this years ago, but no one ever mentioning it again. I've occasionally wondered if they ever did anything with it.
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,522
Really enjoyed the first issue.

So given that they establish each of the Bat Family has an issue/connection with each Joker, they are definitely going to reveal Criminal Joker has a connection to Thomas & Martha's deaths, right? Bringing that up in the start seemed pretty deliberate.
 

Deleted member 6173

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,088
I hope Joe Chill doesn't turn out to be Joker or anyone in particular. I like the idea of Bruce's parents dying due to a random act of violence by a nobody. Now it seems Batman's origin is forever tied to Joker.
 

blanton

alt account
Banned
Jul 28, 2020
1,576
Really enjoyed the first issue.

So given that they establish each of the Bat Family has an issue/connection with each Joker, they are definitely going to reveal Criminal Joker has a connection to Thomas & Martha's deaths, right? Bringing that up in the start seemed pretty deliberate.
The Ace Chemical incident with the Red Hood was well after the Waynes' deaths, so I don't see that timeline working out. I couldn't see Johns retconning Joe Chill's involvement in any way since he was the one to restore him to continuity in Infinite Crisis.

I COULD see Criminal Joker going after Joe Chill (who was said to be locked up in Arkham) due to Criminal's fascination with organized crime and powerful families in Gotham. That would be a very personal way to go after Bruce since the other two are focused on Barbara and Jason.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,923
Canada
The Ace Chemical incident with the Red Hood was well after the Waynes' deaths, so I don't see that timeline working out. I couldn't see Johns retconning Joe Chill's involvement in any way since he was the one to restore him to continuity in Infinite Crisis.

I COULD see Criminal Joker going after Joe Chill (who was said to be locked up in Arkham) due to Criminal's fascination with organized crime and powerful families in Gotham. That would be a very personal way to go after Bruce since the other two are focused on Barbara and Jason.

Criminal's origin isn't necessarily Red Hood, though. I'm very interested to see how things play out, because as far as I'm aware Criminal as he's portrayed here and in the earliest Batman stories isn't even canon anymore.

It depends on how they're handling canon - are they sticking to the current canon timeline, or doing a weird meta thing? We the audience understand that Criminal is a personification of the earliest Joker appearances, but does Batman still have those experiences?
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,909
Criminal's origin isn't necessarily Red Hood, though. I'm very interested to see how things play out, because as far as I'm aware Criminal as he's portrayed here and in the earliest Batman stories isn't even canon anymore.

It depends on how they're handling canon - are they sticking to the current canon timeline, or doing a weird meta thing? We the audience understand that Criminal is a personification of the earliest Joker appearances, but does Batman still have those experiences?

While Black Label does indicate it's possible outside continuity, the revelation of The Three Jokers occurred during Darkseid War, so I'm sure he's tying it to existing DCU canon/timeline.

also on a side note-Jason Fabok is a god. This art is so good.
 
OP
OP
Oct 27, 2017
5,494
While Black Label does indicate it's possible outside continuity, the revelation of The Three Jokers occurred during Darkseid War, so I'm sure he's tying it to existing DCU canon/timeline.

also on a side note-Jason Fabok is a god. This art is so good.

They've actually dropped the references to Darkseid War. The issue begins with the Bat-family realizing the Joker was apparently in three places at the same time. That shouldn't have been a surprise if Batman already knew about it from what the Mobius Chair told him. It's probably due to the large amount of time since Darkseid War (4 years!), so they wanted to make sure that everyone could read the story without having to go back to that arc.

The book is not strictly set "in" continuity, but it's not outside of it either. It's a story that could have happened recently or shortly after Joker War (depending on how that ends), but there's nothing that explicitly ties it to any specific timeframe. According to Fabok, Three Jokers may be in-continuity if other writers decide to reference it down the road. If not, it can stay as a one-off story with no actual bearing on the continuity of the line.

Edit: OK, I've been thinking about this issue and its connection to The Killing Joke. Spoilers follow:

ljcwsnxel8j51.jpg


There are a ton of references to The Killing Joke.

The layout and composition of the story is very reminiscent of TKJ's (many pages with 9 panels, some with a similar layout that is broken by a larger panel).

When Gordon et al are discussing how can there be three Jokers, it's mentioned that his latest escape from Arkham involved a body double painted white... just like the one Batman speaks to in TKJ.

These two dudes are exactly like the ones who get the failed comedian to act as the Red Hood in TKJ. And, of course, the third man is exactly like the failed comedian in TKJ...
 
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vaderise

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,907
Antalya / Turkey
I found first issue kind of meh. Art was really good but the issue was kind of uninterestin despite the over the top premise.
Regarding the modern Joker stories:

- Death of the Family / Endgame = The Killing Joke Joker aka Comedian
- The Joker War = Clown or Comedian? Clown seems more possible but timeline is a huge question mark in this case.
- War of Jokes and Riddles = Definitely The Criminal since this one is a very serious Joker and story takes place in Batman's early years.

The question is if the Comedian is the psychopathic modern Joker (who is also the TKJ Joker thus making him the most iconic and terrifying one) what the other two were up to while Comedian was active.

However, despite the intrigue if Doomsday Clock is anything to go by, we won't get satisfying answers...
 

Tornak

Member
Feb 7, 2018
8,393
The art is obviously amazing, Fabok is a beast.

I don't know if this will carry over (I think it won't matter that much as I say in the spoiler), but I hope Jason's character is affected by this and whoever writes him from now on (we're finally free from Lobdell hell, even if it were only for the last two issues) takes clues from his voice in this.

And also the design, surely, this is one of his best looks so far, although I don't love the "R" (an "RH" would be better if it's necessary, he's moved on from being Robin, even if the outfit is clearly inspired by those years).
I agree with people saying we'll probably have only one Joker standing when everything's said and done, which in turn would make it easy for this mini-series to stand as non-contradictory in the future, really. I wonder if it'll be the New 52 one the one that remains, considering that the Criminal being the survivor would mean that people writing Joker would have to change the way he's usually portrayed nowadays. Unless the Criminal becomes more modern Joker-like for whatever reason by the end of this.

A good thing that could come out of this being followed is Jason's revenge: whether or not it is positive for him in the long run, at least he can move on and, while obviously still shaped by his death, he can free himself from this somewhat. Also, Barbara, who I bet is going to kill another one even if accidentally or whatever. It's not like she didn't want this outcome (loved that scene after intentionally missing the Batarang throw).
The bad thing about this story being acknowledged by future writers? Well, it answers questions nobody was really asking (trying to rationalize decades of ever-changing fiction by a plethora of different authors) and making Joker's backstory too detailed and convoluted for my tastes.

Whatever the case, I genuinely loved this one and I'm excited for the remaining issues.
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,404
How many issues is this set for? Assuming it sticks the landing, I'll pick up the TPB
 

Legacy

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,704
Reaaaally looking forward how they are going to explain this one.

Same, I don't how the world's greatest detective could not tell he was fighting against three different people. I mean, did they all fight exactly the same. Mannerisms?

He should have been able to have seen differences

EDIT:
So Batman could have had the knowledge to cure cancer and chose to know who killed his mommy?

Oh shit, yeah!
 

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,830
Why do I get the feeling that

Joe Chill is going to become a Joker ?
 
OP
OP
Oct 27, 2017
5,494
Why do I get the feeling that

Joe Chill is going to become a Joker ?

Yep... The only glimmer of hope I have is that

it's mentioned that he's serving a life sentence in Blackgate. So, hopefully, it means he's being accounted for. But, then again, if he's The Criminal, then he could be orchestrating everything from prison... ugh.

OK, another thought about The Criminal:

If, as we're led to believe, he's the "original" Joker, the one that came first... where did he come from? What's his origin? The constant references to The Killing Joke point at The Clown being the one that fell in the vat. So what about the Comedian and the Criminal? What if... they all fell into the vat? That's why there are three men and they are all dressed as The Red Hood.

I only wish they had used different names for The Comedian and The Clown. They are not very different visually to begin with, and the names are too similar IMO. It'd have been better to call them The Clown/The Comedian and The Maniac or something like that.
 

Osu 16 Bit

QA Lead at NetherRealm Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,923
Chicago, IL
Enjoyed the book but hard to get over how weird this all is. This story is years late in answering a question...but in a random different continuity and not the continuity the question was originally raised in. Because this Batman isn't the same who asked the chair and knows there's 3. Which means in the main continuity the mystery will presumably never be solved?
 

Memento Mori

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,865
Enjoyed the book but hard to get over how weird this all is. This story is years late in answering a question...but in a random different continuity and not the continuity the question was originally raised in. Because this Batman isn't the same who asked the chair and knows there's 3. Which means in the main continuity the mystery will presumably never be solved?
Just because this doesn't explicitly reference Darkseid War doesn't mean it's not in continuity. It would have to be set a while ago anyway as Alfred is alive.
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,160
Enjoyed the book but hard to get over how weird this all is. This story is years late in answering a question...but in a random different continuity and not the continuity the question was originally raised in. Because this Batman isn't the same who asked the chair and knows there's 3. Which means in the main continuity the mystery will presumably never be solved?
If people like the book It's canon that's what Geoff Johns said but they don't mention the chair thing because it's been years since then and people probably forgot about that

The book is written to be standalone it can take place whenever and i bet whatever joker is left at the end would be the "new" Joker but won't be too different from current joker so writers don't have to really acknowledge it and can pretend it's the same joker and not write any different if they don't feel like it

Its like how KillingJoke wasn't supposed to be canon that's why they even allow Moore to cripple Batgirl (Moore said if he knew it would be canon he would have given her better treatment) until everyone liked it so it's canon now
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,091
Its like how KillingJoke wasn't supposed to be canon that's why they even allow Moore to cripple Batgirl (Moore said if he knew it would be canon he would have given her better treatment) until everyone liked it so it's canon now
She wasn't Batgirl at the time. Barbara had retired more than a year before Killing Joke.
 

Sargerus

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,830
Marvel has nothing on DC when it comes to continuity issues, jfc.
 

dusan

Member
Aug 2, 2020
5,384
It was a normal entering story, but it gave me great feeling about future issues and it ends in an awesome point. Can't wait to see more.

Also that Fabok art is incredible. One of the best looking comics ever made.
 

Osu 16 Bit

QA Lead at NetherRealm Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,923
Chicago, IL
Just because this doesn't explicitly reference Darkseid War doesn't mean it's not in continuity. It would have to be set a while ago anyway as Alfred is alive.


Yeah but he doesn't mention or seem to be aware there's 3. Which means this must take place before the chair, so why would he be surprised with what the chair said?
 

caliph95

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,160
Yeah but he doesn't mention or seem to be aware there's 3. Which means this must take place before the chair, so why would he be surprised with what the chair said?
Considering Batgirl costume it has to be after and he wouldn't be surprised about 3 jokers answer if he already fought him but let's pretend batman either forgot about it or Dr Manhattan erased his memory after fixing continuity or he lost the knowledge after leaving the chair or whatever

Real answer book is supposed to be standalone and accessible so you have to ignore Darkseid war and pretend it's set whenever it makes sense to you
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,649
I thought this was already known, I don't have a lot of comics but I remember this being a thing around Death of the Family
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,603
Hasn't DC rebooted several times since the golden and silver ages? How is any of that still canon?
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,165
Hasn't DC rebooted several times since the golden and silver ages? How is any of that still canon?
Some stuff persists between reboots but it's always nebulous what. I guess rule of thumb is if no one has explicitly said it didn't happen it probably happened.

But also for all intents and purposes three Jokers is out of continuity.
 
OP
OP
Oct 27, 2017
5,494
Just assume this story happens "some time". Don't try to place this anywhere specific in the continuity, because there are no concrete pointers to anything in particular. For example:

- Bruce's body is all scared. That'd mean it has to be placed before Superheavy, where he "reset" his body. Or very late after that, with enough time for Bruce to pick up all his scars again.
- There's also a panel with Bane breaking his back, and Bruce is wearing his classic yellow oval suit.
- Batman's uniform is very similar to that of the Batman Inc. era, sans penile armor.
- Batgirl's uniform is very similar to her first New 52 uniform.
- Red Hood's uniform is completely new, as far as I can tell. He's not using the "face mask" design, so it points at this taking place before Heroes in Crisis and his "Red Hood: Outlaw" phase. I love this costume, though!
- Alfred is alive, so the story has to be set in the past of current events (or in 2022, let's be honest...).
- The Joker... The Jokers all have their faces, so this must be either before Batman #1 (New 52) or after Superheavy, when he gets his face back. But before Metal, because he doesn't have that millenial haircut.
- In the second page we can see three classic costumes: Batgirl's original Silver Age blue uniform, Robin's original Golden Age costume and (what I think is) Batman's TKJ costume (based on the belt and the bat logo). Whether these uniforms exist in the current continuity is... nebulous, at best. Robin's is the most problematic, since Dick has been shown to have used his New 52 Robin uniform since the beginning, though lately the OG uniform has been appearing more and more.
- And more...

So, taken individually, these clues could point to different moments of the continuity... but together they are a clusterfuck. So just assume this story "happened" somewhere between Jason coming back to life and Barbara being able to walk again and "today".

Fun fact: Gaggy's latest appearence had been in Gotham City Sirens, whose place in continuity is tenous. Catwoman, Harley and Ivy have some sort of shared history (the three together, I mean), but nothing as deep as GSC.

She wasn't Batgirl at the time. Barbara had retired more than a year before Killing Joke.

Was it actually more than a year? Batgirl Special #1 was published just a couple days before The Killing Joke and was meant to be "the last Batgirl story". It has a mishmash of Silver and Bronze Age elements to it, but it tries to give the character a new status quo that facilitates her, eh, fate in TKJ.

I thought this was already known, I don't have a lot of comics but I remember this being a thing around Death of the Family

What do you mean by "this"? The idea has been around since Darkseid War, and it was briefly mentioned in The Button, but nothing else.
 

Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,923
Canada
I'm not so much concerned if the book is in-continuity with Darkseid War, or if it's canon going forward, but more what exactly is canon for the characters within it.

As someone outside of Batman's timeline, I'm aware that Batman has been in existence for eighty years and that Joker was portrayed in numerous ways. In my head, Criminal is probably first appearance Joker (we'll say 1940-1954, when the Comics Code Authority was implemented, necessitating him getting goofier), Clown is probably 1954-1988 (Until Death in the Family) and Comedian is probably 1988-Present (Killing Joke on). There's a bit of weirdness in that 1988 date, as Killing Joke was actually published before Death in the Family, but I think the Three Jokers acknowledges that blurriness with the Comedian and Clown's dialog when they first meet up.

That's all stuff that I, a person familiar with Batman's real-world publication history am aware of. But.. what actually happened for the Batman portrayed here?

Death in the Family and Killing Joke clearly happened here. But was there a period in Batman's current timeline where Joker acted like The Criminal? I think his current continuity just started with him being kooky. There was The War of Jokes and Riddles, but that was specifically because Joker couldn't laugh anymore and not his initial starting point.

I suppose it could be the case that they're specifically not chronological - they're just three different aspects of The Joker that tag in as necessary for the story they want to tell. Them attempting to create "a better Joker" could be seen as them trying to find a way to tell new stories.

I really wonder how grounded the explanation for what's going on is. Is it going to end up being "Yeah, they're clones", or "Batman and Joker, avatars of order and chaos, square off in the collective unconsciousness, all their various historical permutations getting in a big metaphysical brawl in a two-page spread at the end of the book"?

I'm not sure if Johns is prone to the latter, so it's probably going to end up being more grounded. Given what Johns did to Flash's origin story, though, I really can't shake the feeling we're getting Chill as Joker. Possibly Criminal-is-Chill, but the book also specifically states that Joe Chill is alive and in prison, and Criminal says they're going to do a "casting call" for a "more meaningful" Joker. Jokerizing Chill would fit the bill, I think. Maybe a regretful Joker?
 

TheRightDeal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,591
The art was absolutely stellar, shout out to the Batgirl and Red Hood costumes, sleek and poppy without being overdesigned.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,372
Hasn't DC rebooted several times since the golden and silver ages? How is any of that still canon?

Batman never fully rebooted. Both the Post-Crisis and New 52 reboots carried past continuity even if changing some stuff. Very recently in King's Batman run there was Bruce and Selina remembering their first meeting differently (the original one or the Post-Crisis one).
 

Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
Some thoughts on issue #1, after having read it a couple of times. I'm spoiler-tagging them.

On the whole, I'm rather disappointed. This is an event that was first teased four years ago, as a major revelation that turns absolutely everything we know about the Joker and Batman (and their relationship over the years) on its head. The idea of there being three Jokers and Batman not knowing about it is a huge deal.

Ever since, there's been no build-up to this story, and there have been a ton of other Joker-related events happening in the DC universe in the interim. Now, four years later, we're finally getting this story as part of the Black imprint, but we're being asked to believe that Bruce has done absolutely nothing over the last few years to get to the bottom of the fact that there are suddenly three Jokers. It feels... highly implausible.

This is Batman--a man that typically thinks of everything--finding out that there's more than one Joker. It's highly improbable that he wouldn't drop everything else and focus his skills squarely on figuring out why there are three Jokers. Were there always three? Is it a recent development? Why has the Bat-family never noticed it before? Are they split personalities, or three separate physical manifestations? When you a drop a bomb like "there are three Jokers," that's the sort of story you'd expect as a follow-up.

Instead, Three Jokers does none of that. There's no build-up, no several weeks of Bruce down his cave, brooding over how this is possible. No deductive reasoning. Instead, all three Jokers (who all seem to know exactly what's going on, and why there are three) conveniently commit a crime on the same night and begin signaling to Batman that there's more than one. Geoff Johns' writing doesn't make it clear whether Bruce already knows this from the Mobius chair, or if the events of this book are divorced from that entire incident four years ago.

At one point, he tells Jason: "That was before there was more than one." Does he know because of the chair? Or is he putting it together on-the-fly? The story doesn't clarify.

Also... Jason straight-up kills (or attempts to kill) a bunch of people throughout the story. Bruce doesn't seem to have a big problem with it. And towards the end, he leaves Jason Todd, with a gun, alone with the Joker. Sure, Barbara's there, but if Jason wants to kill the Joker, nobody's going to be able to stop him. It just... doesn't add up. Why would Bruce do that?

That's part of the problem. The other part is that we get yet another flashback to the death of Bruce's parents. Why? What place does that event have in this story? We don't need pages wasted on the origin story. Nobody's going to buy this as their first Batman book and not know who Batman is. Jason and Barbara's flashbacks I can understand--those events are tied to this story--but Bruce's origin has no place in it. There's no reason he should even be thinking back to it on that particular night. It felt like out-of-place filler material.

Again, it's just a disappointing turn of events after this story being hyped up for four years. It feels meaningless--like a partial re-tread of old material with new events spinning out of them, that make no sense. And it requires you to make too many leaps of logic and basically forget everything you know about how smart Batman is supposed to be, and how long of a relationship he and the Joker have had.
 
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Billfisto

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,923
Canada
That's part of the problem. The other part is that we get yet another flashback to the death of Bruce's parents. Why? What place does that event have in this story? We don't need pages wasted on the origin story. Nobody's going to buy this as their first Batman book and not know who Batman is. Jason and Barbara's flashbacks I can understand--those events are tied to this story--but Bruce's origin has no place in it. There's no reason he should even be thinking back to it on that particular night.

That's why I really think we're getting Chill-As-Joker (or, less likely, Bruce-As-Joker). The amount of time spent on Chill and the way it's structured makes no sense otherwise.

  1. Present-Day Bruce
  2. Flashback to Joe Chill killing his parents.
  3. Tagline - "The Criminal".

  1. Present-Day Barbara
  2. Flashback to Joker shooting her in Killing Joke.
  3. Tagline - "The Comedian".

  1. Present-Day Jason
  2. Flashback to Joker going hogwild with a crowbar in Death in the Family.
  3. Tagline - "The Clown".

It's totally weird to follow the exact same structure, in a book specifically about three Jokers, but the initial triplet in the triptych doesn't include The Joker, let alone the one specifically named.
 
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Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
That's why I really think we're getting Chill-As-Joker (or, less likely, Bruce-As-Joker). The amount of time spent on Chill and the way it's structured makes no sense otherwise.

  1. Present-Day Bruce
  2. Flashback to Joe Chill killing his parents.
  3. Tagline - "The Criminal".

  1. Present-Day Barbara
  2. Flashback to Joker shooting her in Killing Joke.
  3. Tagline - "The Comedian".

  1. Present-Day Jason
  2. Flashback to Joker going hogwild with a crowbar in Death in the Family.
  3. Tagline - "The Clown".

It's totally weird to follow the exact same structure, in a book specifically about three Jokers, but the initial triplet in the triptych doesn't include The Joker, let alone the one specifically named.

I suspect you're right--or that they're deliberately leaving that trail of breadcrumbs for us to follow, while the actual solution lies elsewhere. I wouldn't say either of those is great, though. This is a monthly mini-series, and you can't have that wide a gap between events (with so much other stuff happening in between) and expect it to feel impactful in some sort of poetic way to the reader. Gah, I don't even know any more. This has all been so disheartening after four years DC talking it up.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,262
It seems every 3-4 years I end up reading something Johns out of curiosity. Art was alright I guess but not my style, Batgirl looked super weird. Story was extremely dull as par for the course.